Insurance companies allowed to dicriminate on sex but not race?

owenmakken

We all know insurance companies give women lower quotes based on the statistics that they are involved in less payouts, but how come the same assessment can't be made for people of a different race or nationality.

Well the obvious answer would be thats there's absolutly no difference in race and nationality and to suggest so is racist even if the statistics suggest.

Daisy Dweller

I work for an insurance co and can tell ya now that the policy holders country of origin can sometimes carry a loading. Reason being that some countries driving tests are held in flippin car parks!! Also, some countries full licenses are just considered as good as provisional licences here, so they can be refused insurance on those grounds....

Aw...tis just like working in telesales again...;)

ShadowHearth

Daisy Dweller wrote: »

I work for an insurance co and can tell ya now that the policy holders country of origin can sometimes carry a loading. Reason being that some countries driving tests are held in flippin car parks!! Also, some countries full licenses are just considered as good as provisional licences here, so they can be refused insurance on those grounds....

Aw...tis just like working in telesales again...;)

Well i can tell that moust insurance are full of Sh*t.

I am lithuanian, i have europeon driving license. To get that i was on 4 months courses, 3 days per weak theory, 2 days per weak driving lessons for 1.5h. I could start doing mine theory test and driving test, only when i have driven atleast 20hours with instructor and after i finished driving school.

Now some insurance componies think that such driving license can be compared only to an "supervisional"?!?!

In ireland:
A: i whant to drive,mister!
B: here you go ,sun, take this piece of paper and of you go on roads!

Then people get confused when so many drivers kill them selfs on roads. Still wondering why?

Atleast they started banning people with "supervisional" driving license now, if they cought alone in the car.

Now i am not against irish people, dont understand me wrong. I love to be able live and work in here. Just some things here are really really wrong.

Now there is lots of bad lithuanian drivers, some of them are just pure idiats. But there are loads of irish idiats aswell. So if they will start discriminating on nationality aswell.... Well then we hit rock bottom lads.

Sorry for all spelling mistakes lads, and plz, dont understand me wrong on this one.

Berty

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well i can tell that moust insurance are full of Sh*t.

I am lithuanian, i have europeon driving license. To get that i was on 4 months courses, 3 days per weak theory, 2 days per weak driving lessons for 1.5h. I could start doing mine theory test and driving test, only when i have driven atleast 20hours with instructor and after i finished driving school.

Now some insurance componies think that such driving license can be compared only to an supervisional?!?!

In ireland:
A: i whant to drive,mister!
B: here you go ,sun, take this piece of paper and of you go on roads!

Then people get confused when so many drivers kill them selfs on roads. Still wondering why?

Atleast they started banning people with supervisional driving license now, if they cought alone in the car.

Now i am not against irish people, dont understand me wrong. I love to be able live and work in here. Just some things here are really really wrong.

Now there is lots of bad lithuanian drivers, some of them are just pure idiats. But there are loads of irish idiats aswell. So if they will start discriminating on nationality aswell.... Well then we hit rock bottom lads.

Sorry for all spelling mistakes lads, and plz, dont understand me wrong on this one.

Well said !

Bluefoam

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well i can tell that moust insurance are full of Sh*t.

I am lithuanian, i have europeon driving license. To get that i was on 4 months courses, 3 days per weak theory, 2 days per weak driving lessons for 1.5h. I could start doing mine theory test and driving test, only when i have driven atleast 20hours with instructor and after i finished driving school.

Now some insurance componies think that such driving license can be compared only to an supervisional?!?!

In ireland:
A: i whant to drive,mister!
B: here you go ,sun, take this piece of paper and of you go on roads!

Then people get confused when so many drivers kill them selfs on roads. Still wondering why?

Atleast they started banning people with supervisional driving license now, if they cought alone in the car.

Now i am not against irish people, dont understand me wrong. I love to be able live and work in here. Just some things here are really really wrong.

Now there is lots of bad lithuanian drivers, some of them are just pure idiats. But there are loads of irish idiats aswell. So if they will start discriminating on nationality aswell.... Well then we hit rock bottom lads.

Sorry for all spelling mistakes lads, and plz, dont understand me wrong on this one.

I agree with you, but other countries have driver learning systems which are even worse than Irelands. We need to adopt a similar system to Lithuania & make sure every driver meets high standards.

ShadowHearth

Bluefoam wrote: »

I agree with you, but other countries have driver learning systems which are even worse than Irelands. We need to adopt a similar system to Lithuania & make sure every driver meets high standards.

Agree you can really go even worse. And to be honset, i do feel you pain lads. Booking a test, and get called in 1 year for it. This is just insane!

We had simmilar problem in lithuania aswell. But then goverment gave it to private hands, which really made it work great!

They should reallt redo all system of getting driving license, them maybe there will less death. You dont need to lookd for example far away, looks whats happening when snow came. Panic...

lets just hope that they willstart doind something about it. And i really hope that insurance companies will start looking at europeon driving license properly.

Seth Brundle

owenmakken wrote: »

We all know insurance companies give women lower quotes based on the statistics that they are involved in less payouts, but how come the same assessment can't be made for people of a different race or nationality.

Well the obvious answer would be thats there's absolutly no difference in race and nationality and to suggest so is racist even if the statistics suggest.

What makes you think that someone's country of origin is not used when calculating risk?

robbie99

Supervisional licenses. Brillliant.

I can see that word becoming common usage like ecomentalist.

Saab Ed

There is the little point you failed to mention there that you drive on the other side in Lithuanian. Many accidents have been caused by people from other countries driving on the wrong side of the road so I think its right that this might be taken into consideration by Insurance companies. But on the Irish system, well all I can say is Im sure the Lithuanian Insurance companies also take our failings into consideration

fl4pj4ck

kbannon wrote: »

What makes you think that someone's country of origin is not used when calculating risk?

it is, as one of the polish newspapers revealed, polish people have to pay more. how did they prove it? they rang companies twice, once with a polish lad speaking and the other time with an irish person, and try to insure the very same car.

the difference in quotes they got were as high as up to e200.

nuff said

ninty9er

Gender is binary, ergo stats based thereon are much easier to analyse.

jimmycrackcorm

Saab Ed wrote: »

There is the little point you failed to mention there that you drive on the other side in Lithuanian. Many accidents have been caused by people from other countries driving on the wrong side of the road so I think its right that this might be taken into consideration by Insurance companies. But on the Irish system, well all I can say is Im sure the Lithuanian Insurance companies also take our failings into consideration

Brother (Irish) bought a left hand drive car and went to insure it. He was told if he was Eastern European he would not be quoted due to the risk profile of people accustomed to driving on the right.

Mr.David

Surely it cannot be deemed racist if it is based on statistics? Men pay more than women. Why? Men are statistically shown to be more likely to be involved in an accident. Fair? Well, yes broadly speaking the logic is sound (athough it is still hard to stomach when you are a sensible male driver).

On the basis of race, I think it is perfectly fair to again use statistics to determine the premium. For starters, driving styles, driving tests, road manners, road signs etc all vary considerably all around the world, not to mention having (possibly) to drive on the opposite side of the road. I know in lots of countries, especially African countries driving licences can simply be bought and so how can we have faith that their driving has reached a certain level?

To conclude, if its basis is statistical its fair.

Del2005

Mr.David wrote: »

Surely it cannot be deemed racist if it is based on statistics? Men pay more than women. Why? Men are statistically shown to be more likely to be involved in an accident. Fair? Well, yes broadly speaking the logic is sound (athough it is still hard to stomach when you are a sensible male driver).

Men have less RTCs the females, but men tend to collide with other objects at higher speeds so the claims are higher that's why we pay more

On the basis of race, I think it is perfectly fair to again use statistics to determine the premium. For starters, driving styles, driving tests, road manners, road signs etc all vary considerably all around the world, not to mention having (possibly) to drive on the opposite side of the road. I know in lots of countries, especially African countries driving licences can simply be bought and so how can we have faith that their driving has reached a certain level?

To conclude, if its basis is statistical its fair.

Aren't we already dicriminated on race. I pay more then someone down the country as I live in Dublin;). And if an insurance company can prove that certain people have higher claims then yes they can charge more as it's not discrimination it's statistical loading, and you know what's said about statistics.

Berty

Del2005 wrote: »

Aren't we already dicriminated on race. I pay more then someone down the country as I live in Dublin;). And if an insurance company can prove that certain people have higher claims then yes they can charge more as it's not discrimination it's statistical loading, and you know what's said about statistics.

Its not all about the possibility of you crashing or somebody into you. Your Insurance also covers fire and theft and in an urban setting there is a higher chance of criminal damage.

I was living technically in Clare and used the clare address for Insurance purposes but used the Limerick address for all other post because it arrived quicker. My Insurance was 10% cheaper because of a rural address.

On that note you could then argue that people are discrimintated against because they did not have the foresight to build a garage on the side of their house and get charged more insurance because they park on a driveway instead.

Insurance is all about risk. Less risk = lower premium.

Twin-go

Just a quick question that somebody here maybe able to answer:

1. How many claims involve Men and how many involve Women?

2. How many male drivers on the road? How many female?

The majority of professional drivers (Truck, Van, Bus, Taxi etc.) seem to be men. Thus chances are there are more male drivers on the road at any one time = more likely to be involved in accident.

Is the loading on motor insurence for male drivers fair?

robtri

Here's all the data from 2006 ... latest report from the financial regulator, interesting read....

can't get the PDF to upload... but here's the link...

http://www.financialregulator.ie/frame_main.asp?pg=results.asp

robbie99

robtri wrote: »

Here's all the data from 2006 ... latest report from the financial regulator, interesting read....

can't get the PDF to upload... but here's the link...

http://www.financialregulator.ie/frame_main.asp?pg=results.asp

Try this link...

http://www.financialregulator.ie/data/pub_files/Motor%20Insurance%20Statistics.pdf

robtri

robbie99 wrote: »

Try this link...

http://www.financialregulator.ie/data/pub_files/Motor%20Insurance%20Statistics.pdf

Cheers, grabbed the wrong link of the site..:o

Stark

Del2005 wrote: »

Aren't we already dicriminated on race. I pay more then someone down the country as I live in Dublin;). And if an insurance company can prove that certain people have higher claims then yes they can charge more as it's not discrimination it's statistical loading, and you know what's said about statistics.

Race isn't the same thing as nationality or location. You can be born in Ireland and still be non-Caucasian.

Don't think there's anything stopping the insurance companies from discriminating based on race btw. As far as I know, they're totally exempt from equality legislation when it comes to handing out premiums.

robtri

Insurance companies can set premiums based on any trends that they see, If a particular race has a higher trend of accidents and damages, then yes they are entitled to charge more for that race....

Eric Cartman

Del2005 wrote: »

And if an insurance company can prove that certain people have higher claims then yes they can charge more as it's not discrimination it's statistical loading

i like it, i can see doormen "our statistical analysis determains that because you live in a 'halting site' we are aloud to load your price of admission, the 10 euro fee will be loaded to 250 euro, do you lads still want to come in"


also with the issue of women driving, the loading isnt because men have more crashes, women may pay 40% or so less for insurance, but they as a gender only drive something like 1/12th the mileage of men, so really there not saving much at all

Linoge

Twin-go wrote: »

Just a quick question that somebody here maybe able to answer:

1. How many claims involve Men and how many involve Women?

2. How many male drivers on the road? How many female?

The majority of professional drivers (Truck, Van, Bus, Taxi etc.) seem to be men. Thus chances are there are more male drivers on the road at any one time = more likely to be involved in accident.

Is the loading on motor insurence for male drivers fair?

I completely agree and I always argue the same thing. Men are more likely to be involved in an accident because the vast majority of people driving are men. Either driving for work, to work or leisure with their OH where in most cases the man would drive.

I think the loading is there for men as men usually have a higher disposable income and are willing to sacrafice more of other goods to drive a higher powered car, more so than women.

Bluefoam

Men traditionally attach more personal value to their car & will pay to keep it even if the price is high - women traditionally have been less emotionally involved and if they believed the cost was too high they would give up their car and find other means of transport...

... so, if you were an insurance company, who would you hit for money?

Capital Slow

I wonder, as a foreign national, if you obtain the full Irish licence here in Ireland, does it still make a difference in insurance? I know they do ask you how many years have you been living in Ireland. I think it is still different for a 5-years-Irish-Full Irish licence-Holder and a 5-year-Foreign-Full Irish licence-Holder. If that's the case, would that constitute discrimination?

Any insider to shed some lights on this one?

fl4pj4ck

Capital Slow wrote: »

I wonder, as a foreign national, if you obtain the full Irish licence here in Ireland, does it still make a difference in insurance? I know they do ask you how many years have you been living in Ireland. I think it is still different for a 5-years-Irish-Full Irish licence-Holder and a 5-year-Foreign-Full Irish licence-Holder. If that's the case, would that constitute discrimination?

Any insider to shed some lights on this one?

there is a difference, a friend of mine once answered that he had an Irish licence and got a quote, when the papers came in he realised he was mistaken and rand the insurer to make things right and his premium went up

by the way: try to get a online quote and check both possibilities, we'll see

Esel

robbie99 wrote: »

Supervisional licenses. Brillliant.

I can see that word becoming common usage like ecomentalist.

I am a smartass. You are something else altogether. I'd like to see you do a long post in Lithuanian.

robbie99

esel wrote: »

I am a smartass. You are something else altogether. I'd like to see you do a long post in Lithuanian.

A personal attack

Esel, I thought that ShadowHearth's use of the word supervisional was brilliant, genius and was cracking me up with laughter! It is the type of word that I can imagine Jeremy Clarkson using if he wanted to refer derogatorily to the licenses held by those who are incapable of passing a driving test in much the same well as he uses the made up word ecomentalist instead of environmentalist. I'm sure such drivers are happy enough with their provisional licenses and find them super! My bad if I didn't make the connection clear in my post but I would have used the sarcastic smily in my post if I thought otherwise.

ShadowHearth, I apologise if you thought that I was poking fun at your post or spelling. I wasn't. I thought yours was a great post.

Esel

My apology is accepted, then.

robbie99

Apology accepted Esel

Traumadoc

Health insurance are not allowed discriminate . ( if they were womens health insurance would be much higher due to childbirth costs).

In Australia basic insurance is included in the road tax and is the same for everyone.
If you want full comp you pay extra privatly- real competition. If it is too expensive you did not have to buy it.

Trampas

Peoples insurance would be lower if all drivers had insurance

Currently everyone one who has car insurance are paying for people who don't

fl4pj4ck

Trampas wrote: »

Peoples insurance would be lower if all drivers had insurance

Currently everyone one who has car insurance are paying for people who don't

could you please elaborate?

Trampas

mikemac wrote: »

There is a 2% levy to cover uninsured drivers through the MIBI

Your policy is paying this as does everybody elses

Thats a government levy

Esel

Trampas wrote: »

Peoples insurance would be lower if all drivers had insurance

Currently everyone one who has car insurance are paying for people who don't

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

could you please elaborate?

MIBI

4arc

ShadowHearth wrote: »

In ireland:
A: i whant to drive,mister!
B: here you go ,sun, take this piece of paper and of you go on roads!

Then people get confused when so many drivers kill them selfs on roads. Still wondering why?

I think evryone should have to do their test every 5years or so, even a basic road safety refresher course, there are alot of sloppy drivers out there.

MadsL

I had a long fight with Quinn Direct in 2004 on this one.

See here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192883

My main argument was the if someone had actually passed a Irish driving test, they should be assessed as competant to drive in Ireland regardless of their driving history on whichever side of the road.

To quote a brand-new driver with a full Irish licence a lesser premium than (for example) a fully qualified American with 20 years of driving experience, with a full Irish licence, seem to me both nonsensical and discriminatory. And possibly illegal.

They still do ask "where you born" - but have agreed to drop the question "what is your nationality"

Type 17

MadsL wrote: »

I had a long fight with Quinn Direct in 2004 on this one.

See here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192883

My main argument was the if someone had actually passed a Irish driving test, they should be assessed as competant to drive in Ireland regardless of their driving history on whichever side of the road.

To quote a brand-new driver with a full Irish licence a lesser premium than (for example) a fully qualified American with 20 years of driving experience, with a full Irish licence, seem to me both nonsensical and discriminatory. And possibly illegal.

They still do ask "where you born" - but have agreed to drop the question "what is your nationality"

Although the US driver in your example has more experience, and would be less likely to have an accident than the new Irish driver, the loading comes from the fact that the US driver has had 20 years of being used to driving on the right, and is more likely to accidentally stray onto the wrong side of the road in Ireland, and these kind of accidents are likely to be much more serious than the average claim.

I'm not saying that I agree with any insurance company (especially Quinn!) that loads drivers from LHD/drive-on-right countries, but if they can prove that these drivers cause more claims, and that the claims are bigger (more serious accidents), then it's hard to argue against it.

Our man in Havana

Simple solution, exchange foreign licence on arrival in Ireland for a full Irish licence.

Phototoxin

Men have less RTCs the females, but men tend to collide with other objects at higher speeds so the claims are higher that's why we pay more

Yes. Science also shows us that the area of the female brain that deals with spatial awareness is not as well developed as in men. (tho men's emotional centres sligthly smallers) hence no female fighter jet pilots in the US.

Basically the reason they do it is because they are insurance companies who are all in cahoots to discriminate against men because they can.

Someone should take a case to the high court.

owenmakken

ninty9er wrote: »

Gender is binary, ergo stats based thereon are much easier to analyse.

Are all your posts that pretentious? ..Jesus like, you can just imagine you sitting there with your full length matrix style leather jacket typing that.

as for the insurance issue glad to hear they do charge different for different nationality, fair is fair - I just assumed in our PC mad world they wouldn't dare.

It'd be hilarious if they went the whole hog and asked your sexuality.

Capital Slow

Type 17 wrote: »

the loading comes from the fact that the US driver has had 20 years of being used to driving on the right, and is more likely to accidentally stray onto the wrong side of the road in Ireland, and these kind of accidents are likely to be much more serious than the average claim.

he would be quoated less if he claim he never drove on the other side;)

don't think Quinn will require the proof of no driving experience:D

Type 17

Capital Slow wrote: »

he would be quoated less if he claim he never drove on the other side;)

don't think Quinn will require the proof of no driving experience:D

Of course, if the American has a name like John Murphy, and signs up online (no accent to hear), then he probably wouldn't get loaded, but if a Myrtle Athena calls up with a Brooklyn accent, they probably will...

honkytonk52

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

it is, as one of the polish newspapers revealed, polish people have to pay more. how did they prove it? they rang companies twice, once with a polish lad speaking and the other time with an irish person, and try to insure the very same car.

the difference in quotes they got were as high as up to e200.

nuff said

Yeas as previously dais there is a Load on all licences which are not Irish, even if it is an UK licence there is still a load on it,i also work in insurance so i know this for a fact,200 in the difference in a bit much

Our man in Havana

Mainly because you can't get points on a foreign licence. Same carry on in the UK also.

Turbulent Bill

Phototoxin wrote: »

Yes. Science also shows us that the area of the female brain that deals with spatial awareness is not as well developed as in men. (tho men's emotional centres sligthly smallers) hence no female fighter jet pilots in the US.

Basically the reason they do it is because they are insurance companies who are all in cahoots to discriminate against men because they can.

Someone should take a case to the high court.

Rubbish, there are plenty of female fighter pilots in the US. Female spatial awareness is generally poorer than men's, but there's a lot more to flying than that.

I'm sure there's a degree of discrimination against men, but the claim figures seem to be clear: men = larger claims = more risk = higher premiums.

honkytonk52

Bond-007 wrote: »

Mainly because you can't get points on a foreign licence. Same carry on in the UK also.

Yes,that from my understanding is the main reason for it and not due to the fact elsewhere they drive on the other side of the road,any NON eu licence licence apart from Austarlia and south africa is considered as a prov licence in ireland

busman

Phototoxin wrote: »

Yes. Science also shows us that the area of the female brain that deals with spatial awareness is not as well developed as in men. (tho men's emotional centres sligthly smallers) hence no female fighter jet pilots in the US.

There was a least one!

http://www.america.gov/st/diversity-english/2005/June/20050628181938AEeebaraF0.8720362.html?CP.rss=true

pcardin

Daisy Dweller wrote: »

I work for an insurance co and can tell ya now that the policy holders country of origin can sometimes carry a loading. Reason being that some countries driving tests are held in flippin car parks!! Also, some countries full licenses are just considered as good as provisional licences here, so they can be refused insurance on those grounds....

Aw...tis just like working in telesales again...;)

Oh really?! Name at least one country!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Phototoxin wrote: »

Basically the reason they do it is because they are insurance companies who are all in cahoots to discriminate against men because they can.

Someone should take a case to the high court.

I honestly don't believe this is the case. If it were true and premiums were deliberately mis-matched to the underlying risk then any insurance company could step in and start offering accurate premiums and make an absolute fortune while doing it. All other companies would be force to adopt accurate pricing models or go under.

Stark

pcardin wrote: »

Oh really?! Name at least one country!

Quite a number of states in America have a ridiculously easy test. An American license is good for short term stays over here though; it can't be exchanged for a full Irish license. As far as I know, other EU countries have tests that are at least as comprehensive as ours (wouldn't be hard now would it?) and are of course exchangeable for full Irish licenses.