ancient irish and basque

Daroxtar

I'm just wondering if anyone has done a comparison? My reason for asking is due to the very close genetic links between the basques and the population of connacht. Irish mythology says that the first settlers here were the descendants of King Milos who came from northern spain. This was always treated as pure myth but genetic testing has backed it up so has anyone found any links in the language to further the argument? I'm not looking for links between the current version of irish and basque as there are probably none but i want to know if anyone has compared older tongues.

tolosenc

Any links are purely coincidental. The Irish language has a well understood geaneology going back to Proto-Indo-European.

Basque has no such back story, and no link to any other language, save possibly the now long extinct Iberian.

Mooby

Agreeing with the last poster that Irish being of Indo-European descent is not related to Basque.
However, there are some words in old Irish that do not look particularly Indo-European in shape. It is possible that these words were borrowed into Irish at some time in the language's prehistory. (Possibly borrowed from the language spoken in the British Isles prior to the arrival of the Celts?)

Enkidu

Old Irish is an Indo-European language, as other posters have said, so it has no relation to Basque. It is very difficult to pick out traces of the language that was here before that. Of course if you go back far enough it was some non-Indo-European language, but by the time Irish arrived other Indo-European languages might have been there. It's difficult to know.

slowburner

Total newbie to etymology here, but fascinated all the same. If this is off topic - forgive me. I know nothing about the Basque language.
I'm curious about the number of words which are broadly similar between Irish (contemporary) and French but starkly different in English.

e.g.
Mara, Mer, Sea.
Capall, cheval, horse.
Leabhar, livre, book.

Is this to do with the Saxon influence on English?
I would love to know too, how Nordic words were absorbed into Irish - if at all, but surely with place names like Leixlip and Wexford etc., there was some influence.

Enkidu

See the bottom of the page for Proto-Indo-European.

slowburner wrote: »

Total newbie to etymology here, but fascinated all the same. If this is off topic - forgive me. I know nothing about the Basque language.
I'm curious about the number of words which are broadly similar between Irish (contemporary) and French but starkly different in English.

e.g.
Mara, Mer, Sea.
Capall, cheval, horse.
Leabhar, livre, book.

Is this to do with the Saxon influence on English?

Two things you might find interesting:
1) English wasn't influenced by the Saxon language, it is the Saxon language. Old English was the language of the Anglo-Saxon peoples. English gets its forms for those words because it shares them with other Germanic languages.
2) Irish and French developed from similar neighbouring dialects of Indo-European. More accurately the mother language of Irish (Proto-Celtic) and French (Proto-Italic) developed from the same set of Western dialects of Proto-Indo-European.

English tends to be different because it comes from a different branch of Indo-European dialects, the Germanic ones, which developed from Indo-Europeans spreading their culture up the Carpathian foothills. Irish and French developed from a spreading of Indo-European culture into the Hungarian/Austrian region.

slowburner wrote: »

I would love to know too, how Nordic words were absorbed into Irish - if at all, but surely with place names like Leixlip and Wexford etc., there was some influence.

A lot were absorbed, in fact there are books on the subject. Irish absorbed the same type of Norse words as English, naval terms and terms for new household features such window/fuinneog.


Proto-Indo-European: was the ancestral language to most languages in Europe, Northern India and Iran, as well as older languages in Turkey and Western China. It was spoken in Southern Ukraine and the Volga district of Russia. It spread across the world mainly because the people who spoke it domesticated the horse and had an open society (they let foreigners in as their own). After a farming crisis around 3600 B.C.E. they became a prestige group (good land, cattle, horses and an open society that was easy to join) and many people adopted their culture, language and gods.

slowburner

Gosh! Many thanks for that scholarly reply, Enkidu. It's intriguing and raises so many questions.

slowburner

A lot were absorbed, in fact there are books on the subject.

Any chance that you could point me in the right direction?

slowburner

Quiet here, isn't it?

Enkidu

Sorry for the delay slowburner, I haven't logged on in a wee while.

Check this book out:
From the Viking word horde: A dictionary of Scandinavian words in the languages of Britain and Ireland, Diarmuid O' Muirithe, 2010.

If you like something different I'll can give you other references. With less of a delay this time!

slowburner

I was only checking to see if there was still life in this forum, not just you Enkidu - there hasn't been much sign of it lately!
I genuinely appreciate the reference - many thanks. I'm off to the library.

slowburner

Two more curiosities in a similar vein. Mhathair/Mara. Mere/mer.
Curious that mother and sea should be so similar.
A further curiosity - I have not heard any language in which the word for mother does not begin with 'M'.

Enkidu

slowburner wrote: »

Two more curiosities in a similar vein. Mhathair/Mara. Mere/mer.
Curious that mother and sea should be so similar.
A further curiosity - I have not heard any language in which the word for mother does not begin with 'M'.

There are some, although they are very rare. In Finnish, Akkadian and Sumerian for example. Although even then it's a vowel followed directly by a "m". The only case I can think of where there isn't an immediate "m" sound is in Assyrian (a late northern dialect of Akkadian).

_blank_

It's usually the first verbalisation a child makes, and it's very naturally so, all it involves is opening and closing the lips while expelling air and invoking the vocal chords.

"ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma"

A very young baby wouldn't have proper control of their tongue to make other sounds.

So, very young babies looking for attention from their mother, to get the mother's attention would call out "ma-ma-ma-ma", and the mother would respond.

slowburner

So does that mean men invented really difficult sounds in order to avoid childcare?:p

Enkidu

Enkidu wrote: »

There are some, although they are very rare. In Finnish, Akkadian and Sumerian for example. Although even then it's a vowel followed directly by a "m". The only case I can think of where there isn't an immediate "m" sound is in Assyrian (a late northern dialect of Akkadian).

Discussed this with somebody and they told me that even in Assyrian, although the word for mother doesn't have an m sound, that's only because it's a shortened version of the old word for mother and they still used and understood the old word.

So it looks like it's M for Mammy all the time (unless you're an Assyrian in a rush).

slowburner

Enkidu wrote: »

Discussed this with somebody and they told me that even in Assyrian, although the word for mother doesn't have an m sound, that's only because it's a shortened version of the old word for mother and they still used and understood the old word.

So it looks like it's M for Mammy all the time (unless you're an Assyrian in a rush).

Probably something similar in Irish - " a Mhammy ".
Do you think there is an correlation between 'sea' and 'mother' across various languages?

Enkidu

slowburner wrote: »

Probably something similar in Irish - " a Mhammy ".
Do you think there is an correlation between 'sea' and 'mother' across various languages?

Meeting somebody about this tomorrow, so I can tell you then!

Enkidu

Really boring explanation unfortuantely.

The word for sea in Indo-European was: móri

The word for mother:méh₂tēr

So, they just happened to sound the same already in Proto-Indo-European, so they sound the same in the daughter languages.

If you want to know how to pronounce the word for mother:
mé = may
h₂ = A blowing on glass type sound. The kind of sound you make when you want to see your breath on a window
tēr = ter, but with a soft e, basically say ter with no effort, so that the e is kind of an "uh" sound. r is like a tapped r in
spanish.

slowburner

Enkidu wrote: »

Really boring explanation unfortuantely.

The word for sea in Indo-European was: móri

The word for mother:méh₂tēr

So, they just happened to sound the same already in Proto-Indo-European, so they sound the same in the daughter languages.

If you want to know how to pronounce the word for mother:
mé = may
h₂ = A blowing on glass type sound. The kind of sound you make when you want to see your breath on a window
tēr = ter, but with a soft e, basically say ter with no effort, so that the e is kind of an "uh" sound. r is like a tapped r in
spanish.

It might have been interesting - but now we know.
Could we not invent a myth to make it interesting?

Enkidu

slowburner wrote: »

It might have been interesting - but now we know.
Could we not invent a myth to make it interesting?

After sealing the ancient mother goddess of destruction in the sea with the sword of Tanalgor, the Proto-Indo-Europeans bound the two concepts together with similar sound to keep her prison strongly embued with magic energies.:)

slowburner

The origin of Atlantis, without doubt

slowburner

Enkidu.
Your input is required here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73592981#post73592981

slowburner

Back to annoy you again :rolleyes:
Simple question if a bit unrelated to this thread - does the Irish Cashel originate in the Latin Castellum ?

_blank_

slowburner wrote: »

Back to annoy you again :rolleyes:
Simple question if a bit unrelated to this thread - does the Irish Cashel originate in the Latin Castellum ?

I'm wondering if you are Irish?

The Gaelic word for Castle is "Caisleán" (cash-lawn), Cashel is an anglicised version of that (as the names of almost every village, town and city in Ireland are anglicised versions of their Gaelic names).

A lot of words entered Gaelic as borrowings from Latin, I don't see why this wouldn't be one of them.

slowburner

Des wrote: »

I'm wondering if you are Irish?

The Gaelic word for Castle is "Caisleán" (cash-lawn), Cashel is an anglicised version of that (as the names of almost every village, town and city in Ireland are anglicised versions of their Gaelic names).

A lot of words entered Gaelic as borrowings from Latin, I don't see why this wouldn't be one of them.

Tá mé.
Alright then - Caiseal

_blank_

slowburner wrote: »

Alright then - Caiseal

Caiseal is just another, probably older, way of saying Caislean.

Where are you from? What's the Irish name of the place? Does it make sense today?

Enkidu

Actually Cashel does come from the Latin Castellum. The Eóganachta who built Cashel were a Gaulish tribe who originally didn't speak Irish. They named Cashel after the Roman Castellum which the would have seen in France.

slowburner

Des wrote: »

Caiseal is just another, probably older, way of saying Caislean.

Where are you from? What's the Irish name of the place? Does it make sense today?

Kilcashel, and yep it makes sense, there's a cashel.

_blank_

slowburner wrote: »

Kilcashel, and yep it makes sense, there's a cashel.

Is/was there a wood/forest?

Choill Caiseal - the Castle near the forest/Wood - or else the Forest of the Castle.

Probably the hunting ground of the local lord back in the day

OR

A church, also near a castle

Cill Casieal.


Choill = forest
Cill = church

Enkidu

Enkidu wrote: »

Actually Cashel does come from the Latin Castellum. The Eóganachta who built Cashel were a Gaulish tribe who originally didn't speak Irish. They named Cashel after the Roman Castellum which the would have seen in France.

In addition to this I should also say there are a few places in Munster with Gaulish or Latin names due to the migration of the Eóganachta.

_blank_

Enkidu wrote: »

In addition to this I should also say there are a few places in Munster with Gaulish or Latin names due to the migration of the Eóganachta.

Be interested to know where else.

Enkidu

I've consulted a few books and the old Dindshenchas and slowburner's Kilcashel means "Church of the Castellum", coming from the Latin.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

slowburner

Enkidu wrote: »

I've consulted a few books and the old Dindshenchas and slowburner's Kilcashel means "Church of the Castellum", coming from the Latin.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Wow - that has some potentially fascinating implications. Really appreciate your research E - thanks.


What's an old Dindshenchas, by the way?

Enkidu

slowburner wrote: »

Wow - that has some potentially fascinating implications. Really appreciate your research E - thanks.


What's an old Dindshenchas, by the way?

The Dindshenchas are basically a collection of poems (with extremely complicated poetic meters, they are probably more "technically" brilliant than any other poems in Europe) which originally recited, but later written down by the Bards. They contain information on how every location in Ireland got its name, they are basically "memory poems" for remembering these placename stories.

All the ones we have come to about eight large volumes.

slowburner

One more question and then I'll stop annoying you
Would all areas with Cashel in their names, translate as Castellum?

Enkidu

slowburner wrote: »

One more question and then I'll stop annoying you
Would all areas with Cashel in their names, translate as Castellum?

I anticipated this question so I also looked into this. The answer is yes. Virtually every place with Cashel in it traces in some way to Castellum. Basically the Gauls would have seen a lot of Castellums in their native France built by the Romans. They brought their own imitation of Castellums to Ireland, called Caiseal, from which we get the word. There are only two things to be careful of:

1) There are a few places where Cashel appears from some completely different Irish word being Anglicised, but this is so rare that you don't have to worry about it.

2) More important though is how Caiseal was used. Very early on it referred to building styles associated to traditionally Gaulish families such as the Eóganachta, but later it just became a type of buliding. An analogy would be Gothic churches, which were original a type of French church, but then became just a building style used everywhere. So some cashels are Gaulish castellums of Gaulish families and others are just that building type used by others. Basically they are either:
(a) French-Celtic imitations of the Roman Castellum found in Ireland
or
(b) Irish-Celtic imitations of (a)

Also don't feel bad about the questions, often answering them hones my own knowledge, so ask away!:)

slowburner

Enkidu wrote: »

I anticipated this question so I also looked into this. The answer is yes. Virtually every place with Cashel in it traces in some way to Castellum. Basically the Gauls would have seen a lot of Castellums in their native France built by the Romans. They brought their own imitation of Castellums to Ireland, called Caiseal, from which we get the word. There are only two things to be careful of:

1) There are a few places where Cashel appears from some completely different Irish word being Anglicised, but this is so rare that you don't have to worry about it.

2) More important though is how Caiseal was used. Very early on it referred to building styles associated to traditionally Gaulish families such as the Eóganachta, but later it just became a type of buliding. An analogy would be Gothic churches, which were original a type of French church, but then became just a building style used everywhere. So some cashels are Gaulish castellums of Gaulish families and others are just that building type used by others. Basically they are either:
(a) French-Celtic imitations of the Roman Castellum found in Ireland
or
(b) Irish-Celtic imitations of (a)

Also don't feel bad about the questions, often answering them hones my own knowledge, so ask away!:)

That's very kind of you, and much appreciated.

I owe you an explanation for my nagging; it's probably loopy but curious nonetheless.
The townland of the 'Church of the Castellum' is adjacent to a townland called 'Tigroney'. I've heard the latter translated as 'The House of the Romans' - ' Tí Ronaí ' (sp.). Feel free to reject this translation:)

Conventional wisdom states that the Romans never settled in Ireland - and there is no physical evidence (yet) to prove otherwise.
With regard to my back yard; if you look at these two townland names and add the fact that both demarcate a significant source of copper ore and add the fact that the Romans were always on the look out for a fast ingot - it kind of makes the imagination run. They had to have an interest of some description in such a valuable source of metal.
I understand your elucidation of the ways Castellum became ingrained into Irish placenames, but wouldn't it be amazing if this particular Cashel had a more direct link to Rome?

There are remains around here of four or five enclosures which have never been dated - the best guess I've heard is that they are late Iron Age to early Medieval: nobody knows for sure and it's highly improbable that they'll warrant enough interest to be excavated. The notable thing about them is that they don't conform to the usual cashel shape - they are 'D' rather than 'O' shaped. They are unique to this small but significant area.

I was lucky enough to have an archaeologist friend come to have a look at one of the sites around here which has the almost completely remains of a medieval church, an (iron age?) enclosure and possibly a mass burial from 1798, not to mention two barrows and possibly the outer ditch of a neolithic enclosure (another archaeologist is due to have a look at this soon). Christians, as you well know, liked to erase the pagan past by building on it. I have to find a bullaun stone (I think I know where it is) to prove that the site was originally pagan.

Enkidu

That is fascinating slowburner, particularly the D-shape.

I should say that Caiseal is also the Irish word for a totally Roman Castellum as well, so anything is possible!:)

Keep us updated, I would be interested to see where this goes.

slowburner

Enkidu wrote: »

That is fascinating slowburner, particularly the D-shape.

I should say that Caiseal is also the Irish word for a totally Roman Castellum as well, so anything is possible!:)

Keep us updated, I would be interested to see where this goes.

Have me doubts that it'll go where I would like, but it will be an interesting journey - has been this far anyway.
I was having great difficulty finding the date of the church within the enclosure, but it's funny how things go.
Today, I called in to the local IT centre, just for the crack, to see a record from 1798. The girl directed me to a box full of baptism, death and marriage certs which she said were in a complete mess but I was welcome to have a look. I was delighted. I was even more delighted when she said I could take them home!
To cut a long story short - the records were of no use to me but sandwiched in amongst the papers was a loose sheet which dated the church to its demise in 1130. The (unknown) author noted the presence of several antiquities on the site which he reckoned to be prehistoric.

Do you think that the translation of Tí Ronaí as the House of the Romans, could be justified?

slowburner

I came across this today (not too sure what it's got to do with ancient Irish and Basque - might start a thread over in History & Heritage if I'm getting up anyone's nose )

following note in Dr. Joyce's History
of Irish Place Names :
6i Tigroney, the
name of a place between Rathdrum
and Arklow, but beside Avoca, is the
ancient church or House of the Romans,
where Palladius, St. Patrick's predecessor,
erected a church during his short
visit to this coast."
The church in Tigroney is thought to
have been the first Catholic church built
in Ireland; hence, to mark the event,
there is but one townland of the name
in Ireland.

slowburner

Enkidu, I have quoted what you say above about Castellum in a new thread over in History and Heritage forum - i hope you don't mind

I spent yesterday afternoon with an eminent archaeologist having a look at various ruins in the area - he wasn't overly enthused by my loopy theory

slowburner

Here's the link to the thread over in History & Heritage.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056368653

While I was here, I was cluttering the forum with off topic historical questions - now I'm cluttering up the history forum with linguistics questions