Start up costs and issues to become full Energy rater and solutions provider??

Anno

Hi Folks,

I recently became unemployed and I am looking into starting a small company which would do BER ratings, thermal imaging, air tightness, energy audits, energy management and energy solutions in my area. I'm doing my own research into start up costs (courses and qualifications, equipment, website, insurance, transport, membership associations etc) but i guess i would like to maybe get some info or a feel off people out there that may have experiences in this field.

My educational background is in engineering. It is in Chemical and Process which would not have touched on building ratings but would have dealt with heat transfer and U values so i feel comfortable with the technical side of things once i have the necessary courses done.

So folks, if you could spare a few mins to write back your thoughts, outlining steps that you may have followed, equipment and qualification costs etc, it would be greatly appreciated.

Anno

brianmacl

Anno wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I recently became unemployed and I am looking into starting a small company which would do BER ratings, thermal imaging, air tightness, energy audits, energy management and energy solutions in my area. I'm doing my own research into start up costs (courses and qualifications, equipment, website, insurance, transport, membership associations etc) but i guess i would like to maybe get some info or a feel off people out there that may have experiences in this field.

My educational background is in engineering. It is in Chemical and Process which would not have touched on building ratings but would have dealt with heat transfer and U values so i feel comfortable with the technical side of things once i have the necessary courses done.

So folks, if you could spare a few mins to write back your thoughts, outlining steps that you may have followed, equipment and qualification costs etc, it would be greatly appreciated.

Anno

for the start up cost doing resi stuff I would not advise it, unless you can tie in other services that you know people actually need and will pay for.

You got to ask yourself how will you get bussiness?
why will people choos you over another assessor?

If you can do commercial property that is better.

But I would be more worried in the practicle side of the work. over the next couple of years I would suggest there is a good chance that people will be sued over these assessments. knowing about property, age, types of construction, will be very handy.

Without a practicle background in property it might be a risky move. There might be a big start up cost and it could be very tough to get bussiness in.

there are a lot of people that have been let go with the same idea as you.

4arc

I found myself unemployed a few months ago and the BER route sounded good, coming from an architectural background.

But once i scratched at the surface, all was not what well! serious fees for courses and 'registration' running into the several thousand, just to get started, not to mention all the other costs associated with starting a new business, which you've mentioned above.

Everyone seems to be a BER assessor these days with official figures of members in the thousands. Private companies are churning out BER assessors for profit. The notice board in my local Dunnes is full of BER business cards. Recent media reports about inconsistencies, rapidly falling prices that assessors are charging and collusion with auctioneers in order to get work seriously put me off.

Now i'm not a BER assessor and someone who is can come and challenge any of these points if they feel i'm being unfair to the new industry.

I have however, seen handsome salaries offered to BER assessor's on the FAS jobs website so maybe working for an established company might be the way to go.

I would be interested to know what kind of equipment (and prices) is needed to set up as a BER assessor.

Proceed cautiously and do your homework!

Good Luck!

MEONLY

Anno wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I recently became unemployed and I am looking into starting a small company which would do BER ratings, thermal imaging, air tightness, energy audits, energy management and energy solutions in my area. I'm doing my own research into start up costs (courses and qualifications, equipment, website, insurance, transport, membership associations etc) but i guess i would like to maybe get some info or a feel off people out there that may have experiences in this field.

My educational background is in engineering. It is in Chemical and Process which would not have touched on building ratings but would have dealt with heat transfer and U values so i feel comfortable with the technical side of things once i have the necessary courses done.

So folks, if you could spare a few mins to write back your thoughts, outlining steps that you may have followed, equipment and qualification costs etc, it would be greatly appreciated.

Anno

I have been quoted almost €8000 for blower door & Thermal Imiging Camera. I'm told its a special (good) deal.
General advice to Anno & 4Arc : Think very carefully before commiting. You would need a day job with BER. You might have some hope if you operated in the largest cities. Forget about rural Ireland :

Chimpster

MEONLY wrote: »

I have been quoted almost €8000 for blower door & Thermal Imiging Camera. I'm told its a special (good) deal.
General advice to Anno & 4Arc : Think very carefully before commiting. You would need a day job with BER. You might have some hope if you operated in the largest cities. Forget about rural Ireland :

Lads, be very carefull.

I would think twice about that camera/blower door option. It seems very cheap and I would wonder about the quality of the equipment.

We got into this game in late 2007 and its been tough. We spent over 30K on a proper camera and a reputable blower door.

Factor in the following:

Yearly calibration of guage and possibly of fan also? €1000
Membership of NSAI scheme? possibly €2000
Calibration of camera ? Not sure on price but should be done every 2/3 years at minimum.

The BER cert game is all about volume. Unless your turning over a certain amount of certs every month then you wont survive on it. Margins are tight and landlords just want a 'fcuking cert' so the majority of propety owners wont give two hoots about getting a proper improvement report.

We are still alive and things are busy now but its all down to the serious ground work that went in all through 2008.

Enter this business at your will but be warned its a tough battle ground out there at the minute. The key to making a sucess of the business is having a simple process of doing things by the book and sticking to that, in the long term you'll have no worries about potential legal issues that could occur.

All the best with your decision.

MEONLY

Chimpster wrote: »

Lads, be very carefull.

I would think twice about that camera/blower door option. It seems very cheap and I would wonder about the quality of the equipment.

We got into this game in late 2007 and its been tough. We spent over 30K on a proper camera and a reputable blower door.

Factor in the following:

Yearly calibration of guage and possibly of fan also? €1000
Membership of NSAI scheme? possibly €2000
Calibration of camera ? Not sure on price but should be done every 2/3 years at minimum.

The BER cert game is all about volume. Unless your turning over a certain amount of certs every month then you wont survive on it. Margins are tight and landlords just want a 'fcuking cert' so the majority of propety owners wont give two hoots about getting a proper improvement report.

We are still alive and things are busy now but its all down to the serious ground work that went in all through 2008.

Enter this business at your will but be warned its a tough battle ground out there at the minute. The key to making a sucess of the business is having a simple process of doing things by the book and sticking to that, in the long term you'll have no worries about potential legal issues that could occur.

All the best with your decision.

WOW :eek::eek::eek:. That much money. This might imply that you would need to have the calibrations done or face possible allegations regarding the quality of your assessments.
Q 1.How much would it cost to rent/hire this equiptment?
Q 2. Is rent/hire on a daily basis? or what?

4arc

Chimpster wrote: »

Lads, be very carefull.

We got into this game in late 2007 and its been tough. We spent over 30K on a proper camera and a reputable blower door.
.

WOW! i had no idea it required that much capital imput. Knew it was proving difficult to make money in it at the moment, but well established companies should be able to make the most of the up-turn when/ if it comes.

legs akimbo.

4arc wrote: »

WOW! i had no idea it required that much capital imput. Knew it was proving difficult to make money in it at the moment, but well established companies should be able to make the most of the up-turn when/ if it comes.

Yep, should supplement the old age pension nicely

MEONLY

legs akimbo. wrote: »

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Yep, should supplement the old age pension nicely

You really serious that there's going to be one? I'v lost over 25% of my private pension investment and thats only up until December 2008. I'm afraid to check what it is now.:(

Carlow52

brianmacl wrote: »

...over the next couple of years I would suggest there is a good chance that people will be sued over these assessments....
.

This risk has been the subject of much debate, some accurate, some anecdotal.

For the benefit of others, can someone who knows about the 'being sued' risks pen a few lines thereon and perhaps venture a figure for the required PII?
Thanks

ps if the cert is valid for 10 years I presume the liability expires then also.

ScottishDanny

An interesting thread

I want/need a career change and I am interested in working in renewable energy (BER, Air Pressure testing, thermal imaging etc).

However I don’t have a degree in a relevant discipline. I have a PG Diploma in Computer Science (NFQ Level 9) and a BA(Hons) in History (NFQ Level 8).

I have seen interesting courses at DIT but they require the applicant to be working in the construction industry. Can anyone recommend a 'conversion' courses for someone wanting to work in this field? I am flexible on full or part time and anything from Level 6 construction studies upwards.

Otherwise can you recommend who I should contact to find out about careers and education in the industry?

Thanks

Danny

SilverBER

If you dont mind me sticking my 2 cents in. I did the BER course because I thought it would benefit my business. When work became tight I registered as an assessor but the above comments are quite correct. Some assessors are doing BERs for €87. I have been ticking over but not making money and I reckon the total costs in setting up were in the region of 5K and I havent seen that money back yet - I doubt if I ever will, upturn or not, because I am independent. For example, I gave a quote for a block of 48 apartments in Dublin to a builder friend of mine last week. I quoted him a bulk fee of €125 plus VAT per unit. He emailed me yesterday to say he was getting them done by the Lettings Dept. of a big name estate agency (no names no recriminations) for free if he gave them the renting and management contract. How can anyone compete with 'FREE'?
If I had my time over again I wouldn't bother.

ScottishDanny

Thanks for the comments SilverBER,

the BER thing is not specifically where I want to be, I'm interested in getting involved in green/renewable technologies within construction at a broader level. Im being made redundant after 10 years in IT in September, so Im trying to be positive about it and see it as an opportunity to get away from that and do something that interests me. Its hard to find anywhere in industry that is doing well at the moment but I hoped I could get into a course for 1-3 years that will stand me in good stead for when the recovery starts.

Carlow52

ScottishDanny wrote: »

Thanks for the comments SilverBER,

the BER thing is not specifically where I want to be, I'm interested in getting involved in green/renewable technologies within construction at a broader level. Im being made redundant after 10 years in IT in September, so Im trying to be positive about it and see it as an opportunity to get away from that and do something that interests me. Its hard to find anywhere in industry that is doing well at the moment but I hoped I could get into a course for 1-3 years that will stand me in good stead for when the recovery starts.

Sorry to hear u get the P45:(

Consider doing something online in the RE etc business: look at all the tech quidance docs u can, consider learning how to use some of the online U value calculators such on [i think] build.co.uk and if u dont have any site experience, get a digi camera and take loads of pics of whatever site works u can come across and study them.
Best of luck

sinnerboy

This will pass everybody . In my 25 year career so far I have worked overseas ( had to ) and even spent 6 months on the scratcher in London .

I didn't die .

No condition is permanent this time will pass - and get better

Little Dog

Anno,
Sorry to hear your predicement, I was in a similar position 8 months ago. I deceided to go down the route that you are considering. My background is construction with over 20 years experience here and abroad. My investement so far including equipement , insurances , training ,website , advertising etc is approx €25,000. I started after my reg. with SEI in jan 09. My return to date 3 jobs €725.
I have given it everything i can numerous phonecalls,site visits, newspaper articles etc from what i gather people are just not that interested.
So i would encourage you to think carefully before you invest what ever redundancy you receive because at the moment the returns are very small.
Best of luck in whatever you do,
Little dog

ScottishDanny

Sounds like Im back to square one! Thanks for the input guys

Danny

sinnerboy

taken from SEI site

In assessing the business opportunity for you as a BER assessor, SEI would strongly advise all applicants to review the number of BER assessors on the National Register of Assessors who are already servicing your intended target area. There is no cap on the number of BER Assessors who can operate in Ireland and all applicants should ensure that they are happy with the potential business opportunity before investing money in registering with SEI.

As of 28th of April 2009 there were over 2,663 registered assessors. A total of 6,341 people (including those currently registered) have successfully completed BER Assessor training courses. It is expected that some proportion of these qualified people can be expected to go on to register with SEI.

SEI estimates that the equivalent of 1,000 full time active BER assessors would be required to meet the demands of the residential BER market.

SilverBER

Says it all!

d'Oracle

Anno wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I recently became unemployed and I am looking into starting a small company which would do BER ratings, thermal imaging, air tightness, energy audits, energy management and energy solutions in my area. I'm doing my own research into start up costs (courses and qualifications, equipment, website, insurance, transport, membership associations etc) but i guess i would like to maybe get some info or a feel off people out there that may have experiences in this field.

I dont want to put you off, but I think you may need to change the focus a bit.

For a start there is a lot of noise about Thermal Imaging and blower door tests. I don't like it. If you look at the bigger picture you will see that they are luxuries.

The Blower Door, as I see it, is only useful for hi-spec new builds where airtightness work has been done or to improve the airtightness for a BER, in which case they are absurdly poor value given the effect it will have in most homes. It is a useful service for architects and contractors.

Thermal Imaging is also high cost but really is no substitute for expertise.
Its a pretty picture, but not worth the money. At best all the thermal image tells you can be summed up and considered in about 5 min. Its vaguely useful for rennovating architects or contractors NOT as part of a small business.

These technologies are being touted by providers and trainers as useful, the reality is they are niche business and not a good investment.

I really think that the big opportunity in the business now is for contractors who can do the business. There are plenty private and public energy agencies around. Lot of competition.

Good luck though.

sydthebeat

d'Oracle wrote: »

The Blower Door, as I see it, is only useful for hi-spec new builds where airtightness work has been done or to improve the airtightness for a BER, in which case they are absurdly poor value given the effect it will have in most homes. It is a useful service for architects and contractors.
.

i agree with a lot of what youve posted 'oracle, but i just want to comment on the above.

'blower door' testing will be compulsory for all new dwelling builds from 1st july onward. therefore they arent a luxury but a real requirement. whilst there may be 'some' room for expansion into this market.. you would need a large financial outlay before starting up...

d'Oracle

sydthebeat wrote: »

i agree with a lot of what youve posted 'oracle, but i just want to comment on the above.

'blower door' testing will be compulsory for all new dwelling builds from 1st july onward. therefore they arent a luxury but a real requirement. whilst there may be 'some' room for expansion into this market.. you would need a large financial outlay before starting up...

I will admit I didnt know that.
That said, smart contractors/ architects will probably absorb that themselves. I wouldn't touch it, but I'm not exactly a bubbling optimist.

MicktheMan

d'Oracle wrote: »

I dont want to put you off, but I think you may need to change the focus a bit.

For a start there is a lot of noise about Thermal Imaging and blower door tests. I don't like it. If you look at the bigger picture you will see that they are luxuries.

The Blower Door, as I see it, is only useful for hi-spec new builds where airtightness work has been done or to improve the airtightness for a BER, in which case they are absurdly poor value given the effect it will have in most homes. It is a useful service for architects and contractors.

Thermal Imaging is also high cost but really is no substitute for expertise.
Its a pretty picture, but not worth the money. At best all the thermal image tells you can be summed up and considered in about 5 min. Its vaguely useful for rennovating architects or contractors NOT as part of a small business.

These technologies are being touted by providers and trainers as useful, the reality is they are niche business and not a good investment.

I really think that the big opportunity in the business now is for contractors who can do the business. There are plenty private and public energy agencies around. Lot of competition.

Good luck though.

D'Oracle, I do not agree with this. Blower door testing and TI techniques are extremely effective tools in isolating causes of heatloss in existing buildings - in the hands of properly trained and experienced practisioners. Also, especially with TI, the quality of the equipment is vitally important in the effectiveness of the tool. I would not be without either tool when doing an energy survey. However, you are right that they are no replacement for expertise.
The other importance of the blower door (especially in the existing market) is to show the client, first hand, what air tightness (or lack thereof) means. IMO, there is a complete misunderstanding and lack of knowledge in general between the difference between insulation and airtightness and between air infiltration and ventilation.
The investment in the equipment may not be a "good investment" for the get rich quick merchants, but are vital tools if you are in this business for the long haul and are prepared to put the effort in. Remember, these are tools, no different from a carpenter's chopsaw. You know the old saying - poor workmen and all that!
Mick

d'Oracle

MicktheMan wrote: »

D'Oracle, I do not agree with this. Blower door testing and TI techniques are extremely effective tools in isolating causes of heatloss in existing buildings - in the hands of properly trained and experienced practisioners. Also, especially with TI, the quality of the equipment is vitally important in the effectiveness of the tool. I would not be without either tool when doing an energy survey. However, you are right that they are no replacement for expertise.
The other importance of the blower door (especially in the existing market) is to show the client, first hand, what air tightness (or lack thereof) means. IMO, there is a complete misunderstanding and lack of knowledge in general between the difference between insulation and airtightness and between air infiltration and ventilation.
The investment in the equipment may not be a "good investment" for the get rich quick merchants, but are vital tools if you are in this business for the long haul and are prepared to put the effort in. Remember, these are tools, no different from a carpenter's chopsaw. You know the old saying - poor workmen and all that!
Mick

Look, my problem isn't the use of these techniques.

Their value is as part of a complete energy survey.
If your business uses them as part of a study into a potential fix and generates a report which a customer can understand, great.
But people are looking at these as standalone solutions, or first up go to.
And thats not them

recedite

Whatever about the merits of blower doors and TI cameras,these are add-on services and are not needed to do a BER assessment.Maybe for an "Energy Survey".All that is really needed for a BER is a measuring tape, a stepladder, a computer loaded with DEAP , a car, and the important bit; the knowledge. For someone with an engineering degree there seems to be work available doing commercial BER's, but in the domestic area the big problem is there is not enough work out there given the number of assessors.
I have to take issue with an earlier post by SiverBER ;
"For example, I gave a quote for a block of 48 apartments in Dublin to a builder friend of mine last week. I quoted him a bulk fee of €125 plus VAT per unit. He emailed me yesterday to say he was getting them done by the Lettings Dept. of a big name estate agency (no names no recriminations) for free if he gave them the renting and management contract. How can anyone compete with 'FREE'?
If I had my time over again I wouldn't bother. "
That is illegal, the estate agents cannot handle the sale or rent of those apartments for the lifespan of the BER Cert ie. 10 years.
If you don't report this kind of thing to SEI you are killing us all.They have already said they will actively follow up any abuses of the system.If we won't bother to help ourselves then we can't complain about SEI.

MicktheMan

d'Oracle wrote: »

Look, my problem isn't the use of these techniques.

Their value is as part of a complete energy survey.
If your business uses them as part of a study into a potential fix and generates a report which a customer can understand, great.
But people are looking at these as standalone solutions, or first up go to.
And thats not them

D'Oracle,
I have replied to the other thread before reading your post here. I think we can agree about using the equipment as tools, and as you say not solutions.
Perhaps the people who propose the techniques as solutions aught to be rubbished instead of the equipment!

Mick.

SilverBER

recedite wrote: »

I have to take issue with an earlier post by SiverBER ;
"For example, I gave a quote for a block of 48 apartments in Dublin to a builder friend of mine last week. I quoted him a bulk fee of €125 plus VAT per unit. He emailed me yesterday to say he was getting them done by the Lettings Dept. of a big name estate agency (no names no recriminations) for free if he gave them the renting and management contract. How can anyone compete with 'FREE'?
If I had my time over again I wouldn't bother. "
That is illegal, the estate agents cannot handle the sale or rent of those apartments for the lifespan of the BER Cert ie. 10 years.
If you don't report this kind of thing to SEI you are killing us all.They have already said they will actively follow up any abuses of the system.If we won't bother to help ourselves then we can't complain about SEI.

I got the builder to email me the correspondence from the agent concerned and I forwarded this to <Snip> in SEI but he never did anything about it ...yet. If SEI dont care what can one do? BTW the guy who sent the email is registered as an assessor on the SEI list as working for a different estate agency while on his email he is listed as a Director of another one. There is plenty for SEI to work with but I doubt if they will even follow it up.




Mod edit: We dont need individuals names here. Cheers.

recedite

SilverBER wrote: »

I got the builder to email me the correspondence from the agent concerned and I forwarded this to <Snip> in SEI but he never did anything about it ...yet. If SEI dont care what can one do? BTW the guy who sent the email is registered as an assessor on the SEI list as working for a different estate agency while on his email he is listed as a Director of another one. There is plenty for SEI to work with but I doubt if they will even follow it up.




Mod edit: We dont need individuals names here. Cheers.

So, the plot thickens. Fair play to you SilverBER you have done your bit then.The ball is now squarely in SEI,s court. It should be a simple matter for them to contact the guy and ask him which agency he represents.If he works for both, then he still can't do those assessments, and the IAVI might have issues with him as well.

SilverBER

Sorry muffler, I tried to keep names out of it but the excitement got the better of me.

SilverBER

recedite wrote: »

So, the plot thickens. Fair play to you SilverBER you have done your bit then.The ball is now squarely in SEI,s court. It should be a simple matter for them to contact the guy and ask him which agency he represents.If he works for both, then he still can't do those assessments, and the IAVI might have issues with him as well.

My experience with the IAVI is that they are an opportunistic bunch and I would very much doubt that SEI would pursue any issues with anyone. This has to be handled swiftly by SEI but will they have the stomach for it? I dont think so - The last time that they were engaged by IAVI they backed down pretty quickly. They are great at hiding behind email addresses and call centres and won't engage with anyone on a real level. They pay lip service to the rules and take the pay check while covering their asses at every turn. The problem is that the systems they put in place from training to enforcement are flawed and they won't accept that. This is to the detriment of the whole energy performance industry and it is a shame. The bottom line here is that estate agents, hairdressers, accountants and other such non construction related career people should not be allowed to register as BER assessors.
I sent an email to SEI some time ago to object to the way bercert.com were allowed to use the SEI logo and NAS system on their website. I mentioned in passing that a friend of mine who is a Garda was of a similar viewpoint as me and the reply I got back was couched in indignant terms. It also included a reference that Gardai did not satisfy the criteria for BER registration. I further replied that it would be impossible for SEI to know what criteria to apply when there was no requirement at registration stage to produce certified qualifications to establish an assessors background - I heard nothing further about it since then.

trad

*********************

My thoughts on the matter is that BER is like the NCT, it's here to stay so it has to be creditable and sustainable. Because of the actions of the few who work for peanuts they are reducing the rates to totally uneconomic. Maybe they are trying to get a few quid together to head off to Aus or Canada and are not interested in ethics or proper record keeping.

I can see the papers doing an expose on the large estate agents who have their own BER companies in house and highlight the conflict of interest.

What I would like to see is the BER becomes like any other service regulated by the State, set rates same as NCT, Legal Metrology, Taxis etc.
Heavy Goods Vehicle testing is a good example. Every category has a set price, with extra costs per axle so the pricing is transparent, so it's a matter of repute and availability not just cost.