Pay, Perks and Privileges of Politicians

Hillel

There's been a lot of debate on the Public Sector vs Private Sector in this forum. However, it would appear that the pay, perks and privileges of being a politician are being largely ignored.

We are all being asked to tighten our belts. However, how credible are Brian and his team when telling us this? Is his own remuneration reasonable and appropriate? That of cabinet members? TD's and Senators? Opinions and hard information, please.

The_Minister

It's not being ignored allot of them took a 10% pay cut, have had their expenses restricted, and apparently they are going to lose more soon.

Hillel

The_Minister wrote: »

It's not being ignored allot of them took a 10% pay cut, have had their expenses restricted, and apparently they are going to lose more soon.

But that is only their basic pay. What is that pay scale and what are all the various perks and privileges not available to us ordinary mortals?

I have no inside knowledge on this one but here is some info from here, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5488744.ece ,to start the list going.

€100,190 basic pay. Can anyone confirm the tax treatment of this?
€5,500 a year expenses unreceipted/untaxed.
€61.53 daily “subsistence”, untaxed.
€145.45, overnight allowance, unreceipted/untaxed.
€2,745.17 to €8,782.78 constituency travel allowance, untaxed.
€8,888.17 grant for setting up a constituency office, untaxed.
€8,888.17-twice yearly maintenance allowance for constituency office unreceipted/untaxed
€8,888.17-twice yearly secretarial allowance for constituency office unreceipted/untaxed

Each TD will cost the taxpayer more than €276,000 this year: an average of €110,000 in salary, €67,600 in expenses and €98,500 for secretaries.
They must be very competent secretaries!

And this in the plain vanilla TD, so to speak, with no top-ups from the many paid positions available.
All but 27 TDs get a minimum of €6,380 a year extra. (19 get €20,023)

Then there is the €41,152 Beverly Flynn allowance for TDs who don't have party support. unreceipted/untaxed.


Sorry, The_Minister, but suddenly that 10% cut is beginning to look somewhat paltry.

This is not the full picture, there are also pension schemes that make the normal Public Sector Pensions look like the basic Old Age Pension.
What else is out there that we don't know about? What are the typical receipted expenses for a TD? How many have lucrative sidelines?
What level of "Corporate Hospitality" can they accept, before they must register it?

It is simply a disgrace that public sector workers on the minimum wage are being asked to take a pay cut when TDs are getting this sort of money.
(I know, I know, its a "levy", sorry.)
Brian Cowen urgently needs to take control of his own backyard.
How can he have any credibility when he is letting this go on unchecked.
Do you agree that this is something to keep in an intense spotlight on?
(Or am I alone in thinking this must be stopped :mad:)

K-9

Hillel wrote: »

€61.53 daily “subsistence”, untaxed.
€145.45, overnight allowance, unreceipted/untaxed.

Just on those 2, what are the Civil Service rates?

nesf

There's nothing like unvouched expenses to bring Opposition and Government together on a vote.

ednwireland

local papers here reckon mary coughlan takes home €450,000 a year now ok she employs 2 staff in her constituency office but even so its horrendous. i'll start taking notice of the gov ask me to sacrificxe something when they start.
i dont think thta included their car and driver
like you say their 10% looks pretty paltry in comparison ( i believe that was to salary only, their pension contributions stay at the higher rate)
there is no way they justify the highest salaries on any leader in europe.
dont forget their salaries are linked to the higher grades in the public sector so what are those guys on ?
and what about the 600,000 pay off to the financial regulator how has he earned that ?
i'm away a lot at the moment overnight i dont get anything apart from my hotel paid for and a dinner thats it

grahamo

K-9 wrote: »

Just on those 2, what are the Civil Service rates?

Subsistence is about 15 euro for 5+ hours and around 30 euro for 10+ hours for public sector. Don't know about overnight allowance.

grahamo

Is it true TD's pensions are payable as soon as they leave office? They don't have to wait till retirement age?

The_Minister

grahamo wrote: »

Is it true TD's pensions are payable as soon as they leave office? They don't have to wait till retirement age?

AFAIK Enda Kenny is on a pension atm.

The PDs tried to put a stop to that a while after they were founded, but the other parties banded together to vote it down.

helimachoptor

The_Minister wrote: »

AFAIK Enda Kenny is on a pension atm.

The PDs tried to put a stop to that a while after they were founded, but the other parties banded together to vote it down.

Did he leave office and then come back? so when he leaves again his pension will be increased??

Madness

markpb

The_Minister wrote: »

llot of them took a 10% pay cut

Someone posted here last week suggesting that the 10% cut was only on the ministerial top-up of their TD salary so, in effect, it's only on a small part of their overall salary. Does anyone know if that's true?

Phototoxin

There's been a lot of debate on the Public Sector vs Private Sector in this forum. However, it would appear that the pay, perks and privileges of being a politician are being largely ignored.

We are all being asked to tighten our belts. However, how credible are Brian and his team when telling us this? Is his own remuneration reasonable and appropriate? That of cabinet members? TD's and Senators? Opinions and hard information, please.

Pretty much... they make their own rules in effect so what do we expect.

Hillel

ednwireland wrote: »

local papers here reckon mary coughlan takes home €450,000 a year now ok she employs 2 staff in her constituency office but even so its horrendous.

There's no possible justification for someone in her position, at this time, earning so much. I've just listened to David Begg (ICTU) and Jack O'Connor (SIPTU) talking about the government being unwilling to stand up to the powerful and wealthy. How can they, when they themselves are simply creaming it off like this? (People in glass houses not throwing stones, and all that.)
Many opportunities for serious cost reductions here. Maybe the total amount might not be that big in the context of the national debt, but it would send out the message that tough sacrifices are being asked of all - including our rich and powerful politicians. However, not a squeak from the unions on this one. They appear desperate to keep on good terms with the government parties, even to the extent of damaging their own credibility.
No squeak either from Enda, Leo Varadkar, Eamon Gilmore, Joan Burton - or any of the other opposition TD's who are so vocal on other issues. When it come to their own selfish interests, differences are quickly settled and its one cosy little club at the top. Now that's something worth marching about. (Not the cosy club, the need to have substantial cuts in pay and perks for all politicians.)

BroomBurner

Hillel wrote: »

No squeak either from Enda, Leo Varadkar, Eamon Gilmore, Joan Burton - or any of the other opposition TD's who are so vocal on other issues. When it come to their own selfish interests, differences are quickly settled and its one cosy little club at the top. Now that's something worth marching about. (Not the cosy club, the need to have substantial cuts in pay and perks for all politicians.)

I read a reply from an FG TD to an email sent by a PS worker. Their suggestions on how to save money were so laughable, it was an example of why they will NEVER get in to power.

The one plan they had would be receipted expenses. You can bet anything that that would not happen if they were in power.

Another plan was to cut 5000 PS jobs. However, they didn't state how they would go about this, or from where. Just the nice round figure of 5000.

I'd be the first to stand up and say that there is dead weight all over the PS (just like there is in large private companies), however, politicians have never shown the level of common sense to ensure that we could be confident that the right people will be let go (if any). They would go by the LIFO tact, and early retirement.

No sense in confusing themselves with actually having to think about who should be let go.

thomasj

Dont forget the pension government ministers get for each department they worked in

Hillel

thomasj wrote: »

Dont forget the pension government ministers get for each department they worked in

I don't - nice little earners, and all linked to serving deputies salaries! Meanwhile, support for pupils with special needs is being cut by €7m. (These students, truly amongst the most vulnerable in our society, were already being greatly short changed. They were moved into mainstream schools, a good idea of itself, with nothing like the level of support they needed.)

Stopping this pension scam alone, and I don't mean postponing payment, would go a long way towards saving that €7 million. Not enough? Make 6-7 serving TD's, redundant. I'm sure that a constitutionally sound means of doing this could be found. Its not like the general public wouldn't support the idea.

And still not a squeak from David Begg (ICTU), Jack O'Connor (SIPTU), Peter McLoone (IMPACT),..... about excessive pay and perks in the government sector. (Feel free to add the leader of your favourite Union to the list.) I wonder, where does their salary relativities fit into all this?
Social solidarity, how are you!

Daroxtar

what about teachers like enda kenny and noel dempsey to name but a few who are still being paid as teachers on top of their TD wage, not to mention jimmy devins,jim mc daid and whatever other doctors who have kept their gp wage? plus their pensions from these jobs?
and what about the TDs and MEPs still in office but recieving state pensions?
ALL TDs expenses should be scrapped or capped at E100 a week.

Hillel

Daroxtar wrote: »

what about teachers like enda kenny and noel dempsey to name but a few who are still being paid as teachers on top of their TD wage, not to mention jimmy devins,jim mc daid and whatever other doctors who have kept their gp wage? plus their pensions from these jobs?
and what about the TDs and MEPs still in office but recieving state pensions?
ALL TDs expenses should be scrapped or capped at E100 a week.

It goes on and on and on.
The politicians are truly taking the pi$$.

nice_guy80

What about the Junior Minister who employs his WIFE, DAUGHTER and SON in his consituency offices

Now thats taking the piss

nice_guy80

Daroxtar wrote: »

what about teachers like enda kenny and noel dempsey to name but a few who are still being paid as teachers on top of their TD wage,

in fairness Kenny and Dempsey are not receiving this allowance. but the TDs are still racking up pension entitlements and also depriving two other teachers a chance to be permanent by not RESIGNING their actual teaching positions

Daroxtar

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What about the Junior Minister who employs his WIFE, DAUGHTER and SON in his consituency offices

Now thats taking the piss

name and shame please. i'll have no problem writing a nice letter for them to read. nepotism stinks.

nice_guy80

junior minister for housing. you can go figure

Daroxtar

stamp being licked right now. the bastrd. i'll be saying a few things i wouldn't be allowed to post here!!!

nice_guy80

send one to the constituency office so the wife will read it...

and also maybe on to the Irish Times? but tone that down a bit

Hillel

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What about the Junior Minister who employs his WIFE, DAUGHTER and SON in his consituency offices

Now thats taking the piss

"A total of 42 members of the Oireachtas have installed family members in secretarial and parliamentary assistant jobs, according to new figures obtained under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act. The posts are not publicly advertised and carry salaries of up to €45,000."

"Fianna Fail Sligo North Leitrim TD Eamon Scanlon employs his sister and his son. The posts carry salaries ranging from €22,000 to €45,000, as well as civil service-style pension rights. Nine of the family members also work as councillors, meaning they receive a basic wage of €16,600, plus expenses."

From Irish Independent, Tuesday August 19 2008.

mountainyman

nice_guy80 wrote: »

in fairness Kenny and Dempsey are not receiving this allowance. but the TDs are still racking up pension entitlements and also depriving two other teachers a chance to be permanent by not RESIGNING their actual teaching positions

Tony Gregory did that till the day he died. If he was a saint it must be alright.

mountainyman

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What about the Junior Minister who employs his WIFE, DAUGHTER and SON in his consituency offices

Now thats taking the piss

Tony Greogory did that so it must be OK.

thomasj

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2009/01/15/story81968.asp

TDs paid far more than MPs for less work

THE new year is just a fortnight old and many more Irish workers find themselves out of a job.

But there are 166 lucky Irish workers who haven’t returned from the holidays yet, haven’t lost their jobs and have not been docked pay... they are TDs.

In the lead-up to Christmas there was much discussion over the difference in euro and sterling prices for the same goods in the same shops.

So considering that the Irish parliamentary system is a copy of the British one, how do our TDs compare with MPs, and are we being ripped off in politics as much as we are in the shops?

In 2008, the Dáil sat for 97 days compared with 155 days for the House of Commons. The Commons sat for 19 four-day and 12 five-day weeks.

In contrast the Dáil only managed one lousy four-day week during 2008.

It must to nice for the increasing numbers of Irish workers on a three-day week to know their TDs have being doing just that on full pay for years.

Naturally, TDs will excuse their behaviour by saying they have to attend to constituency business and that rural TDs have long distances to travel.

But MPs have to attend to constituency business, too, and look at the distances that Scottish and Welsh MPs have to travel.

Also each TD has only an average of 25,500 constituents to attend to, but an MP has more than 94,000.

So if MPs sit 50% more days, have longer working weeks and shorter holidays, have nearly four times more constituents to look after and have to travel vastly longer distances, they must be on fantastic pay.

Well, an MP gets the sterling equivalent of around €70,000 compared to €105,000 for a TD; a British minister gets roughly €160,000 compared to €240,000 for an Irish minister and the Prime Minister earns €220,000 compared with €310,000 for the Taoiseach. We have a deepening financial crisis and there is much debate of late on radical cuts in public sector pay and numbers, more taxes on Irish workers and calls for patriotism as a solution.

But while TDs do less work for 50% more pay than MPs, they are just not entitled to participate in such debates and make demands on others.

So for the rest of January, I request all TDs to take a hard look at themselves in the mirror and ask if there shouldn’t be radical cuts in both the numbers and pay of Irish politicians.

As an example of how radical, perhaps politicians should be paid according to the number of days their parliament sits.

If an MP is paid €450 for each day the House of Commons sits, then a TD would have his salary cut by nearly 60% to €43,650.

Hillel

thomasj wrote: »

[Well, an MP gets the sterling equivalent of around €70,000 compared to €105,000 for a TD; a British minister gets roughly €160,000 compared to €240,000 for an Irish minister and the Prime Minister earns €220,000 compared with €310,000 for the Taoiseach. We have a deepening financial crisis and there is much debate of late on radical cuts in public sector pay and numbers, more taxes on Irish workers and calls for patriotism as a solution.

But, where's the public outcry? Where's all the Email's and telephone calls? Why are we not marching to link TD's wages to the average Industrial wage?
Why are the union leaders so silent?

DARKIZE

As I recall aren't TD salaries linked to Civil Service senior grades or something similar ? This isn't just a problem with politicians, but right across senior positions in the public service. Exhibit A; Patrick Neary being paid more than the Chairman of the Federal Reserve or Bank of England.

In general, I actually wouldn't have so much of a problem with TDs being paid a decent (ie not in excess of 100k) salary. Its all the other padding with drawing pensions while still serving, endless and unvouched expenses, committee fees etc, that really sticks it to the taxpayer.

BroomBurner

Hillel wrote: »

But, where's the public outcry? Where's all the Email's and telephone calls? Why are we not marching to link TD's wages to the average Industrial wage?
Why are the union leaders so silent?

They are talking about all of this though. How about joining in the march on the 21st of Feb so to show your outrage at the complete and utter uselessness of the government?
There's a chance for you to show your outrage and march for what you believe in.
Or is it just easier to type on a forum?

Hillel

BroomBurner wrote: »

They are talking about all of this though. How about joining in the march on the 21st of Feb so to show your outrage at the complete and utter uselessness of the government?
There's a chance for you to show your outrage and march for what you believe in.
Or is it just easier to type on a forum?

I have already explained, in this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59014943#post59014943, why I won't be joining the march.

jimmmy

BroomBurner wrote: »

Another plan was to cut 5000 PS jobs. However, they didn't state how they would go about this, or from where. Just the nice round figure of 5000.

The public service, as everyone knows, is way overstaffed for our population of only 4 to 5 million. Let 40,000 public servants go, we cannot afford to pay them their large salaries, sick pay, holidays + pensions.

Hillel

I started this thread to build up a comprehensive picture of all the Pay, Perks and Privileges available to politicians. The follow-on was to be identifying where cutbacks in this area could be legitimately targeted. Surely, cutbacks here are preferable than, say, cutbacks in Special Needs support.

Is there any interest in keeping this going or should I let the thread die?

thomasj

jimmmy wrote: »

The public service, as everyone knows, is way overstaffed for our population of only 4 to 5 million. Let 40,000 public servants go, we cannot afford to pay them their large salaries, sick pay, holidays + pensions.

originally as of the last two years it wasnt overstaffed it was badly run and now as a result of it been badly run it is overstaffed

thats not including the waste staff ministers have in their own offices amount of consultants and the overfunded tribunials we have paid for the last ten years or so not the mention the salaries of politicians and senior civil servants.

Not to mention some of those state agencies that while they were useful to the public be honest we cant afford them. With regards to the pensions situation that money will go into the banks i cant see how else they are gonna get it the original nest egg of contributions of those who were paying their pension.

On a side note ps cs before 1995 dont say their pensions those recruited 1995 onwards do. This needs to be looked at we simply cant afford it.

Hillel

This is tiresome, and off topic.

(Why does every single thread on this forum have to end up as a public sector vs. private sector debate. Yes there are issues to be debated, but not ad infinitum.)

Dannyboy83

The_Minister wrote: »

It's not being ignored allot of them took a 10% pay cut, have had their expenses restricted, and apparently they are going to lose more soon.

Excluding trips to Texas and Florida you mean?

thomasj

Article in the times 5th feb

Home » Ireland » Pension levy - fallout »

MARK HENNESSY and MARY MINIHAN

GOVERNMENT PAY: THE GOVERNMENT’s decision to impose pension levies on State employees will cost TDs nearly €10,000 a year, while Ministers will lose nearly €20,000 annually.



This drop in Ministers’ income will be in addition to the 10 per cent pay cut they have already accepted.

Speaking in the Dáil yesterday Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan said senior public servants, including some members of the Oireachtas, who had volunteered to take a salary cut could now have their full salary restored.

Their contribution to assisting the public finances could now be made through the new pension levy, he said.

However, Government Ministers had decided to continue with their 10 per cent voluntary pay cut in addition to paying the new pension contribution of 9 per cent.

“We believe that those in positions of leadership in all parts of the country should and must lead by example,” he said.

In a separate development, Independent MEP Kathy Sinnott has said she will take a 20 per cent pay cut and has written to all Irish MEPs, TDs and Senators asking them to do the same.

She has urged them to join her outside the front gates of Dáil Éireann at noon next Tuesday, when she will instruct the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas to reduce her salary.

Irish MEPs’ wages are paid by the Oireachtas at the same rate as TDs and Senators (€7,791 a month for 2008), while expenses and staff costs are covered by the European Parliament, according to a spokeswoman for the European Parliament office in Ireland.

After the upcoming European elections in June, a new statute will come into force and most MEPs will be paid by the European Parliament at a standard rate of €7,339.

Ms Sinnott said: “This month so many people are being made unemployed, they are taking 100 per cent pay cuts. I’m not looking for personal glory.”

A move by MEPs, TDs and Senators to surrender a fifth of their salaries could “hopefully take pressure off lower paid public servants” and pressure senior private executives “to catch the bug”.

In her letter, Ms Sinnott wrote: “We all know that there are difficult times ahead and I truly believe that the only way to tackle these successfully is to put ‘politicking’ and political manoeuvring aside.”

Fianna Fáil TD Michael Kennedy has called on judges to take a 10 per cent pay cut. Under the Constitution, the pay of judges cannot be reduced during their term of office and none of them accepted a reduction after the Budget.

However, Mr Kennedy said the judges could make a gift of a percentage of their salary to the State “if they wish to assist in the resolution of this economic crisis”.

“It is important now, more than ever, that everyone plays their part in leading us out of this recession and I would strongly urge our country’s judges to step up to the plate and agree on a universal 10 per cent cut within their field,” he said.

nesf

Ms Sinnott said: “This month so many people are being made unemployed, they are taking 100 per cent pay cuts. I’m not looking for personal glory.”

Yeah right, we need less of the cheap populism and more actual serious debate on what the best course of action is. Not that I'd take anything Sinnott says about the economy or the recession seriously or anything.

galwayrush

Stop rewarding failure, failure to do ones job properly should disqualify any binding contract . Fraud squad needs to be involved. Anyone who fecks up should loose all benifits and have to manage on a standard pension of 205 euro per week, just like honest hard working people have to manage on.

Hillel

At last there's some some progress in getting Oireachtas salaries reduced from their stratospheric levels.

However, there's no sign of any move on the perks and privileges.
I for one, will keep up the pressure, relentlessly.
And no, not only through boards - thats just a hobby.

I have emailed all my local TD's and spoken to two personally.

TomRooney

The_Minister wrote: »

It's not being ignored allot of them took a 10% pay cut, have had their expenses restricted, and apparently they are going to lose more soon.

Minister the fact you even attempt to defend the ludicrous rate of pay the TDs get in ireland is absolutely sickening, have you forgotten the pay rise they gave themselves last year, even with the 10 percent decrease they are still on more than they were 2 years ago, what a bloody joke.

it is only in this nation of goms that the TDs would get away with the likes of this, sure half the cabinet are on a bigger salary than President Barrack Obama and he runs the most pwerfull democracy on the planet.

this can never ever be justified under any circumstance, if the Political classes are not genuine about there desire to serve the people then they should leave office, if money is there motivation let them get a job in the private sector, the days of them having there pie and eating it should be put to an end.

to quote Padraig Pearse, Beware of the thing that is coming Beware of the risen people for they will take what you would not give them.

these corrupt self servers can not get away with it forever God`s Speed to the day when the ordinary people stop complaining and start acting.