[Article] Opposition to College Green car ban

markpb

Dublin city centre businesses say plans to introduce a car ban at College Green in five months' time will create unemployment in the retail sector. The proposal is also being opposed by some councillors, with the leader of the Fine Gael group describing the plan as madness. Council officials want to impose the so-called Bus Gate in College Green in July before enabling works begin for Metro North.

The plan would involve a ban on general traffic going to or from Dame Street by the introduction of the public transport-only gate. It would also involve enhanced pedestrian and cycling facilities.

Tom Coffey of the Dublin City Centre Business Association said 70% of retail business comes from car shoppers, who will now go elsewhere if they cannot travel around the city. He said his members are not going to accept a situation where the city's economy is being damaged by civil servants who do not know what they are doing. He said car shoppers visit the city off-peak and do not contribute to congestion.

Fine Gael councillor Gerry Breen said the scheme is madness because there are doubts over the Metro North project. He said the scheme is being pushed by Dublin Bus who has 'failed to step up to the mark' with the bus corridors they have already been given.

The proposal is due to be considered by the council's Transport Committee next Thursday.

I'm surprised there isn't a thread about this already. Bus gates are a cheap and cheerful way of improving bus priority through the city centre and would impact a large number of routes. If done well, it could encourage DB to operate more cross-city buses instead of terminating them on the quays or abandoning them on Abbey St or Marlborough St.

I'm not all that surprised to see the city centre traders objecting, they weren't happy with the Luas, they were downright incensed with the Luas connector and now they're objecting this. I am however surprised at Fine Gael siding with them. Maybe I was holding hope that they could at least shut up if they didn't have anything positive to say.

What does surprise me is that when I emailed half the councillors on DCC's Transport SPC, none of them have replied almost a full business day later. Maybe I'm jumping the gun, hopefully they'll reply over the next day or two. I would have though with elections coming up they'd work harder at pretending to care about my issues.

Edit: They must have heard me, the chairman got back to me just now.

paulm17781

The traders seem to think that people drive into their shops. They'd probably get more footfall if the city was more accessible. A car sitting in traffic does them no favours. People able to walk around would help a lot.

Zoney

That area of Dublin city centre is horrible to walk about, if not almost outright dangerous. Now mind you, central London seems to be similar (e.g. Oxford Street - one feels quite hemmed in and the traffic lights are similarly car-friendly/anti-ped) - but it's a lot bigger.

GreeBo

Zoney wrote: »

That area of Dublin city centre is horrible to walk about, if not almost outright dangerous. Now mind you, central London seems to be similar (e.g. Oxford Street - one feels quite hemmed in and the traffic lights are similarly car-friendly/anti-ped) - but it's a lot bigger.

Wouldnt it be far *less* horrible to walk in if the only traffic was public transport?

_Kaiser_

The point I think the city centre traders are trying to make is not that they think people "drive into their shops", but that people DO drive into town to do their shopping.

Let's face it, no matter how many buses there are, you're not going to convince people who have an alternative (ie: a car) to lug bags of shopping and kids on foot around the city centre, then maybe have to stand for 30 mins+ on a (often dangerously) overcrowded, speeding/swerving bus to get back home.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring the reality. This move, if it goes ahead -and when combined with the already extortionate parking charges - will only push more business out to the suburban shopping centres, and THAT is what the city centre traders are (legitimately) complaining about.

GreeBo

Realistically how many shoppers go through the centre of town.
I would argue that 99% of shoppers who drive into town, then park at the nearest available parking space or car park and walk from grafton street to o'connell st or vice versa. I dont believe that *anyone* parks @ the green, does some shopping, then drives down dame st to do more parking and shopping at that end of town (or vice versa)

Where do you think all these shoppers are parking today?

MiniD

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

stand for 30 mins+ on a (often dangerously) overcrowded, speeding/swerving bus to get back home.

Could you exaggerate any more? Outside peak hours, most bus routes have plenty of seats available. I don't know of any bus route which is dangerously overcrowded. Can you highlight such routes? I use Dublin buses every day and have yet to go home on a "speeding/swerving bus". I actually find most buses to be clean, comfortable and driven safely.

If planned correctly, this could work well and encourage more people to shop in the city centre who currently opt for suburban shopping because of congestion in town.

Zoney

GreeBo wrote: »

Wouldnt it be far *less* horrible to walk in if the only traffic was public transport?

Yes, my point was that the current situation needs to be changed! Sorry - hadn't realised it looked like a response to the post above!

I've seen the bus gate concept in Cambridge, UK. It seemed reasonably efficient in ensuring a pedestrian-friendly zone (one still stuck to the pavements, but you could cross the street at will with just a lookout for buses/taxis). However, the bus frequency didn't seem that high, whereas College Green is a sea of buses at times. Also they let in taxis - again, in that part of Dublin you'd have reasonably high traffic just from taxis.

Obviously bringing traffic levels down by doing this would be an improvement though, and probably worth the redirecting of ordinary motor traffic.

dowlingm

Something like this I suppose?

_Kaiser_

MiniD wrote: »

Could you exaggerate any more? Outside peak hours, most bus routes have plenty of seats available. I don't know of any bus route which is dangerously overcrowded. Can you highlight such routes? I use Dublin buses every day and have yet to go home on a "speeding/swerving bus". I actually find most buses to be clean, comfortable and driven safely.

Well admittedly it has been a while (as for the past few years I've had a car and never looked back) but try getting a 27 out of town some day. Wait till it gets to Coolock and starts to negotiate the ramps around Northside SC/Aldi and then again on Glin Road and the Darndale Road.

The majority of drivers I had the misfortune to experience seemed to believe they were missed racing drivers as they bounced over the ramps and swerved through the chicanes on the Darndale Road.
Whilst not QUITE as bad on an AV/AX bus with its longer wheelbase, an older RV/RA was like a rollercoaster!

As for comfortable?? I witnessed people hanging on for dear life as they tried to get down the stairs, and on one occasion a person was actually thrown from their seat as the bus served round the corner at Aldi.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. Dublin Bus is only a choice for those with no other alternative.

HonalD

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. Dublin Bus is only a choice for those with no other alternative.

That's what public transport is for isn't it?

_Kaiser_

dowlingm wrote: »

Something like this I suppose?

Ah yes.. they installed one of these in Blanchardstown (just off the roundabout) when someone decided that the buses would negotiate a narrow lane (I was on a 39 one day that lost a substantial bit of paint to an ESB truck that was parked halfway up said lane) rather than come in past The Bell pub like they used to (and often still did anyway!)

What was even "better" about this was that less than a year after this, the sliproad onto the Snugborough road was opened which took most of the traffic away from the Blanch village exit anyway! :rolleyes:

Enduro

IIRC the same geniuses, the "Dublin city centre businesses " objected to the pedestrianisation of Grafton street for exactly the same reasons. If they object then it must be a very good plan.

Stark

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring the reality. This move, if it goes ahead -and when combined with the already extortionate parking charges - will only push more business out to the suburban shopping centres, and THAT is what the city centre traders are (legitimately) complaining about.

As it currently stands, I'm perfectly happy to take a bus/cycle into town. What pisses me off about shopping in the city centre is taking about 5 minutes to get from one shop to another shop that's straight across the road. That said, a speeding bus is a lot more dangerous and intimidating than a speeding car. Benefits would only be seen if they reduced the traffic *and* introduced traffic calming and increased pedestrian priority.

paulm17781

This plan doesn't call for the total removal of traffic from the city. If people are going to Dublin city centre and want to to drive, they have to park. This is normally in a car park or designated parking area. Brown Thomas, Jury's (Christchurch) and the one off Nassau st. are the only ones I can think of anywhere near the proposed area. Are businesses that worried that people having to drive a slightly different route (perhaps, perhaps this won't effect them) will kill off city centre businesses?

It's far more likely it would make no difference other than making buses more efficient and making the city a nicer place. These businesses are more likely to benefit than anything.

paulm17781

markpb wrote: »

Edit: They must have heard me, the chairman got back to me just now.

Did they have anything useful to say or a reason why they're so opposed to this?

monument

The reality here is this is the same Dublin City Centre Business Association who have in the past used national rather than Dublin City stats on public transport usage to make very distorted submissions to the Department of Transport.

Tom Coffey of the Dublin City Centre Business Association said 70% of retail business comes from car shoppers, who will now go elsewhere if they cannot travel around the city

LINK: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0206/transport.html

70 percent?!

Let's get this straight -- out of all of the people who live and shop in the city, those who work and shop in the city and do not use cars, all those who come into the city on Dublin Bus, Luas, and Dart, and all those on day trips from out side Dublin on the train or on buses, and those who cycle... it all only comes to 30 percent?

markpb

paulm17781 wrote: »

Did they have anything useful to say or a reason why they're so opposed to this?

He just said thanks for the email and asked how I knew about it, nothing useful. Still no reply from the others yet.

Carawaystick

This is the dublin city with no public transport in the area between Abbey st./Church st./Constitution Hill/ Western Way/Granby Row/Parnell Square/O'Connell St or between South Great Georges St./DameSt/College Green/Nassau St/Kildare St/St Stephen's Green???

And no public transport after 23:30 on a school night? Heaven forbid Bar or restaurant staff would like to get the bus home after work.

Maybe motorists could use the plentiful park and ride car parks just off the main routes into Dublin, oh no wait, there's only one.

There are car parks off Fleet St, off Kildare St, 2 on Drury St, off Fredrick's Street. These would be affected by this.

paulm17781

Carawaystick wrote: »

There are car parks off Fleet St, off Kildare St, 2 on Drury St, off Fredrick's Street. These would be affected by this.

Barely. People may have to take a slightly different route. It's not like they're blocking access to them.

MOH

HonalD wrote: »

That's what public transport is for isn't it?

Eh, no?


What alternative routes is this going to leave people? Surely it's just going to lead to gridlock elsewhere?
Be a fine idea if we had a decent working orbital route (or two), but don't really see how it's going to work at the moment.

markpb

Quick update on this. Another member of the Transport SPC replied:

Naoise O'Muiri, FG wrote:

Thanks for your email however I'm not inclined to agree; at the very time that Dublin Bus is cutting back on its fleet and city centre trading is under pressure, a proposal is on the table that could cause serious economic damage the Centre? At the very least I would need an economic study that would support this strategy before I could even countenance supporting it.

spacetweek

MOH wrote: »

What alternative routes is this going to leave people? Surely it's just going to lead to gridlock elsewhere?
Be a fine idea if we had a decent working orbital route (or two), but don't really see how it's going to work at the moment.

No it won't - we're talking about getting people out of cars. That removes traffic, it doesn't displace it. There will be a net reduction in the total vehicle trips.

Orbital routes are irrelevant - we're talking about the centre of a circle here.

People can access the city centre without a car just fine ( I agree the 70% car figure is totally bogus). They're already doing it in large numbers.

In general, business love stability and hate change, cause that introduces risk and uncertainty, so they're generally against anything like this. Witness the pathetic attempts to bash the Luas while it was under construction. They were against it until they discovered that it was dropping tens of thousands of people off at the front door.

RedPlanet

Maybe he really meant 70% of the owners of said retail shops. Maybe it's they that prefer to drive in, park directly outside their shop door, half on the path or wherever, stroll in, collect the days takings and then drive to the bank, park directly outside the desposit drop, then drive home.
Hard days work ya know.;)

markpb

Just got an update from Head of Technical Services - Traffic confirming that the scheme has been approved to go to public consultation. Minor hurray!

paulm17781

markpb wrote: »

Just got an update from Head of Technical Services - Traffic confirming that the scheme has been approved to go to public consultation. Minor hurray!

Now to make sure those of us who want it to happen vote.

MOH

spacetweek wrote: »

No it won't - we're talking about getting people out of cars. That removes traffic, it doesn't displace it. There will be a net reduction in the total vehicle trips.

Orbital routes are irrelevant - we're talking about the centre of a circle here.

I'm completely in favour of anything that increases public transport use and reduces car dependence - but you need reliable public transport first. With DB and IR reducing services, and strikes in the offing, we certainly don't have that.

Just saying "you can't drive through here" and expecting that everyone's going to suddenly leave their cars and get the bus is extremely optimistic.

I'd also suggest (based on absolutely no evidence) that a large number of cars going through here are through traffic, rather than people travelling to the city centre. And since we've very few cross city services, those people will still be driving, just moving gridlock elsewhere.

markpb

MOH wrote: »

Just saying "you can't drive through here" and expecting that everyone's going to suddenly leave their cars and get the bus is extremely optimistic.

No-one has said that will happen at all! What they're saying is lets remove traffic from a small part of the city centre so buses can run faster and more reliably. If the bus service is more efficient, more people can leave their cars at home. They're doing exactly what you said:

but you need reliable public transport first.

Buses in Dublin are unreliable because a lot of them are stuck in traffic in the city centre. Removing the delays also allows DB to add more cross-city services, something they haven't been keen on doing because the city centre made them unreliable.

givyjoe81

markpb wrote: »

No-one has said that will happen at all! What they're saying is lets remove traffic from a small part of the city centre so buses can run faster and more reliably. If the bus service is more efficient, more people can leave their cars at home. They're doing exactly what you said:



Buses in Dublin are unreliable because a lot of them are stuck in traffic in the city centre. Removing the delays also allows DB to add more cross-city services, something they haven't been keen on doing because the city centre made them unreliable.

I wonder what bus service you make you use of, because its absolute bull sh!t to suggest that the reason they are unreliable is because of traffic. have you ever had the misfortune of waiting for a 19A? partic after ten on any night of the week, they are regular no shows and to suggest that traffic is responsible is absolute tripe, poor management coupled with drivers takin the p!ss are what makes this service and others through my area an absolute joke.


An RTE prime time programme not so long ago did a mini expose on the shortcomings of the service. such as leaving early for no effin reason other than they chose to, for reasons such as wanting to finish early. It goes on and on it really does, not stopping cos well they 'didnt' see you. not completely finishing their entire route and turning around at walkinstown roundabout so they can head back into town quicker, two buses leaving at once cutting workload in half. JOKE plain and simple, why on earth would anyone want to use such a service?! And that is just one route, christ knows of the probs other bus users have across the city.

Húrin

markpb wrote: »

I'm not all that surprised to see the city centre traders objecting, they weren't happy with the Luas, they were downright incensed with the Luas connector and now they're objecting this.

They're so idiotically conservative. I think that our wish for a safer, quieter and more efficient city centre is more important than the perceived interests of Brown Thomas, River Island, Arnotts, etc.

As you say these guys were against the Luas. With all the benefit that tram is giving them, they ought to be helping its upkeep! It certainly shows how poorly they discern their own interests.

monument

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I wonder what bus service you make you use of, because its absolute bull sh!t to suggest that the reason they are unreliable is because of traffic.

There are a number of major problems with Dublin Bus.

Some the company's fault, some the Department's or the Minister's fault, but traffic and traffic management is also at fault. And sometimes that means there are just too many cars on the roads.

Victor

MOH wrote: »

I'm completely in favour of anything that increases public transport use and reduces car dependence - but you need reliable public transport first. With DB and IR reducing services, and strikes in the offing, we certainly don't have that.

Just saying "you can't drive through here" and expecting that everyone's going to suddenly leave their cars and get the bus is extremely optimistic.

I'd also suggest (based on absolutely no evidence) that a large number of cars going through here are through traffic, rather than people travelling to the city centre. And since we've very few cross city services, those people will still be driving, just moving gridlock elsewhere.

Shopping traffic: these people are being asked to go via a route other than westbound on College Green / Dame Street. That leaves lots of options.

Through traffic: these people are being asked to go around, rather than through. Not ethe Beckett bridge is opening next year.

markpb

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I wonder what bus service you make you use of, because its absolute bull sh!t to suggest that the reason they are unreliable is because of traffic. have you ever had the misfortune of waiting for a 19A?

I have actually - I lived on the 19/19A route for three years and I agree it's completely useless. Have you seen the traffic jams on Aungier St & Georges St? There's no way any bus service could work when they use those streets. It took 40 minutes at 10pm one Friday night to make that trip and I've seen the same on Saturdays and Sundays. Of course that's part of the problem.

Victor

markpb wrote: »

I have actually - I lived on the 19/19A route for three years and I agree it's completely useless. Have you seen the traffic jams on Aungier St & Georges St? There's no way any bus service could work when they use those streets. It took 40 minutes at 10pm one Friday night to make that trip and I've seen the same on Saturdays and Sundays. Of course that's part of the problem.

Thats the taxis on Wexford Street.

givyjoe81

markpb wrote: »

I have actually - I lived on the 19/19A route for three years and I agree it's completely useless. Have you seen the traffic jams on Aungier St & Georges St? There's no way any bus service could work when they use those streets. It took 40 minutes at 10pm one Friday night to make that trip and I've seen the same on Saturdays and Sundays. Of course that's part of the problem.

Yeah i have and its still no excuse, because this happens at all times of the day including when the traffic isnt murder on the street. And it simply cant explain the constant no shows, coming from finglas, buses not completing their journey to terminus in greenhills etc. Umpteen times the last bus which arrives to the terminus on time just decides fcuk it, im off back to town, screw the people waiting. I have a littany of stories of their utter incompetence, not only them but other buses passing nearby, 77,50,77a etc. Iv had the misfortune of using DB for about 15 years before i bought my first car, just in time to save me from the looney bin... They are a disgracefully badly run, zero customer service fiasco. Im not for turning on the issue!!

So in short its a small part of the problem and far from a justifiable reason for their shambolic service. Simple solution, alter the route!!! how many busess come down that street?! Sh!t loads, no need for it.

markpb

givyjoe81 wrote: »

So in short its a small part of the problem and far from a justifiable reason for their shambolic service. Simple solution, alter the route!!! how many busess come down that street?! Sh!t loads, no need for it.

Totally agree. But what does that have to do with the topic of this thread? Should DB stop trying to improve all the other routes in the city centre until they fix yours?

Colm R

I'm having a tough time trying to visualise how this will look. Anyone have any links to any proposal as to how the system will look

givyjoe81

markpb wrote: »

Totally agree. But what does that have to do with the topic of this thread? Should DB stop trying to improve all the other routes in the city centre until they fix yours?

My point was that traffic is not the root of all DB's problems.. its DB themselves.

markpb

givyjoe81 wrote: »

My point was that traffic is not the root of all DB's problems.. its DB themselves.

That's just a blazè as me saying DB's only problem is traffic. Of course DB are inept, no-one would ever dispute that here. But traffic is _also_ a problem and the proposed scheme removes the traffic problem.

givyjoe81

markpb wrote: »

That's just a blazè as me saying DB's only problem is traffic. Of course DB are inept, no-one would ever dispute that here. But traffic is _also_ a problem and the proposed scheme removes the traffic problem.

Solve the problem how exactly?! THe purpose is to help free up the traffic (and encourage more people onto public transport) for buses, which it will do, but in ONLY on a tiny stretch of road through the city, while the traffic is simply redirected causing delays elsewhere. college green is a drop in the ocean as regards time delays, what about O'connell street, the Quays etc. For example far more congestion comes up (not entirely sure of street names) from pearse street along the walls of trinity college which DB in their wisdom decided to have their 77/50/77a services now originate from. The only reason i can see for this is because it suits their drivers (with their originating garage now being right beside their new terminus)and not the public as the bus is more often than empty when it eventually reaches college green.

It's like so many bus lanes around the city which are a great idea but not if you have a non existant bus service which is shortly going to be depleted even more.

So i dont think its blaze to state that DB will completely fcuk up or negate any advantage given to them by planing authorities.

Another example of lunacy in trying to encourage people to use public transport is with regard to the O2 arena, with ads/advice constantly on the radio advising people not to drive and to use public transport instead! What fcuking transport!! I think may have heard somethiing about a shuttle bus or two, for an arena holding what, 10k people?! Going off topic a little but my point is that we have these grand ideas with haphazard solutions underpinning them. If your going to stop cars travelling through town you have to have a viable alternative and our bus service is woefully inadequate. More luas, an underground, thats practical and would be far more likely to solve the problem.

Slice

It's odd that city traders would oppose this measure. One only need to look to Abbey Street to see how a once languishing thoroughfare has been completely revitalised with plenty of new businesses opening there as a result.

MadsL

Whats needed however is a central bus garage to house all these parked up buses. Westmoreland St will become a bus depot with this scheme I fear.

markpb

MadsL wrote: »

Whats needed however is a central bus garage to house all these parked up buses. Westmoreland St will become a bus depot with this scheme I fear.

If (and it's a big if) Metro north goes ahead, a big chunk of Westmoreland st will be consumed by a hole in the ground.

Cool Mo D

There's already Broadstone and Summerhill garages - which are plenty central. Even Donnybrook would not be bad. A little imagination would mean much less buses parked on streets.

Capt'n Midnight

And don't DB have land off Abbey street near the back of M&S ?

MadsL

A little imagination would mean much less buses parked on streets.

A resource often missing in Dublin planning. Where's a elected mayor when you need one...

loyatemu

they have Eden Quay - thats a bus depot, right?

KC61

MadsL wrote: »

Whats needed however is a central bus garage to house all these parked up buses. Westmoreland St will become a bus depot with this scheme I fear.

Where are you getting this from?

There are no plans for Westmoreland Street to be a bus terminus. It's just planned to remove cars from that area insofar as it's possible.

Incidentally in the last 6 years or so Dublin Bus have already lost Burgh Quay, College Street, D'Olier Street and Middle Abbey Street as bus termini at the behest of Dublin City Council - there are limits as to how many more termini can be removed from the city centre. Buses do have to terminate somewhere.

neilled

Slice wrote: »

It's odd that city traders would oppose this measure. One only need to look to Abbey Street to see how a once languishing thoroughfare has been completely revitalised with plenty of new businesses opening there as a result.

Its not really. They're just extending their greedy paws for a handout due to "disruption"...........................

athtrasna

Forget the traders, what about the cross city commuters? I'm in D15 and work in D2 and my options are 2 unpredictable buses, a 30 min walk to an unpredictable train or the car. Having tried the alternatives, the car has come out tops.

Usually come in the quays, O'Connell Bridge and around to Fitzwilliam St. This closure would block that route. Townsend Street area is already stuffed so that's not an option nor is going towards the IFSC to cross the river as the bridge junction is always stuffed.

If public transport was reliable, clean and comfortable then I'd be there. I've sat in too many dirty buses running late with smokers up top to want to go back to that!

GreeBo

athtrasna wrote: »

Forget the traders, what about the cross city commuters? I'm in D15 and work in D2 and my options are 2 unpredictable buses, a 30 min walk to an unpredictable train or the car. Having tried the alternatives, the car has come out tops.

Usually come in the quays, O'Connell Bridge and around to Fitzwilliam St. This closure would block that route. Townsend Street area is already stuffed so that's not an option nor is going towards the IFSC to cross the river as the bridge junction is always stuffed.

If public transport was reliable, clean and comfortable then I'd be there. I've sat in too many dirty buses running late with smokers up top to want to go back to that!

So you dont use public transport as its unpredictable but you are also against making the college green area public transport only (which is improving the bus service) as it will impede your private travel....

Oh the ironing. Its delicious.