Public v Private : how clever of the Government

Unshelved

How clever of the Government to set the two sectors that will bail out the country - PAYE workers in the private sector and PAYE workers in the public sector - at each others' throats.

It certainly provides such a handy distraction from the people who managed to blow the boom - themselves; those who made millions and helped to cause the downturn - developers and the banks; and those who won't do anything to turn things around - the farmers and the self-employed.

Those of you bickering in other threads, think on. Any of you with a job - in either sector - will be fair game for fleecing over the next couple of years. We should be sticking together instead of fighting over pensions, bonuses and who has the most job security.

Don't forget who got us into this mess when the elections come around.

steof1984

Exactly the point i was trying to make in another post

People are too busy to be saying "well you have a cushy Job" and “well you make millions in the boom years" to realise the f**kers who have both will still continue to have both

it will get to a tit for tat stage where one sector will accept some cuts "along as the others are getting hit much worse"

just a side note. Phase 2 of the Benchmarking report which only awarded increases to Po's , Sec Generals and politicians is to be paid so there all getting a 1.1% pay increase now while monetary its not much its the double standards that really bugs me

God i wish we were like the French and had power amongst the people

mike65

I don't think its a government conspiracy, more a case of thousands of private sector employees being turfed out of work while thier public sector friends stay in work.

Unshelved

mike65 wrote: »

I don't think its a government conspiracy, more a case of thousands of private sector employees being turfed out of work while thier public sector friends stay in work.

Oh just listen to yourself. Every single PAYE worker is going to hurt during this recession and you're more interested in slagging a group of them off. It's no wonder Sean Fitzpatrick is able to cream off a €500K pension and the so-called financial regulator (ha!) takes early retirement with a pension of €400K.

We're all so busy fighting among ourselves and finger-pointing that the likes of them can do what they like while it's the ordinary tax-payer who suffers.

stevoman

mike65 wrote: »

I don't think its a government conspiracy, more a case of thousands of private sector employees being turfed out of work while thier public sector friends stay in work.

stop eating lemons will you! its the bitterness like that, that the goverment and media are feeding on! everyones feeling the pinch of the recession!

mike65

Did I say I agree? I just said thats a common feeling.

OhNoYouDidn't

mike65 wrote: »

I don't think its a government conspiracy, more a case of thousands of private sector employees being turfed out of work while thier public sector friends stay in work.

I think its prevelent amongst certain younger people who genuinely dont seem to know that people join the worse paying private sector to be 'recession proof'.

I do not know one person over the age of 30 who begrudges the public sector their stabilty.

Rebeller

Unshelved wrote: »

How clever of the Government to set the two sectors that will bail out the country - PAYE workers in the private sector and PAYE workers in the public sector - at each others' throats.

Clever indeed, and a tactic that has been used throughout our history to "divide and conquer" so to speak. Most governments have a certain amount of fear of the populace they govern. Indeed, even the most brutal autocratic regimes cannot survive long-term and widespread disobedience and non-cooperation from the masses (there are far more of "us" than "them" after all!).

It certainly provides such a handy distraction from the people who managed to blow the boom - themselves; We should be sticking together instead of fighting over pensions, bonuses and who has the most job security.

Exactly. How many times do you see/hear threads, responses here on boards or out in the real world where someone is pointing the finger of blame at immigrants, the poor, the unemployed, the unionised, in other words, everyone except those who are in fact to blame?

How many times do you see people condemning those who take a stand and fight for their convictions, rights and entitlements? This thread is a prime example!

What is now needed is a united front against the morally corrupt gombeen men who have misgoverned this state for 18 of the past 21 years.

Don't forget who got us into this mess when the elections come around.

We've gone far beyond the place where our difficulties can be resolved by an advertising campaign pseudo-election.

Our economic bankruptcy won't be solved by the "opposition" implementing slight variations of the same tired old "business good, worker bad" policies.

What is now needed is mass civil disobedience by ALL workers, both public and private. The ruling "elite" have had it too cosy for far too long in this country: A cosy ruling class is a corrupt ruling class.

It's time to teach the government to fear the people. Passive, placard wielding protests will achieve little.

A mass march on Leinster House demanding the immediate resignation of the current administration. Immediate implementation of the following:

- Elimination of all still existing property tax breaks
- 70% tax on horse industry.
- Elimination of "cinderella" tax residency laws
- Immediate 50% pay cut for all government Ministers along with sacking of all Junior Ministers/ Ministers of State
- 35% pay cut for all TDs and 50% cut for all Senators
- Elimination of all unvouched for expenses with replacement by a strictly receipts only payment capped at €5,000 per year per serving TD, Senator
- Firing of all PR companies, consultants, non public service "advisors"
- €5,000 property tax on all unsold properties still retained by developers
- Supertax of 60% on all income over €200,000.
- Drastic reduction in pay for the likes of Professor Dumb (aka Drumm), head of IFSRA, FAS etc.

Let those who profited from the bubble/boom now repay the state that facilitated their excesses.

gandalf

Look we are on the way to 400000 potential tax payers on the dole queue. Not only are these people not contributing to the tax take in the country they are costing €20K per person by being out of work. This unprecedented strain on the countries economy has to be addressed and the first place it should be accommodated is where the money is spent. Organisations like the HSE where the numbers of administration personal inflated after all the Health Boards amalgamated should be one of the first targeted. With the HSE in place it can be argued as to the point in having a Dept of Health at all, that is ripe for pruning as well. There are numerous other examples of duplication out there.

I feel for the Public Service workers who do give a damn and who do work hard but if you totally honest you know who the people are in your organisation who are not pulling their weight. Do you honestly believe that they should be kept on if they are not doing their jobs. You have been cheated by this government because when they should have been preparing the whole PS for times like this by ensuring modern work practices and rewards for those that worked hard were put in place they were operating on Autopilot. Now they are panicking and I know this is the tip of a very painful iceberg that is on a collision course with the Public Service.

steof1984

didn’t even take a page for this tread to fall to the usual PS bashing like every other thread

Lets instead make this tread about how HIGHER Public Sector workers are creaming it maybe if we educate the masses people will realise that the Government are trying to keep the Focus on the Public Vs Private Debate so they can do what they want while we all argue with each other

Again is no one outraged that Yesterday as they were announcing cutbacks they also announced to the social partners that they were to give themselves a pay increase

if you want to bash public sector pay go to another tread

So far the crimes i have seen as far as politicians in the past 2 days are :

Awarding themselves the increase
A Minister on secondment from a teaching post pocketing the difference between his scale point and that of his replacement
2 Ministers spending 160,000+ on a trip to America
A Ministers mother suing the state for a fall in Leinster House (was settled out of court)

don’t ask for links there all on the Independent Website i just cant be arsed to go looking

anyone got anymore

grahamo

I have to agree. The divide & conquer tactics are working brilliantly for the govt. so far.
The Govt. are also only picking on 1 section of society at a time. Beware everyone. When they are finished with the public sector they will turn to you:(

Unshelved

I feel for the Public Service workers who do give a damn and who do work hard but if you totally honest you know who the people are in your organisation who are not pulling their weight.

You know what? You just swallow the propaganda hook, line and sinker. It's just like a public sector worker saying "Everyone in the private sector received huge bonuses, got flown to Paris for their Christmas parties and got company cars".

I have worked in both sectors. I've seen dossers and hard workers in both. So have you, if you've got any honesty. You should be taking as much pleasure in yesterday's measures as the public sector takes in somewhere like Dell or Waterford Glass closing down - absolutely none.

We're all going to get hit. And those actually responsible will laugh at us while we bicker among ourselves.

gnxx

I've never understood the idea of paying top dollar for high-ranking public officials. In most countries, people take these jobs out of a sense of public duty and to improve their CV.

As for the expenses thing .. unbelievable that unvouched expenses are permitted.

Rebeller wrote: »

- Elimination of all still existing property tax breaks
- 70% tax on horse industry.
- Elimination of "cinderella" tax residency laws
- Immediate 50% pay cut for all government Ministers along with sacking of all Junior Ministers/ Ministers of State
- 35% pay cut for all TDs and 50% cut for all Senators
- Elimination of all unvouched for expenses with replacement by a strictly receipts only payment capped at €5,000 per year per serving TD, Senator
- Firing of all PR companies, consultants, non public service "advisors"
- €5,000 property tax on all unsold properties still retained by developers
- Supertax of 60% on all income over €200,000.
- Drastic reduction in pay for the likes of Professor Dumb (aka Drumm), head of IFSRA, FAS etc.

Let those who profited from the bubble/boom now repay the state that facilitated their excesses.

gandalf

I suggest you get out into the real world and stop spouting labels like "Propaganda" and saying there is a conspiracy from Government to get different sections of the country at each others throats. They are too incompetent to be even remotely capable of doing anything like that. They couldn't even organise a pissup in a brewery. The basic fact is they are panicking.

Of course we are all going to get hit, its a recession, its the second one I have experienced in my working life. I was unemployed for 3 months last thing and I am hoping I get away as lightly this time round.

gnxx

Do you think that the government planned this? I don't think that this government has planned anything in the last 10 years.

Unshelved wrote: »

How clever of the Government to set the two sectors that will bail out the country - PAYE workers in the private sector and PAYE workers in the public sector - at each others' throats.

stevoman

well in my opinion its a complete sham that on the same day the goverment puts a pension levy on all public workers they put on the same table that they are giving an incease in pay to principle officers in the civil service who earn €100,000 per annum. This scale automatically applies to TD'S.

ixoy

I very much doubt they planned it, but it's a handy distraction. What they should have done though is simultaneously make announcements about taking a very firm line with property developers and bankers. I agree, in principle, with the levy but it's no wonder there's so much aggression within the PS towards private sector when they see them apparently getting away with it.

Pal

Unshelved wrote: »

How clever of the Government to set the two sectors that will bail out the country - PAYE workers in the private sector and PAYE workers in the public sector - at each others' throats.

It certainly provides such a handy distraction from the people who managed to blow the boom - themselves; those who made millions and helped to cause the downturn - developers and the banks; and those who won't do anything to turn things around - the farmers and the self-employed.

Those of you bickering in other threads, think on. Any of you with a job - in either sector - will be fair game for fleecing over the next couple of years. We should be sticking together instead of fighting over pensions, bonuses and who has the most job security.

Don't forget who got us into this mess when the elections come around.

I don't wish to appear rude but simply put it was greedy Irish people who got us into this mess.

By all means please go ahead and blame the bankers, politicians, developers or even the public/private divide. Miss the point entirely if you will.

We were all at it. Shipping in property we could never pay for at prices we would never sell at and not a care in the world. We were all getting rich. Right.

gnxx

Pal,

I tend to agree with you. Greed played a big factor in this.

The problem is that bankers, politicians and developers added fuel to the fire.

100% mortgages should have never happened. Politicians ( through incompetence or shared interest ) should have never stated that the property market "was sound".

I was in my bank about 5 years ago. The lending officer had bundle of credit union cheques that were used for deposits on mortgages ( IE people were securing mortgages on borrowed cash ). Banks were turning a blind eye to the various laws, rules and regulations that were supposed to prevent this sort of thing.

Pal wrote: »

I don't wish to appear rude but simply put it was greedy Irish people who got us into this mess.

By all means please go ahead and blame the bankers, politicians, developers or even the public/private divide. Miss the point entirely if you will.

We were all at it. Shipping in property we could never pay for at prices we would never sell at and not a care in the world. We were all getting rich. Right.

Dr Galen

agreed, blinds eyes were turned alright, but as laws and regulations had been very much relaxed, they were able to get away with it.

and your both right as well, crazy things happened, single people in normal jobs getting €400,000+ 100% mortgages.

why the stop lever was never pulled I dunno, but it wasn't and now we have to deal with it

dresden8

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

why the stop lever was never pulled I dunno, but it wasn't and now we have to deal with it

The lever was never pulled because that 400,000 went straight into the FF buddies pockets.

dresden8

Pal wrote: »

I don't wish to appear rude but simply put it was greedy Irish people who got us into this mess.

By all means please go ahead and blame the bankers, politicians, developers or even the public/private divide. Miss the point entirely if you will.

We were all at it. Shipping in property we could never pay for at prices we would never sell at and not a care in the world. We were all getting rich. Right.

What's this "We" sh1t paleface.

A lot of us saw which way things were going and didn't get ourselves up to our t1ts in debt. We still have to pay when the final bill comes.

Paddy Samurai

mike65 wrote: »

I don't think its a government conspiracy, more a case of thousands of private sector employees being turfed out of work while thier public sector friends stay in work.

Not only their friends,but also their wives,husbands,sons,sisters etc.Many families have lost jobs in the private sector that still have a family member in the public sector.What do you propose ,that we make sure that they have no family members working?.

silverharp

dresden8 wrote: »

What's this "We" sh1t paleface.

A lot of us saw which way things were going and didn't get ourselves up to our t1ts in debt. We still have to pay when the final bill comes.

I agree there, I paid my mortgage off in 03 , I was in the camp that thought this was going to happen, now I have to keep a beady eye out in case the gubberment tries to come after my savings, or stiffs me with some makey up tax.

Humria

Pal wrote: »

I don't wish to appear rude but simply put it was greedy Irish people who got us into this mess.

By all means please go ahead and blame the bankers, politicians, developers or even the public/private divide. Miss the point entirely if you will.

We were all at it. Shipping in property we could never pay for at prices we would never sell at and not a care in the world. We were all getting rich. Right.

Pal, the general populations of countries tend to act in the same way. I understand what you are saying but I honestly think you can't blame the sheep entirely if the shepard leads them off a cliff.

Yeah, I do blame the politicians and bankers.

Mostly, I blame the governmet. They were dependant on the housing boom for 25% of annual income. This boom was going to end at some point but the government was too busy buying elections to plan for this. It was a false boom created by a cycle of loans and I'm sure someone informed them of this. So recession hits and they are automatically out 25% of their income - correct me if I'm wrong but this at least could have been avoided.

Then there is the blatent lying. Calling paycuts pension levys is the most recent. The government denied the recession until it was obvious and then blamed the world enconomy; how convienent for them. This recession was going to happen anyway. Yes, the American recession makes things worse but they refuse to take responsibility.

With the recent refunding of the banks Cowen had to wait until Dail resumed, this when the country was getting worse on a daily basis. In the banking deal they should have get a much better deal for the capital they are investing. At the very least the people in charge of the banks should have been forced to resign, considering the part they played in this, but they weren't.

With the public sector cuts (as has been pointed out previously) they are the superficial instead of structure. Restructuring especially in the HSE would created long term savings. They are only focusing on the short term.

So yes, I blame the government. One for being incompentent and second for dening it until it happened. Yes, people have responsibility for their own finances but some niave people still think they can trust the government when they say things are ok.

Sorry for going off topic.

On topic I think it's just incompetence but the thought of deflection probably crossed their mind and I'm sure they congraulated themselves on how clever they were.

Vadrefjorde

Divide & Conquer , proven formula

The last time the tactic was used was in Irish Ferries, pitting one union against the other. Whilst the two opposing sides argued about who has the better condition etc.. neither failed to realise what was actually occuring and with both in opposition it halved the problem for the management...

Same here i can see...

Daroxtar

Pal wrote: »

I don't wish to appear rude but simply put it was greedy Irish people who got us into this mess.

By all means please go ahead and blame the bankers, politicians, developers or even the public/private divide. Miss the point entirely if you will.

We were all at it. Shipping in property we could never pay for at prices we would never sell at and not a care in the world. We were all getting rich. Right.

No, we weren't ALL at it and i'm fed up to the back fkn teeth of statements like that but you're right about one thing it was greed ghreed and more greed that got us here. Gob****es who lied to get mortgages on second and third houses-they were our "sub prime" problem and are now getting what they deserve for their stupidity and its just a pity the rest of us have to suffer for it.

What about the likes of myself that worked his bollox off to save a deposit for a house to live in as opposed to as an investment? I never thought about making a quick buck because i was too fkn busy just trying to live.

We hear all the sht about the millions made in the building sector - believe me, it was fat lazy prcks in suits that made big money and not one of the cnts got their hands dirty or nails chipped. These prcks are bankers, politicians, developers, lawyers, estate agents and accountants and they deserve to suffer the wrath of the genuine folk who don't get to claim expenses, who dont qualify for massive tax breaks and who had to pay the extravagant prices that these moneyed up pieces of excrement fixed so as to milk every last cent out of the ordinary people.

Just look at all the estate agents acting on behalf of developers who drove prices up to the roof and then acted as mortgage brokers with the banks to ensure that they got us into huge debts. The banks threw money at idiots for the last 10 years to finance it. Lets just call it what it is- Vested interests, collusion and price fixing. And who allowed and indeed encouraged this? Our beloved elected representatives.

The whole economy was based around construction but the greed of the suits at the top made sure it would collapse by building too much too soon. 45000 houses a year was sustainable but we built nearly 100000 a year for the last 3 years so construction is now fkd until 2012 and the only people who dont suffer are the cnts who caused the problem but pocketed the profits.
And now after all my hard work, no sick days in 2 years, never late and never on the doss, with a 350k mortgage and a 7 months pregnant wife, i get let go because the bank wont release the money to the multi millioinaire developer who in turn witholds payment to my boss for the last 6 months so he has to let his 10 staff go or risk bankruptcy.

I know who i blame alright. I also know what i'd do if i got within gunshot of a senior bank official, a politician or a certain cork based developer.

To quote howard beale I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. I'll blame these bstrds all right and i'll make them squirm if i ever get the chance.

Its time we had a revolution like the french did 200 years ago and its time the neo burgios got their arses kicked to kingdom come.
OUT WITH THE OLD AND GREEDY - IN WITH THE YOUNG AND HUNGRY.

Surely any monkey could do a better job than gimps we have running the country now.

Thanks, and sorry about the rant

silverharp

PeakOutput wrote: »

so you have not benefitted in any way from the the so called celtic tiger? at all



same question to you

Not really as you asked, I lived in England for most of the 90's and made my money over there, objectively my standard of living dropped when I moved back as ever since I have being paying more taxes for less services! The point I'm making is that the gov needs to balance its books and cut out the nonsense they are spending money on. Ireland had a get out of jail card after the country was run into the ground by mismanagement in the 70/80's, there is no get out of jail card this time, you cant inflate the currency and pretend to pay everyone and you cant put taxes up or you might as well put a knife in the back of the consumer.

PeakOutput

Daroxtar wrote: »

Surely any monkey could do a better job than gimps we have running the country now.

im not going to say anything about the rest of your post as i am genuinely sorry for the trouble you now find yourself in and hope you can find a way out asap

however lets assume the goverment is to blame and that all there decisions are for their own personal gains etc etc blah blah

who made them goverment? the majority of the people of ireland thats who(or at least the majority according to our system which im taking for granted is the same thing)

so by logical conclusion, if the goverment is to blame and the people are to blame for the goverment who is to blame? thats right the exact people who are feeling the pinch now the majority of the people of ireland. i would never say that what is going on is deserved by anyone but everyone in country had a part to play weather you like it or not

i cant think of one single sector(including the unemployed) who have not benefited from the last 15/20 years. by reading the majority of the posters here anyone who benefited is to blame.

Not really as you asked, I lived in England for most of the 90's and made my money over there, objectively my standard of living dropped when I moved back as ever since I have being paying more taxes for less services! The point I'm making is that the gov needs to balance its books and cut out the nonsense they are spending money on. Ireland had a get out of jail card after the country was run into the ground by mismanagement in the 70/80's, there is no get out of jail card this time, you cant inflate the currency and pretend to pay everyone and you cant put taxes up or you might as well put a knife in the back of the consumer.

england was booming and is now up **** creek too was that the fault of the goverment who have only their own self interests at heart? same question can be asked of any country that is in recession at the moment.

i absolutely agree with you that they need to cut out the spending on nonsense absolutely agree and is that not what they are doing by cutting public spending? but that dosnt seem to be good enough for the posters here they somehow want the goverment to make savings while spending the same amount of money(ie not give any pay cuts service cuts etc etc)

and for what its worth i think our get out of jail free card is the euro and the eu the eu will not fail and as aresult we will not be allowed to. if we are one of the countries to come out of this recession faster than others we will be expected to help the others do the same if they come out of it faster than us they will be expected to do the same

Sand

Jesus wept. Its not divide and conquer.

I just believe that private sector workers are just all out of sympathy for the plight of public sector workers who have to contribute to their own pensions which apparently is the greatest injustice since apartheid. :rolleyes:

The union attempt to climb onto the nearest cross when private sector workings are contemplating unemployment in the bleakest economic downturn for decades just isnt going to win friends. People in the company I work for werent given the option to take a pay cut. 20% of the workforce have been let go in the past 6 months.

Benchmark that.

NewDubliner

PeakOutput wrote: »

and for what its worth i think our get out of jail free card is the euro and the eu the eu will not fail and as aresult we will not be allowed to. if we are one of the countries to come out of this recession faster than others we will be expected to help the others do the same if they come out of it faster than us they will be expected to do the same

When we get out of this mess, maybe the positive things will be that everyone will be less ignorant of politics and the ways of politicians. We'll value honest work taht provides genuinely useful goods and services, we'll respect money, community and family properly and will be much wiser to 'smoke and mirrors' get-rich-no-effort schemes.

As soon as we can have an election without spooking our foreign patrons, we need to send FF into oblivion and show the world that we are going to take control of our own destiny, much as the Swedes or Swiss. There may be no shortage of candidates among the talented, motivated unemployed.

silverharp

PeakOutput wrote: »

and for what its worth i think our get out of jail free card is the euro and the eu the eu will not fail and as aresult we will not be allowed to. if we are one of the countries to come out of this recession faster than others we will be expected to help the others do the same if they come out of it faster than us they will be expected to do the same

The Euro is a bonus to be sure but its a hard task master as well. It will in relative terms be like living under a gold standard, debts will be compounding but income will be dropping and there is no faking it by inflating and pretending to pay everyone. Ireland has to come out of this lean and mean and this means rowing back on gov. policies where the income is not there to support the activities.

Daroxtar

PeakOutput wrote: »

and for what its worth i think our get out of jail free card is the euro and the eu the eu will not fail and as aresult we will not be allowed to. if we are one of the countries to come out of this recession faster than others we will be expected to help the others do the same if they come out of it faster than us they will be expected to do the same

so we let a neo-con backed economic hitman convince us to vote against europe, our one hope. youre probably right, we get what we vote for. i was in the yes camp for the record.
As for everyone contributing to the crisis, I dont consider wanting to put a roof over my family's head as being to blame for the current situation- thats what any parent would want.
Dont worry, i'll survive. We all will. its not the end of the world. But to see the fat cats go unpunished for blowing all our money makes me sick. I dont buy into the govt being clever, just sneaky and irresponsible

PeakOutput

Daroxtar wrote: »

so we let a neo-con backed economic hitman convince us to vote against europe, our one hope. youre probably right, we get what we vote for. i was in the yes camp for the record.

i wasnt in the country to vote but even if i was i dont think i would have as i simply didnt understand what was being voted on i do to some extent now and i will be in the yes camp

As for everyone contributing to the crisis, I dont consider wanting to put a roof over my family's head as being to blame for the current situation- thats what any parent would want.

of course but property is not the be all and end all of this crisis it jsut happens to be the most obvious as its the first to go when the banks get hit by uncertainty(which is what caused the banks to get in trouble by the way and is what the goverment is trying to get rid of by recapitalising the banks, they are not just handing out money to their 'mates' for the sake of it)

anyone who paid lower taxes, got pay increases / bonus's, could buy a larger house than they previously could have, were given a house by the goverment or were subsidised by the goverment, who moved up the social ladder(which is the direction the vast majority of people traveled in) or who even enjoyed the benefits of a very strong euro in out of euro zone countries benefited from this boom which in a large part existed because of the banks.

But to see the fat cats go unpunished for blowing all our money makes me sick.

you see thats the only thing i take issue with, besides the goverment who are these fat cats? they are people who have brought billions and billions of euro worth of business to our shores during the boom time. if the sub prime debacle in america had not of happened our banks would not be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are now. i dont understand the mentality that these ' fat cats' are getting away scot free. it is these fat cats who are letting people go from their business's because their business's are not making any money. it is these fat cats whose business's are closing daily. i dont feel sorry for them hell no but they have not somehow sucked the life and money out of our country for the last 15/20 years without us realising until now they are jsut the easy targets because they probably have large savings and will survive just fine with a few less business's.

RedPlanet

I don't think this government is that clever (public vs private).
But i do feel the scales are not balanced.
People in the private sector have zero job security and are haemorraging jobs at a panic rate.
Nobody has lost their job in the public sector.

I don't have the stats but I'll wager that the number of Planning Applications the past year are way down; yet how many people in the Planning offices have got the boot?

Liam Byrne

PeakOutput wrote: »

if the sub prime debacle in america had not of happened our banks would not be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are now

So you're admitting that they would be in a bad state, just not anywhere near AS bad ?.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont understand the mentality that these ' fat cats' are getting away scot free.

You don't ? And yet you say.....

PeakOutput wrote: »

it is these fat cats who are letting people go from their business's because their business's are not making any money. it is these fat cats whose business's are closing daily.[/b]

Yup, ordinary people are losing their jobs and pensions, while......

PeakOutput wrote: »

they probably have large savings and will survive just fine with a few less business's.

All your own quotes......ergo, they're getting off scot-free.

And those involved in banking are getting bailed out without any small print or terms & conditions... [ the irony! ].....and those behind loaning themselves €100K haven't even been reprimanded let alone asked for the money back.

Debts by overstretched large speculators and construction companies likely to be written off, but no chance of Joe Soap - who had to pay money to the self-same speculators and construction companies to put a roof over their heads - getting his mortgage or loan written off.

Again, fat-cats and FF Galway-tent buddies getting off scot-free.

Darwin

RedPlanet wrote: »

I don't think this government is that clever (public vs private).
But i do feel the scales are not balanced.
People in the private sector have zero job security and are haemorraging jobs at a panic rate.
Nobody has lost their job in the public sector.

I don't have the stats but I'll wager that the number of Planning Applications the past year are way down; yet how many people in the Planning offices have got the boot?

An absolute urban myth, please educate yourself with the facts before posting...public sector employees ARE being made redundant. New recruits are on CID's or temporary contracts. 10% of staff in our place did not have their contracts renewed this year. People are being let go in county council's, schools, at third level you name it. There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a permanent job anymore in the public service.

*Honey*

RedPlanet wrote: »

Nobody has lost their job in the public sector.

Rubbish. I suggest you get your facts straight first. Some people I sat with last year, no longer work with me due to job losses.

I agree with the general point being made - however, I don't believe this Government has the ability to think up a cunning plan. It just happened that way.

How do we, as the population of this country, try to force a general election... and, more importantly, who else would you have running the show???

ixoy

Darwin wrote: »

There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a permanent job anymore in the public service.

Does that apply for those who joined the service years ago though? As in those who aren't on a contract. I'd have thought they were very secure.

Daroxtar

*Honey* wrote: »

How do we, as the population of this country, try to force a general election... and, more importantly, who else would you have running the show???

thats the million dollar question. we have no current viable opposition. lets face it, enda kenny is like some sterile pioneer pin wearing school master of old and most of the others are no better. the politicians we have in this country are completely removed from the public because most of them are high level professionals or they inherited their seats from their fathers so even during the worst of times in the 60s-80s they and their families had good jobs. we are a working class country and we need a working class govt.
the only way to force an election is to show up en masse in front of leinster house and not leave until we get it. but then we'd have the same boloxes running again and end up with the same parties, just sitting on the opposite side of the floor. we'd need to get independent candidates to run in opposition to every sitting td with a new mandate of replacing the nepotist system and an agreement to form a coalition of independents. that way nobody could hide behind the party to cover their own ineptitude.
i think we need a seperate thread for this

PeakOutput

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So you're admitting that they would be in a bad state, just not anywhere near AS bad ?.

i dont have to admit anything im not being accused of anything. i meant exactly what i said we would not be in anywere near as bad shape as we are without the sub prime issue.

PeakOutput wrote: »

it is these fat cats who are letting people go from their business's because their business's are not making any money. it is these fat cats whose business's are closing daily.[/b]

Yup, ordinary people are losing their jobs and pensions, while......


All your own quotes......ergo, they're getting off scot-free.

i made the actual point of the parts you quoted bold as you obviously missed them

losing their business's is not getting off scot free, making loss's is not getting away scot free

And those involved in banking are getting bailed out without any small print or terms & conditions... [ the irony! ].....

i could be wrong now but i could of sworn the recapitalisations were coming as preference shares? therefore the goverment gets paid back before anyone else gets anything that sounds like a term and condition to me and a pretty damn big one. the alternative of course was to let them fail and then pay back the guaranteed savings to the general public adding to the national debt which is what is being bitched about anyway

and those behind loaning themselves €100K haven't even been reprimanded let alone asked for the money back.

i assume you mean 100million not 100thousand. these people will be paying back their loans in full or they will be going bankrupt like anyone else. they did nothing illegal so they can be expected to do no more in fact id argue demanding the money back immedietely would result in more likely chance of forfeiture

Humria

Darwin wrote: »

There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a permanent job anymore in the public service.

At the rate we are going and the governments imcompetence we will be calling in the IMF and then there definitely will not be anything like a secure job. They will tell us to get rid of a large proportion of the public sector along with many other stringent changes and no amount strikes or public outcry will make a difference because we will need the money and nobody argues with the IMF. It's a frightening thought but it's where we are headed if we can't don't start taking control of the situation.

I wonder why people are so dismissive of the opposition. After 10 years of FF being in power you cannot automatically assume an alternative will be as ineffective. At least the oppositiion have some plans and measures that could help. Measures that the government wouldn't listen to because like an egotistical child Cowen has to do it his way.

Yes, the opposition is not supporting the government but they would be stupid because the government in incompetent. If the election had swung the other way I'd bet everything I own that FF would be shouting down the street that this wouldn't have happened if THEY had been re-elected and most people would believe them to.

gnxx

I'm sure that I read that preference shares are a non-runner. The ability to get other investors is restricted if preference shares are issued to the government. I think they had similar issues in the UK.

Also we don't know if the 100 million loan was legal or illegal. I think that this is subject to "an ongoing investigation".

PeakOutput wrote: »

i could be wrong now but i could of sworn the recapitalisations were coming as preference shares? therefore the goverment gets paid back before anyone else gets anything that sounds like a term and condition to me and a pretty damn big one. the alternative of course was to let them fail and then pay back the guaranteed savings to the general public adding to the national debt which is what is being bitched about anyway



i assume you mean 100million not 100thousand. these people will be paying back their loans in full or they will be going bankrupt like anyone else. they did nothing illegal so they can be expected to do no more in fact id argue demanding the money back immedietely would result in more likely chance of forfeiture

SkepticOne

Unshelved wrote: »

We're all so busy fighting among ourselves and finger-pointing that the likes of them can do what they like while it's the ordinary tax-payer who suffers.

The degree of suffering is different and private sector workers tend to, for the most part, quietly suffer. I think the reason they do so quietly is because, as a private sector worker, you justify your position based on what you contribute rather than what you need. Consequently, if you are put on short time or reduced wages, as tens of thousand have been lately, there is a feeling that you yourself are partly responsible.

I agree that those who are responsible are being let off the hook.

LightningBolt

PeakOutput wrote: »

i assume you mean 100million not 100thousand. these people will be paying back their loans in full or they will be going bankrupt like anyone else. they did nothing illegal so they can be expected to do no more in fact id argue demanding the money back immedietely would result in more likely chance of forfeiture

You're wrong. Anybody who provided false information (ie. signing a directors statement) in published accounts is in breach of company law.

silverharp

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont have to admit anything im not being accused of anything. i meant exactly what i said we would not be in anywere near as bad shape as we are without the sub prime issue.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Subprime was the first part of the financial system to break because it was the weakest , but the way you have stated your point you seem to be saying that asset prices and leverage was ok in Ireland but maybe due a little pull back that the banks could handle. I'd say no way, Irish property/land is in excess of 50% over vauled, the banks would have been brought down anyway.

Just to add this was a global credit bubble so Subprime was just one symptom of this

Fol20

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think its prevelent amongst certain younger people who genuinely dont seem to know that people join the worse paying private sector to be 'recession proof'.

I do not know one person over the age of 30 who begrudges the public sector their stabilty.

I do,my dad who used to be a teacher thinks this way as do i.

Pal

dresden8 wrote: »

What's this "We" sh1t paleface.

A lot of us saw which way things were going and didn't get ourselves up to our t1ts in debt. We still have to pay when the final bill comes.

its an attempt at sympathy with the borrowing classes.
I saw it coming too up to a point.
So much so that I took the profits on most of my investments during 2007.

The cynical me says those in the hole today are all mugs. Those who go round feeling sorry for themselves will dump on you quick as a flash if you mention their woe.

"Its the Bankers ! " they scream." they got us into this mess !"

my ass.

Its your own fault.

Actually I'm with you friend.
The 'WE' that apparently bothers you is simply a symbolic word for Irish society.
So know you know.

Unshelved

The cynical me says those in the hole today are all mugs.

While I do have some agreement with this, I think that a lot of people were led astray by property hype. Some people swallowed the "get on the property ladder quick"-type supplements in the papers week after week, panicked that they'd never be able to buy a house at the rate the prices were rising, and then leapt at a 100% mortgage for an apartment in Balbriggan or Aughrim or Navan. Who cares if it's miles away from where you want to live? Prices were only going to go up and then you could sell your house at a profit and move back to the city. You were on the ladder - hurray!The banks and the whole property industry (builders, estate agents and even property journalists) have to share some of the blame for this hysteria.

When we took out our mortgage about eight years ago we were repeatedly asked "is that all you want?". The inference being that they'd lend us more if we wanted them to, whereas we insisted on sticking to our budget.

I think that many of the people who will feel the worst of the backlash are those in their late 20's and early 30's who haven't lived through a recession and thought that the good times were going to go on forever. Many of us who endured the dark eighties and early nineties were a LOT more cautious and realised that everything is cyclical.

Maybe that's why there's such a backlash against the Public Service. A lot of us who went for it are of that generation - and took the "safe" option instead. I'm seeing a huge "What the f***!" reaction from younger workers who went for the high-earning Private Sector jobs and now can't believe that the economy can fall so far so fast with such disastrous consequences.

Is this the reason for this level of aggression from the Private Sector? That people swallowed the hype from all the vested interests and have now been left high and dry?

jaqian

steof1984 wrote: »

just a side note. Phase 2 of the Benchmarking report which only awarded increases to Po's , Sec Generals and politicians is to be paid so there all getting a 1.1% pay increase now while monetary its not much its the double standards that really bugs me

Just got an email from the CPSU (Civil & Public Service Union) stating that top civil servants (including TD's) are getting a pay increase, which will work out higher thsn the cut we were taking!!!

Email...
An indication of their unwillingness to take a fair and balanced approach was their proposal on Monday night to give a pay increase to Civil Service Principal Officers on €100,000 p.a. This scale automatically applies to TD’s.

This increase would have been greater than the pay cut a Clerical Officer on starting pay rates is being asked to pay.

I've no problem taking a cut if it helps the country get back on its feet but EVERYONE has to do their part and by that I mean the government. The Japanese could teach us a thing or two... everyone from their government down took a cut, here out arrogant govt don't think they should.

SkepticOne

Unshelved wrote: »

Is this the reason for this level of aggression from the Private Sector? That people swallowed the hype from all the vested interests and have now been left high and dry?

I don't think it is the reason, tbh. I think it is the attitude from some workers to the effect that they are owed a living regardless of whether the money is there. I think there's going to have to be some mass redundancies in the public sector before this attitude changes, unfortunately.