Should GSP have let the cat out of the bag? Discussion on fight science.

Dragan

For me, the whole greasing allogations are completely secondary to the main story behind BJ Penn VS GSP II, the scientific and exact dismantling of one of the most feared fighters on the planet.

GSP's camp and crew turned every strength of BJ's into a weakness, took advantage of them and then completely snowed him. I have been checking the stats of the fight, and each and every round GSP landed more strikes, got more dominant positions and all in all just carried out the perfect game plan.

They had BJ's CNS reset down, the had the fact that his hyper flexibility would lead to a weaker core, the had the effect of various types of action on his musculature and endurance. They basic had the blueprints to BJ and went to town on him.

My question is, should they have let out exactly HOW scientific their approach to this fight was? Now they cat is out of the bag i think it will change the way a lot of trainers and cornermen look at their fighters opposition.

Will we see a change in the landscape now that something as "simple" as science has dismantled a legend?

rovert

God no not freely. What is the point of creating a competitive advantage and just giving it away? But I agree that a more sports science approach to fighting is likely the next evolutionary step for MMA. Other fighters will eventually figure it out anyway evidentually.

T-K-O

No.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing - now I could beat GSP

Dragan

The big question is could someone who didnt have GSP skillset have carried off that type of victory against such world class opposition even with that level of prep and information going into the fight?

The Sparrow

Dragan wrote: »

The big question is could someone who didnt have GSP skillset have carried off that type of victory against such world class opposition even with that level of prep and information going into the fight?

No... not in my opinion anyway.

I think you are all over reacting a tad. Every fighter has a game plan and GSP simple told us his. And as it is unlikely that he will ever fight BJ again what does it matter to GSP who knows how he beat him?

Its not knew for fighters to analyse their opponents games and try and counteract their strengths. Sure Randy has being doing it forever. The only difference here is that it worked so spectacularly well.

And really it was just another dig at BJ to dissect his style after such a one-sided victory.

DeVore

This sort of science would be considered "rudimentary tinkering with a kids chemistry set" compared to say, sprinting or rowing etc.

The difference here is that they applied it (with great insight) to an opponent because of the nature of the sport.

I think its a natural progression in a sport where every edge is sought. i'd be pretty surprised if it didnt...

DeV.

DeVore

Dragan wrote: »

The big question is could someone who didnt have GSP skillset have carried off that type of victory against such world class opposition even with that level of prep and information going into the fight?

I would refine that further and say the REAL question is:

Is it possible there could be a fighter out there who would have lost against BJ normally but would have won if he had followed this line of analysis.

I would have to say, I would think so.

DeV.

The Sparrow

DeVore wrote: »

I would refine that further and say the REAL question is:

Is it possible there could be a fighter out there who would have lost against BJ normally but would have won if he had followed this line of analysis.

I would have to say, I would think so.

DeV.

So let's just take a name... say Joe Stephenson as Bj's victory was pretty empahtic over Joe. So are you saying that you believe that if Joe Daddy followed GSP's game plan that he would have won the fight against Penn??

I can't see it myself. Or is it just fighters that are nearly twenty pounds heavier that it would work for??

I can't see any 155 pound fighter beating BJ Penn just because they followed GSP's game plan.

DeVore

And one more from me....


Its possible that this is another tactic to inspire fear in the next opponent. Unlikely given it was an interview right after the fight but still... every fighter who comes up against GSP now is going to have it in the back of his mind that they have dissected his game and there will be an instinct to change things up , which is itself a small victory for GSP.

If that wasnt the intention, its still a good result for them from the comments!

DeV.

DeVore

woooo232 wrote: »

So let's just take a name... say Joe Stephenson as Bj's victory was pretty empahtic over Joe. So are you saying that you believe that if Joe Daddy followed GSP's game plan that he would have won the fight against Penn??

I can't see it myself. Or is it just fighters that are nearly twenty pounds heavier that it would work for??

I can't see any 155 pound fighter beating BJ Penn just because they followed GSP's game plan.

I didnt say that. Read what I wrote not what you think I wrote

I'm asking the question: Could we imagine a fictious fighter, whatever weight etc, who would lose to BJ normally, BUT with this insight, might in fact win.

DeV.

The Sparrow

DeVore wrote: »

I didnt say that. Read what I wrote not what you think I wrote

I'm asking the question: Could we imagine a fictious fighter, whatever weight etc, who would lose to BJ normally, BUT with this insight, might in fact win.

DeV.

I didn't say that you said that! I asked you if that was what you meant because I wasn't sure... Read what I wrote not what you think I wrote :):D

toggle

I dont think a fictitious fighter given GSP's tactics would help the fighter win against BJ.

The Sparrow

I agree. It is too hypothetical when you start talking about fictitious fighters. However I think it is fair to say that no fighters who BJ has previously beaten would have won if they had implemented GSP's strategy.

dunkamania

Agreed

Dragan

woooo232 wrote: »

I agree. It is too hypothetical when you start talking about fictitious fighters. However I think it is fair to say that no fighters who BJ has previously beaten would have won if they had implemented GSP's strategy.

I would agree with this. Even when they first met, had GSP this plan the physical tools simple were not there to take complete advantage.

cagefan

I think that regardless of wether an inferior fighter could have beaten BJ with the same game plan, its going to change how every fighter approachs there opponents from now on. Its great because it will add a new dimension to mma. Randy has been doing it but I've never heard him using things like the size of an opps shoulders..sure he looks at reach and skill differences but not to the extent in which GSP says in his interview

I think that this gameplan would be useless if you didn;t have the skills to execute it. Remember that BJ is VERY difficult to take down and is dangerous everywhere. GSP has the wrestling skill to execute this gameplan. But very few others do IMO.

DeVore

I respectfully contend that my thought-experiment has merit.

If our "fictitious fighter" who is almost as good as BJ can't be pushed over the top by the use of those sorts of plans then what value do they have?

If they cant help, even a little bit, they are irrelevant? No?


Conversely if they CAN make that tiny, all important difference then they are a step forward and I would expect them in every fighters toolbox in the future (sometime). (This is what I believe to be true, in case you were wondering).

Dragan's question was a different one, but for the future of this sort of science in MMA, I think my question is the crucial one. You'd want every significant edge going into the fight no?

DeV.

rovert

Sports science more or less is about shaving fractions of seconds off your personal best than being a magic elixir.

DeVore

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that this gameplan would be useless if you didn;t have the skills to execute it. Remember that BJ is VERY difficult to take down and is dangerous everywhere. GSP has the wrestling skill to execute this gameplan. But very few others do IMO.

I think thats a given.

If I fight BJ... well, we'll be looking for a new admin.

If Bj fights GOD.... one ex-BJ.

The only interesting and non-facile scenarios are where the fighters are so closely balanced that these little edges make all the difference.

DeV.

DeVore

rovert wrote: »

Sports science more or less is about shaving fractions of seconds off your personal best than being a magic elixir.

Exactly. I used to sprint for Ireland at the 16-17 age group and I would have glassed you for .1 of a second off my PB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2K5Rt8Mog8

DeV.

DeVore

DeVore wrote: »

I think thats a given.

If I fight BJ... well, we'll be looking for a new admin.

If Bj fights GOD.... one ex-BJ.

The only interesting and non-facile scenarios are where the fighters are so closely balanced that these little edges make all the difference.

DeV.

Yo Dev, quick Q, how long you been aa fan of MMA? Good to see ya venturing over these parts!

Em yea I know but I was kinda gettin at the point that I dont think there are many others in the game at that weight who have the skillsets to implement that gameplan on BJ tbh. Possibly Thiago (we'll see his title shot goes) and maybe Fitch and Kos but tbh I could see BJ beating all 3 of them.

DeVore

[off-toic]
I used to do a lot of MA/SD when I was a lad. My father was Irish amateur welterweight (I think) boxing champion. (I'm glad he never hit me as a kid, he has a powerful right hook even at 70).
He taught me how to defend myself but MA taught me how to control myself.

About 2 years ago, maybe less, a good friend of mine went to Thailand to study Muay Thai seriously, 8 hours a day, in a really good authentic MT camp. The story of me traveling to see him is linked in my sig (My Really Small Adventure). Most of it is a study of the asian way as seen by foreigners though.

I watched him take a pro fight in Taphe Stadium in Chang Mai and its as close as I want to get to Ong Bak (more controlled, less criminal obviously but still, pretty intense stuff!)

He is big into MMA and taught me the basics (the VERY basics) and also explained a great deal of the skill and art to it (half guard passing, take downs, the benefits of different styles) so I can watch a fight and appreciate a good guard pass or a quick transition to lock an arm bar.

I'm very much an armchair enthusiast though he's teaching me MT at the moment. My leg wouldnt allow me to compete seriously and I wouldnt anyway, but I can train hard and I'm more interested in the artform and the practical, self-defense aspects, but that doesnt mean I dont appreciate a good fight and the various styles of the fighters.

DeV.

DeVore

Deleted User wrote: »

Yo Dev, quick Q, how long you been aa fan of MMA? Good to see ya venturing over these parts!

Em yea I know but I was kinda gettin at the point that I dont think there are many others in the game at that weight who have the skillsets to implement that gameplan on BJ tbh. Possibly Thiago (we'll see his title shot goes) and maybe Fitch and Kos but tbh I could see BJ beating all 3 of them.

Yeah, thats the reality of the situation but thats established after the fact.

Analogy: if I knew I was going to walk a sprint competition, I wouldnt have pushed myself, but I cant know that in advance so I took every legal* advantage possible to get every edge I could. The same applies here to these fighters imho.

DeV.
*that was before they started turning sprinters into pharmacies.

jayoo

Hmmm same height, jet gsp has 6inch reach advantage
same weight yet gsp looks in amazing shape:cool: while bj looks pure soft:(, the fact that gsp had around a stone of lean muscle instead of bjs stone of fat would make a huge difference when comparing two top fighters.

ps this is just from an outside perspective as i havent followed both fighters indetail :pac:

Fozzy

jayoo wrote: »

Hmmm same height, jet gsp has 6inch reach advantage
same weight yet gsp looks in amazing shape:cool: while bj looks pure soft:(, the fact that gsp had around a stone of lean muscle instead of bjs stone of fat would make a huge difference when comparing two top fighters.

ps this is just from an outside perspective as i havent followed both fighters indetail :pac:

GSP cut 17lbs for the weigh-ins, BJ cut nothing, so there was a significant weight difference. They said that GSP was only one inch taller, but it looked a lot more than that

I don't think that GSP gave too much away really. It's not going to help BJ's future opponents that much. Even if they try to outwrestle him, none of them have the 19lbs weight advantage or the skills that GSP has

Gameplans very often don't work out. This just happened to be one that was well-researched and went perfectly

Roper

Fozzy wrote: »

Gameplans very often don't work out. This just happened to be one that was well-researched and went perfectly

Word. If BJ had won this would all be pie in the sky. Because GSP won it's all groundbreaking.

Everyone researches their opponents as thoroughly as possible, only an idiot wouldn't. I would venture for every CNS reset they assess and get right with an intelligent athlete like GSP, there'll be 5 guys who will just be confused and be over coached. It happens in every sport. Ever played full back? "He always goes to the left with ball in hand" and such. Then the guy cuts right for the first time in his life and you're left looking like a tit and he knocks one over and your team is denied promotion and you end up with a silver medal but I'm not bitter oh no.

Science gets you so far but GSP is special too.

Tim_Murphy

Roper wrote: »

Word. If BJ had won this would all be pie in the sky. Because GSP won it's all groundbreaking.

Everyone researches their opponents as thoroughly as possible, only an idiot wouldn't. I would venture for every CNS reset they assess and get right with an intelligent athlete like GSP, there'll be 5 guys who will just be confused and be over coached. It happens in every sport. Ever played full back? "He always goes to the left with ball in hand" and such. Then the guy cuts right for the first time in his life and you're left looking like a tit and he knocks one over and your team is denied promotion and you end up with a silver medal but I'm not bitter oh no.

Science gets you so far but GSP is special too.

Indeed. I'm struggling to see what the big deal is with this 'competitor had a gameplan' story.

DeVore

Yes, I mentioned above that this sort of science is fairly rudimentary in other sports but there is a big difference between:

"I'm going to keep the fight standing up and not let him use his JJ skills"

and

"we've studied his CNS response times and he's fast reacting but his reset is slow and can be exploited".

DeV.

Mikel

The guy had a gameplan, good for him and well executed, but big deal.

This business about CNS resets, I'd wager that every boxing coach examines opponents to see how fast they take their hands back after a punch and what gaps they leave, common sense really.
Same when they're blocking.

Small shoulders, filling with fluid? Wtf?
Do small shoulders fill with blood more than big shoulders?
Possibly, but maybe big shoulders need more blood and get more fatigued, who knows?
But saying 'I'm bigger stronger and the better wrestler, I wanted to tire him out so his punches and ground game wouldn't be so effective'
doesn't sound so impressive.

What he came out with sounded like mumbo jumbo to me.
I wouldn't be surprised if the motivation was to cast his coach as some kind of oracle, try to get into his future opponents heads a little.
Maybe get them to second guess themselves,

On the subject of game plans, they come off and you're a genius, they don't and well.....
See Tom Egan in the UFC, going to plan, makes a mistake and game over.
Nobody's a genius that day

Tim_Murphy

On the subject of game plans, they come off and you're a genius, they don't and well.....
See Tom Egan in the UFC, going to plan, makes a mistake and game over.

That was going to plan? :eek:

Dragan

Mikel wrote: »

On the subject of game plans, they come off and you're a genius, they don't and well.....
See Tom Egan in the UFC, going to plan, makes a mistake and game over.
Nobody's a genius that day

I wouldn't say that Tom's night was going to plan, with all respect to the chap he was simply outclassed by someone with better wrestler and it was evident from quite early in the fight that the gap in wrestling abilities was just a bit too much for Tom to overcome.

With regard to GSP plan, i think it's a bit foolish to dismiss it as mumbo jumbo. Where previously people only spoke of Penn in terms of strengths with one weakness, GSP goes out and thouroughly dismantles him, speaks of his strengths as weaknesses and you don't think that extra knowledge helped him in any way?

cowzerp

I believe they had a plan but it was nothing ground breaking, he's bigger, stronger and just played to his strenghts-wrestling mainly; plus the lube messed up BJ's defense in the position they where most likely to end up in if GSP took him down.

BJ does not have a weak core either, flexibility does not predispose someone to be weak in any area unless they never trained through there full range of movement.

GSP camp are just trying to big themselves up and the next opponent of similar strenght to BJ to try this plan will lose because the plan is less scientific and more fighters using there strenghts, and no one has equal strenghts as GSP at light weight.

Plans are great but fighters have to do the real work and i'd say plans can go out the window very easily..

Dragan

cowzerp wrote: »

BJ does not have a weak core either, flexibility does not predispose someone to be weak in any area unless they never trained through there full range of movement.

Paul, you are a trainer and a fighter, so this question is specifically for you. Do you feel the injury Penn suffered against Hughes in their second fight lends credence to the idea that BJ has a weak core? Or do you think it was just a freak injury picked up over the course of the fight?

cowzerp

Dragan wrote: »

Paul, you are a trainer and a fighter, so this question is specifically for you. Do you feel the injury Penn suffered against Hughes in their second fight lends credence to the idea that BJ has a weak core? Or do you think it was just a freak injury picked up over the course of the fight?

The rib injury in my opinion was a freak injury and during scrambles these things can occur-just like pulling your hamstring when you go to sprint without preparing, could be weakness or just a freak accident, in saying that, it could also be a sign of a weakness in BJ'S core-but as i believe he does not have this weakness i'd have to go with freak accident.

He's definetly not lean looking but as you know this does not mean his muscles are weak..its speculation at best TBH.

Mikel

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

That was going to plan? :eek:

To be fair that's not my assessment but that of his coach
http://ringoftruth.info/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=579

the fight itself went pretty much how we thought round 1 was going to go...apart from the last 15seconds of course. we knew john would be a little bigger and stronger and would want to get a takedown and use ground and pound, its what he's known for. our job was to initiate scrambles and get back to the feet. hopefully tire john out and start the offence in round 2. i thought tom did a fantastic job of defending himself on his back. if you look at his face he barely has a mark, it was the 2 hard elbows to the back of the ear at the end of the round that lost him the fight. at 20 tom is doing incredible but he does only have 3 (now 4) pro fights and that error at the end (giving the back with 20seconds to go) is something i know he defineatly wont do again. the plan was defineatly working as john was slowing down considerably and tom took very little damage and was getting back to his feet very well. but fair play to john the one major mistake tom made he capitolised on 100% and didnt let him out.

Dragan wrote:

With regard to GSP plan, i think it's a bit foolish to dismiss it as mumbo jumbo. Where previously people only spoke of Penn in terms of strengths with one weakness, GSP goes out and thouroughly dismantles him, speaks of his strengths as weaknesses and you don't think that extra knowledge helped him in any way?

I didn't say he didn't have a plan and executed it, I said the pseudo scientific nature of his explanation of it sounded to me like mumbo jumbo