Wind turbine experiences - please post here

quentingargan

CORR75 wrote: »

I have also been looking at some of the self build options which looks interesting , what would be great if it was posssibe in conjunction with the ESB to get a turbine and a price per KW that would bring payback close to the 10 Year mark. I will keep my fingers crossed.

You can certainly self-build a turbine if you are an enthusiast. See http://www.scoraigwind.com/

You can hook up any turbine to the grid. The ESB is only concerned that the grid tie inverter is EN50438 compliant (with their unique variables for Ireland) but they don't care if it is getting its juice from Granny on a bicycle with a dynamo. Q

bladespin

richiekilkelly wrote: »

The wizzmill is €1950 + Vat which is not bad if it only does half of what they say it will do. If I came across a 2.5kW grid tied turbine for around €5k I would buy it straight away.

franlk wrote: »

I've been asked to sell this product and i would love to know how you got on..cheers

I understand your point but I'd have other questions for them, if their production claims are so far off the mark and obviously miscalculated I'd be worried about the build quality of the product too.

A turbine, even a small one is a machine that works with extreme forces, you have to be sure they can withstand these, there have been several catastrophic failures of cheap Chinese trubines, it's just pure luck that someone hasn't been seriously hurt by one of these.

Link

I wouldn't take any chances with quality.

keepitreal

that link you sent me was an 850kw or bigger based in Denmark. I know someone who visited the site. there was a total failure of everything behind the hub including the braking system. this would not really be a comparison. however i have been part of tests that ran a 12kw simulating a total failure similar to this. the monople was 6mm angled steel . they were chinese blades. it cut through the steel after the blade structure itself failed.

we predicted the maximum flight path of a broken piece of blade from its weakest point and it would have flown over 450 meters. :eek: with a lethal impact. one broke before i came on board and it stuck 15 inches into the ground. it was only 1.8 meters to start.

Gale

franlk wrote: »

I've been asked to sell this product and i would love to know how you got on..cheers

so have i Fran, i think i coukld definetly sell it, but it is up on 4800 inc vat installed, if it breaks down nest year are they going to come out and take it down of the pole and fix it, if not the neighbours i sold it to - what are they going to think of me? i suppose you have the same problem with any windmill you buy? do you know any one who bought one?

Mazotasan

Am loving the thoughts of self building my own turbine. Have been checking out the link posted by Quentin there and it does seem quite doable. Was thinking of something in the order of 5KW...
Would I be mad in thinking I could do it for around €5k complete grid connected? If I was to do it can the deap software handle diy turbines?
What are the major advantages/disadvantages of upwind as opposed to downwind? the majority of equipment out there seems to be geared towards upwind...

quentingargan

My understanding is that the DEAP software wants to know the KwHr per annum that your turbine can produce, and no BER assessor is going to accept figures that aren't certified. Certification at present costs STG£70K, so that probably would rock the budget a bit.

My own view is that you can get an assessor to do a "what if" option - to give you a letter saying that if you fitted a turbine producing 10MwHrs per year, it would change your house from B3 to B1 or whatever. Anyone buying a house who is interested in the BER rating would have an ability to understand the issues - particularly if they are about to inherit a home-made turbine!

A grid-tie inverter for a 5Kw machine will set you back about €2K to €2,500, and you will need some protective electronics with that to prevent it ever going over-voltage. Hugh Piggott usually recommends starting small rather than being so ambitious, but you could probably do the rest of the work within that sort of budget.

My reservation is with guyed turbines. I prefer free-standing as they are more durable and less accident prone. A quality free standing one will set you back another €2,500 or so, but that bit will last for many turbines. To be honest, in most installations, the generator isn't the expensive part. You could get a proper tower, proper inverter, run good cables, and then make a generator. If the generator beats you, then you have a reasonable foundation for a generator from someone else.

Mazotasan

Yes totally agree with you on the monopoles. I can make a standard fixed monopole relatively cheap...just will make the maintenance more of a pain in the ass. Will do some more homework and gonna purchase an anemometer and little datalogger and install onsite whilst the build is going on to get some hardcore figures as a starting point...appreciate the advice.

quentingargan

Mazotasan wrote: »

Yes totally agree with you on the monopoles. I can make a standard fixed monopole relatively cheap...just will make the maintenance more of a pain in the ass. Will do some more homework and gonna purchase an anemometer and little datalogger and install onsite whilst the build is going on to get some hardcore figures as a starting point...appreciate the advice.

I'd suggest a hinged monopole. You can either use a hydraulic ram to lift it, or a gin-pole (with a Tirfor winch). If you are thinking of making your own turbine, it is going to be coming up and down quite a bit while you sort out teething issues (believe me, I've been there....). I use a hydraulic ram which is quite pain-free. Can be raised and lowered with hydraulics of a tractor.

Q

BopNiblets

Hi guys, has anyone had any experience with this wind turbine?
http://www.airbreeze.com

Seems interesting, thanks.

quentingargan

BopNiblets wrote: »

Hi guys, has anyone had any experience with this wind turbine?

I haven't used this particular turbine, but it does require batteries and low-volt inverters. Most of these small turbines are designed to trickle-charge batteries for live-aboard yachts or caravans, and they are generally robust and reliable. I lived with an Ampair one for three years and it produced enought juice to keep radios and lights, but not a fridge.

It all depends what you want it for. If you have a small remote chalet with no grid and modest electricity requirements, it would do the job, but leisure batteries and low-voltage inverters are generally about 70% efficient overall.

Our house currently runs on a low-volt off-grid system because grid-tie wasn't an option at the time (7 years ago). If you have the grid, I would prefer grid tie. Its hassle free and much more efficient and cost effective. If you need to be off-grid, you should check that the turbine output over a year will match your requirements with a considerable surplus to spare for inefficiency. You probably should have a generator to top-up the batteries during long calm spells because letting them get low and stay low shortens their life. Q

BopNiblets

Heh, no remote living, I live in a housing estate! I'm just interested in the technology!

I saw a guy on Grand Designs on tv with one, he lived out in the woods in the UK and had one in connection with a few solar panels, looked cool.

Dickerty

Is it possible to get a small turbine that would attach to a chimney, for example? I live in a normal north Dublin street, but the layout gives us reasonably unobstructed wind from south and north.

Not expecting to sell any power back, just want to get lower bills and reduce my consumption.

Tx.

keepitreal

what my research has shown is with mini turbines (those you can retrofit to your house or shed) do not pay themselves back in any resonable time period (15 years). the energy they produce is very suitable for charging batteries for remote facilities such as power stations or boats where mains can't reach or is to costly.
if you are looking for a saving then i can't recommend mini turbines. in sub-urban areas i would explore solar panels as these will yield a far greater saving albeit costing more in general.

quentingargan

Dickerty wrote: »

Is it possible to get a small turbine that would attach to a chimney, for example? I live in a normal north Dublin street, but the layout gives us reasonably unobstructed wind from south and north.

Not expecting to sell any power back, just want to get lower bills and reduce my consumption.

Tx.

Agree with Keepitreal on this. Wind turbines are simply not for urban areas. Buildings cause turbulance which decimates the output of a turbine. See more on this here

Besides, concrete has no tensile strength, so unless a building has been very specifically designed to accommodate a turbine, including systems for controlling resonance, the turbine may well damage the building.

keepitreal

it would be important to differenciate between mini and small wind turbines.
Mini Turbines would be ones you could pick up in your hand easily, and were originally designed for the use on small boats or remote sensor stations. they typically would have a wing span (total) of less than 1m.

Tubines discribed as small turbines are opposed to large wind turbines used in wind farms.
small wind turbines would generally be quiet large and typically be mounted on a monopole or latice mast (like an ariel mast) and stand from 10-30 meters above ground level. strapping these onto the side of your chimney would be nothing short of mental! don't try this at home kids!

mini turbines- small dinky things that only pay off if you are using them on boat or remote stations where there is no mains. usually rated less than 1kw and typically around 3-500 watts.

Small turbines- big investment mounted on a large pole only suitable in an area that is relatively flat surveyed as a good wind site (usually provided by supplier) output usually between 4kw up to 20kw.

hope this helps

Wceng

Hi,

I'm an engineer looking for wind energy training. I am based in West Cork.
Could someone give me some recommendations as to what I should be looking for? I am open to doing masters courses (preferably online or part time) or short courses.

What are the major wind farm developers looking for in their engineers?

anthony55

Hi

Loughborough University do a Masters in Renewable Energy, which can be completed by distance learning. They also do a 5 day summer school course on Wind Power.

gman2k

Wceng wrote: »

Hi,

I'm an engineer looking for wind energy training. I am based in West Cork.
Could someone give me some recommendations as to what I should be looking for? I am open to doing masters courses (preferably online or part time) or short courses.

What are the major wind farm developers looking for in their engineers?

I presume since you are in west Cork you have attended one of Quentin's courses? If not, then it's a great place to start out!

esween

I have a couple of questions if anyone can help me answer them...

Does anyone have any information on where i would get average monthly wind speeds for the county of sligo?

Also I have looked at the wind atlas on the SEI website and got the average wind speed for the site that i have in mind for a domestic wind turbine but the wind atlas gives the wind speed for a height of 50m, how would i convert this figure for a hub height of 10m?

quentingargan

esween wrote: »

I have looked at the wind atlas on the SEI website and got the average wind speed for the site that i have in mind for a domestic wind turbine but the wind atlas gives the wind speed for a height of 50m, how would i convert this figure for a hub height of 10m?

You need to assess the roughness class of your land. This determines the likely effect that friction from the land will have on the wind as it travels over the land. (see table on attached file)roughness class.jpg

You enter the mean wind speed into the box that corresponds to your roughess class and height (50M) into the table here. If you press the plot button, you get a wind shear graph giving you different mean wind speeds at various hub heights.

Its approximate, but good as you get in a desktop analysis. You also need to take into account other obstacles upwind of your turbine site such as trees, buildings etc., and make a guesstimate on that.

If you are still confused, I can email you instructions for doing this. Q

drunken_munky52

Build your own.

Most companies provide power curves based on wind speeds near open sea, so obviously you wont get that sort of distribution further inland. You will end up paying a fortune and payback will be long.

You can build your own 1-3kW for a few hundred euro. Look up Hugh Piggott's book "Wind turbine recipe book". Most of it can be made with scrap heap stuff and the only hard bit is some welding.

I am current building a 200-300watt (hopefully). Using a DC motor from a treadmill to charge 12V batteries. Pretty fun so far, can wait to see this baby in action.

quentingargan

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Build your own.

Most companies provide power curves based on wind speeds near open sea, so obviously you wont get that sort of distribution further inland. You will end up paying a fortune and payback will be long.

You can build your own 1-3kW for a few hundred euro. Look up Hugh Piggott's book "Wind turbine recipe book". Most of it can be made with scrap heap stuff and the only hard bit is some welding.

I am current building a 200-300watt (hopefully). Using a DC motor from a treadmill to charge 12V batteries. Pretty fun so far, can wait to see this baby in action.

If you properly assess the mean wind speed for your site at the hub height you plan to use, you should get a reasonably accurate forecast of what your turbine will produce. If you were near the sea, that would be reflected in the "roughness class" that you put into the table. The calculator takes the power curve and allocates it to the predicted wind speed distribution at your location.

That said, I love Hugh Piggotts designs. A friend of mine has built a 300w one that has been working for many years without any problem. There is a 6kw one that can be seen on the road heading into Omagh bulit by a bloke who lectures on wind in the college there. If you are a keen hobbyist, it is definitely a fun option, but I wouldn't be so keen to dismiss commercial wind turbines provided the site assessment is done properly. Q

bladespin

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Build your own.

Most companies provide power curves based on wind speeds near open sea, so obviously you wont get that sort of distribution further inland. You will end up paying a fortune and payback will be long.

There are a few companies who label their machine based on it's maximum output (not average), they don't use coastal sites to gauge this however, it's generally a theoretical figure given by their generator suppliers.

Most companies power curves reflect the performance of their turbine through a range of windspeeds, it's up to you to find the windspeed for your site (corrected to the turbine height and any terrain issues you may have) and find where that puts your site on the power curve.

That said, I don't know many people who spend a fortune without having done some investigation into what they're buying first, a survey for a site only costs a couple of hundred euros, money well spent.

drunken_munky52

Thanks for both replies.

I use the Danish Wind Energy Association calculator:

http://guidedtour.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/pow/index.htm

Has most known manufacturers on its data base, as well as a number of default European locations with roughness class and shape parameter included.

bladespin

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Thanks for both replies.

I use the Danish Wind Energy Association calculator:

http://guidedtour.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/pow/index.htm

Has most known manufacturers on its data base, as well as a number of default European locations with roughness class and shape parameter included.

That site is primarily for large turbines, their terrain calculations are for heights of over 50m, the results for a domestic turbine would be very vague TBH.

It doesn't contain power curves for any domestic turbines that I've heard of, Fortis, Proven, Turbotricity, Mini wind seem to be missing.

The parameters at 50m hub height bear no relation to what a 13m turbine would be experiencing, caution is advised on any calculations produced.

SEI's wind maps would be a better place to start, combine that with your blades potential at different rpm (windspeeds) and use that against the power curve from your generator first then use a terrain aproximation to calculate potential output.

razor4scobies

richiekilkelly wrote: »

Hello, has anybody installed a wizzmill turbine, if so does it do what it says on the tin? http://www.wizzmill.ie thanks.

I have and it certainly does not do what it says on the tin. I have it installed with a year and in that time it has blown over twice and I have been left to my own devices by the company. Since the arrival of summer and switching off my oil heating I have noticed that the wizzmill was not heating any water at all. ollie came to see the problem but left without speaking to me. I am now not getting any replies to any calls I am making to them including their office which is giving the cut off tone when one calls. I wonder have they gone out of business. I can safely say that I have not made any payback on the 3000 euro I gave them in fact I had to pay others to rectify the problem when the wizzmill blew over any have not been re-imbursed by the company. I wonder did it ever heat water as it is hard to tell when you have other heating systems running alongside. I only found out it was not heating any water when I switched my oil off with the advent of summer. The are an amateur company who dont seem to know what they are doing. Gavin Duffy you had a lucky escape because yes they are that amateur and clueless. My only hope rests with the salesman who seems to be conscientious and is calling with a qualified electrician to see if he can do anything for me and he doesnt work for them anymore. Be careful how u proceed.

thebigredmachin

quentingargan wrote: »

You can certainly self-build a turbine if you are an enthusiast. See http://www.scoraigwind.com/

You can hook up any turbine to the grid. The ESB is only concerned that the grid tie inverter is EN50438 compliant (with their unique variables for Ireland) but they don't care if it is getting its juice from Granny on a bicycle with a dynamo. Q

hi quentin/all,
im thinking of ordering hugh piggots book and learning how to build a turbine as a winter project.

im handy enough with electronics and my dad can weld and is pretty good with woodwork. how hard can it be??

would the metric wind turbine recepie book be a good starting point?

also will looking into planning permission for a house next year. have a site selected. has anyone any recommendations for a cheap wind logging kit i could install somewhere to get my average wind speeds/direction?

im liking this thread, any additional help much appreciated
barry

bladespin

thebigredmachin wrote: »

hi quentin/all,
im thinking of ordering hugh piggots book and learning how to build a turbine as a winter project.

im handy enough with electronics and my dad can weld and is pretty good with woodwork. how hard can it be??

would the metric wind turbine recepie book be a good starting point?

also will looking into planning permission for a house next year. have a site selected. has anyone any recommendations for a cheap wind logging kit i could install somewhere to get my average wind speeds/direction?

im liking this thread, any additional help much appreciated
barry

Hi Barry, I've been using a Lewl logger for some time and find it excellent, the SD card set up makes things very simple.

It records in CSV which imports into Excel very easily, it seperates results by date and you can set it to various time intervals: 2sec, 10 sec etc.

http://www.reuk.co.uk/LeWL-Wind-Logger.htm

Toplink

bladespin wrote: »

Hi Barry, I've been using a Lewl logger for some time and find it excellent, the SD card set up makes things very simple.

It records in CSV which imports into Excel very easily, it seperates results by date and you can set it to various time intervals: 2sec, 10 sec etc.

http://www.reuk.co.uk/LeWL-Wind-Logger.htm

Hi bladespin,

I am thinking of investing in one it not two of these. I have 2 sites in mind, one for a smaller turbine and one for maybe something larger in time. The site I have in mind for the smaller turbine should be ok, I can brace a pole from the edge of my shed and get the required height upto 12m - 15m.


Regarding the other site, I would be looking to get to the 40m - 60m height, is there anybody who can supply a reliable mast for the purpose of collecting wind data over a period of 18 months. I spoke a company in Scotland who could do it but they would be looking for 10K-15K.

SEI wind maps tell me that average ws is 7 m/s which makes feasibility on the poorer side but I'd prefer to collect my own data.

50m is a pretty high mast so I doubt I am going to get any cheap option here but said I'd ask anyway!

bladespin

Toplink wrote: »

Hi bladespin,

Regarding the other site, I would be looking to get to the 40m - 60m height, is there anybody who can supply a reliable mast for the purpose of collecting wind data over a period of 18 months. I spoke a company in Scotland who could do it but they would be looking for 10K-15K.

SEI wind maps tell me that average ws is 7 m/s which makes feasibility on the poorer side but I'd prefer to collect my own data.

50m is a pretty high mast so I doubt I am going to get any cheap option here but said I'd ask anyway!

Hi Toplink, I'm not aware of anyone offering a mast of that height, I work with a 12m mast that was built for us, it's seated into a foundation for security, I'm looking for the invoice at the moment for a costing.

I would imagine it would be easy enough to use another small mast on the 'large turbine' site and adjust your figures up to 50m height.