fully licenced drivers treatment of learners

Orla K

DancingDaisy posted this up in the learner driver convictions tread

I'm just back from a driving lesson, and my instructor made a point to me today. After a number of fully licensed drivers tried to bully me to day and tried to put me in a dangerous situation through bullying, my instructor said that a large part of the reason that learner drivers make mistakes is due to the treatment they receive from fully licensed drivers that are to impatient to follow the speed limits and other rules of the road.

I was doing 50 in a 50 zone today and a male, middle aged driver decided to drive right up my backside because he was so very impatient. I had another driver who didn't want to be behind a learner at a junction so pulled up on my left side and indicated out in front of me as I was pulling off from the junction. The man wasn't indicating at the junction and was in the lane to turn right. He could quiet easily have caused an accident.

My instructor also states that she has cars try to bully her on the road when she is driving her car which has the L plates up due to her being an instructor.

How come the RSA is not doing something to discourage this type of behaviour. It might go a ways to cutting down the number of accidents.

It got me thinking of when I'm driving. I'm not one that's easily bullied I don't care if people are beeping at me for not moving off fast enough but these are the things that have happened to me(in a short space of time)

-at a t junction I had to stop, but then the car coming from my right indicated to turn left(the road is too narrow for two cars, there's also someone behind me) I needed more than the clutch to set off, I've cycled there and have never found it very sloped but my car still needed more power than I though. So I didn't move off straight away, then someone decided to start beeping.

-at a crossroad controled by lights, I was turning right, I lifted my foot of the clutch too fast and missed the space I had to turn. The person behind me straight away started beeping. I could go but then the lights turned so the person behind me was stuck. I was delighted for them:p.

-This happened today, driving along an R road. I know the road well, I was driven along that road every year of my life and I cycled it a fair few times as well. The first part is fine straight you can see what's coming and fairly wide. But then it has a few turns, and then gets narrower. It also has a very dangerous bridge, too narrow can't see past it and has a bend the other side. for half the drive I could see that the woman behind me had dyed blond hair(and she'll probably be getting her roots done soon)


It's very stupid thing to do. How prevalent is this behaviour?

fonpokno

This happened to me quite a lot when I was learning. Once I stalled at a very very quiet junction in an estate. The person in the car behind me revved their car so loud which made me panic alot and then i got away even slower and had to pull in and stop crying!

I also found that people pulled out in front of me when they saw the L plates. The amount of times I had to jam on was ridiculous.

People are very quick to forget that they were learners once too.

Even today I had a run in with a very angry man. I'm fully licensed and a 19yr old girl. This man was driving right up my backside and when I braked gently to go over a ramp beside a school that was emptying and he blasted me with the horn. I drove on calmly through the next roundabout. He went around this roundabout twice in an attempt to get more space between me and him. He then came speeding up the road behind me at about 70km/h where I was driving at about 40-45. He was blasting me with the horn and waving around at me, I stopped at the red lights to go right and he pulled up beside me and started screaming at me that I was a <SNIP> over and over again so i gestured at him to go on that i wasn't in his way and he sped off again going straight through a red light into busy traffic.

Total <SNIP> Really shook me too cos I was driving perfectly responsibly and this <SNIP> decided that I was doing wrong. People suck. :mad:

Alanstrainor

Try cool it on the swearing there everybody. It's not called for and not needed.
Cheers,
Alan.

Orla K

fonpokno wrote: »

Once I stalled at a very very quiet junction in an estate. The person in the car behind me revved their car so loud which made me panic alot and then i got away even slower and had to pull in and stop crying!

Aww, that actually sounds like something my father would do, whenever he's waiting for someone to get in the car all you can hear in him revving the engine.


As for the other guy

fonpokno wrote: »

i gestured at him to go on

I would have been giving him a different gesture.

Gauge

This happened to me during my test! The tester told me to turn right from a main road onto a smaller one (leading into a park). As I was about to turn a car which had been slowly making it's way up the road I was about to turn into took the opportunity to slam on the accelerator and cut me off, making me slam on my breaks. As he passed he turned and gave me the finger! It was a middle aged man in a suit, driving a merc. I was utterly convinced I'd instantly failed for slamming on the breaks but all I got was a grade 2 in the hazards section- the tester actually said "He was a right arsehole!"

Alanstrainor

I think the worst thing you can do in these situations is get overwhelmed. It's easily said i know, but ultimately, You are the one in control of your car. Whether learning or not you have to be confident in a) yourself and b) Your Accompanying driver. There are always going to be people with little or no patience, that goes for anything not just Learning to Drive, you cannot let them get the better of you, all that will stand to do is jeopardise your own safety and the safety of those around you.
Just be safe, getting emotional and upset about such events gets you nowhere, i know it can be a frightening experience, you just have to take these people as they come and deal with them calmly and collectively. If their aggression is excessive report them for dangerous driving.

DriveSkill

Unfortunately its a fact of life these days that road rage occurs pretty much on a daily basis! Learners are perceived to be holding up the traffic when in a lot of cases they are just following the rules of the road (i.e. speed limits etc). Best advice is to try and ignore it as best you can(especially people who beep!) and in the case of someone driving too close up behind try let them get past you by keeping in to the left. Do not try to deliberately block them in any way - it is not your responsibilty to enforce the speed limits and much much safer to just let them get past and away from you asap.

BTW its not just learner drivers this impacts, some people have a problem with small cars no matter who is driving them! On occasions I drive a number of different cars and there is a definite difference in peoples reaction depending on whether you are driving say a VW Passat vs a Nissan Micra - I thought I use to imagine it before but its true

seanybiker

Learner drivers do get a tough time. I always tend to be nicer to learner drivers (well once i can see the L plates). Thats my main karma thing .

Orla K

I would be very calm when driving and my accompanying driver is either the instructor or my uncle(a retired garda), my uncle is nearly better than the instructor(who's about the same age as me and I grew up across the road from) I've a habit of annoying him a little, over the 'funbumps' (my brother named them, a certain type of speed bump that's more fun to go over them faster than you should.)

People beeping doesn't bother me, they can do it all they want because it's not going to make me move before I'm ready but, I don't like it when people do something as stupid as drive right up behind me when it's snowing, if anything it makes me go slower.

Buffman

Tailgating really does seem to be becoming a national pastime. The 2 second rule has become the 0.2 second rule with some people.
These are then the same twits who don't have the nuts to overtake when given the opportunity.

fonpokno

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Try cool it on the swearing there everybody. It's not called for and not needed.
Cheers,
Alan.

Really sorry. Rage got the better of me.

Gauge wrote: »

This happened to me during my test! The tester told me to turn right from a main road onto a smaller one (leading into a park). As I was about to turn a car which had been slowly making it's way up the road I was about to turn into took the opportunity to slam on the accelerator and cut me off, making me slam on my breaks. As he passed he turned and gave me the finger! It was a middle aged man in a suit, driving a merc. I was utterly convinced I'd instantly failed for slamming on the breaks but all I got was a grade 2 in the hazards section- the tester actually said "He was a right arsehole!"

That happened to me too! Driving along heading back to the test centre and a guy pull out from the right in front of me without indicating or looking anywhere! But then he thanked me for letting him out.... it was bizarre.

DriveSkill wrote: »

BTW its not just learner drivers this impacts, some people have a problem with small cars no matter who is driving them! On occasions I drive a number of different cars and there is a definite difference in peoples reaction depending on whether you are driving say a VW Passat vs a Nissan Micra - I thought I use to imagine it before but its true

Why is that actually? Is it a perception that people driving small cars are stupid or can't afford a bigger one and therefore are young and bad drivers? It makes no sense at all to me but it happens.

Gauge

DriveSkill wrote: »

BTW its not just learner drivers this impacts, some people have a problem with small cars no matter who is driving them! On occasions I drive a number of different cars and there is a definite difference in peoples reaction depending on whether you are driving say a VW Passat vs a Nissan Micra - I thought I use to imagine it before but its true

Try being a female learner in a micra :eek: granted, now I'm just a female in a micra. I don't know if it's in my head or what, but I seem to get beeped/tailgated/generally harrassed a lot more in my micra than I do in my dad's skoda octavia.

I did get bothered by beeping and harrassment when I first started driving, but my main driving rule is that any ego I have is checked at the door of my car, and I will not let myself by bothered by eejits and egomaniacs on the road, and I will never rise to them. Makes driving a lot more stress-free.

Couldn't believe my bad luck that it had to happen during my driving test though >_<

fonpokno

Gauge wrote: »

Try being a female learner in a micra :eek: granted, now I'm just a female in a micra. I don't know if it's in my head or what, but I seem to get beeped/tailgated/generally harrassed a lot more in my micra than I do in my dad's skoda octavia.

You and me both! I was lucky enough to do my test in my mam's car though, a corolla so people didn't hassle me too much. Still, L plates seem to present a target.

My dad actually drove my micra home from a service a few weeks ago and said he couldn't believe the amount of people cutting him off and beeping him and such.

sunnyside

Other road users HATE us, I really want the L plates gone.

Orla K

sunnyside wrote: »

Other road users HATE us, I really want the L plates gone.

No, I think I have had more people be nice to me. If I was wanting to turn right they would stop and let me on, even if I did stall and then crawled along, they would still wait. That just may be because I rarely notice the ...(keeping it clean) people that aren't nice.

timmywex

I gotta say i love when someone beeps at me, tailgates or does something to try to bully me in general.

Makes me want to piss them off more, so i go as slow as possible, thatll show them!

Ive had a nice fw run in with idiots beeping, tailgating with full beams on at night and the like, the best approach i find is do the exact opposite of what they want you to do.....slow down!

mickoneill30

Dara O Briain had a good section in one of his acts where he talks about this. He was in his 30s and getting lessons. At a junction he didn't take off like a rocket so the guy behind him leant on the horn. Dara said he got out and asked the guy if he knew what the big triangular L sign meant on the top of the car he was in.

It's totally stupid when you think of it. An L driver is obviously not going to be as confident or as skilled (although there are a lot of idiots that have passed their tests) as somebody who has more experience driving. They'll probably be slower to drive but it's not the end of the world. I just give them plenty of room and keep out of their way. We were all learners at one time.

mickoneill30

timmywex wrote: »

Ive had a nice fw run in with idiots beeping, tailgating with full beams on at night and the like, the best approach i find is do the exact opposite of what they want you to do.....slow down!

That might be the safest thing to do. If an idiot is behind me and hasn't left a safe distance to stop I slow down to an appropriate speed for his stopping distance. I don't need some muppet jammed into the back of my car if I need to brake suddenly.

Cabaal

I've never had much problems with tailgaters etc however when I was first learning to drive and when I first went onto the roads I stalled at a set of traffic lights about 10am on a Sunday morning.

The lad behind me was the only car around for about 500metres and got impatient straight away so he started to overtake me at the junction...however in the process he almost hit a cyclist on a racer who was on the outside....complete muppet, he was in his 50's

The stupid thing about it is I was in the instructors car with a sign on the roof so it was clear as day what I was doing

timmywex

Ill just add this.....

the worst offenders.....

taxi drivers
or
young boy racer types who have only just passed their own test

Orla K

timmywex wrote: »

Makes me want to piss them off more, so i go as slow as possible, thatll show them!

Ive had a nice fw run in with idiots beeping, tailgating with full beams on at night and the like, the best approach i find is do the exact opposite of what they want you to do.....slow down!

Another one is just tapping the brakes, they see your brake lights come on every few seconds, it confuses the hell out of them, they always move back from you too, I'd only be doing this when moving slowly.

hobochris

timmywex wrote: »

Ill just add this.....

the worst offenders.....

taxi drivers
or
young boy racer types who have only just passed their own test

Another one for that list is most middle aged drivers namly ones who got their licenses in the 70's, the government granted a large number of them licenses without ever having sat the test, many were even given licenses for categories of vehicle they have never even sat in.

Its a joke. It basically means we have a generation of potentially bad drivers on the roads to contend with aswell as the morans and idiots already on their. It pisses me off to no end knowing the hoops I had to jump through to get my full license to have these non qualified drivers be deemed as qualified, without ever having to prove they can drive Safely and obey the rules of the road; which looking round hey clearly cant.

</rant>

Loomis

I remember my first lesson where I was first to go onto a roundabout. I stalled and the guy immediately behind me blew me off the road. So of course I started panicking and rushing. The instructor told me to relax and sit where I was for a minute or too just to piss the guy off behind me.
Everyone can be impatient and you might blow the horn at someone stalling in front of you and be forgiven but seeing as I was in an instructors car with a huge L sign attached to the roof there is just no excuse for that kind of ignorance.

mickoneill30

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Everyone can be impatient and you might blow the horn at someone stalling in front of you and be forgiven

I dunno. I've never found any situation where somebody started their car faster and moved off just because the guy behind blasted the horn. It's happened to everyone. It might be mechanical or driver related. Either way the magic horn doesn't fix the problem and if someone blasts at me they find the remainder of their time behind me is going to be at an amble.

ztoical

Gauge wrote: »

Try being a female learner in a micra :eek: granted, now I'm just a female in a micra. I don't know if it's in my head or what, but I seem to get beeped/tailgated/generally harrassed a lot more in my micra than I do in my dad's skoda octavia.

I mainly drive a Micra but am also a name driver on my Dad's Land Rover Discovery and notice a massive difference when I'm driving it. I get tailgated alot in the Micra but never in the land rover. I have my full licence so I don't think its a learner thing but more a small car/bully thing.

Alanstrainor

Orla K wrote: »

Another one is just tapping the brakes, they see your brake lights come on every few seconds, it confuses the hell out of them, they always move back from you too, I'd only be doing this when moving slowly.

I would very strongly advise against doing the above. It's dangerous, and could cause an accident if someone behind you panics. Fighting fire with fire in these situations is not a good thing to do. Slowing down would probably be the most appropriate thing to do in those situations.

Cabaal

Orla K wrote: »

Another one is just tapping the brakes, they see your brake lights come on every few seconds, it confuses the hell out of them, they always move back from you too, I'd only be doing this when moving slowly.

You can get done for this and it only makes you look like a complete muppet, it would be better to not suggest this type of activity

Permabear

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Burtchaell

Irish roads are full of bullies. Some of the guys who bully you off the road bully other people just the same. Everybody had it when they were learning just some had worse experiences. I can understand them wanting to pass "L" drivers everybody does it at some stage but they could at least have the decency to wait till its safe and not do it on junctions and the like. I dont have L's and people sometimes drive on my ass so I really have fun then... If your on a regional road slow down... It really gets them angry. Turn up the music and do less than 50.:D

Permabear

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andrewh5

donegalfella wrote: »

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I agree. folks have been killed in the UK for retaliating.

Orla K

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I would very strongly advise against doing the above. It's dangerous, and could cause an accident if someone behind you panics. Fighting fire with fire in these situations is not a good thing to do. Slowing down would probably be the most appropriate thing to do in those situations.

I would just like to say I never do it that much(1-2 times), never at speeds that are anyway near fast and I never do it when they can pass me. I've only really done it when I'm driving through town in slow moving traffic. The hole point of it really is to make me look like a muppet, I want them to realise that I am learning. It does work in the sense that they give me more room.
I will say that it's not the safest way to do things but sometimes(very rarely) it might be safer to do it so the person behind me doesn't end up crashing into me. However most of the time what I do is turn left and go to my granny or someone else.
Although even at my grans, her neighbour parks her car to try get people 'stuck' and then if you tip her car in anyway she attacks you(never done it myself, thank god) I really just feel sorry for her because there is something wrong with her, also she's old and has no family.

Burtchaell

I dont see how slowing down is going to get someone killed... (and please dont leave a post explaining how) I would like to really express myself more freely on the matter but i dont think it would go down well:D

Nightwish

I started a thread similar to this about a year ago when I was learning to drive. I couldnt believe how much I was beeped at and the aggressive manner of motorists towards me. As a learner, those kind of incidents put you under greater pressure and I ended up doing things like cutting out or not changing gear properly. Even as I became a more confident driver, and stopped allowing aggressive motorists get to me, it didnt stop. I really noticed the difference once the L Plates came down. All of my friends have remarked that they've had similar experiences. Even my driving instructor said that the school car with L signs all over it, was regularly on the receiving end of bullying behaviour. Maybe some people think they were born with their pink licence in their hand.

Paj

Donegalfella's advice is entirely correct. Unfortunately as an L driver, or a driver under instruction there are times when you come across a certain type of individual who feels its ok to bully you. The best advice is to really just ignore them, calm yourself if you feel under pressure, if they keep up theiir behaviour then slow down and let them pass if you can. chances are you'll never see them again. Dont stoop to their level by engaging them

As an instructor i've seen some really amazingly bad driving and attitudes from others towards learners. I've seen some really nice people too mind you. But its always the aggressive ones that stick out.

Of all the incidents two really stick out for me, the first one i was at a set of lights one night with a student L driver, who had been perfectly fine all the way down the road, position and roadspeed were excellent and if it wasnt for the come on the roof one wouldnt havve guessed her a learner, but as sometimes happens she mistimed her clutch and stalled the engine at the lights. The Range Rover Sport behind us revved like thunder and overtook us......by driving on the footpath on the left hand side inside the traffic light pole. I was speechless. when i got home my girlfriend wouldnt believe me that someone would actually do that!!

but the absolute worst thing i've ever experienced - and you may think i'm making this up but i would swear it in court - was one day on the coast road in dublin, its basically a straight road with a series of traffic lights. The student in question was on his third lesson and was just a little slow, 3 - 4 seconds at finding his bite point when lights turned green, but he hadn't stalled and was getting up to speed at a normal pace after the starts. Well at one set of lights the car behind beeped, not once but about 5 times. I looked in my mirror and could see a wild haired lady, mid 50's in the toyota yaris and it was extremely close. I told the student not to worry and to concentrate on his own driving. next lights, more heavier beeps. I'm getting annoyed, but keep my poker face and we ignore her and move on. next lights same thing, but now she guns the yaris, overtaking in the face of oncoming traffic, i see that shes heading straight for a guy on the other side of the road so i lightly press my brake to allow her the get back in to our side of the road. she swerves in, and then about two seconds later, she slams, i mean slams, on her brakes. I'm 100% not lying here. she overtook us and slammed her brakes. They squealed. obviously i had to brake fiirmly to avoid rear ending her, the student said "did she just try to make us run into the back of her???" "uh, i think so!" she gunned the yaris up the road and took a very dodgy left turn, far too fast. One of my regrets is that dual controls are only clutch and brake, because if i had an accelerator i would have been after her to get her reg number, as it happened she was gone before either of us could remember it fully. 02 d something silver yaris. Crazy woman.

anyhow we stopped and got a cup of tea to calm us down after that, then continued on. The student passed his test first time by the way

challengemaster

Paj: There's some crappy people out there like that. Idd.

I tend to have a very, VERY short fuse when it comes to these sort of things, and won't be bullied.

If someone is tailing me far too close, I'll either flip on the rear fog lights, or move my left foot onto the brakes, and brake slightly, yet i'm still on the accelerator. I'll keep this up until they back off.

May not be appropriate as some have said, but it tends to get them off my tail.

Burtchaell

Ok yeah it is much better to leave people off when you have the chance. You will never see them again...

Nothing takes the biscuit though when you see people overtaking learners going into corners and coming up to the brow of a hill. If its gut wrenching for people watching them do it i wonder how they must feel. They must think they are immune to cars and other high speed objects or something.

John Mason

Its nothing to do with being a learner driver. i have a full licence and i come up against this muppets on a daily bases

it took every bit of effort on my part not to get out of car and the beat some sense into the muppet behind me yesterday.

the light turn green at a junction but i cant go anywhere as there was traffic sitting in the yellow box.

lunatic boy behind me was going nuts with his horn, he then decided to over take me !!!! and realised he couldnt go anywhere and was stuck on the wrong side of the road. he was shouting at me to reverse my car back to let him in.

i turned up the stero and looked the other way

Burtchaell

Yeah Dublin is pretty bad for that. You only get the occasional person like that. I dont remember any specific incident when i was honked at when i was on the old L's. Driving Dublin can really wreck my head though. Crazy drivers honking away at each other and you trying to concentrate on road signs on the M50:mad: and these people using the horn like some sort of way of talking to each other...

challengemaster

Best one actually I've seen. Some guy overtook me on the N6 between athlone and moate, going over the ghost island that's the turn off from the N6 onto the new bypass/motorway, and a bus only a few hundred yards up the road from the turn.

I kinda didn't believe that they just did it..

TwoShedsJackson

Paj wrote: »

a student L driver, who had been perfectly fine all the way down the road, position and roadspeed were excellent and if it wasnt for the come on the roof one wouldnt havve guessed her a learner,

I know it's very juvenile indeed, but that typo made me laugh

The Yaris story is a bit horrific alright, sounds like the driver was a genuine loon though.

When I was learning I only infrequently encountered aggression which I would have classed as probably being down to my having L plates up, and in fact one time I stalled repeatedly at a set of lights on the Belgard Road and despite the fact it took me five attempts to calm down and get going, not one of the six cars that had queued up behind me sat on the horn or made any gestures

Paj

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I know it's very juvenile indeed, but that typo made me laugh

just read it now and i laughed my head off too

i refuse to edit it, although obviously i meant CONE

challengemaster

Paj wrote: »

just read it now and i laughed my head off too

i refuse to edit it, although obviously i meant CONE

>_>

<_<

Keep that yoke under control! :pac:

JustAddWater

I'm full licenced driver not, tho not very long.

When I had my L plates up if anyone beeped me i'd have no hesitation in beeping back at them. Usually shuts them up

They seem to forget they were L drivers once... Unless they got their license in the amnesty a good bit back. If the L plates are clearly visible they can go to hell if they wanna beep me, only makes people more nervous and takes longer.

Permabear

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Wishbone Ash

donegalfella wrote: »

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After reading through the full thread tonight I was waiting for someone to say that. The bullies are noticed purely because of their arrogance but for each one, there are many others who are patient but they aren't noticed.

It must be related to size though because when I drove trucks and buses with L plates, and even though I made mistakes, I never recall anyone ever sounding their horn or behaving in an agressive manner.

Just for the record folks, my brother is the most unmannerly and rude driver imaginable. It's got to the stage where I refuse to travel in a car with him. The worst occasion ever was up in Letterkenny one day (donegalfella take note!). We were travelling down DeValera Road. The driver in front was straddling two lanes. So what, I thought, what's the hurry. The brother manages to get past him and then 'handbrakes' the car so that we go sideways blocking both lanes and gets out to remonstrate with the offending driver. I slunk down very low in the seat!

JustAddWater wrote: »

When I had my L plates up if anyone beeped me i'd have no hesitation in beeping back at them. Usually shuts them up

That is sad indeed and you are doing a disservice to other L drivers. Why drag yourself down to their level?

jordainius

I've noticed some subtle and some major differences on the roads since I passed my test a few days back and the only difference between now and then is that I no longer have L-plates stuck on the car.

In general I have noticed a dramatic decrease in the tailgating that happens to me, people seem to overtake me in a safer and more patient manner (they don't chop across me) and I am just noticing a general increase in respect and patience shown towards me. And this has helped me relax that bit more in my opinion and as a result it has probably even improved me as a driver a bit.

Also, I stalled my car in traffic once the other day, slow moving traffic, engine just cut out. Quickly restarted and got on with it. Car behind thought nothing of it. Did it a year ago with the L-plates on and the impatient gentleman behind me thought it would be helpful to honk his horn at me like a madman.

Now I am aware that the above example doesn't exactly prove anything, and I don't want to go making sweeping statements or anything, but I think its fair to say that its common knowledge that "L-plate rage" is a big problem, and surely people notice it most once they finally get to drive without those flippin L-plates on.

This is one thing I have taken from my time as a learner driver is that I am going to take it upon myself to show as much respect as possible to learner drivers I encounter. To give them those extra few yards when I'm driving behind, not to put them under any pressure, not to do anything to rush their decisions or anything that could make them panic.

(I know that I should treat all drivers the same but I think there's no harm in making a few small allowances for learners!)

I wish all learners the best of luck on the roads! One of the most important things you'll learn is your mentality on the road, to remain calm at all times. The technical skills of actually driving are the easy part, once you get your head right you'll be flying it!:D

I would love it if there was an ad campaign to discourage L-plate rage!

Permabear

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jordainius

donegalfella wrote: »

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My apologies :D

Permabear

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dudara

When learning, I had my rear L-plate stuck on the outside of my car, and it blew off one day on a dual carriageway. I forgot about it and didn't replace it for a while. When I did buy a new set and replaced it, I couldn't believe how much disrespect other drivers showed me. I hadn't noticed it before, but it became clear when I reannouced my L-status.

Be kind to L-drivers. I was lucky enough to learn the mechanics of driving when I was 12 on our farm, in a beat up old car, and I never had the issues of cutting out engines etc when I actually got onto the roads. But other learners are only starting out and still mastering the basic mechanics of driving. Give them a chance.