RIAI Forms of Contract

Gunnersonny

I'm involved in a building company and am curious to know the difference between the RIAI Form of Contract (with Quantities) and RIAI Form of Contract (without Quantities) as I have seen both mentioned in Bills of Quantities. Also, is there a good text book anyone could recommend dealing with Irish Building Contracts? Cheers

Native Hawk

The RIAI with quantities means that there is a Bill of Quantities and that the quantities form part of the contract. When the contract being used is the RIAI without quantities then there should not be a bill of quantities but instead a schedule of rates. The quantities in this document do not form part of the contract. If you have a bill of quantities but the form of contract is without quantities, then elements in the document cannot be remeasured.

Gunnersonny

Thanks for that. Tried googling to find a book on Irish Contracts - found a publication by David Keane which is out of print... You know of any others?

Gunnersonny

Cheers Native Hawk. Have had some dealings withthe new public works contracts already!... I'm in Galway city.

Native Hawk

Which Contract were you dealing with? What do you think of them now that you have used them? I have had some dealings with them too but no problems to date.

Gunnersonny

We were dealing with the Short Public works Contract, but unfortunately there were loads of changes to be made throughout due to poorly prepared spec. The idea is good in theory.

It was a good education though!!

Native Hawk

Any chance you could copy me in on the e-mail also? <SNIP>. Thanks!

annie_m

Can some one send these PDF's to <SNIP>

Dodoronron

I'd be very grateful if someone could send a copy to me too. My address is <SNIP>

130r

Id much appreciate a copy if possible (sorry to be a pain:o). Thanks for your help
<SNIP>

aristo

i too would like to jump on the band wagon as i cant get into to colege library anymore, sorry for being a major inconvience, it would be a great help, many thanks

<SNIP>

shane_f

I would also be very grateful if someone could send me a copy of this pdf as i can't get my hands on a paper copy. My address is:

<SNIP>

Thanks a million

Mellor

If I was looking for/passing around copyrighted material. I'd be more careful with my private information

onq

Mellor wrote: »

If I was looking for/passing around copyrighted material. I'd be more careful with my private information

Agreed, and I PM'd the OP who offered it to no avail.

My intent is to simply get a copy to read it and have it in a form that's searchable, as my experience of e-books and PDF files in particular is that it hugely increases your rate of assimilation if you can easily find and correlate items of interest.

.

The book has been out of print since 2003-2004 I understand and there is no-body in a position to order reprints, which seems a pity.

I don't feel guilty about looking for the book. I would be happy to buy a hardcopy. I was in the RIAI last week [I spent well over €200 in there] updating my library and reference works and the one book they don't have is the Keane Books. I understand they are simply unavailable - they are out of print and likely to remain so.

Without wishing to criticize the RIAI out of hand, it seems to be a very strange position to be in at a time when people are trying to brush up on their PP knowledge to enable them to be assesed and become registered if they are not already MRIAI's.

There is some comment on the book here <SNIP>
There is also another book on my list of "to-gets" Building and the Law, also by David Keane

ONQ.

zelemon

Native Hawk wrote: »

The RIAI with quantities means that there is a Bill of Quantities and that the quantities form part of the contract. When the contract being used is the RIAI without quantities then there should not be a bill of quantities but instead a schedule of rates. The quantities in this document do not form part of the contract. If you have a bill of quantities but the form of contract is without quantities, then elements in the document cannot be remeasured.

Maybe a stupid question but why would one not choose to have a bill of Quantities? I am working on a project where we are using the blue form but have still employed a q/s to prepare a bill of rates & I am confused?

sydthebeat

zelemon wrote: »

Maybe a stupid question but why would one not choose to have a bill of Quantities? I am working on a project where we are using the blue form but have still employed a q/s to prepare a bill of rates & I am confused?

for some small domestic projects a BOQ may be overkill if adequate measured drawings and specifications are provided....

zelemon

sydthebeat wrote: »

for some small domestic projects a BOQ may be overkill if adequate measured drawings and specifications are provided....

Thanks for the response, the project is actually a large hi spec house on about 5 acres with an intial contract sum estimate of .9mill.

Mellor

In the grander scheme of things, a large house, is still a small project.
And while the cost might be high compared to regular builds, the hi-spec aspect would increase the price, without bumping costs.

Also, just incase you missed it above;

The RIAI with quantities means that there is a Bill of Quantities and that the quantities form part of the contract. When the contract being used is the RIAI without quantities then there should not be a bill of quantities but instead a schedule of rates

It's common for a set of rates to be produced when using the "without quantities" form. This is much simplier and quicker for small scale jobs.

onq

Mellor wrote: »

In the grander scheme of things, a large house, is still a small project.
And while the cost might be high compared to regular builds, the hi-spec aspect would increase the price, without bumping costs.

Also, just incase you missed it above;


It's common for a set of rates to be produced when using the "without quantities" form. This is much simplier and quicker for small scale jobs.

We did a house once -15,000 sqft.
Yes there is a cost to write the BoQ.
It takes the onus off drawing everything.
If there's no BoQ its down to drawings and spec.
It means checking tenders is that much more onerous.
With everything measured there is less likelihood of a fail.
With agreed rates cost of variations can be kept reasonable.
With formal remeasurement at end overall costs can be controlled.

ONQ.

Mellor

onq wrote: »

We did a house once -15,000 sqft.
Yes there is a cost to write the BoQ.
It takes the onus off drawing everything.
If there's no BoQ its down to drawings and spec.
It means checking tenders is that much more onerous.
With everything measured there is less likelihood of a fail.
With agreed rates cost of variations can be kept reasonable.
With formal remeasurement at end overall costs can be controlled.

ONQ.

Well to be fair, 15,000 sqft is a huge house. (was this a typo?)
For a normal sized house, the cost of a QS could easily out weight the cost of potential error

onq

Mellor wrote: »

Well to be fair, 15,000 sqft is a huge house. (was this a typo?)
For a normal sized house, the cost of a QS could easily out weight the cost of potential error

I had to check, since you asked, and the answer is no, its not a typo, its low actually - the planning area G.I.F.A. was 1,446.09 sqm, which is 15,566 sqft or thereabouts.
But that included the Plant Room, Attic Store and various undercroft stores and service areas which were prolly 2,000 sqft or more.
Heady days

Re the BoQ, yep, you're absolutely correct, unless you've got a guy who'll do a deal on fees.
A BoQ could stand you €10-20K or more depending on whose doing it and the size of building.

Otherwise you cna get a budget cost done for around €3K and pore over the plans and specification with a fine tooth comb.
You have to do a similar trawl over the tenders when they come it to make sure its all been measured accurately and completely.
But as the man says, its the builders problem if he's missed something on the drawings or spec when there's no BoQ as part of the contract.
But the corrollary situation arises too - the rumours of six QS's chained in a portacabin by a large Irish contractor just looking to claim extras is legendary.
You'd almost have to do working drawings at tender stage to avoid being fleeced by that sort of person.
That's reason enough for some architects to go looking for a BoQ on works over say €150,000.

TBH, most small builders will employ a good QS to prepare their tender offer breakdown.
A review od it will usually spot where the fat is and the adequacy of the Prime Cost and Provisional Sums.
Which reminds me, Defects Liability is up on one of the jobs next month and yer maun still has snags to do...

ONQ.

Mellor

onq wrote: »

You'd almost have to do working drawings at tender stage to avoid being fleeced by that sort of person.

This is the way I've operated on all of my jobs over the last 16 months (for different reasons with different companies/clients), and I must say i think its a far better way to work. But can lead to fee "issues"

onq

Mellor wrote: »

This is the way I've operated on all of my jobs over the last 16 months (for different reasons with different companies/clients), and I must say i think its a far better way to work. But can lead to fee "issues"

There is another way.

For simple buildings, heretofore, many people failed to realise the benefits of Part D of the building regulations.
You'd be surprised how a threat of referral to the Building Control Officer softens the cough of otherwise errant builders.
There is no mystery to it, unless its being done in a way you are happy with, suggest a referral to clear it up. Works wonders.
To be fair, it levels the playing field. Good workmanship using appropriate materials competently installed is all most people want or need.

FWIW

ONQ.

zelemon

Folks,

This seems to be where the wise ones of the A&D world reside, I have another issue that I cannot get right in my mind, if one is preparing a tender for a private domestic dwelling one does not require a preliminary H & S file & AF1 etc,however if that house has some particular risks (ie Working from a height) is it then required?

onq

zelemon wrote: »

Folks,

This seems to be where the wise ones of the A&D world reside, I have another issue that I cannot get right in my mind, if one is preparing a tender for a private domestic dwelling one does not require a preliminary H & S file & AF1 etc,however if that house has some particular risks (ie Working from a height) is it then required?

Zelemon,

This is the very problem that cuts right through the current relaxation of the H&S regulations resulting in people building their own home not being thought of as Clients.

Understanding Construction Risk Assessment - A basic guide
http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_a...Assessment.pdf

Guidance for homeowners undertaking construction work
http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_a...ion%20Work.pdf


With no Clients to make appointments there is no Project Supervisor for the Design Process and no Project Supervisor for the Construction Stage.
With no Project Supervisors, there is no one to write the Preliminary Health and Safety Plan and Site/Developed Health and Safety Plan.

I have written to the H&S about this.
The HSA comment is that both Designers and Contractors Duties under the legislation still remain.
This is undoubtedly true, but the fact is that the dutues of Project Supervisors go far beyond the "local" duty of each Designer or Contractor.
By the HSA's assertion, the patchwork of adjoining duties of care might be assumed to add up to being the equal of having the Supervisors in place.
I don't believe this is the case, because when you analyse the list of duties of a Supervisor, they appear to centre on governance, control, foresight, and co-ordination.

Happy to stand corrected on this BTW, but that seems to be the position as far as I can see.

ONQ.

lilynch

Gunnersonny wrote: »

Cheers Native Hawk. Have had some dealings withthe new public works contracts already!... I'm in Galway city.

I am currently doing a project on the future of riai contracts, i am completly not ok with this subject, would anyone be able to direct me on getting some information, i have the Keane book 4th edition, which is brilliant, but not so great for the future of this form of contract.
Please help.

Oddtomas

Native Hawk wrote: »

The RIAI with quantities means that there is a Bill of Quantities and that the quantities form part of the contract. When the contract being used is the RIAI without quantities then there should not be a bill of quantities but instead a schedule of rates. The quantities in this document do not form part of the contract. If you have a bill of quantities but the form of contract is without quantities, then elements in the document cannot be remeasured.

Hi Guys - if this thread is not deed! How does one control costs in a RIAI Contract without Quantities?

zelemon

Can anyone answer these questions for me por favor?

Explain the requirement in the RIAI form of contract that the contractor be constantly represented on site by an identifiable agent?

Explain in detail the contractual status of the contractor’s programme under the RIAI standard building contract.

jblack

zelemon wrote: »

Can anyone answer these questions for me por favor?

Explain the requirement in the RIAI form of contract that the contractor be constantly represented on site by an identifiable agent?

Explain in detail the contractual status of the contractor’s programme under the RIAI standard building contract.

Clause 10- contractor is obliged to keep a competent foreman on site at ALL times.

Programmes; a programme should never, ever be accepted as a contract document. It is more an indication of how the contractor intends to perform the works and gives an indication of dates for info etc. The programme belongs to the contractor, an architect or client cannot tell the contractor how to perform the works. Likewise if there's any "float" in the programme this belongs to the contractor and cannot be used to squeeze in variations etc.

Contractor is perfectly entitled to complete the works early but this doesn't impose an obligation on the employer, or his agents, to work any faster See Glenlion Construction Ltd v The Guiness Trust [QBD 28 July 1987 ]


In reality most programmes prepared by contractors are not great. They're difficult to interpret and rarely show the correct critical path.

Hope this helps

Gunnersonny

I am submitting a tender for a job that has a Bill of Quantities, but the form of contract is the RIAI without quantities version. It would appear obvious from looking at the drawings, PC Sums, Provisional Sums etc. that there will be changes made throughout. I can already see a large item that will probably be omitted from the works as building proceeds.
My main query is that will it effectively be subject to re-measure based on ammended tender drawings / specification in any event?
Is the QS just protecting himself by using this form of contract?

jblack

Most builders are reluctant to use the blue form (without quantities) for a project over €500,000.

Is the QS including the BOQ as a contract document?
Poorly defined scopes, loads of provisional sums and incorrect use of a contract are, in my opinion, a recipe for trouble.

Blue form should have a schedule of rates submitted by builder at tender stage, is the QS looking for this?

These are only my views, but from experience if you feel something is loosely defined and could invite trouble then get on the phone, clarify and back it up with written confirmation of what was said.

The three most important things in construction contracts are records, records and records!