Ireland's atheist majority?

Húrin

I am in my early 20s, in an institution of third level education in Dublin. Most of my peers are middle-class, and from all over Ireland and most appear to be atheists (and many so testify if asked). Not ardent, Dawkins-type atheists, but nonetheless they live without God. All religious groups are small minorities.

Now, this contradicts the cliche that Ireland is a mostly Catholic country. I expect that there are many people who have spiritual feelings and beliefs but unfortunately keep it privatised and stunted.

Do you think (not hope) that this is representative of the way Ireland is going soon?

Galvasean

I'm also in my early 20s and have noticed that most of my peers/age demograph are non-religious.
It seems to be the older generations that are more religious. For example, in my grandparents' generation near enough everybody is religious, goes to mass, prays etc. While my parents generation (late 40s early 50s) mostly tend to be 'religious' in that they believe in a God of some sort (although not necessarily most of the Bible) and go to mass on christmas day. They certainly wouldn't be as 'hard core' as the older generation.

I'm not sure if it's the shape of things to come mind. Whose to say most of us young aheists wont find God when we're closer to death's door? On the other hand you could argue that they by and large will remain atheists, due to having a much broader knowledge of the world. It goes without saying my generation wouldbe much more educated about science etc. than my gtrandparents' generation.
Which is right? I'll tell you in about 60 years.

philologos

It seems this way to me too, but I do also see quite a lot of people who are quite enthusiastic about Christianity in the same age group. I think it is a positive thing that Irish people seem to be taking what they believe more seriously and thinking about it before they make a choice though.

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

It seems this way to me too, but I do also see quite a lot of people who are quite enthusiastic about Christianity in the same age group. I think it is a positive thing that Irish people seem to be taking what they believe more seriously and thinking about it before they make a choice though.

I'd agree with that. It seems that many people are actually thinking about their faith, or lack thereof, and coming to their own conclusions.

The Mad Hatter

Welcome to college.

ChocolateSauce

In certain demographics, maybe. I'm in UCD doing chemistry, and I'd say between 60-80% of people taking science are atheists, about half of them also being anti-theists. However, in other faculties the rate is much lower, more in line with the national average I'd say. Of course, in college atheism will always be higher than in society, as there is a proven link between education level and atheism.

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

I am in my early 20s, in an institution of third level education in Dublin. Most of my peers are middle-class, and from all over Ireland and most appear to be atheists (and many so testify if asked). Not ardent, Dawkins-type atheists, but nonetheless they live without God. All religious groups are small minorities.

Now, this contradicts the cliche that Ireland is a mostly Catholic country. I expect that there are many people who have spiritual feelings and beliefs but unfortunately keep it privatised and stunted.

Do you think (not hope) that this is representative of the way Ireland is going soon?

It is a generational thing really. Most people I know who are "Catholic" are Catholic only when their mum is asking them do they go to mass.

So I think the figures of who is Catholic (ie who actually believes), particularly in my generation, are wildly wrong. People put down "Catholic" because they think that is what they are supposed to do, even if they don't have any supernatural belief at all. Cultural Catholics as people say.

I don't know about people having "spiritual feelings" that they keep quiet, when I was in college (5 years ago) the exact opposite was true, I knew non-believers who went to mass because a) others were or b) again the mammy would be on their back if they didn't.

Often in a group I would notice that one believer (genuine) would ask people are they going to mass and everyone else would say yes simply because that was the done thing. I even went along a few times, though I was trying to score one of the girls (yes, yes, straight to hell). It was more of a social/cultural thing

So I certainly had no experience with people hiding any beliefs, though possibly that was because being "openly atheist" was not the done thing.

In a group of people claiming all to be atheists it might be just as hard to say that actually you believe in Christianity. Who knows. I certainly hope that any of the atheists don't publicly ridicule anyone for having beliefs, but unfortunately it does happen.

lostexpectation

there a lot of old and very young people too.

philologos

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

In certain demographics, maybe. I'm in UCD doing chemistry, and I'd say between 60-80% of people taking science are atheists, about half of them also being anti-theists. However, in other faculties the rate is much lower, more in line with the national average I'd say. Of course, in college atheism will always be higher than in society, as there is a proven link between education level and atheism.

I disagree with you on the latter. Studies in the USA and Australia found that there was a higher percentage of university graduates than average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_behaviour_and_educational_attainment

I'd say the same is true of my congregation.

Zombrex

lostexpectation wrote: »

there a lot of old and very young people too.

yes but I don't want to sleep with any of them

er .. wait ... what were we discussing?

Húrin

Galvasean wrote: »

On the other hand you could argue that they by and large will remain atheists, due to having a much broader knowledge of the world. It goes without saying my generation wouldbe much more educated about science etc. than my gtrandparents' generation.
Which is right? I'll tell you in about 60 years.

Whether atheism or Catholicism or any religion is true or false need not be the concern of this thread. My opinion is that if I see the majority of one generation adopting a belief, then it has nothing to do with the truth or falsehood of the belief, and everything to do with social factors that determine it.

Wicknight wrote: »

In a group of people claiming all to be atheists it might be just as hard to say that actually you believe in Christianity.

It is. It takes a lot of confidence to say that you are a Christian. Most atheists don't think about their atheism as much as you do, and have this idea that Christianity has been disproven somehow. Others make assumptions based on stereotypes of either Catholics or right-wing American evangelicals. Fortunately few ridicule openly, but being quietly judged is just as bad.

Jakkass wrote: »

I disagree with you on the latter. Studies in the USA and Australia found that there was a higher percentage of university graduates than average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_behaviour_and_educational_attainment

I'd say the same is true of my congregation.

I don't think it really matters. Education is not value free, and educated people are not immune from social determinants on their beliefs. In many fields such as science, there is no training in critically assessing beliefs that are not determined by demonstrable facts.

mickeydevine

20 years ago families and friends would meet every weekend at mass. It was more of a community thing and kept people in touch. Now better transport links and mobile phones keeping in touch is a lot easier. We're all part of the golbal community now also. Every question we have can be answered with our own research and we can make up our own minds about the world and how we got here, not just the ideas we we're taught in school and growing up. Its about the evolution of the human mind/consiousness.

Húrin

mickeydevine wrote: »

20 years ago families and friends would meet every weekend at mass. It was more of a community thing and kept people in touch. Now better transport links and mobile phones keeping in touch is a lot easier. We're all part of the golbal community now also. Every question we have can be answered with our own research and we can make up our own minds about the world and how we got here, not just the ideas we we're taught in school and growing up. Its about the evolution of the human mind/consiousness.

Whether atheism or Catholicism or any religion is true or false need not be the concern of this thread. My opinion is that if I see the majority of one generation adopting a belief, then it has nothing to do with the truth or falsehood of the belief, and everything to do with social factors that determine it.

eoin5

One thing I saw that was very different in college was the taboo around religions. There are certain things that society unfortunately cant tolerate yet for one sticky reason or another but in general religions are fair game for a laugh in college.

I'm a big fan of the looser taboos, religions are funny business. Religious people shouldnt fear the laughter, and if they cant take some good natured humour its their problem. Its a bit like wherever youre from someone can make fun of you for it in good spirit (I'm from Clare, theres ammunition enough ). Lets hope it carries through the generation.

fitz0

Húrin wrote: »

I am in my early 20s, in an institution of third level education in Dublin. Most of my peers are middle-class, and from all over Ireland and most appear to be atheists (and many so testify if asked). Not ardent, Dawkins-type atheists, but nonetheless they live without God. All religious groups are small minorities.

Out of curiosity Húrin what course are you doing?

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

In many fields such as science, there is no training in critically assessing beliefs that are not determined by demonstrable facts.

that is critical assessment :rolleyes:

you just don't like that answer because it doesn't confirm what you want to be true.

mickeydevine

Húrin wrote: »

Whether atheism or Catholicism or any religion is true or false need not be the concern of this thread. My opinion is that if I see the majority of one generation adopting a belief, then it has nothing to do with the truth or falsehood of the belief, and everything to do with social factors that determine it.

It has everthing to do with the truth or falsehood of the belief.

sukikettle

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sukikettle

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sukikettle

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Dades

Suki, could at least one of your posts be on topic please.

Zombrex

sukikettle wrote: »

Wick God didn't give us faith to be definable by Science...he's a good bit more sophisticated than all that theory and pish

It must be wonderful to be able to both make stuff up and then at the same time not realise you are just making stuff up.

If I could do that I would spend my entire time believing I was going out with Scarlet Johansen.

Zamboni

Húrin wrote: »

Do you think (not hope) that this is representative of the way Ireland is going soon?

Yes. Bearing in mind that a lot of this generation call themselves christians but in reality are not practicing, it is highly unlikely that the next generation will even call themselves christians at all.
I like to think of religions on a product life cycle. Fortunately for the species, a number of them are on decline. It will be well past our lifetimes though, that the last shackles of superstition are removed.

Handsome Bob

I'm in UCD, and I've rarely come across someone that has God as an active part in their life. Whether that means they are self-proclaimed atheists I do not know.

sukikettle

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Zamboni

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I'm in UCD, and I've rarely come across someone that has God as an active part in their life. Whether that means they are self-proclaimed atheists I do not know.

The chapel there would make a great pub...
Actually better yet it might make a few more badly needed parking spaces!

philologos

Zamboni wrote: »

Yes. Bearing in mind that a lot of this generation call themselves christians but in reality are not practicing, it is highly unlikely that the next generation will even call themselves christians at all.
I like to think of religions on a product life cycle. Fortunately for the species, a number of them are on decline. It will be well past our lifetimes though, that the last shackles of superstition are removed.

Or will the children of atheists in the future seek for a higher purpose in life, and be introduced to the Bible outside the traditional sphere of how it's been done in the past?

Húrin

Zamboni wrote: »

Yes. Bearing in mind that a lot of this generation call themselves christians but in reality are not practicing, it is highly unlikely that the next generation will even call themselves christians at all.

I agree. I would say that even among my generation only those unbelievers of least self-reflective ability, and the actual believers themselves, would call themselves Catholics.

mickeydevine wrote: »

It has everthing to do with the truth or falsehood of the belief.

I don't think that this generation is any more gifted than any previous generation to discern truth.

Many of the problems we have are the same ones most societies did. We have some new problems and lack some of their problems. They did some things better than we do. For instance, modern civilisation has caused more social alienation than existed in medieval times. This doesn't mean medieval times were better. This shows however that not everything gets better with time, certainly not the human moral condition.

I think that one of the the worst aspects of our epoch is the colonisation of human consciousness by consumerism. Ed Bernays and his followers abused the research of Freud and other psychoanalysts in order to effectively create false needs, and sell false solutions for them.

The modern 'sophisticated' 21s century man's mind is stuffed with as much myths and superstitions as ever.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I'm in UCD, and I've rarely come across someone that has God as an active part in their life. Whether that means they are self-proclaimed atheists I do not know.

This is what I mean. Not many "evangelical atheists" but I would say there is an agnostic/atheist majority.

fitz0 wrote: »

Out of curiosity Húrin what course are you doing?

It are a seecret. :pac:

It's a BA course in a relatively small NUI college in Dublin city centre.

Handsome Bob

Zamboni wrote: »

The chapel there would make a great pub...
Actually better yet it might make a few more badly needed parking spaces!

Hmmmmmm.....I think I read in an article a while back that the Priest (s) do get plenty of "work" so to speak from people, either religious or non-religious, looking for guidance through personal grief or trauma. Like it or not, the Chapel serves a positive purpose I suppose. Especially given that waiting lists for seeing the University guidance counsellors are apparently quite high.

Zombrex

sukikettle wrote: »

You've never known Jesus Christ Wick...

Never known Scarlet Johansen either, that is was my point.

You don't know Jesus. Christians don't know Jesus. They just think they do because it makes them feel good.

And for some reason you have lost (or never had) the critical ability to determine that you only believe this because it is making you feel good. As I said if I could do the same I would convince myself I was dating Scarlet Johanson, and in fact we had sex a few hours ago. But unfortunately for me my great disadvantage is that I would know that this wasn't true.

Bliss is ignorance

sukikettle

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Zamboni

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Hmmmmmm.....I think I read in an article a while back that the Priest (s) do get plenty of "work" so to speak from people, either religious or non-religious, looking for guidance through personal grief or trauma. Like it or not, the Chapel serves a positive purpose I suppose. Especially given that waiting lists for seeing the University guidance counsellors are apparently quite high.

You don't need a priest to guide you through trauma. You need a counsellor.
The service takes place in the Arts block anyhow not in the chapel.
UCD needs parking spaces!

*stops going OT*

mickeydevine

Húrin wrote: »

Many of the problems we have are the same ones most societies did. We have some new problems and lack some of their problems. They did some things better than we do. For instance, modern civilisation has caused more social alienation than existed in medieval times. This doesn't mean medieval times were better. This shows however that not everything gets better with time, certainly not the human moral condition.

I think that one of the the worst aspects of our epoch is the colonisation of human consciousness by consumerism. Ed Bernays and his followers abused the research of Freud and other psychoanalysts in order to effectively create false needs, and sell false solutions for them.

The modern 'sophisticated' 21s century man's mind is stuffed with as much myths and superstitions as ever.

I agree 100%.

sukikettle

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sink

sukikettle wrote: »

Wick I do know Jesus...I have had supernatural occurences. Your comparison with Scarlett is ???????? When you lodge your money...you expect it to be there...when you sleep you HOPE to wake up and when you eat you expect it to satisfy.If that is your great expectation of the mundane how could you possibly know what I know. There is no comparison. You do not know what you are talking about and you have never asked God to make Himself real to you.

I laughed out loud when I read your last few posts. I know it's not polite laughing at other peoples mental delusions but I sometimes can't help myself. Have your contributions anything do to with the topic being discussed?

In regards to the original topic. I don't know anyone personally who is of my own generation and is a practising Christian. Most of my friends are just not interested and don't think about it.

Húrin

sukikettle wrote: »

You've never known Jesus Christ Wick...so how you can argue against something 'made up' is a bit contradictory and hypocritical.If you were so sure you wouldn't spare sites like these a single thought. So what are you fighting against me does wonder. Whereas I have my hand up against your forehead looking at you running very fast towards me and not making any ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apologetics fail.

Jakkass wrote: »

Or will the children of atheists in the future seek for a higher purpose in life, and be introduced to the Bible outside the traditional sphere of how it's been done in the past?

I would advise both of you not to seek simple grand narratives that predict the future. History is a messy, surprising and ironic process.

However, history does indeed suggest that religion undergoes declines and revivals, rather than the sort of very gradual decline over centuries that Zamboni seems to imagine.

Wicknight wrote: »

Never known Scarlet Johansen either, that is was my point.

You don't know Jesus. Christians don't know Jesus. They just think they do because it makes them feel good.

Careful, that's the kind of line that sends a thread flying right off-topic.

maldana

Húrin wrote: »

I am in my early 20s, in an institution of third level education in Dublin. Most of my peers are middle-class, and from all over Ireland and most appear to be atheists (and many so testify if asked). Not ardent, Dawkins-type atheists, but nonetheless they live without God. All religious groups are small minorities.

Now, this contradicts the cliche that Ireland is a mostly Catholic country. I expect that there are many people who have spiritual feelings and beliefs but unfortunately keep it privatised and stunted.

Do you think (not hope) that this is representative of the way Ireland is going soon?

I have to say I am in the same boat. Most of my (mid to late 20s) peers seem to live without religion or God in their lives. I would consider my self a spiritual person and a believer in God, I wouldn't say I'm staunchly Catholic or consistently practise its rituals but I would privately pray to God or light a candle in Church and go to mass the odd time. A lot of the time I seem to come up against people who are either agnostic or atheist or who have no opinion on the subject either way and to be honest the latter part is scarier.

At least if someone is agnostic or atheist they have thought about religion, faith and beliefs and contemplated human existence, why we are here and for what reason etc. But a few people I know seem to have no opinion or even care on the issue whatsoever, it is not a factor in their lives and religion means nothing to them whatsoever. Whether they are secretly spiriual or not is another story but why would people be secretive about this, is it something to be ashamed of or belittled about nowadays? Personally I would consider religion an important part of someone's life and they should at least question it or form an opinion on it. If they don't believe or have their own reasons for having no faith that's fair enough, at least they have thought about it.

From experience it seems to be way Ireland is going. There is a lot of young people who have faith etc but the majority who retain the principles of the Catholic religion are older people. I don't think in order to be religious or spiritual you have to practise according to a particular organised religion but if its actual practising Catholicism that is stated to be dying out then I would have to agree.

Dades

Suki, last chance to contribute something other than your usual fare to this forum...

Handsome Bob

Zamboni wrote: »

You don't need a priest to guide you through trauma. You need a counsellor.
The service takes place in the Arts block anyhow not in the chapel.
UCD needs parking spaces!

*stops going OT*

It does? So what is the Chapel actually used for?

As I said, I've read that the waiting lists are very high for seeing the counsellors in UCD. I think the appeal is that its' free and that going to the Uni counsellors is perhaps a better way of keeping anonymity in terms of not wanting the family to know. Also, I've noticed through bereavments that Priests are much more "aware" of how to approach a young person going trough turmoil. Specifically, if the young person doesn't want to hear it, they lay off the religious advice and just play the role of a counsellor without the qualifications.

sukikettle

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Zamboni

sukikettle wrote: »

Sink I expect to find you parked beside Zamboni staring up at the arts block...you guys will face tough choices and you guys will ask yourselves hard questions and you will be totally alone at that point and then what will you do...stumble on? Dades kick me...you're good at kicking the guy presenting an argument. In fact kick me for Jesus...make my day!

Drugs. That's all I can say.

fitz0

sukikettle wrote: »

Zamboni when life has you by your nuts we know we'll find you parked contemplating your situation maybe staring up at the arts block

It is a rather nice building isnt it? A perfect setting for our inner architect to contemplate life, the universe and everything.
EDIT: Damn Im thinking of the trinity one. Dont have a clue what the UCD one looks like. To Google!

sink

sukikettle wrote: »

Sink I expect to find you parked beside Zamboni staring up at the arts block...you guys will face tough choices and you guys will ask yourselves hard questions and you will be totally alone at that point and then what will you do...stumble on? Dades kick me...you're good at kicking the guy presenting an argument. In fact kick me for Jesus...make my day!

I won't be alone, I have friends and family who support me. They are real I can call them up on my phone or drive over to their houses and have a bi-directional conversation with them. They can also help me out physically as well as mentally by giving me a helping hand. True happiness comes from social bonds we build with our friends and family.

sukikettle

sink they won't heal you or divert the disaster from your life they won't open up doors or put the right people and job etc in your path family and friends pick up the pieces

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

that is critical assessment :rolleyes:

you just don't like that answer because it doesn't confirm what you want to be true.

It's one type of critical assessment. Some people don't know that there are others.

I reject the claim that theism has been disproven, and also the claim that every atheist has subjected their beliefs to the rigour of critical assessment.

mickeydevine wrote: »

Every question we have can be answered with our own research and we can make up our own minds about the world and how we got here, not just the ideas we we're taught in school and growing up. Its about the evolution of the human mind/consiousness.

mickeydevine wrote: »

I agree 100%.

Consistency fail.

fitz0

Thats a pretty bleak outlook you have on life there sukikettle. The way you put it friends and family are almost meaningless. I would really hate to have such a view and I almost pity it.

sink

sukikettle wrote: »

sink they won't heal you or divert the disaster from your life they won't open up doors or put the right people and job etc in your path family and friends pick up the pieces

It depends in what context you mean by healing and diverting disaster. And my current job I got with the help of a family member, so you are obviously wrong on that point. Regardless I am not deluded enough to think that an imaginary sky being is going to.

Húrin

maldana wrote: »

At least if someone is agnostic or atheist they have thought about religion, faith and beliefs and contemplated human existence, why we are here and for what reason etc. But a few people I know seem to have no opinion or even care on the issue whatsoever, it is not a factor in their lives and religion means nothing to them whatsoever. Whether they are secretly spiriual or not is another story but why would people be secretive about this, is it something to be ashamed of or belittled about nowadays? Personally I would consider religion an important part of someone's life and they should at least question it or form an opinion on it. If they don't believe or have their own reasons for having no faith that's fair enough, at least they have thought about it.

From experience it seems to be way Ireland is going. There is a lot of young people who have faith etc but the majority who retain the principles of the Catholic religion are older people. I don't think in order to be religious or spiritual you have to practise according to a particular organised religion but if its actual practising Catholicism that is stated to be dying out then I would have to agree.

I agree. I find the lack of thought worrying, and it convinces me that this generation is no different to the previous generations who didn't think much about what they were told.

I think that people feel it is something that they have to keep private. Irish people are so tight when it comes to discussing religion. I rarely have a discussion about faith with a non-Christian without them becoming stern, glum and awkward.

I wasn't thinking about Catholicism in particular, but rather religious groups in general.

sink wrote: »

I won't be alone, I have friends and family who support me. They are real I can call them up on my phone or drive over to their houses and have a bi-directional conversation with them. They can also help me out physically as well as mentally by giving me a helping hand. True happiness comes from social bonds we build with our friends and family.

Indeed, community is extremely important in the Christian life. More so than in our culture's dominant capitalist ideology.

sink

Húrin wrote: »

Indeed, community is extremely important in the Christian life. More so than in our culture's dominant capitalist ideology.

That is the one thing that I do respect about religion. Whatever it's other ills it did and still does provide a vital service bringing communities together. If only it could do so without the superstition.

deadhead13

We are still very much in the minority, most recent poll I remember had believers at around 90% in Ireland. Surprised me, but there you go.

Handsome Bob

maldana wrote: »

I have to say I am in the same boat. Most of my (mid to late 20s) peers seem to live without religion or God in their lives. I would consider my self a spiritual person and a believer in God, I wouldn't say I'm staunchly Catholic or consistently practise its rituals but I would privately pray to God or light a candle in Church and go to mass the odd time. A lot of the time I seem to come up against people who are either agnostic or atheist or who have no opinion on the subject either way and to be honest the latter part is scarier.

At least if someone is agnostic or atheist they have thought about religion, faith and beliefs and contemplated human existence, why we are here and for what reason etc. But a few people I know seem to have no opinion or even care on the issue whatsoever, it is not a factor in their lives and religion means nothing to them whatsoever. Whether they are secretly spiriual or not is another story but why would people be secretive about this, is it something to be ashamed of or belittled about nowadays? Personally I would consider religion an important part of someone's life and they should at least question it or form an opinion on it. If they don't believe or have their own reasons for having no faith that's fair enough, at least they have thought about it.

From experience it seems to be way Ireland is going. There is a lot of young people who have faith etc but the majority who retain the principles of the Catholic religion are older people. I don't think in order to be religious or spiritual you have to practise according to a particular organised religion but if its actual practising Catholicism that is stated to be dying out then I would have to agree.

I think that is the central issue in regards to this thread, as well as age being another central issue. Among my age group, I think you'll find among a lot of people that religion is something that isn't relevant to them or even something they see as "uncool". Personally when I was a Catholic I was made feel ashamed by some people that I knew. Simply put young people that actively practice their religion can find themselves alienated or made feel stupid. It's sad to see.