Karl Marx. Was he right or will he be?

Daithi McGee

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/oct/21/creditcrunch-globaleconomy

Doing a bit of light reading earlier to pass the time and while trying to figure out my needs as highlighted by User:Saibh, I went a wandering on the current economic issues.

Are we about to see a rise in a new and better socialism? Just looking at the news I see British people looking for jobs for British people. They are probably being egged on by the BNP but is that not what will happen here?

Is Karl Marx right in his thinking? Will we all just help a nigga out one day? Or will we just stamp over one another to make a buck?

Comrades?

o/

José Alaninho

I fookin hope so.

ejmaztec

He wasn't as funny as Harpo.

Daithi McGee

José Alaninho wrote: »

I fookin hope so.

Like your sig dude! Me and my brother discussed this earlier and all we have is a .22

Will it get that bad? I dunno but it will beat shooting oranges at 200 meters.

phenomenon

Surely the BNP's far-right political ideology is antagonistic to socialism?

galwayrush

The foreman's job is mine at last,
you can shove the Red Flag up your arse.

Communisim is Capatalism for the few.;)

José Alaninho

Well considering my M16 is an airsoft I'd say you have the advantage over me comrade :P

tony1kenobi

Daithi McGee wrote: »

Is Karl Marx right in his thinking? Will we all just help a nigga out one day? Or will we just stamp over one another to make a buck?

Comrades?

o/

No.....he is dead.

ejmaztec

tony1kenobi wrote: »

No.....he is dead.

along with millions of others as a result of some people taking a liking to Das Kapital.

Mahatma coat

I dont think we'll see the extremes of Marxism again, much Like I doubt we'll see the extremes of National Socialism again either.

but the latter is more likely to make a comeback than Marxixm

nyarlothothep

Communism has never been put into practice, not in the former USSR anyway. Agree on the national socialism point, there is a certain subsection of people who will gravitate to tribalist solutions and the persecution of non nationals. It's pretty stupid but thats the way it can go.

Ostrom

It was never a question or right or wrong

'we show them how, not why'.... Grundrisse....

K-9

Like all good ideas, it's ruined by human nature, always will be.

Red Hand

K-9 wrote: »

Like all good ideas, it's ruined by human nature, always will be.

Nail on the head.

If we were ever to see any of his ideas, then humanity would have to be greatly altered to achieve equality.

Doesn't matter anyway, mankind will have commited hari-kari well before then.

Biggins

He won't let be right - to be honest.
Others in power will see to that!

SoWatchaWant

"How capitalism will destroy itself."

I thought Communism had more of an end than capitalism ever did.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr Marx.

Spore

The kind of Post Indusrialist society we're living in now is so far removed from where Marx came from as to be ridiculous to compare, his theories were incredibly insightful back then but the failure of the Frankfurt School and all the modern Cultural Theorists since, proves that Capitalism is far too complex and shape shifting to nail down and simply throw out with the bathwater.

Having known so many people who lived through the horrors of communism I can safely say that our current impasse is nothing compared to the sustained moronism of communism.

Ostrom

Spore wrote: »

The kind of Post Indusrialist society we're living in now is so far removed from where Marx came from as to be ridiculous to compare, his theories were incredibly insightful back then but the failure of the Frankfurt School and all the modern Cultural Theorists since, proves that Capitalism is far too complex and shape shifting to nail down and simply throw out with the bathwater.

Having known so many people who lived through the horrors of communism I can safely say that our current impasse is nothing compared to the sustained moronism of communism.

The form of communism you're referring to had nothing to do with Marx's writings. He never wrote about what a communist or socialist state would looks like.

Spore

efla wrote: »

The form of communism you're referring to had nothing to do with Marx's writings. He never wrote about what a communist or socialist state would looks like.

Yeah that's why I lead with this: "The kind of Post Indusrialist society we're living in now is so far removed from where Marx came from as to be ridiculous to compare"

Jeez!

Acacia

More likely that there would be some sort of rise in fascism or another far-right movement. Already evidenced by those BNP muppets getting increased support.

After all, people love to point fingers at scapegoats and huddle together like sheep in difficult times.

K-9

Acacia wrote: »

More likely that there would be some sort of rise in fascism or another far-right movement. Already evidenced by those BNP muppets getting increased support.

After all, people love to point fingers at scapegoats and huddle together like sheep in difficult times.

And often the most vulnerable get scapegoated.

Acacia

K-9 wrote: »

And often the most vulnerable get scapegoated.

Unfortunately very true. Usually the immigints...even when it was the bears, I knew it was the immigints!:pac:

But really, I foresee parties like the BNP getting more popular and it's quite worrying. The last thing we need is racist skinhead thugs throwing their weight around, tbh.

Ostrom

Spore wrote: »

Yeah that's why I lead with this: "The kind of Post Indusrialist society we're living in now is so far removed from where Marx came from as to be ridiculous to compare"

Jeez!

Sorry, quoted the wrong post!

K-9

Acacia wrote: »

Unfortunately very true. Usually the immigints...even when it was the bears, I knew it was the immigints!:pac:

But really, I foresee parties like the BNP getting more popular and it's quite worrying. The last thing we need is racist skinhead thugs throwing their weight around, tbh.

It's funny there is no INP here, who caters for that element of society?

Acacia

K-9 wrote: »

It's funny there is no INP here, who caters for that element of society?

There is the ICP (the Immigration Control Platform). Though I don't think they're quite on the same level as the BNP.

K-9

Acacia wrote: »

There is the ICP (the Immigration Control Platform). Though I don't think they're quite on the same level as the BNP.

Maybe certain parties cater for that? Apologies for a leading question!

Acacia

K-9 wrote: »

Maybe certain parties cater for that? Apologies for a leading question!

I've been duped! :pac:

Really, I guess some people will always be strongly anti-immigration. It just seems like scape-goating to me, especially in economic times like these.

Ostrom

Acacia wrote: »

I've been duped! :pac:

Really, I guess some people will always be strongly anti-immigration. It just seems like scape-goating to me, especially in economic times like these.

All part of false consciousness :rolleyes:

Acacia

efla wrote: »

All part of false consciousness :rolleyes:

Exactly!

I had to look this up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

That's pretty much what I've thought myself, though. Parties like the BNP thrive because the workers don't realize it's the employers screwing them over, not immigrants...that's what you mean, right?

anonymous_joe

Communism only ever really worked in small monasteries in the medieval era.

Increased socialism is a distinct possibilty in the current climate, but in the long term, applied communism ends up diminishining the rewards available to people in life, in essence eradicating a meritocracy. Things begin to stagnate.

Ostrom

Acacia wrote: »

Exactly!

I had to look this up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

That's pretty much what I've thought myself, though. Parties like the BNP thrive because the workers don't realize it's the employers screwing them over, not immigrants...that's what you mean, right?

Exactly - similar in concept to commodity fetishism - the form of the object betraying the labour process producing it

DadaKopf

Acacia wrote: »

Exactly!

I had to look this up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

That's pretty much what I've thought myself, though. Parties like the BNP thrive because the workers don't realize it's the employers screwing them over, not immigrants...that's what you mean, right?

And the Left is supposed to be internationalist, not nationalist. The belief being that splitting peoples apart through nationalism destroys solidarity among everyone who works against those who exploit. It always annoys me when you see groups pushing for nationalist and socialist agendas.

The kind of Post Indusrialist society we're living in now is so far removed from where Marx came from as to be ridiculous to compare, his theories were incredibly insightful back then but the failure of the Frankfurt School and all the modern Cultural Theorists since, proves that Capitalism is far too complex and shape shifting to nail down and simply throw out with the bathwater.

I don't get why people opposed to left wing ideologies hold them to outmoded theories as an example of how they've been 'disproven' while they push their liberal/right-wing ideologies do a different standard - when the theories don't match reality, they just change them to fit their agenda.

Like all other ideas, when theories don't match 'reality', they change, this goes for 'Marxism' and 'Capitalism'. At least Marxism doesn't pretend it's an objective science; it actually works into its theories the reality that ideas are socially constructed. In fact, we can't even access human nature because it changes with history. But mongos who don't think about this.

A lot of Marx's ideas have huge relevance today. And not just him, umpteen influential theorists and researchers over the years. Where the ideas do have explanatory power, they should be listened to.

K-9

But it's interesting that the party that prides itself on Marxist or socialist Republic policies tends to attract the anti immigration vote.

Nationalism should not mix with Marxism.

Dadakpkf, we posted at same time!

anonymous_joe

DadaKopf wrote: »

And the Left is supposed to be internationalist, not nationalist. The belief being that splitting peoples apart through nationalism destroys solidarity among everyone who works against those who exploit. It always annoys me when you see groups pushing for nationalist and socialist agendas.


I don't get why people opposed to left wing ideologies hold them to outmoded theories as an example of how they've been 'disproven' while they push their liberal/right-wing ideologies do a different standard - when the theories don't match reality, they just change them to fit their agenda.

Like all other ideas, when theories don't match 'reality', they change, this goes for 'Marxism' and 'Capitalism'. At least Marxism doesn't pretend it's an objective science; it actually works into its theories the reality that ideas are socially constructed. In fact, we can't even access human nature because it changes with history. But mongos who don't think about this.

A lot of Marx's ideas have huge relevance today. And not just him, umpteen influential theorists and researchers over the years. Where the ideas do have explanatory power, they should be listened to.

Modern society disproved Marxism because he believed that a class of capitalists would become more and more wealthy, and smaller, and would make the massed ranks of the proletariat poorer and poorer.

That never happened. Quite the opposite. Standards of living etc have increased beyond comprehension from the time when Marx developed his theories.

K-9

DadaKopf wrote: »

I don't get why people opposed to left wing ideologies hold them to outmoded theories as an example of how they've been 'disproven' while they push their liberal/right-wing ideologies do a different standard - when the theories don't match reality, they just change them to fit their agenda.

Like all other ideas, when theories don't match 'reality', they change, this goes for 'Marxism' and 'Capitalism'. At least Marxism doesn't pretend it's an objective science; it actually works into its theories the reality that ideas are socially constructed. In fact, we can't even access human nature because it changes with history. But mongos who don't think about this.

A lot of Marx's ideas have huge relevance today. And not just him, umpteen influential theorists and researchers over the years. Where the ideas do have explanatory power, they should be listened to.

Indeed, the right wing, free market agenda has just been proven to be wrong.

anonymous_joe

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, the right wing, free market agenda has just been proven to be wrong.

Has it?

Ostrom

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Modern society disproved Marxism because he believed that a class of capitalists would become more and more wealthy, and smaller, and would make the massed ranks of the proletariat poorer and poorer.

That never happened. Quite the opposite. Standards of living etc have increased beyond comprehension from the time when Marx developed his theories.

Not at all, and again you are situating that conclusion within a very limited, and much earlier strand of Marx's writings

Capital is the crux of Marx's work, as mentioned above it is not meant to be taken as an objective reading of a specific state, it is a conceptual apparatus for understanding social change

anonymous_joe

efla wrote: »

Not at all, and again you are situating that conclusion within a very limited, and much earlier strand of Marx's writings

Capital is the crux of Marx's work, as mentioned above it is not meant to be taken as an objective reading of a specific state, it is a conceptual apparatus for understanding social change

Tbh it's been years since I read Das Kapital.

Anyway, it's been what, 150 years?

The other problem I find with communism is that it does not go hand in hand with democracy. You can't make people communist voluntarily, too many people would lose too much. That requires unpleasantness. Theoretically, communism's great, though flawed (what isn;t?) but it's been put in practice, and it was a lot nastier than free market capitalism.

Ostrom

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Tbh it's been years since I read Das Kapital.

Anyway, it's been what, 150 years?

The other problem I find with communism is that it does not go hand in hand with democracy. You can't make people communist voluntarily, too many people would lose too much. That requires unpleasantness. Theoretically, communism's great, though flawed (what isn;t?) but it's been put in practice, and it was a lot nastier than free market capitalism.

Many would argue that wasn't real communism - I certainly would

Socialism doesn't have to involve great losses of any sort

K-9

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Has it?

With non regulation, yes.

If you want further info, look at the US Health system.

Capitalism on its own can't work.

anonymous_joe

efla wrote: »

Many would argue that wasn't real communism - I certainly would

Socialism doesn't have to involve great losses of any sort

Hmmm. What was it? Or more accurately, what is?

Socialism and communism are very different beasts.

K-9 wrote: »

With non regulation, yes.

If you want further info, look at the US Health system.

Capitalism on its own can't work.

But there's no such thing as capitalism on its own. In the same way, communism on its own failed, but black market capitalism kept it going.

K-9

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Hmmm. What was it? Or more accurately, what is?

Socialism and communism are very different beasts.


But there's no such thing as capitalism on its own. In the same way, communism on its own failed, but black market capitalism kept it going.

Grand, can you answer my question previously and elaborate on the US Health system?

the_syco

Marxism will work for the people, once the leaders use capitalism to trade with their neighbours, who'll use the products made by the Marxist country. Think how everyone bought stuff off China.

synd

I think Marx is hugely relevant.

Class antagonism in my opinion is brought about by the relative distribution in socially created wealth and power. You always get right wing types arguing that an absolute rise in productive capacity has resulted in capitalisms ''invincibility'' as a system. Of course it only takes a second to understand how ridiculous there position is, every form of social organization usually results in increased production. Feudalism was once the (economic high point of civilization), however people still rebelled against the perceived injustice that it was based upon in favor of a more democratic mode of arrangement. Socialism in all its forms is at its heart is abut equality in self determination brought about through direct democratic control of the institutions that effect our lives.

I mean capitalism wont exist forever unless you think that history has just stopped. Right wing economists and such are essentially to capitalism what the the catholic church was to aristocracy - the idealogical vanguard.

synd

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Tbh it's been years since I read Das Kapital.

Anyway, it's been what, 150 years?

The other problem I find with communism is that it does not go hand in hand with democracy. You can't make people communist voluntarily, too many people would lose too much. That requires unpleasantness. Theoretically, communism's great, though flawed (what isn;t?) but it's been put in practice, and it was a lot nastier than free market capitalism.

Joe - Communism is democracy, Marx in his early work however believed communism could only be brought about via a centralized command economy and workers dictatorship. In Marx's later years he abandoned this position and took a more libertarian approach this created a split within Marxism - left Marxism such as Luxumburgism is more Anarchistc and focuses on participatory democracy ect. Unfortunately most socialist organizations around today are Bolshevik.

Anarchism is also communism - radical democracy, to the extent whereby it perceives representative democracy as a form of oligarchy.

Im not sure what you mean by capitalism ? - If you simply mean a market where people freely exchange goods then this would exist under communism - only the means of production would remain public so as to facilitate equality in self determination.

humberklog

Karl Marx as opposed to Marxism was right. He hardly worked a day in his LIFE! Bit of a train job apprentice, pissed it up against the wall after getting wedged drunk with Engels on the Tottenham Court Rd. Then heading off drunkingly home but not before smashing out gas lamps with stones. Not to keep people in employment but for the sheer fecking hell of it. Was Karl Marx right? Damn right...take your sorry bones to a far flung country that you resent, vandalise it, create a revolution from the bed, get LOCKED with your mates, grow a beard and FECK the begrudgers.
Marxism? Me Tights!

Valmont

The marxists are always going to be in their own little world and I'm just glad I won't live to see another resurgence in these ideals. I'll be happy reading Atlas Shrugged, thank you very much.

dsmythy

José Alaninho wrote: »

I fookin hope so.

I bloody hope not. Down with Marxism and what not!

Anyways all this talk of the end of capitalism is sensationalist crap. There's been recessions before and there will be again. They come and they go and so far we aren't all living in some supposed socialist paradise as a result of previous downturns and most of those who tried failed miserably.

IvySlayer

He wasn't right.

He was leftist

Valmont

K-9 wrote: »

Like all good ideas, it's ruined by human nature, always will be.

The very fact that Marxism fails to take human nature into account suggests that it's a terrible idea. Especially considering it's supposed to provide an answer to all the horrific injustices of capitalism. If human nature itself thwarted Marxism maybe you could pitch it to the aliens when they arrive? Marxism is impractical, implausible, and above all else, immoral.

galwayrush

tony1kenobi wrote: »

No.....he is dead.

Does thast mean that the grave of Karl Marx is just another communist plot?:rolleyes: