Public Sector Unions to Take Action

OhNoYouDidn't

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0209/breaking16.htm

MARTIN WALL, Industry CorrespondentLower paid civil servants are planning to stage a one-day national stoppage later this month in protest at the Government’s proposed pension levy.

The stoppage will take place if union members vote in favour of the action and would disrupt all Government departments, the Revenue Commissioners, Social Welfare offices and Garda Stations around the country.

At a meeting this afternoon, the executive of the Civil Public and Services Union (CPSU) voted to carry out a ballot of its 13,000 members on industrial action up to and including full strike action as part of its campaign against the levy.

The CPSU is also to hold a demonstration outside Dail Éireann on February 18th. The ballot result will be known on February 19th, and if it is carried the union said it would be holding a one-day stoppage on February 26th.

The union is also to establish a committee to examine various forms of industrial action which would disrupt the management of Government services while minimising the impact on members of the public.

CPSU deputy general secretary Eoin Ronayne said earlier the introduction of the levy and the deferral of increases due under the national pay deal represented a 12 per cent pay cut for members.

CPSU general secretary Blair Horan said public servants are being “scapegoated” for a crisis they didn’t create. He said: “The Government still has not shown how those who made the most from the boom and have the most will share the burden.

“The Government’s pay cut and deferral of pay awards imposes too high a burden on those on lower to average incomes,” he added.

The executive council of the Irish Nurses' Organisation held a special meeting today to examine details of the levy and to assess the feedback from members and other public sector unions. Following the meeting, it said its 40,000 members would participate fully in whatever public sector wide protest campaign is agreed by the public service unions as a whole.

"The priority now, for both public service unions is that a collective campaign would be brought forward to highlight the inequity of the current proposal while also ensuring that the employer’s agenda, of putting worker against worker, does not succeed," said INO general secretary Liam Doran.

"The INO has now agreed to be active participants in these campaigns and we will discuss various options and strategies, with our public and private sector union colleagues, in the coming days."

Impact has already announced a major campaign of lobbying of TDs next weekend. The union's general secretary, Peter McLoone, said he welcomed statements from some other unions that they would adopt similar strategies.

He said unions would want to harness public dismay at mounting job losses, as well as anger at the public service pension levy.

Mr McLoone also said unions would want to pressurise the Government into fair and equitable economic-recovery measures based on the framework document on economic recovery agreed by the Government and the social partners before the talks collapsed last week.

The Public Service Executive Union said earlier today it would be urging its members to join members of Impact in lobbying TDs.

General secretary designate Tom Geraghty said unions accepted the need for urgent action to get public finances back in order, but he said the attacking the earnings of low and middle earners while failing to tax high earners or curb “obscene salaries” paid to what he described as failed executives as “grotesque and unfair”.

Union sources said there had been no contact yet with the Government on the application of the levy. Last week Taoiseach Brian Cowen indicated in the Dáil he would be willing to engage in talks with the unions on a possible “tweaking” of the levy.

Ictu’s public services committee is to meet tomorrow, while the organisation’s executive council is to meet on Wednesday to consider a joint trade union response to the levy, the failure to agree economic recovery measures through social partnership, and “the Government and Ibec’s declaration that agreed pay increases will be withheld from all workers regardless of their employers’ ability to pay”.

Congress general secretary David Begg said: "We will not take any self-defeating actions, but we cannot walk away and see a major reduction in peoples' standard of living."

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Fair play to them, lets hope that they get support from the private sector who are under attack too.

RobFowl

Can't see it achieving anything. Reeks of gesture politics.
Worst case the powers that be may see some benefit from cutting hours if there's no noticable decrease in the amount of work done !

OhNoYouDidn't

RobFowl wrote: »

Can't see it achieving anything. Reeks of gesture politics.
Worst case the powers that be may see some benefit from cutting hours if there's no noticable decrease in the amount of work done !

Thats a hell of a lot of votes in the next general election FF are taking on there, and a lot of them traditional FF voters like Gardai and nurses.

If huge sections of the budget could be overturned by a few auld gasbags, what do you think 300,000 people kicking it off could achieve?

Money Shot

Absolute disgrace. I don't think they will get one iota of sympathy outside their cosy circle. They have no idea how lucky they are to have job security and a pension to pay towards, heading into this cycle.

I hope Cowan and co. show a bit of brass monkeys for once and tell them where to go.

Mr.Micro

Well the Union leaders have to do something to regain their credibility and justify their jobs. The cozy social partnership has sailed into stormy seas and is probaby redundant for sometime to come.

gurramok

The main opposition wants their numbers and pay cut too (bar Labour maybe) so it may look like they have no political voice as FF have turned their backs on them slightly

mike65

Pffft! A nothing gesture, two fingers that'll get chopped off by the general publics reaction.

Climate Expert

They don't really need the public's support as they are the public.

And there is not job for life in the public service for a lot of people.

SkepticOne

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Fair play to them, lets hope that they get support from the private sector who are under attack too.

Realistically there's very little chance of that.

diverdriver

If they do this, once and for all everyone outside their cosy little world will see them for what they are. There won't be an ounce of sympathy from those of us whose jobs and pay are threatened on a daily basis. The public service really need to realise what the they are called the public service not personal service. We private sector workers pay their wages. They would do well to remember that.

On top of that we now see why unions have long since gone out of favour in most private sector companies. My Father over the years was a strong union man but at the end of his life even he admitted the unions did more damage than good.

Remember that the union leaders now planning these strikes were too cowardly to help the government make the right decisions. They pulled out of the talks because they knew these cuts had to be made and they weren't prepared to stand up an be counted.

Now they want to further damage the economy with strikes. Are they insane?

I hope these stupid strikes are voted down by the public service workers. Because I tell you one thing the people who pay their wages will have no sympathy for them. If they thought the media was against them now, wait and see what happens when the media reads the public mood and starts to hammer them.

Maybe the government should forget the levy and start cutting jobs. A dose of reality will do no harm.

diverdriver

diverdriver wrote: »

Maybe the government should forget the levy and start cutting jobs. A dose of reality will do no harm.

If people that are cnámhsáling about not being able to pay mortgages based on this levy don't cop on and realise that their job description for the most part didnt justify said mortgage then it will be the IMF that will do the cutting eventually and they will be merciless.

Seeing the Nurses leader Mr Doran on the news just now make my skin crawl at the level of Reds on top of the bed vitriol in what he is saying.

It's been said 10000 times already on this forum so here it is again.
The money simply isnt there- end of.

The CPSU,Doran Begg and the rest of them are all in cloud cuckoo land.

I've some sympathy,in fact a lot of sympathy for nurses and Guards affected by this but really if they are not happy with their lot,they should go do something else and see how they get on.
In the current climate they won't get on very well.

So they should just adjust their lifestyles and put up with it.
We are where we are for the moment.

jmayo

Have to agree with Black Briar.

OhNoYouDon't, you appear to think a strike of 300,000 odd public sector workers would be a good idea and get the government to back down.
Are you insane ?
What then, where do we get the cuts, what will financial markets think about loaning money to us after that little display ?

And once again I ask you, where will the money come from ?
It is very easy to say not me, not us or not them, but then who, where ?

Public servants and a few cosy cushy private sector workers as in the likes of BOI need to cop on and realise how shaky our economy now is.
BTW unlike some around here I still do not see ESB as private company, since it is primarily state owned and the board is appointed by government minister.

We can all bleet till the cows come home "it is not our fault", but it ain't going to do any good.

If unemployment keeps rising at the same rate, 2 billion will be useless in cuts this year.
Then Clowen will be begging EU to bail us out before the IMF step in and if they come in we really are ******.

PS
Even though I say we have to get on with things, I 100% believe the top bankers, developers, politicans, public sector employed regulators, and public sector executives responsible for our mess should be hung out to dry and be left with none of their ill gotten gains.

stevoman

I will be in favour of industrial action.

My best guess is a 1 day stoppage from all civil servants so that new talks ma go ahead so that lower paid civil servant may get a better deal fom this paycut or "levy".

If after nothing happens after that i guess they may look into a social welfae strik. thats just a guess of course.

gurramok

stevoman wrote: »

If after nothing happens after that i guess they may look into a social welfae strik. thats just a guess of course.

A social welfare strike?

Ah now, that is blatantly below the belt and insulting to the general public. :mad:

Lets pour more misery on the unemployed, one of the most vulnerable sections in society. You will get zero sympathy by doing that. Striking there should be the very last in a long list of places along with the hospitals/gardai, of anywhere to be striking.

stevoman

gurramok wrote: »

A social welfare strike?

Ah now, that is blatantly below the belt and insulting to the general public. :mad:

As i said that is just a guess.

just on your point though about hospitals and garda etc. these are the areas that are getting the most attention from the media in the "anti public service" lynch mob at the moment. espeically nurses. surely then these would be the area to strike from to show the general public how much in fact that these people in fact do.


either way i not one of the heavyweights nor one of the powers that be.

but speaking from mouth of somewhon who has worked 10 years in the public sector and has contributed like everyone else (to my pension aswell i may add) and have been under the average wages and still am, i beleive that a better deal or a deal at all could be ofered instead of a very hastily made decision by the goverment which is going to do nothing but drive a wedge in irish society in the long term. we have a goverment that is urging everyone to pull together and a goverment and media that is doing the exact opposite.

mike65

What sort of mentality would even suggest such a thing?

stevoman

mike65 wrote: »

What sort of mentality would even suggest such a thing?

its a guess at what may happen in he future. not a suggestion.

MG

We could call it the Setanta O'Hailpin strike

-> Kick the country in the nuts while it's on the ground

SkepticOne

At some level the public sector unions must know that industrial action at this point in Ireland's history is idiotic and ultimately against the interest of their members.

joolsveer

I hope they don't expect a favourable reaction from the general public particularly if they intend to affect Social Welfare offices.

If they are not too pushed about adverse reaction, however, they may have a suitable effect on the Government who are guessing that they will be stopped by negative comments in the tabloids.

Euro_Kraut

Just to help inform the debate; here is the breakdown of the impact of the levy on different wage levels. It may help explain why Clerical Officers (who are represented by the CSEU) are particular unhappy.

Annual Earnings Net Reduction % net pay reduction

€28,000 €1,147.00 4.89%
€30,000 €1,295.00 5.22%
€33,000 €1,517.00 5.65%
€37,000 €1,813.16 6.13%
€39,000 €1,797.00 5.84%
€40,000 €1,674.86 5.36%
€42,000 €1,563.00 4.86%
€44,000 €1,669.43 5.04%
€46,000 €1,775.51 5.21%
€47,000 €1,828.29 5.29%
€50,000 €1,987.41 5.52%
€55,000 €2,252.00 5.86%
€58,000 €2,411.46 6.05%
€60,000 €2,517.54 6.17%

murphaph

stevoman wrote: »

I will be in favour of industrial action.

It's game over for the country if there's industrial action. Not because of the immediate effects but because of the perception of people we need to lend us money-the markets. They wil run a mile from us and then it's just the IMF I'm afraid. If you think the IMF will hand over ANY money before the civil and public services are drastically culled, you are wrong.

stevoman wrote: »

My best guess is a 1 day stoppage from all civil servants so that new talks ma go ahead so that lower paid civil servant may get a better deal fom this paycut or "levy".

The ordinary low paid private sector worker is suffering MUCH more than the low paid civil servants.

stevoman wrote: »

If after nothing happens after that i guess they may look into a social welfae strik. thats just a guess of course.

If this happens and they have the balls to form picket lines outside social welfare offices they will have to run the gauntlet of some VERY angry people and I'll join my unemployed friends because I know I could be amongst them any day, as a private sector employee.

NewDubliner

Deleted User wrote: »

It's been said 10000 times already on this forum so here it is again.
The money simply isnt there- end of.

Indeed, the money is being used to bail out property speculators and developers.

bk

I certainly hope the government deducts them all a days pay for when they are out on strike.

Personally I'd like to see a counter strike on the same day, by all the people who are unemployed or maybe soon, so that a message is sent to the government most people support the difficult actions they have to take.

NewDubliner

bk wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see a counter strike on the same day, by all the people who are unemployed or maybe soon, so that a message is sent to the government most people support the difficult actions they have to take.

So you agree with the 7bn bailout? You agree with saving the fortunes of foreign property speculators?

DublinWriter

SkepticOne wrote: »

At some level the public sector unions must know that industrial action at this point in Ireland's history is idiotic and ultimately against the interest of their members.

By interest, you mean self-interest, surely?

Workers in the private sector are now getting butt-raped by arbitrary salary cuts of up to 10% and mass redundancy.

I'm sorry lads, but it's not 2000 anymore. The private sector in this country aren't even beginning to generate the tax revenue needed fund the public sector.

You should count yourself lucky that the government isn't imposing mass layoffs in the public sector (yet).

What is it about the statement "the money isn't there" that you don't understand?

Nightwish

I'm a public sector employee and not a member of any union. I dont agree with the pension levy nor do I agree with industrial action. I believe the public are too polarised in the pro and anti public service camps. I dont believe there'll be any support and I think in essence its going to be a futile move on behalf of the unions. I am one of the low paid workers who pays their pension and this levy is a kick in the teeth. I cant afford it. If only the government had the balls to call it a pay cut.

SkepticOne

DublinWriter wrote: »

By interest, you mean self-interest, surely?

I meant exactly what I said.

BlaasForRafa

Nightwish wrote: »

I'm a public sector employee and not a member of any union. I dont agree with the pension levy nor do I agree with industrial action. I believe the public are too polarised in the pro and anti public service camps. I dont believe there'll be any support and I think in essence its going to be a futile move on behalf of the unions. I am one of the low paid workers who pays their pension and this levy is a kick in the teeth. I cant afford it. If only the government had the balls to call it a pay cut.

I think a lot of people realise its a kick in the guts to have a pay cut, a lot of people in both public and private sectors will be feeling that. The state the country is in isn't the fault of clerical officers or dell workers or nurses or a lot of other professions but complaining about the cause isn't going to do anything about the reality of the situation.

The revenue from taxation has a huge shortfall and cuts are inevitable. Theres probably going to be another 150k people join the dole this year. that means another 150k people not paying income tax and taking unemployment benefits instead. the money has to come from somewhere.

Firefox10

I would like someone to tell me exactly what constitutes as "Low Paid" in the public service. I thought the average salary in the public service was around 42k a year. I may be wrong about this but if that's the case i don't see a problem with the levy.

Nightwish

Firefox10 wrote: »

I would like someone to tell me exactly what constitutes as "Low Paid" in the public service. I thought the average salary in the public service was around 42k a year. I may be wrong about this but if that's the case i don't see a problem with the levy.

€26k per year before tax

bill_ashmount

I hope the government stands firm, don't back down to their attempts to cripple the country.

stevoman

Firefox10 wrote: »

I would like someone to tell me exactly what constitutes as "Low Paid" in the public service. I thought the average salary in the public service was around 42k a year. I may be wrong about this but if that's the case i don't see a problem with the levy.

to take an average salary in the public service basically you have to throw in everything from civil servats, judges, tds, guards, nurses, doctors and everything in between and finding the "average"

so basically its like saying that cleaners, street sweepers, barristers, private doctors, check out girl in supermarket, bank manager and mcdonalds employee. mash up every type of job in the private sector and get the "average" of their wage.

in both circumstances its ludacris to take an average in such broad workbases.

i would love to know though whats the "average wage" in the private sector is!!!


personally i would consider myself kind of "low paid". I make €470 a week into my hand after 10 years in the public sector. now i have to take €40 a week off that as my "pay cut". it may astonish some posters but i too am a human, who has a mortgage and child and a partner who cannot find any work anywhere. after 10 years of and watching and listening to friends and people brag about how much money they are been making, and how my job is "too low paid", i find it some what ironic that a job that i have that was jeered and looked down upon by 90% of them is now the job they are complaining they dont have.

Time Magazine

Nightwish wrote: »

I am one of the low paid workers who pays their pension and this levy is a kick in the teeth.

A kick in the teeth surely, but your pension is heavily subsidised by the private sector. You don't pay all of it yourself.

Nightwish

I dont work in Superannuation, so all I know is I pay €1000 per annum in pension costs. My bf works in the private sector and he pays less in pension contributions. How the "private sector" subsidises mine I dont know. I'll have to root out my Superannuation handbook. Anyway its not going to be much use to me as I'm being let go in the next few months.

OhNoYouDidn't

Firefox10 wrote: »

I would like someone to tell me exactly what constitutes as "Low Paid" in the public service. I thought the average salary in the public service was around 42k a year. I may be wrong about this but if that's the case i don't see a problem with the levy.

If you include politicians, judges, surgeons etc, yes. None of whom are impacted by this levy.

OhNoYouDidn't

The Economist wrote: »

A kick in the teeth surely, but your pension is heavily subsidised by the private sector. You don't pay all of it yourself.

.........and the state pension you are entitled to (and they are not) comes from where?

Euro_Kraut

The Economist wrote: »

A kick in the teeth surely, but your pension is heavily subsidised by the private sector. You don't pay all of it yourself.

The big problem for me is not the idea that the public service should take some type of pay cut, it is how the cut is distributed among various workers. (see my post on the previous page)

On account of the way tax is applied, those earning 37,000 will pay more in absolute terms than some one on 42,000. Also they pay the equivalent of someone on 60,000 in relative terms.

I know that if I was on that wage level I would be very upset by this.

Most arguments against the levy are weak, but this is a good one.

OhNoYouDidn't

SkepticOne wrote: »

At some level the public sector unions must know that industrial action at this point in Ireland's history is idiotic and ultimately against the interest of their members.

The govt will back down. They went for what they thought was a soft target and when their drivers, coffees and papers dont arrive and they realise they have lost 300,000 votes they will come to their senses.

The public sector unions have indicated that they will accept paycuts, tax increases and various other arrangements. But attacking their pensions is out.

mikemac

Would you prefer to see the pension levy rolled back get a 5%-6% pay cut instead?
You say the public sector unions will accept pay cuts so is this more acceptable to you?

With a sliding scale to the lower paid of course but what percentage do you want to start at?

OhNoYouDidn't

mikemac wrote: »

Would you prefer to see the pension levy rolled back get a 5%-6% pay cut instead?
You say the public sector unions will accept pay cuts so is this more acceptable to you?

With a sliding scale to the lower paid of course but what percentage do you want to start at?

I'm saying that the public sector took increases during good times from benchmarking and are willing to take a freeze or cut now.

The point is, that if we are 'to share the pain' increase than increase PAYE rather than hammer one sector of the economy.

crafty dodger

Nightwish wrote: »

I dont work in Superannuation, so all I know is I pay €1000 per annum in pension costs. My bf works in the private sector and he pays less in pension contributions. How the "private sector" subsidises mine I dont know. I'll have to root out my Superannuation handbook. Anyway its not going to be much use to me as I'm being let go in the next few months.

1000 euro per year would go nowhere to providing you with an index linked pension tied to the salary level of the position you retire at (presumably after 40 years). If you had to pay the full cost of this you would be paying a helluva lot more per year. If your boyfirend is not paying into a pension fund well he will have no pension (except the 200 a week he will get from the state
I have worked for may years in the private sector and because the company I worked for during most of those years has gone bust my pension has gone pffff like a puff of wind. No safety net there so stop moaning about having to pay a bit more for your guaranteed pension

OhNoYouDidn't

crafty dodger wrote: »

1000 euro per year would go nowhere to providing you with an index linked pension tied to the salary level of the position you retire at (presumably after 40 years). If you had to pay the full cost of this you would be paying a helluva lot more per year. If your boyfirend is not paying into a pension fund well he will have no pension (except the 200 a week he will get from the state
I have worked for may years in the private sector and because the company I worked for during most of those years has gone bust my pension has gone pffff like a puff of wind. No safety net there so stop moaning about having to pay a bit more for your guaranteed pension

I don't understand this begrudgery. I don't want people who earn more than me to be earning less. I work harder and try and catch up. People have a better pension than me, I don't want them them stripped of their pension, I want to have one as good as them.

murphaph

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

.........and the state pension you are entitled to (and they are not) comes from where?

The private sector too. Don't you get it yet? ALL state income used for ALL state expenditure originates in the private sector in any capitalist country. That's just the way it is. Taxes 'paid' by public servants are just an excercise in accounting because the taxes go back to the same pot from whence the pay came. Only the private sector actually puts money into the pot in reality. This is not a dig at public servants-we need public services and so we need public servants.

nightwish wrote:

€26k per year before tax

For a 39 hour week? Is there an equivalent job in the private sector to reckon yours against to see if you are paid less than the 'going rate'?

crafty dodger

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't understand this begrudgery. I don't want people who earn more than me to be earning less. I work harder and try and catch up. People have a better pension than me, I don't want them them stripped of their pension, I want to have one as good as them.

It's not begrudgery
Pensions like everything else have to be paid for and I was pointing out that the payment level is nowhere near the true cost.... so if you want the end result of a good pension you gotta pay for it even in the public sector.

OhNoYouDidn't

crafty dodger wrote: »

It's not begrudgery
Pensions like everything else have to be paid for and I was pointing out that the payment level is nowhere near the true cost.... so if you want the end result of a good pension you gotta pay for it even in the public sector.

The public sector earn less but have more security and better conditions.

Whats difficult to understand here?

And if this is such a good levy, why aren't the policticians taking it on?

This is a 15% paycut in real terms. Thats unfair.

nesf

yellowpakchopra wrote: »

Your all idiots...Falling for the governments smokescreen
While you lot argue over who is right or wrong
They have the general public at each others throats
Cowen and Co are getting off the hook.
Bankers (Not the bank staff they are like you and me just trying to make a living) Investors who bit off more than they could chew.
Where suddenly has all the billions made over the Celtic Tiger years.

They have no idea how to solve this problem and are deflecting the whole debate. As if 1.4 billion from public servants will solve the issue.
We are in deeper $h!7 than that...lets get back to putting the blame where it belongs.

We are all to blame we voted them in a little wink and a smile got Bertie through the tough times but Cowen is too ugly to pull that one off.

Don't insult people please if you want to continue posting here.

pete

The Economist wrote: »

A kick in the teeth surely, but your pension is heavily subsidised by the private sector. You don't pay all of it yourself.

I don't work in pensions, but I've been told that...

Post-1995 CS recruits pay a 6.5% pension contribution and 6% PRSI.

On retirement, the amount of the state pension is deducted from the CS pension payable.

The last round of benchmarking suppressed salaries by up to 12% to allow for the value of the public service pension.

So it could be argued that the effective pension contribution before the new ~7% levy is around 20-25% of salary.

Time Magazine

Nightwish wrote: »

I dont work in Superannuation, so all I know is I pay €1000 per annum in pension costs. My bf works in the private sector and he pays less in pension contributions. How the "private sector" subsidises mine I dont know. I'll have to root out my Superannuation handbook.

The public sector pension fund isn't paid for entirely by pension contributions or superannuation, there's a bit of a subsidy from other sources.

Anyway its not going to be much use to me as I'm being let go in the next few months.

Sorry to hear that

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

.........and the state pension you are entitled to (and they are not) comes from where?

The Exchequer, i.e. private sector taxation.

Just for the record lads, I'm not arguing on a public=bad/private=good note. I'm just saying that the public sector pensions are subsidised.

ixoy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The public sector earn less but have more security and better conditions.

Whats difficult to understand here?

In principle, you're right that's the theory of it but now there's more than a fair few people who aren't convinced they earn less. It seems bench-marking was designed at times to give some in the CS/PS equal pays whilst maintaining all the previous goodies they enjoyed.
There's also anger at the indignation of some PS/CS who are playing the victim card too much in all of this.

And if this is such a good levy, why aren't the policticians taking it on?

Are politicians exempt from the levy? I didn't think they were.

This is a 15% paycut in real terms. Thats unfair.

Where is 15% coming? The top rate is 9% (should be higher).

pete

crafty dodger wrote: »

It's not begrudgery
Pensions like everything else have to be paid for and I was pointing out that the payment level is nowhere near the true cost.... so if you want the end result of a good pension you gotta pay for it even in the public sector.

Why isn't the 'pensions levy' going into the pensions reserve fund then?