Public sector - levey

femur61

I really can't believe the public sector can't see the country is cripplied and we need to cut back on our spending. I suppose the only see the waste done by the government or maybe they think they are being victimised. But aren't they lucky to have a job. If I had a job I wouldn't be posting on this forumat 4.20 on a Monday. Can't they stop being so selfish and see we all have to plug together. All i see are shops closing down and people, well skilled people being made redundant.

Riskymove

People only see what they want to in times like these.

"I have lost my job so others should be sacked/have pay cut etc"

That does not mean that the public service should just say "grand take a load of my money even though I have a mortgage, kids etc"

They are perfectly entitled to look to see how they might contribute in a more equitable fashion, especially those on low incomes and to negotiate the manner of implementation of the levy

Most public sector workers I know understood the need to give up the National pay award increases as the country could not sustain it but believe that the levy as proposed is too much.

If they don't like what they get paid there's nothing stopping them moving to another job.

Denis Irwin

Riskymove wrote: »

People only see what they want to in times like these.

"I have lost my job so others should be sacked/have pay cut etc"

That does not mean that the public service should just say "grand take a load of my money even though I have a mortgage, kids etc"

They are perfectly entitled to look to see how they might contribute in a more equitable fashion, especially those on low incomes and to negotiate the manner of implementation of the levy

Most public sector workers I know understood the need to give up the National pay award increases as the country could not sustain it but believe that the levy as proposed is too much.

Well said. I wonder if any of those people that are working in the top end of the private sector will be willing to forgo any bonuses they are entitled to this year. Some how I doubt it. :rolleyes:

Godge

femur61 wrote: »

I really can't believe the public sector can't see the country is cripplied and we need to cut back on our spending. I suppose the only see the waste done by the government or maybe they think they are being victimised. But aren't they lucky to have a job. If I had a job I wouldn't be posting on this forumat 4.20 on a Monday. Can't they stop being so selfish and see we all have to plug together. All i see are shops closing down and people, well skilled people being made redundant.

While public servants are taking the hit with a 7-9% pension levy, similarly paid workers in Bank of Ireland are getting a 2.5% increase. Is that the same Bank of Ireland which will be bailed out by the Government using money they have saved from public servants?

I believe the Government was right to impose the pension levy. The problem is that the pain is not being shared across the board. Some private sector workers are losing jobs, others are taking pay cuts, public servants are being hit with a pension levy while the banks, the developers, the tax exiles, the landlords and yes, bank employees are getting off scot free.

muffinob1

salonfire wrote: »

If they don't like what they get paid there's nothing stopping them moving to another job.

It's not a question of moving jobs it's about what's fair and equitable (sp?)

The 1st poster said PS workers should br grateful to have jobs, why should they most worked hard, got degrees and chose this field to work in. A statement like that suggests that people that have not been made redundant or lost their jobs deserve to lose them or should at least be taxed.

This levy has put the country's finances in further bother, a lot of the lowerr paid PS workers would be better off on unemployment benefit .... Is that really the way we want to go, make it a waste of time for people to work?

Spotnik

Considering Government pension levy is being brought in to save finances in difficult times. I can only assume that when the economy is back up and running in a more stable and recessionless environment the pension levy will be removed?

lily lou

I'm a public sector employee, after 9 years in my job I now earn just over €31,000 a year which is a lot less than most private sector employee's who have spent that long in a job. I'm not complaining, I love my job and it's what I want to do, but in order to get a mortgage I took on a 2nd job 3 years ago and after over 5 years of hard saving I managed to buy my apartment in June now that's all in jeopardy, I'm going to lose over €120 a month which effectively cancels out my second job, I understand that we need to do something to help out, but it's just too much.
I don't have a luxury life style I just get by and put a small amount of money away for emergencies which I've had to dip into twice in the last 6 months when my car broke down and when my heating broke down, the next time this happens I won't have any spare money for the repairs. I haven't been on holidays in 2 years, rarely go clothes shopping and only go out around once a month so there's very little I can cut from my budget.
Also surely these cuts are going to affect other sectors, everone whose affected by these levy's will have to cut things out of their budgets so local shops, take aways, pubs, restaurants etc are all going to lose out!!

Kimbot

Lads,

If there is a C.O. on the max of the scale earning 35,000 a year, with the tax break on the pension levy they pay approx €2200 a year extra in tax.

If you have a H.E.O. earning 48,000 a year (if my maths are right then this is 37% More than the above C.O.), with the tax break they only pay approx €2000 a year (Which is 10% less tax paid).

Its a simple case of the rich staying rich while the poor are getting poorer.

Open your eyes, people getting golden handshakes off the gov at the moment should be hung because of their actions. Instead they are treated like some form of hero!

I posted this on another thread, its not the fact we are bailing the country out that we are striking etc its the fact that someone earning 37% more than me will pay 10% less tax than me because of this levy!!

BroomBurner

Spotnik wrote: »

Considering Government pension levy is being brought in to save finances in difficult times. I can only assume that when the economy is back up and running in a more stable and recessionless environment the pension levy will be removed?

No, it's here for good.

femur61

I think the banks are to put a pay freeze on increases after bail out. I know many who have lost good jobs and many who have good jobs are curtailing their expensives. I do feel for public service workers but its a small price to pay (or a big one to some) for a job. A swiss areoplane firm is meeting all their 1200 employees this morning, sorry can't remember their name, its in north Dublin. Their fate is not in their hands.

jaggiebunnet

big deal they have to pay for their extremely well provisioned pensions where the rest of us have been paying it for years only to see the fund fall away to sh*t, my heart pumps piss for them really it does..maybe they can think about it on one of their many days of holidays they get every year, in their nice secure jobs.

really I am very upset for them.

Spotnik

Considering that this pension levy is being put in place due to hard economic times, I do believe that the public service should contribute in some way. If this levy does go ahead then I believe it should only last while deflation and negative growth of the economy continues. Why should public servants continue to be penalised after "recession" when private sector will not if things start to go well again. Why have unions not followed this train of thought?

Denis Irwin

jonny24ie wrote: »

I posted this on another thread, its not the fact we are bailing the country out that we are striking etc its the fact that someone earning 37% more than me will pay 10% less tax than me because of this levy!!

Well said. I'm a C.O. myself and I've said plenty of times to people we don't mind paying our share so long as it's based on a level playing field which isn't.

podgeandrodge

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

big deal they have to pay for their extremely well provisioned pensions where the rest of us have been paying it for years only to see the fund fall away to sh*t, my heart pumps piss for them really it does..maybe they can think about it on one of their many days of holidays they get every year, in their nice secure jobs.

really I am very upset for them.

I work in the public service. The majority of my colleagues are happy to pay TOWARDS the public finance problems. However, we feel that the lower paid public servants should not be penalised as much. Does that mean that the higher paid amoung us should pay even more of the levy? No. We feel that private sector workers that still have jobs (especially in the Banking Sector) should pay up too. We simply want a more equitable solution. Remember, all this talk about "private sector workers losing their jobs" is still a minority. There is still 90% employment in this country.

I and my public service colleagues are not responsible for your "pension fund falling away to ****". Blame your pension trustees. If they had put it on deposit you would be better off. If on the other hand, your pension fund was doing well (and it could do in the future) your pension could easily provide better benefits than the guaranteed public sector pension.

Yes we have a guaranteed pension and a secure job. In the good times we got our standard salary - and no bonus. In the bad times we again get our standard salary. A lot of private sector workers benefitted during the good times via perks and bonuses.

When times were good, my private sector friends never complained about my guaranteed job and pension. They were happier to take the 'risk' of private sector employment and reap the potential benefits.

On a final note - the continual references to "public service jobs getting paid on average 20% more than private sector workers" - where is this from? Does it include unskilled private sector work? Does it take into account that you have practically NO chance of a public service job now unless you are a graduate? Which attracts a higher wage than a non graduate. (Rightly or wrongly).

The CSO states that the average Civil Service weekly wage in 2006 was €838.
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/public_sector_earnings.htm


The average earning for Banking/Insurance etc (closest I think on CSO website that would equate to Civil Service type admin jobs in the main) in 2006 was €829. (Excluding bonuses of any kind).

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earnings_banking_ins_building_soc.htm


It wasn't that hard (with average qualifications) awhile back to get a job in the public sector. It's only now that times are bad that the bitching is creeping in, a good bit of which is thanks to the hyping by the media of my cushy number!

salonfire wrote: »

If they don't like what they get paid there's nothing stopping them moving to another job.

like there was nothing stopping you applying for a public service job all along if you think we had it so good.

Rant over.

Kimbot

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

big deal they have to pay for their extremely well provisioned pensions where the rest of us have been paying it for years only to see the fund fall away to sh*t, my heart pumps piss for them really it does..maybe they can think about it on one of their many days of holidays they get every year, in their nice secure jobs.

really I am very upset for them.

We already pay into our pensions and to be honest its not a big pension either!

I receive 22 days paid holidays a year. I'm sure you get similar so stop posting cr@p.

If people prefered the volitile market that is the private sector for a job then that is their decision, a public servant should not be penialised because they accepted a lower paid job for having some job security!

jaggiebunnet

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I and my public service colleagues are not responsible for your "pension fund falling away to ****". Blame your pension trustees. If they had put it on deposit you would be better off. If on the other hand, your pension fund was doing well (and it could do in the future) your pension could easily provide better benefits than the guaranteed public sector pension.

Yes we have a guaranteed pension and a secure job. In the good times we got our standard salary - and no bonus. In the bad times we again get our standard salary. A lot of private sector workers benefitted during the good times via perks and bonuses.

When times were good, my private sector friends never complained about my guaranteed job and pension. They were happier to take the 'risk' of private sector employment and reap the potential benefits.

Where did I blame anyone for my pension - I was stating a fact. It would be nice to get a pension which i didn't have to contribute to and that could be worth more to me in real terms than what I am paid just now. Now PS workers have to pay a contribution to their ridiculous pensions. Really as I said, my heart pumps piss for them.

podgeandrodge wrote: »

On a final note - the continual references to "public service jobs getting paid on average 20% more than private sector workers" - where is this from? Does it include unskilled private sector work? Does it take into account that you have practically NO chance of a public service job now unless you are a graduate? Which attracts a higher wage than a non graduate. (Rightly or wrongly).

Never mentioned anything about wages, I should bloody well hope the public sector is paid less than the private sector - it is our taxes that are paying for their pensions and vast holidays, damned sure we aren't going to give them parity with the private workforce, many of whom are paid less and have feck all pensions to look forward to.

jaggiebunnet

jonny24ie wrote: »

We already pay into our pensions and to be honest its not a big pension either!

I receive 22 days paid holidays a year. I'm sure you get similar so stop posting cr@p.

If people prefered the volitile market that is the private sector for a job then that is their decision, a public servant should not be penialised because they accepted a lower paid job for having some job security!

really - how much do you contribute percentage wise of your wage - and what pension will that give you percentage wise of your current wage.

I contribute ~12% and have done for at least 10 years - never complained one inch about it - even if i am only expected to get something like 70-85% of my current salary. I would have loved a secure public sector job where it was all taken care of for me unfortunately the opportunity never arose so there you go. I already know I am lucky - i can afford to put money into a pension fund.

I agree it is tough that the levy is added to public sector - maybe they should have added a clause where you don't pay if you don't want to a pension, that would have been fair, and give you the same options as the private sector that the public sector seems to long for..

Kimbot

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

big deal they have to pay for their extremely well provisioned pensions where the rest of us have been paying it for years only to see the fund fall away to sh*t, my heart pumps piss for them really it does..maybe they can think about it on one of their many days of holidays they get every year, in their nice secure jobs.

really I am very upset for them.

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

really - how much do you contribute percentage wise of your wage - and what pension will that give you percentage wise of your current wage.

I contribute ~12% and have done for at least 10 years - never complained one inch about it - even if i am only expected to get something like 70-85% of my current salary. I would have loved a secure public sector job where it was all taken care of for me unfortunately the opportunity never arose so there you go. I already know I am lucky - i can afford to put money into a pension fund.

I agree it is tough that the levy is added to public sector - maybe they should have added a clause where you don't pay if you don't want to a pension, that would have been fair, and give you the same options as the private sector that the public sector seems to long for..

I know when I entered the PS it was 6.5% of my wage, I don't know if that chages over the years but we still pay into it whereby you thought we don't!

I will not come out of it with anything over 50% of my final wage for my pension if I remember rightly.

Kimbot

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Where did I blame anyone for my pension - I was stating a fact. It would be nice to get a pension which i didn't have to contribute to and that could be worth more to me in real terms than what I am paid just now. Now PS workers have to pay a contribution to their ridiculous pensions. Really as I said, my heart pumps piss for them.



Never mentioned anything about wages, I should bloody well hope the public sector is paid less than the private sector - it is our taxes that are paying for their pensions and vast holidays, damned sure we aren't going to give them parity with the private workforce, many of whom are paid less and have feck all pensions to look forward to.

What VAST holidays are you going on about???

And as I have stated numerous times before we already pay into our pension funds, its not handed to us on a plate!

podgeandrodge

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

really - how much do you contribute percentage wise of your wage - and what pension will that give you percentage wise of your current wage.

I contribute ~12% and have done for at least 10 years - never complained one inch about it - even if i am only expected to get something like 70-85% of my current salary.

Well that explains that then. I, like jonny24ie will get 50% of my salary as pension and no more. You're a martyr if you don't complain about only getting 70 - 85% :eek:

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Never mentioned anything about wages, I should bloody well hope the public sector is paid less than the private sector - it is our taxes that are paying for their pensions and vast holidays, damned sure we aren't going to give them parity with the private workforce

I can only assume you yourself would not get a public sector job due to a certain lack of education as you clearly do not understand the benefits that you, as a citizen, get from the public service on a daily basis.

Pass your thoughts on to the next nurse you need in A&E, or clerical staff who ensure you get your welfare and entitlements if you need them, and the gardai you call when you hear something go bump in the night.

Ticktactoe

lily lou wrote: »

I'm a public sector employee, after 9 years in my job I now earn just over €31,000 a year which is a lot less than most private sector employee's who have spent that long in a job. I'm not complaining, I love my job and it's what I want to do, but in order to get a mortgage I took on a 2nd job 3 years ago and after over 5 years of hard saving I managed to buy my apartment in June now that's all in jeopardy, I'm going to lose over €120 a month which effectively cancels out my second job, I understand that we need to do something to help out, but it's just too much.
I don't have a luxury life style I just get by and put a small amount of money away for emergencies which I've had to dip into twice in the last 6 months when my car broke down and when my heating broke down, the next time this happens I won't have any spare money for the repairs. I haven't been on holidays in 2 years, rarely go clothes shopping and only go out around once a month so there's very little I can cut from my budget.
Also surely these cuts are going to affect other sectors, everone whose affected by these levy's will have to cut things out of their budgets so local shops, take aways, pubs, restaurants etc are all going to lose out!!

This is a very good point. I know PS that dont even earn anywhere near 31000 and they have families and mortages/rent to pay etc... they have to take the brunt of the pension levy with the income levy and have said that they are better off on the dole as all they are coming out with in net wages is barely 100 over the dole.... if they are on the dole they can get rent allowance etc.

Of course everyone will have take a cut to bail out the economy but do it fairly and stop hitting the lower paid so hard! :rolleyes:

jaggiebunnet

jonny24ie wrote: »

What VAST holidays are you going on about???

And as I have stated numerous times before we already pay into our pension funds, its not handed to us on a plate!

here is one such story about public sector holidays - i have worked for 15 years i still get 21 days.

podgeandrodge

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

here is one such story about public sector holidays - i have worked for 15 years i still get 21 days.

apart from a few headliners about gardai and very senior civil servants that article doesn't suggest any mad leave allowances out there other than the fact that some civil servants get a few days more than you do. Think I'd drop a couple of days leave for that great pension you are looking forward to!

Kimbot

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Well that explains that then. I, like jonny24ie will get 50% of my salary as pension and no more. You're a martyr if you don't complain about only getting 70 - 85% :eek:



I can only assume you yourself would not get a public sector job due to a certain lack of education as you clearly do not understand the benefits that you, as a citizen, get from the public service on a daily basis.

Pass your thoughts on to the next nurse you need in A&E, or clerical staff who ensure you get your welfare and entitlements if you need them, and the gardai you call when you hear something go bump in the night.

A CO at the max scale only get a pension of 8-9,000 from what I know so that is nowhere near half mate. Its max 50% at that is from A.P. grade up rather than us lower down!

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

here is one such story about public sector holidays - i have worked for 15 years i still get 21 days.

I have worked for 8 years in the service and gained 2 promotions and only get a day more than you. I will get 1 additional day in 2 years time and that is it unless I get another promotion.

podgeandrodge wrote: »

apart from a few headliners about gardai and very senior civil servants that article doesn't suggest any mad leave allowances out there other than the fact that some civil servants get a few days more than you do. Think I'd drop a couple of days leave for that great pension you are looking forward to!

So would I!

jaggiebunnet

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Well that explains that then. I, like jonny24ie will get 50% of my salary as pension and no more. You're a martyr if you don't complain about only getting 70 - 85% :eek:



I can only assume you yourself would not get a public sector job due to a certain lack of education as you clearly do not understand the benefits that you, as a citizen, get from the public service on a daily basis.

Pass your thoughts on to the next nurse you need in A&E, or clerical staff who ensure you get your welfare and entitlements if you need them, and the gardai you call when you hear something go bump in the night.

Ho ho ho - I guess I better stop so before the intelligent public sector folk embarrass me...

but put it like this, i don't get half as good a service i should for the taxes i pay.

jaggiebunnet

podgeandrodge wrote: »

apart from a few headliners about gardai and very senior civil servants that article doesn't suggest any mad leave allowances out there other than the fact that some civil servants get a few days more than you do. Think I'd drop a couple of days leave for that great pension you are looking forward to!

yeah - i would love to see you pay the same amount of money i am paying..

Triangle

The way is see it is as a scales.

Private Sector Tax on one side and Public Sector Wages on the other side.

Now the Private sector is getting light due to a high number of unemployed so the balance has to happen on the public sector....only a few options here

1) reduce the number of public sector staff
2) keep the number of staff but at reduced wages


It's a sad fact but the country cannot sustain the ratio of private Taxes Vs Public Expenses.

givyjoe81

Triangle wrote: »

The way is see it is as a scales.

Private Sector Tax on one side and Public Sector Wages on the other side.

Now the Private sector is getting light due to a high number of unemployed so the balance has to happen on the public sector....only a few options here

1) reduce the number of public sector staff
2) keep the number of staff but at reduced wages


It's a sad fact but the country cannot sustain the ratio of private Taxes Vs Public Expenses.

Absolutely spot on, this is the point that so many public servants led by their unions seem to be missing. They government simply CANNOT afford to have more money going out than it has coming in, its a simple economic fact, which public servants seem to be ignoring because they believe this levy to be 'unfair'.

The simple fact is they are LUCKY to still have their jobs, and the most likely reason that the government havent introduced widescale cut backs in jobs is becuase they cant, due to overpowerfull PS trade unions who could and would hold the country to ransom, the simple fact is the government chose what they honestly believed would be the easiest pill to swallow, as hard as that may be for PS workers here to believe..

Seriously ask yourselves, would you rather take this cut or lose your jobs? This IS the only other alternative, and argueing over fairness etc is absolutely irrelevant, the government simply cannot afford to continue paying your wages and benefits at the current rate, FULL STOP. No amount of bitching about mistakes they have made, how the bankers are being bailed out etc, its irrelevant. The same principle applies to the private sector, if a company has more money goin out than coming in, ulitmately it has to make hard choices which as we are seeing is either wage cuts, or job losses. Striking is utterly irresponsible and WILL only exasberate an acute problem and cripple the economy further.

On a final note although I initially had no sympathy whatsoever for PS workers its hard to take that stance when reading the above chaps story, ie long service, extra job etc, fair play to the chap and my heart does go out to him, but as i keep saying, a hard and ultimately obvious decision had to be made, and as tough as it is on the guy, who's shoes would you rather be in, the hard up PS worker with mortgage or the now unemployed from Private sector worker mortgaged to eyeballs and facing eviction.

As for 90% employment, do you really believe the accuracy of any figures being put forward by the government? Particurlarly after what came out today regarding anglo and permanent. Does that take into account the mass exodus of foreign nationals? Whether that 90% is even remotely accurate it certainly wont be for long.

(PS that Independant article is absolute one sided uneven garbage, honestly i have rarely seen such biased writing from a non tabloid newspaper)

The Blonde One

Not all public sector workers are in favour of the strike. Some of us didn't join the union at the first sign of trouble, because we don't see calling for a strike as the first and only option. Hopefully the Government will correct the unfairness of the levy that exists at present , and by that I don't mean abolishing the levy, I mean addressing the percentages and making them more fair. But for that to happen the unions have to go back to the goverment, and keep talking until a solution is reached. Holding the country to ransom at a time when hundreds of people are losing their jobs daily is madness!! There has to be a better way.
Any other COs that might be reading this and aren't in the CPSU - rock on!! We're in for a rough ride with our colleagues who are praying at the altar of Blair Horan!!

Denis Irwin

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

here is one such story about public sector holidays - i have worked for 15 years i still get 21 days.

Eh most civil servants only get 20/21 days a year holidays especially those in the co and eo grades. The only civil servants who get vast holidays as far as I'm aware are teachers.

Ticktactoe

The Blonde One wrote: »

Not all public sector workers are in favour of the strike. Some of us didn't join the union at the first sign of trouble, because we don't see calling for a strike as the first and only option.

The Blonde One wrote: »

Holding the country to ransom at a time when hundreds of people are losing their jobs daily is madness!! There has to be a better way.
Any other COs that might be reading this and aren't in the CPSU - rock on!! We're in for a rough ride with our colleagues who are praying at the altar of Blair Horan!!

Interesting post...
I love your username.

Firetrap

Ah, a lot of this is posturing. I used to work in the public sector and still have friends in there. They're willing to pay the levy even though they wouldn't be exactly jumping up and down with joy. The feeling is that the union leaders are obliged to kick up some sort of stink about it on behalf of their members. If they just let the levy come in without some sort of protest, members might just decide to cancel their subs.

dan_d

According to eircom.net's news today the economy will shrink by 6% in the next year, And public services wages and pensions make up a third of ALL Government spending.
Unfortunately regardless of how tough it is, etc, etc that can't be maintained.Private sector workers simply lose their jobs when they start to cost too much. Public don't. We are not asking the public sector to bear the brunt of this whole mess. We are asking them to do their share.Given that private sector workers hear more and more redundancies every day, fair's fair.
What's NOT fair and affects all of us is the fact that there are those in our banks etc, who are getting huge payouts and they had a hand in this disaster.But that affects ALL of us.
Personally I don't want to stay here at all, I think I'll be spending most of my working life paying with my taxes for this mess caused by the so-called people in power.But I don't see why one sector of the public should pay for it in redundancies and job cuts, and the other seems to get away without any affect whatsoever.

Godge

Triangle wrote: »

It's a sad fact but the country cannot sustain the ratio of private Taxes Vs Public Expenses.

Taxes are the lowest in any OECD country.

Public sector size and cost is close to the lowest in any OECD country.

That implies some adjustment in the public sector size and cost but a much bigger adjustment in taxes.

heyjude

Godge wrote: »

Taxes are the lowest in any OECD country.

Not according to these OECD figures for 2006 ( http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/48/27/41498733.pdf ) or provisional figures for 2007. For 2006, they show that Mexico, the USA, Australia, Japan, Korea, Greece, the Slovak Republic, Switzerland and Turkey all had a lower tax revenue as a percentage of GDP than Ireland.

Godge wrote: »

Public sector size and cost is close to the lowest in any OECD country.

Source ?

femur61

Who pays the pulic sector wages. My husband is a self employed builder, so far he has been lucky with work. But, most of his siblings work in the public sector with their spouses all self employed, if their spouses don't work they don't get paid.