Making the future of Irish multi-lingual.

anladmór

Sorry yeah I mean making Irish people speak more than one language.

I speak both English and Portuguese(my parents language) but I find that Irish people have a problem of being unable to speak more than one language(English), contrast that to the Netherlands where students can often speak 3 different languages.

How would you advise we revive the Irish language and also as the question states make the irish population become multi-lingual?

Soldie

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by 'Irish' I assume you mean Ireland, and by 'multi-lingual' I assume you mean bi-lingual. If that's the case, why should we strive towards that?

I don't think Irish should be mandatory in schools, but I do think it should be taught a lot better - the entire syllabus needs to be overhauled.

passive

I think..um.. yes... what?

LordSutch

To speak Irish in other languages in the future?

Dob74

Polish will be our native tougne, if current immigration trends continue

sceptre

Dob74 wrote: »

Polish will be our native tougne, if current immigration trends continue

And if other trends continue the Sugababes will be entirely caucasian by 2015 and bad teen pop will never die, just like disco.

Grudaire

Well....

Any immigrants should be able to speak both Irish and English to a reasonable degree, and should be made take classes

However the attitude towards Irish needs to change in the country. I sent an email to the local politicians half in Irish. none of them replied with the slightest piece of Irish. Ryanair can't handle fada's on flights... unless you are flying from France...

oscarBravo

Cliste wrote: »

Any immigrants should be able to speak both Irish and English to a reasonable degree, and should be made take classes

As someone who lives with an immigrant - one with better English than a substantial percentage of Irish people - when more than 50% of Irish people are fluent in Irish, I'll support a call for immigrants to be required to speak it.

Mena

Cliste wrote: »

Well....

Any immigrants should be able to speak both Irish and English to a reasonable degree, and should be made take classes

I speak four languages already, I don't necessarily want to speak a fifth, but can I ask you, what your reason would be behind requiring Irish to be taught? I've been here going on nine years now and not once have I ever had the need to be able to speak, read or comprehend Irish.

If we were in France for example, I would expect myself and any other immigrant to speak French and English at the very least, however in Ireland, from an immigrants point-of-view... and I apologise in advance for saying this, but the Irish language appears to be dead, or at least dying.

And I don't see much call to revive it currently either.

Permabear

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Grudaire

oscarBravo wrote: »

As someone who lives with an immigrant - one with better English than a substantial percentage of Irish people - when more than 50% of Irish people are fluent in Irish, I'll support a call for immigrants to be required to speak it.

Given the OP's question: How would you advise we revive the Irish language.

I'd prefere if this was a thread about how, not why (and given the wording of the question I think it is, however you are the mod )

Mena wrote: »

I speak four languages already, I don't necessarily want to speak a fifth, but can I ask you, what your reason would be behind requiring Irish to be taught? I've been here going on nine years now and not once have I ever had the need to be able to speak, read or comprehend Irish.

If we were in France for example, I would expect myself and any other immigrant to speak French and English at the very least, however in Ireland, from an immigrants point-of-view... and I apologise in advance for saying this, but the Irish language appears to be dead, or at least dying.

And I don't see much call to revive it currently either.

Again above, however if this is the whole 'should we bother' debate tell me.

And you say it's dead but it's not.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Speak all 20 something official languages?

Mena

Cliste wrote: »

Again above, however if this is the whole 'should we bother' debate tell me.

I don't know, but from what I can see, not many Irish appear to think we should... However, with my daughter being taught Irish both my Wife and I feel it is something we'll have a crack at in the very near future.

Cliste wrote: »

And you say it's dead but it's not.

Point of clarification: I said it "appears" to be dead, I did not say that it is.

Grudaire

Mena wrote: »

I don't know, but from what I can see, not many Irish appear to think we should... However, with my daughter being taught Irish both my Wife and I feel it is something we'll have a crack at in the very near future.

Well if and when you do don't get put off by any Gaelgeoir's who insist on perfect grammer.

Mena wrote: »

Point of clarification: I said it "appears" to be dead, I did not say that it is.

Apologies, however I wouldn't say that it's dying either. Stagnant would be a fair description

Permabear

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Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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Then what do you want?

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think that while only 3% speak it daily that far far more have a pretty damn good level of Irish (ie more then the cúpla focal)

Permabear

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LordSutch

I would love to know the real reason why only 3% (approx) of people in Ireland are fluent in speaking Irish, I mean to say, there must be some deep seated reason for this anomoly seeing as students are coming straight out of Secondary School & 'Uni' fluent in Spanish/ French/ German etc.

So why doesnt 'Irish' stick in peoples brains?

Permabear

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Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's a fair complaint. however I would like to see equal opportunities for Irish in Ireland. From the government that is. So that should I choose to speak Irish they reply in Irish, just like should you email the Department of education and the civil servant is a Gaeilgeoir you would expect a reply in English

donegalfella wrote: »

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And I live in Dublin (Now let's put the whole location thing aside)

I said before I thought this thread was the how, not the why..
and the TG4 ones are available, does that make Irish a real used language?

And Camelot you need a statistics lesson , 3% speak it daily at home. lots more can speak Irish

lmtduffy

I believe this to do with Irish never appearing practical to dedicate time to for the vast majority of people.

Unlike Spanish, French or German you may need these to travel and many people travel.

Your probably more likely to need to bump into fluent French, German or Spanish people than fluent Irish speaking people(not any kind of comment on immigration just that most Irish people would speak foreign languages better than Irsish.

I think primary school students at least and probably secondary students should have to spend some amount of time every year in the gaeltachts as part of school. (this would also have a lot of other benefits to students, ie change of surroundings, lifestyle and greater experience all round)

And in my experience those who can speak good level of Irish are those who have been to a gaeltacht.

Permabear

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siobhan.murphy

heaven knows there are loads of irish night classes going on, and we should as Irish people learn our native tongue

Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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:rolleyes:

donegalfella wrote: »

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Ceart go leor mo chara. Ní masla persanta é seo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Don't get me wrong I partially agree. I myself would cut down on the documentation first (nobody reads most of it in any language)

donegalfella wrote: »

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Now hang on listen

-This isn't a 'should we' thread, it's a 'how thread', ask me again in another thread
-don't spout bullsh*t at me, have you actually developed your opinion on the topic at all before posting?

Permabear

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Grudaire

siobhan.murphy wrote: »

heaven knows there are loads of irish night classes going on, and we should as Irish people learn our native tongue

Easier said then done. There is almost an anti-Irish culture here. Many people have a mental block about the language for different reasons.

I think more then classes are needed to have a proper revival of the language. The GAA could have a role to play (as could the other sporting bodies) it is always good to read the page of Irish in the match programmes, and the use of Áth Cliath promotes the language in a non-sinister way (ie you won't fail your leaving)

Crann na Beatha

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Grudaire

Iolar wrote: »

Why is it that Isreal can bring back Hebrew from the dead while we the Irish people flog money continually to this language with little apparent benefits?

Because the Irish people like the idea of Irish (at least I think they do), however when it comes to the effort bit of the job it's less appetising.

I would however like to point out the successes that have gone on without even using State money - Firefox and Linux are available in Irish (In fact lots of stuff is)

To really get Irish going the effort needs to come from the people supported by the government (eg Gaeltachts)

Crann na Beatha

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FruitLover

Cliste wrote: »

Any immigrants should be able to speak both Irish and English to a reasonable degree, and should be made take classes

What's the point of that? Irish people won't be able to understand them.

Iolar wrote: »

we as a nation have to think very seriously of the path we are taking especially in regard to our culture and our language before they are both eroded completely.

What do you mean we "have to"? Why? Is there a significant, appreciable consequence if we don't bother?

You can practice Irish all you like, and best of luck with it, but I couldn't give a sh1te if it dies. And I'd say people with my attitude are probably in the majority.

Camelot wrote: »

So why doesnt 'Irish' stick in peoples brains?

It's worthless to most people, and consequently, uninteresting. It's difficult to learn something you have no interest in. And as pointed out above, if you can't practice something you learned, you can't retain it.

P. Breathnach

Iolar wrote: »

Why is it that Isreal can bring back Hebrew from the dead while we the Irish people flog money continually to this language with little apparent benefits?

The people who settled in Israel spoke a wide variety of languages, and Hebrew served as a lingua franca.

In Ireland, almost all people (except for infants and a few of our more recent immigrants) are able to speak good English, so whenever a group of different language backgrounds meet, English is the common language.

I use Irish a few times a year, usually when I holiday in Gaeltacht areas. It gives me some pleasure to be able to do so.

siobhan.murphy

Cliste wrote: »

Easier said then done. There is almost an anti-Irish culture here. Many people have a mental block about the language for different reasons.

I think more then classes are needed to have a proper revival of the language. The GAA could have a role to play (as could the other sporting bodies) it is always good to read the page of Irish in the match programmes, and the use of Áth Cliath promotes the language in a non-sinister way (ie you won't fail your leaving)

a start could be listening to RnG or even watching the nuacht..

turgon

donegalfella has a very good point, imagine we all learned French instead of Irish in school??? It would contribute a lot more to "knowledge economy" than that sad excuse for a tongue does.

Grudaire

Iolar wrote: »

The Welsh are another example a proud people of their heritage and language we as a nation have to think very seriously of the path we are taking especially in regard to our culture and our language before they are both eroded completely.

That's something that could also be looked at, closer language ties between all the celtic nations, it is really only practical for Uladh Irish and Scottish Irish

siobhan.murphy wrote: »

a start could be listening to RnG or even watching the nuacht..

It really depends on the person themselves. There is stuff there alright, and TG4 has some great show as well.

Soldie

I think some posters are missing an important point. The fact that most Irish people have little to no interest in the Irish language isn't anti-Irish, nor is it a lack of pride in one's culture (if such a thing exists). The reality is that, sad as it may be, the Irish language simply isn't a part of contemporary Irish culture any more - or at the very most, an increasingly small component. The romantic notion that we must revive the language in order reinforce a national identity is extremely primitivist, and it is entirely out-of-touch with modern-day Ireland. While it's unfortunate that the language was stamped out over the course of our history, the reality is that it happened, and we'd be best making peace with that instead of pumping more money into a plan that clearly isn't working.

I'd wholeheartedly support a complete overhaul of the antiquated secondary school Irish syllabus, but I'd also contend that it should not be a mandatory class. As a matter of fact, I think such measures may even result in something of a mini-revival of the language - given the fact that many people's distaste for the language comes as a result of them associating it with having crappy Irish poets rammed down their throats in secondary school.

Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

I think some posters are missing an important point. The fact that most Irish people have little to no interest in the Irish language isn't anti-Irish, nor is it a lack of pride in one's culture (if such a thing exists).

I agree thus far

turgon wrote: »

donegalfella has a very good point, imagine we all learned French instead of Irish in school??? It would contribute a lot more to "knowledge economy" than that sad excuse for a tongue does.

Soldie wrote: »

The reality is that, sad as it may be, the Irish language simply isn't a part of contemporary Irish culture any more - or at the very most, an increasingly small component. The romantic notion that we must revive the language in order reinforce a national identity is extremely primitivist, and it is entirely out-of-touch with modern-day Ireland. While it's unfortunate that the language was stamped out over the course of our history, the reality is that it happened, and we'd be best making peace with that instead of pumping more money into a plan that clearly isn't working.

Off topic in my opinion

Soldie wrote: »

I'd wholeheartedly support a complete overhaul of the antiquated secondary school Irish syllabus, but I'd also contend that it should not be a mandatory class. As a matter of fact, I think such measures may even result in something of a mini-revival of the language - given the fact that many people's distaste for the language comes as a result of them associating it with having crappy Irish poets rammed down their throats in secondary school.

I have to say that the secondary school sylabus is a bit mad alright. They treat Irish far far too much like English (and I hated English). I disagree about removing the compulsory aspect of Irish, unless English is also made non-compulsary (now I'm going off topic).

I think that there is something to changing the sylabus, but how can a change to the sylubus bring around a like of Irish?

SkepticOne

I think most people will agree that simply teaching it in schools, no matter how well it is taught, will not make it a living language. Merely being able to speak a language doesn't mean that you will speak it. The only way is to create communities of sufficient size (for example a city) where it is the main language. I don't know how you would do this and I'm not sure it would be worth it in any case, but for me that is the only point in knowing a language, i.e, to participate in a community where that language is spoken. Unfortunately Government policy seems to be to continue to teach Irish as a dead language without any thought about where this is going.

Permabear

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Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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Listen I might deal with all these questions in another thread. To be honest the chances of either of us convincing the other is slim to none. However what did Irish do to make you so spitefull you'll keep posting in a thread that isn't dealing with that. The language must have raped your mother and sent you the video. I mean really I'm not forcing this on you one bit. You're here giving out to me for no reason.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Did anyone? And according to the wikipedia entry a mere 24% never speak Irish. However this is not the thread to discuss it in. So would you ever just leave it alone for fecks sakes

LordSutch

OK, Here's one for you Cliste, why is the Welsh Language doing so well?

I honestly don't know, i'm just asking the question "Whats their 'Magic' formula"?

dolliemix

Irish will not be a dead language as long as I'm alive!

Úsáidim an teanga gach lá.

If Irish had not been compulsory in school I probably would not be fluent in it now, which would be sad because I love it. I also did French in school and German in college. I haven't had the opportunity to use them since but I don't resent the fact that I had to learn them, and hope sometime to take them up in the future again.

In the meantime I've been learning Spanish.

I worked in Kolcatta in India a few years ago, and when teaching the children to count to ten, realised purely by accident, that Bengali has the same Sanskrit basis as Gaelic. Apart from the number five which is pancha (not sure the spelling is correct, but how it was pronounced, the rest of the numbers were extremely similar.

I studied Biology and Economics for the Leaving Cert but haven't needed them since. However, I'm glad that my mind was exposed to them.

Every subject can open your mind to new things if you allow it imo.

I know I'm biased, but in my life Irish has served me well. I'm amazed, actually, at the amount of people who do speak Irish and are happy to have national language that sets us apart from other countries.

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

OK, Here's one for you Cliste, why is the Welsh Language doing so well?

I honestly don't know, i'm just asking the question "Whats their 'Magic' formula"?

that could be a very productive question! And to be honest I'm not all that sure myself!

Here's an article I found about it. Ironically it attributes the efforts of the government with it's revival.

However this website is more what I thought happened. More that the concessions were hard earned. I remeber reading a quote from Michael Collins which was along the lines of 'A revival of the Irish language must come from the people, supported by the government, not be forced upon the people' (very much paraphrased).

The Welsh had a campaign of writing Welsh on signposts, effectively creating a bi-lingual state themselves. The opposite is in danger of happening here with places like an Daingean wanting to remain as Dingle

Soldie

Cliste wrote: »

The Welsh had a campaign of writing Welsh on signposts, effectively creating a bi-lingual state themselves. The opposite is in danger of happening here with places like an Daingean wanting to remain as Dingle

And why should they be forced to use a language that they don't want to use?

If the average Irish person had a genuine interest in Irish then they'd learn it themselves, but the reality is that few do, and even fewer use it on a regular basis. There's no justification for force-feeding it to us, even if it was the native tongue of our ancestors. The government is wasting our taxmoney by funding an impossible mission, and economics aside - having a vocal and nationalistic minority trying to force something upon the masses is a precedent to be wary of. Why not compulsory bodhrán and Irish dancing lessons while we're at it?

What a lot of people fail to realise is that cultures shift and change with the times, and striving towards something we had in the past does not make us any more or less Irish. We're still Irish, even if our former language is on its deathbed. Did people in the middle-ages preoccupy themselves with trying to restore pagan rituals in an effort to forge an identity?

That Irish has all but disappeared is sad, no doubt - but it has happened. English is the mother tongue here now, as much as it seems to pain a lot of people to admit it.

'A revival of the Irish language must come from the people, supported by the government, not be forced upon the people' (very much paraphrased)

Doesn't that support my point, rather than yours?

Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

And why should they be forced to use a language that they don't want to use?

If the average Irish person had a genuine interest in Irish then they'd learn it themselves, but the reality is that few do, and even fewer use it on a regular basis. There's no justification for force-feeding it to us, even if it was the native tongue of our ancestors. The government is wasting our taxmoney by funding an impossible mission, and economics aside - having a vocal and nationalistic minority trying to force something upon the masses is a precedent to be wary of. Why not compulsory bodhrán and Irish dancing lessons while we're at it?

What a lot of people fail to realise is that cultures shift and change with the times, and striving towards something we had in the past does not make us any more or less Irish. We're still Irish, even if our former language is on its deathbed. Did people in the middle-ages preoccupy themselves with trying to restore pagan rituals in an effort to forge an identity?

That Irish has all but disappeared is sad, no doubt - but it has happened. English is the mother tongue here now, as much as it seems to pain a lot of people to admit it.

Doesn't that support my point, rather than yours?

OK, for the last time the thread asks how, not WHY.

and I believe it supports both of our points. Yours for the wrong reasons. And to say that there is no effort on the side of the people is a complete insult to many

Soldie

Cliste wrote: »

OK, for the last time the thread asks how, not WHY.

Yes, and assuming the original poster is talking about making Ireland bi-lingual, I'm claiming that it's neither possible nor feasible - and even if it were, it'd be wrong to strive towards that, for reasons outlined above. I don't see how that is off-topic?

Permabear

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Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

Yes, and assuming the original poster is talking about making Ireland bi-lingual, I'm claiming that it's neither possible nor feasible - and even if it were, it'd be wrong to strive towards that, for reasons outlined above. I don't see how that is off-topic?

Well I feel that while questioning the feasibility of certain projects is productive and helpfull.

However I have to put up with the like of this from you, and your enthusiastic thanker:

Donegalfella wrote:

Are you serious? This is "practical"? Doesn't it makes much more sense for people to become fluent in modern European languages such as French and German, rather than in factionalized Celtic dialects that might only come in handy on the Outer Hebrides?

Soldie wrote: »

striving towards something we had in the past does not make us any more or less Irish.

The likes of this Oliver Cromwell himself would be proud of. How dare you yourselves force English on me. While I agree with you that many mis-guided attempts at helping the language has occurred why do you think that I should listen to you? I mean I am here talking with you, being reasonable in what is really your language, yet you insist on picking the fight.

Permabear

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Soldie

The likes of this Oliver Cromwell himself would be proud of.

This is precisely the mentality that must be shrugged. English is not a foreign language, it is our mother tongue, as evidenced by the fact that 100% of Irish people speak it fluently, compared to only 3% speaking Irish as their first language.

A lot of armchair republicans seem to think that accepting this is something of a betrayal of identity, but the reality is that English is the language of Ireland right now, and that much is indisputable.

And with respect, how exactly am I picking a fight? I'm merely defending my opinion, and I think the statistics are stacked highly in my favour.

anladmór

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not really. There isn't that many jobs in the EU atm. Germany the biggest power in EU has an unemployment rate of over 8%, mainly low skilled workers, the exact type of worker that in Ireland will face the brunt of the recession.

Now Germany will undergo major infrastructure work in time but Irish workers probably won't be able to compete. As the Polish showed here you don't really need to be able to speak the language to be work hard on a construction site.

Remember its mainly upper middle and upper class continential Europeans who are bi-lingual, and they are at an advantage that they have access to all the american and british culture that we have. In Ireland we don't have the same access German tv shows, radio, films, so its not fair to make a comparison like that.

(I have to back up the Irish language here, I think the opinions of donegal, soldie is extremely patronising to the language and not really answering the question)

Permabear

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dolliemix

donegalfella wrote: »

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Just because students are studying Irish in school it does not inhibit the learning of another European language.

All irish students must sit at least one foreign language in school as well as Irish!!!

There is nothing stopping them from putting their energy into learning the foreign language(s) and doing ordinary level Irish! Infact many students study two foreign languages and Irish on top of that.

Irish students are given the opportunity to learn other languages. It's just easier not to given that English can be used almost all over the world. The fact that Irish people 'wont ever know' continental languages, as you put it, has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish language. It's an easy way to blame being lazy about learning a language though I suppose:rolleyes: