Legislation against carrying airsoft in public [Split from "no more importing..."]

doubletap

trentf wrote: »

Anyone stupid enough to go waving around an airsoft gun in public gets what they deserve and i think the doj is putting penalties in to cope with that in discussions with the iaa

theres already penalties for waving an airsoft gun in public, you go to jail on any number of firearms offences, as the weapon doesn't have to be real only be percieved as real so i cant figure out why tho DoJ and the IAA are in discussion over this issue when theres already laws in place.

kdouglas

I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I am aware, the current legislation requires that a member of the public perceives a threat from you by your carrying the device and they can press charges or it must be used in the commission of a crime. The new proposals will address this and make it a specific offence for which the Gardai will have more powers to prosecute people (i.e. for walking down the street with one tucked into their trouser waistband)

fayer

doubletap wrote: »

theres already penalties for waving an airsoft gun in public, you go to jail on any number of firearms offences, as the weapon doesn't have to be real only be percieved as real so i cant figure out why tho DoJ and the IAA are in discussion over this issue when theres already laws in place.

Why, is because the current legal tools available to deal with someone carrying a RIF in a irresponsible manor are too difficult to use and require many items to be proved including intent, which makes prosecution very difficult.

We have called for a strict liability offence to be brought in with respect of this, no intent to cause or do X will be required to lock someone up. As it stands a big mess could be caused by some dum ass carrying a Glock in his pocket and someone seeing it, you will find it very hard to prove intent and it is very likely conviction will not be secured.

heyjay14

kdouglas wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I am aware, the current legislation requires that a member of the public perceives a threat from you by your carrying the device and they can press charges or it must be used in the commission of a crime. The new proposals will address this and make it a specific offence for which the Gardai will have more powers to prosecute people (i.e. for walking down the street with one tucked into their trouser waistband)

I think your right, at the moment a person has to use the devise in a threatening manner for the guards to be able to react to it. Thats not to say they cant just come and take it off you and then send you on your merry way:p

doubletap

as far as i know no threatening action needs to take place as long as the member of the public thinks the weapon is real the Garda will act.

heyjay14

doubletap wrote: »

as far as i know no threatening action needs to take place as long as the member of the public thinks the weapon is real the Garda will act.

Actually i think your right, if a member of the public beleaves the devise to be real the guards can react..... But i think the user has to be carrying the gun in a public place, I dont think they can do anything if your say putting it in your car.. I could be wrong however.

fayer

doubletap wrote: »

as far as i know no threatening action needs to take place as long as the member of the public thinks the weapon is real the Garda will act.

Acting and securing swift and easy prosecution are two different things. The new move is designed to smooth the process and remove the need to have an alleged assaulted person stand in the dock and demonstrate how the were in actual fear of harm. When the defendant was carrying the device in his pocket, or back of jeans and a member of the public only sees a portion of the device and reports based on this certainty of conviction is very small.

You are correct laws are their, these are just stricter laws in this respect to aid the justice system. Nothing any responsible airsofter should be afraid of.

gandalf

doubletap wrote: »

as far as i know no threatening action needs to take place as long as the member of the public thinks the weapon is real the Garda will act.

And they report it. If they do not report it nothing happens. With whats proposed if you have it out in public the Gardai can automatically take action and not wait for a complaint.

MacAonghusa

gandalf wrote: »

And they report it. If they do not report it nothing happens. With whats proposed if you have it out in public the Gardai can automatically take action and not wait for a complaint.

A Gardaí can take a gun off you anyway even if there's no complaint made so I don't see the point of additional laws.

gandalf

Can they? If the AEG or GBB or whatever is under the legal limit and unless a complaint has been made I'd argue that they can't or you can go and claim it back at the station. Its very grey at the moment. For the sake of the sport that grey area has to be removed and the irresponsible idiots who in the majority are not actual airsofters can be dealt with legally.

It also covers those skirmishing illegally nicely as well.

MacAonghusa

gandalf wrote: »

Can they?

They can and do.

gandalf wrote: »

For the sake of the sport that grey area has to be removed and the irresponsible idiots who are in the majority are not actual airsofters can be dealt with legally.

I admit I haven't looked deep into it but I see little benefits for anyone. It could mean a rise in the number of "airsoft incidents" (hardly +ve for the sport), people potentially in court for what is essentially a very minor thing (specific cases obviously) and more court time & expense (my tax money) spent on what would be very minor incidents when compared to the serious incidents of crime happening every day around the country.

p.s. what is "illegal" skirmishing? This could affect a lot of 'legal skirmishers' too.

Masada

Of course they can., they dont "need" the member of the public to make the assault complaint and to press charges to actually follow through with a case., are we forgetting the garda himself is a human being? and my well mistake the gun for a real gun himself, even if for only a second. therefore you would be prosecuted under the charge of assaulting him, by him.,

heyjay14

MacAonghusa wrote: »

p.s. what is "illegal" skirmishing? This could affect a lot of 'legal skirmishers' too.

Illegal skirmishing is when a few lads go into a woods somewere and just start playing, without permission from landowners or insurance for the land.....

gandalf

MacAonghusa wrote: »

They can and do.

Fair enough I was expressing my opinion.

I admit I haven't looked deep into it but I see little benefits for anyone. It could mean a rise in the number of "airsoft incidents" (hardly +ve for the sport), people potentially in court for what is essentially a very minor thing (specific cases obviously) and more court time & expense (my tax money) spent on what would be very minor incidents when compared to the serious incidents of crime happening every day around the country.

p.s. what is "illegal" skirmishing? This could affect a lot of 'legal skirmishers' too.

In the short term it could cause a rise in Airsoft incidents but in the long term it will all but eliminate them coupled with retailer licensing. No more stall stands selling springers etc to idiots who go out and give the rest of us a bad name. That's a major plus point for me.

Well I'd class illegal skirmishing the twits who went out into Coillte woods without permission and again are giving the majority a bad name with Coillte, the Dept of Justice and the Gardai. If this gives another legal avenue to pursue and prohibit them then wonderful. This is going off the original topic so please feel free to set up a new thread an we can continue on there.

MacAonghusa

heyjay14 wrote: »

Illegal skirmishing is when a few lads go into a woods somewere and just start playing, without permission from landowners or insurance for the land.....

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing "illegal" about that.
It may be stupid and irresponsible but hardly illegal.

Under the proposed law you could have permission and insurance and still get done. Great for the sport alright. :rolleyes:

kdouglas

MacAonghusa wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing "illegal" about that.
It may be stupid and irresponsible but hardly illegal.

At the very least, you would be trespassing, which is most definitely illegal.

MacAonghusa wrote:

Under the proposed law you could have permission and insurance and still get done. Great for the sport alright. :rolleyes:

The proposed law is for public places so it wouldn't apply to an airsoft site, however, it hasn't been enacted yet, but an insured and legitimately run airsoft site would give you a defence against potential prosecution anyway.

fayer

gandalf wrote: »

Well I'd class illegal skirmishing the twits who went out into Coillte woods without permission and again are giving the majority a bad name with Coillte, the Dept of Justice and the Gardai. If this gives another legal avenue to pursue and prohibit them then wonderful. This is going off the original topic so please feel free to set up a new thread an we can continue on there.

Coillte woods was exactly what the DoJ spoke to us about and is taking very seriously. Anyone who dose so without the proper permission should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law as they are risking the safety of our sport.

heyjay14

fayer wrote: »

Coillte woods was exactly what the DoJ spoke to us about and is taking very seriously.

Never heard about what happened at Coillte woods, what was it exactly........

gandalf

People have been skirmishing illegally in Coillte Woods to an extent that they have No Airsofting signs up.

heyjay14

Wow, that does sound bad.....

hrta

It has to be used in a threatening manner, any were is a crime.

Having one in a public place with out a good resson, and are know to the garda, is a crime.

A Garda can take any thing on your person, in public place, that he thinks could be used in a crime or was used in a crime.

the garda must then send a file to the DPP, to see if a crime has taken place,
and then you get your day in court.

And yes, i have been here, and this is how it works.

MacAonghusa

kdouglas wrote: »

At the very least, you would be trespassing, which is most definitely illegal.

If it's private land.

kdouglas wrote: »

The proposed law is for public places so it wouldn't apply to an airsoft site, however, it hasn't been enacted yet, but an insured and legitimately run airsoft site would give you a defence against potential prosecution anyway.

An airsoft site could be on public land (w/permission etc); how will that be handled? Or will they ruin it for many people and ban it on public land altogether?

gandalf

MacAonghusa wrote: »

An airsoft site could be on public land (w/permission etc); how will that be handled? Or will they ruin it for many people and ban it on public land altogether?

I am not aware of any public land where written permission has been given? Are you?

TheDoc

MacAonghusa wrote: »

If it's private land.



An airsoft site could be on public land (w/permission etc); how will that be handled? Or will they ruin it for many people and ban it on public land altogether?

How can airsoft be played on public land? If its with the land owners permission, it is his/her private land.

Public land is civilian parks, beaches, etc etc etc.

Strolling into coillte woods have a site and playing airsoft on the verbal whim that its ok , is pretty idiotic.

However if you know someone who has X amount of acres of woodland forestry, and he allows you to use it, and you are NOT, point to stress, NOT taking money from players, then thats ok, as far as I'm aware.

It starts getting seriously ****ing illegal when players are being charged money to entry on land that is not okeyed by the land owner, and is not insured.

Youll have to forgive me if its all a bit hazy, but itake very little interest in it, i just wont go play on land or sites that sound dodgy.

gandalf

I'll be splitting this discussion off the main topic when I get home. If any of the mods want to jump in before me feel free. I am up to my ears here and only able to jump in and out of the thread every now and then.

MacAonghusa

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

How can airsoft be played on public land? If its with the land owners permission, it is his/her private land.

Coillte land is public land not private land. To play there you could get written permission. I have spoken to them so am not just guessing.

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

However if you know someone who has X amount of acres of woodland forestry, and he allows you to use it, and you are NOT, point to stress, NOT taking money from players, then thats ok, as far as I'm aware.

Ok it's a different discussion but why not take money from players? Maybe the land owner wants to be compensated!?!

MacAonghusa

gandalf wrote: »

I'll be splitting this discussion off the main topic when I get home. If any of the mods want to jump in before me feel free. I am up to my ears here and only able to jump in and out of the thread every now and then.

It's alright, didn't mean to take it off topic, slow day at work

hrta

not all Coillte woods are on public land, so Coillte woods are on private land, but you would need land owners and Coillte permission to use it, a lot of real shooters use this land and have to get land owners and Coillte permission to shoot on there lands.

kdouglas

MacAonghusa wrote: »

An airsoft site could be on public land (w/permission etc); how will that be handled? Or will they ruin it for many people and ban it on public land altogether?

I'm sure the new law will be done in such a way as to cater for these possibilities, however it's intended purpose is to prevent illegal skirmishing, and moreso, those who carry airsoft devices in a public place (i.e. where members of the public are present) can be prosecuted for doing so.

I'm not a legal professional, nor have I ever claimed to be, I merely tried to help clarify your questions. If you want a definitive answer from the IAA Legal Advisor on this matter as to what the IAA will be putting forward, then please contact the IAA committee via email at committee@irishairsoft.ie

gandalf wrote: »

I am not aware of any public land where written permission has been given? Are you?

Yes, Coillte have given permission to South East Airsofters Club and Midlands Airsoft Club to use Coillte land for airsoft use.

I'll split the off-topic posts while I'm here...

Dr_Pepper

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Ok it's a different discussion but why not take money from players? Maybe the land owner wants to be compensated!?!

Once you take money it becomes profit based and therefore commercial, if and when this happens you then need insurance and a VAT number and to be a registered business etc, so you become a club /site.
Then its not the same as playing on ur mates land.

MacAonghusa

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

Once you take money it becomes profit based and therefore commercial, if and when this happens you then need insurance and a VAT number and to be a registered business etc, so you become a club /site.
Then its not the same as playing on ur mates land.

Do you have any reference for that?

gandalf

kdouglas wrote: »

Yes, Coillte have given permission to South East Airsofters Club and Midlands Airsoft Club to use Coillte land for airsoft use.

Didn't realise that. That's excellent news but also the reason we need to stamp out the un-authorised skirmishing occurring because they could easily remove this permission if airsoft gets a back name because of illegal skirmishing.

I'll split the off-topic posts while I'm here...

Thanks Keith as I said I am up to ears here in work for some reason today (which is a good thing!).

hrta

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

Once you take money it becomes profit based and therefore commercial, if and when this happens you then need insurance and a VAT number and to be a registered business etc, so you become a club /site.
Then its not the same as playing on ur mates land.

You have to have insurance, infact you need more insurance to use state lands, there is more risk using of public land.

Dr_Pepper

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Do you have any reference for that?

NO offense here m8 but wtf? This looks like common sense to me.
If you allow people onto your land you need a minimum of "public liability".
By taking money you are comercialisng the reason for being there and are therefore allowing them onto your land in exchange for a service.

Hell the IAA committee need insurance in case one of you trip over a foot at an IAA meeting.

If you still don't get it i suggest you ask your local Garda.

moggser

heyjay14 wrote: »

, I dont think they can do anything if your say putting it in your car.. I could be wrong however.

you couldn be more wrong there i had a friend of mine transfer his bar 10 from his car to a rental car and before he had handed the keys of the car over to the garage there was 2 police cars and 1 van on the scene he was arrested but not charged bar 10 was takin from him and tested and he produced a lot of paper work and stuff proving to them that he was abiding by the 1j limit he got it back in the end
so be under no illlusion that they cant or wont act if your seen with one so be carefull thats all

heyjay14

moggser wrote: »

you couldn be more wrong there i had a friend of mine transfer his bar 10 from his car to a rental car and before he had handed the keys of the car over to the garage there was 2 police cars and 1 van on the scene he was arrested but not charged bar 10 was takin from him and tested and he produced a lot of paper work and stuff proving to them that he was abiding by the 1j limit he got it back in the end
so be under no illlusion that they cant or wont act if your seen with one so be carefull thats all

My bad, really didnt think there would be that much contraversy over a airsoft gun...... Its abit rediculaus that we have to worry about our airsoft equipment being taken off us while we are bringing them to a game or something. (its rather annoying actually)

Chuck the Buck

Whether or not in need insurance you should have it to cover both the players and the site owner. As for permission if you are using anyones land then you need written permission for that land so that if something happens you don't end up getting done for trespassing to try and divert some of the liability from the land owner.

As for wandering onto Coillte land for a quick game because you believe its you're god given right then you really need to step back and take a reality check. Its my understanding you need permission from them to conduct any sports, and to get permission you need insurance too. Its hard enough to convince Coillte to let you use their land without scumbags coming in and destroying the woods and making life even more difficult. :mad:

Chuck the Buck

heyjay14 wrote: »

My bad, really didnt think there would be that much contraversy over a airsoft gun...... Its abit rediculaus that we have to worry about our airsoft equipment being taken off us while we are bringing them to a game or something. (its rather annoying actually)

Don't wander about the place in public with the stuff and keep it in a bag (that doesn't look like a gun in a bag) and you should be fine.

Dr_Pepper

heyjay14 wrote: »

My bad, really didnt think there would be that much contraversy over a airsoft gun...... Its abit rediculaus that we have to worry about our airsoft equipment being taken off us while we are bringing them to a game or something. (its rather annoying actually)

Players should bring their cars into the sites car park and then remove them from the car/bag not before. Tbh its simple to do so i don't see why ppl wouldn't do it.

moggser

heyjay14 wrote: »

My bad, really didnt think there would be that much contraversy over a airsoft gun...... Its abit rediculaus that we have to worry about our airsoft equipment being taken off us while we are bringing them to a game or something. (its rather annoying actually)

hmmmmm ok so you think that the Gardi should leave you be while you might be seen brandishing what appears to be a offencive weapon? as already pointed out your equipment belongs in the bag from your inside your house to the changing room of the site you intend playing in and everything in the garden will be rosey and it might seem annoying to you that ya have to do that but ask your self which is more annoying arrested or looking after your stuff in a responsible manor

heyjay14

moggser wrote: »

hmmmmm ok so you think that the Gardi should leave you be while you might be seen brandishing what appears to be a offencive weapon? as already pointed out your equipment belongs in the bag from your inside your house to the changing room of the site you intend playing in and everything in the garden will be rosey and it might seem annoying to you that ya have to do that but ask your self which is more annoying arrested or looking after your stuff in a responsible manor

I just meant its annoying that this is supposed to be a sport and yet we have to go hiding our equipment from neighbours and the like, i would never bring my gun outside without it being in a bag, i just find its annoying that if a neighbour should see you, you will proberly end up explaining to the guards and then trying to get your stuff back as it gets taken away from you for testing..... Thats what i find annoying.....

moggser

well explain to your nieghbours what exactly you do and inform them of the sport that way it saves any hassle my neighbours know what about me so they aint confuzzeld when i bring my gear in a safe manor about

dont take me up the wrong way or think i'm picking on ya or anything

BornToKill

Transparency would solve that one for you. Then having one in public just wouldn't be an issue. There's no reason this new measure should have any effect on a player going to a skirmish site or on a collector.

Stone.cold

MacAonghusa wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing "illegal" about that.
It may be stupid and irresponsible but hardly illegal.

Entering Coillte woodland to conduct any form of sport without permission and posing any threat to the general public is considered trespassing and therefore illegal.

would any of you walk down the street carrying an AEG (im hoping thats a big all round NO) right and you think skirmishing in a woods where no knows your there you have no permission and no insurance to do it is any different, what about the poor sod out walking his dog strolling with his girlfriend or just out for a walk, turns a corner and comes face to face with a fully clad cammo'd individual with a gun or worse still pops up into the line of fire and gets a face full of bb's, if its ok to use Coillte land for the odd skirmish with your mates why does three forests in longford have "airsoft is prohibited" signs hanging in them and unfortunatly more to come.

Now lets talk about cost, these little friendly get togethar in the woods for a skirmish are biodegradable bb's used...... someone has to clean them up that and the empty bottles, food wrappers, medic bandages not to mention the private property damaged by locks cut off, fences knocked down to give access to cars, who pays for this? Coillte spend thousands cleaning woodlands repairing fences and other damaged caused not to mention the measure they have to take to prevent it happening again.

know im fully aware that most if not all of this will fall on certain deaf ears but think about what your doing not only are these woodlands the most beautiful places in ireland but they are amazing places for legal permitted airsoft games. So why F**k it up for the rest of us go to a site join a club, and i have heard the "but were in a recession bit" if you cant afford it pack them away till you can. Let the rest of us enjoy our sport PLEASE

heyjay14

Stone.cold wrote: »

Entering Coillte woodland to conduct any form of sport without permission and posing any threat to the general public is considered trespassing and therefore illegal.

would any of you walk down the street carrying an AEG (im hoping thats a big all round NO) right and you think skirmishing in a woods where no knows your there you have no permission and no insurance to do it is any different, what about the poor sod out walking his dog strolling with his girlfriend or just out for a walk, turns a corner and comes face to face with a fully clad cammo'd individual with a gun or worse still pops up into the line of fire and gets a face full of bb's, if its ok to use Coillte land for the odd skirmish with your mates why does three forests in longford have "airsoft is prohibited" signs hanging in them and unfortunatly more to come.

Now lets talk about cost, these little friendly get togethar in the woods for a skirmish are biodegradable bb's used...... someone has to clean them up that and the empty bottles, food wrappers, medic bandages not to mention the private property damaged by locks cut off, fences knocked down to give access to cars, who pays for this? Coillte spend thousands cleaning woodlands repairing fences and other damaged caused not to mention the measure they have to take to prevent it happening again.

know im fully aware that most if not all of this will fall on certain deaf ears but think about what your doing not only are these woodlands the most beautiful places in ireland but they are amazing places for legal permitted airsoft games. So why F**k it up for the rest of us go to a site join a club, and i have heard the "but were in a recession bit" if you cant afford it pack them away till you can. Let the rest of us enjoy our sport PLEASE

+1

trentf

I think the correct way to deal with this problem is as follows(just my opinion) maybe if there are any iaa members reading this they could suggest some of the following to the doj.

That if a person is caught in public with an airsoft gun and is waving it around or brandishing it in a threatening manner. that person is subject to the following:

- Obviously name on garda records which is already the case but also depending on severity of what was being done and age, background of person i.e not a criminal or used in robbery a mandatory fine to be issued to that person for misuse of airsoft in public for intial charge and make this a hefty one (goverment would be certainly in favour of rasing revenue this way) and often no better way to hit someone them in the pocket hard making them think twice about ever doing this again.

Because this is an issue for the gardai usually the gardai would send a file to dpp but in the case of airsoft this would waste much resources and time for them and may become out of hand that the gardai complain and airsoft is banned completely that is why the above suggestion is made. We have to remember that although airsoft looks like a real firearm it is incapable of causing harm physically and all harm is emotional if even that. Just trying to put it in context and maybe this point can be made to doj also.

Obviously if anyone was stupid enough to try it again the gardai would have the option of giving that person a prison sentence.

For the purpose of the Airsoft community and iaa anyone caught doing the above a

(1) List passed and shared from gardai or doj to iaa list for banning of sales to that person via all irish retailers. Ie name and address passed on to retailers in case some other person tried to order for them this would match credit card info. Any family member cannot also order for this person.

(2) Person is banned from ever joining iaa or getting involved in airsoft events
i.e g-tac etc

(3) Person's name is on irish airsoft association list and all members are made aware i.e kind of internal policing

(4) Person is banned from ever owning an airsoft device again either from retailer or from second hand sales and if caught can be reported to gardai and big prison sentence follows.

(5) disclaimers on all irish retailers site's outlining the above penalities so people can not plead innocent to the misuse, when purchasing.

I think these steps would definetely meet the doj's requirements and ensure airsoft is policed properly and real penalties lie in store for those who use airsoft devices in public. Hopefully this covers most if not all the possible misues of airsoft.

CrazyRabbit

<--gives support to any sensible legislation that punishes muppets using/displaying airsoft kit in a public area or in a threatening manner.

<--Not so happy about the potentially illegal import restrictions, but that's another topic and covered in my post on the IAA forums.

Busta Hyman

<

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couldent give a monkeys about import restrictions as long as i can still shoot ppl in a controlled and safe environment:D

also i feel that ANYONE brandishing an airsoft device in public needs a good swift kick in the nuts however it may be administered. i.e. big fine / court apperance and punishment / a visit to a prison shower or even the good ol fashined kick in the nuts with a steel toed boot. whatever happens we do need to behave ourselves for this sport to survive in there turbulent times.

Dr_Pepper

Busta Hyman wrote: »

<

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couldent give a monkeys about import restrictions as long as i can still shoot ppl in a controlled and safe environment:D

also i feel that ANYONE brandishing an airsoft device in public needs a good swift kick in the nuts however it may be administered. i.e. big fine / court apperance and punishment / a visit to a prison shower or even the good ol fashined kick in the nuts with a steel toed boot. whatever happens we do need to behave ourselves for this sport to survive in there turbulent times.

Sometime, just sometimes i like you

Busta Hyman

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

Sometime, just sometimes i like you

that means soo much m8

MacAonghusa

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

NO offense here m8 but wtf? This looks like common sense to me.
If you allow people onto your land you need a minimum of "public liability".
By taking money you are comercialisng the reason for being there and are therefore allowing them onto your land in exchange for a service.

Hell the IAA committee need insurance in case one of you trip over a foot at an IAA meeting.

If you still don't get it i suggest you ask your local Garda.

Obviosuly your understanding of public liability and mine are different. Insurance is not always needed.

Ask the Gardaí? lol like they'd know