5x5 vs 3x5

BossArky

I mentioned this on my log but it will probably get more traffic here.. so here goes.

My squat and deadlift take up 95% of my workout. One day I deadlift (tuesday), another I squat (thursday)

The sets themselves take about a minute, but the recovery takes ~5 minutes. This means I spent a lot of time doing nothing and I feel I'm loosing out on valuable time which could be spent doing pull ups, rows, pressing, etc.

I'm going to continue with this approach for the time being and see how high I can go with both.

My question is this: What type of gains do you reckon I would be loosing on squat and deadlift if I switch instead to 3x5 (instead of 5x5), and use the additional free time to include extra exercises such as military press, bench, pull ups, etc?

Note I have a third day where I try to include pull ups, pressing, calves, abs, biceps, shoulders, etc... but it seems to be getting too unstructured as I try to cram everything in. This is why I'm thinking that at some stage in the future months I'll have to cut back on the squat and deadlift sets.

Times are fixed as follows and cannot change for the moment.

Tuesday - 35 mins - Deadlift
Thursday - 35 mins - Squat
Saturday - 90 mins - Everything else

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Have you thought about doing 3x5 heavy lifts and 2x5 for reps?
Try to improve your recovery time between sets?
Not sure how that would fit in with the 5x5 workout but it's something I was thinking of...

kevpants

Strength loves rest.

The rest between the squats and deads is important so don't fret about it.

I think cutting back on the squats and deads to get the rest in would be cutting of your nose to spite your face. I'm not a big fan of "the other stuff" so I'd probably drop that to get more squats and deads in

I'm on a 3 sessions a week setup at the moment as time is tight for me too.

I'm doing wendlers 5/3/1, I've an explanatory post in my log. Another highly recommended 3 day program is Stephen Korte's 3x3 (top right of the page).

Or if you really wanna research it Jim Wendler has brought out a book on training 3 days a week, it's available as an e-book here and is meant to be very thorough no matter what your goal, it's not just about powerlifting it covers all the bases apparently.

Reyman

5 minutes is a pretty long rest time that would only be used for a brief pure strength programme eg. multiple sets of 3 reps with near max poundages.
Why not reduce your rest to 2-3 minutes - you'll find this hard at first but You'll adapt pretty quickly.

To answer your question - replacing a 5x5 with a 3x5 - you need to be doing a total of 20-30 reps to get the required stimulation from a session. 15 reps is not enough.

If you do want to continue with 5 min rest periods why not do a few lighter bench presses or rows or similar during the rest period. As long as you're not tiring the muscles you're focusing on you will make better overall progress. Otherwise you're going to take 30 mins to do a 5x5 with only one exercise to show from it

sonny crocket

Or you could just train once every 4 days. Heavy deadlifts and squats are very taxing on the CNS. I commend you on focusing on these exercises.

My recommendation would be this split for you.

Day 1

Dips or Bench
Military Press
Squat

Day 2

Pullups (weighted)
Row
Deadlift


check out www.ironaddicts.com for more good splits.

DM-BM

Reyman wrote: »

5 minutes is a pretty long rest time that would only be used for a brief pure strength programme eg. multiple sets of 3 reps with near max poundages.
Why not reduce your rest to 2-3 minutes - you'll find this hard at first but You'll adapt pretty quickly.

To answer your question - replacing a 5x5 with a 3x5 - you need to be doing a total of 20-30 reps to get the required stimulation from a session. 15 reps is not enough.

If you do want to continue with 5 min rest periods why not do a few lighter bench presses or rows or similar during the rest period. As long as you're not tiring the muscles you're focusing on you will make better overall progress. Otherwise you're going to take 30 mins to do a 5x5 with only one exercise to show from it

You should email that nugget of information to Mark Rippetoe, he actually has a programme based on 3x5, I'm sure he'd love to hear that 15 reps isn't enough, he may even credit you in Starting Strength 3rd edition.

BossArky

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote: »

Have you thought about doing 3x5 heavy lifts and 2x5 for reps?
Try to improve your recovery time between sets?

If I cut the recovery time down I wouldn't be able to lift the next set. I need this time to recover as my head is spinning and heart thumpity thumping. This is when you will find me sprawled across an empty bench gulping down air.

I have thought about cutting back from 5x5 to 3x5 and maybe 2x10 .... but that will probably take the same amount of time.... and may not give the stimulus for increased strength which the 5x5 does.

kevpants wrote: »

I think cutting back on the squats and deads to get the rest in would be cutting of your nose to spite your face. I'm not a big fan of "the other stuff" so I'd probably drop that to get more squats and deads in

Totally agree. I want to push myself on the deadlift and squat for a few months to see how things pan out.

kevpants wrote: »

wendlers 5/3/1

Stephen Korte's 3x3

Cheers - I'll read up on those.

BossArky

sonny crocket wrote: »

Or you could just train once every 4 days.

My recommendation would be this split for you.

Day 1

Dips or Bench
Military Press
Squat

Day 2

Pullups (weighted)
Row
Deadlift


check out www.ironaddicts.com for more good splits.

The problem with the 2 day split above is that I don't think I would fit either of those workouts into my 35 minutes. I will give it a bash at some stage though, thanks.

Reyman wrote: »

Why not reduce your rest to 2-3 minutes - you'll find this hard at first but You'll adapt pretty quickly.

Hmmm, I'll try once I reach the ceiling on the 5x5s. If I reduce the recovery time now I'll probably just fail too early and not get all 25 reps in.

Reyman wrote: »

If you do want to continue with 5 min rest periods why not do a few lighter bench presses or rows or similar during the rest period. As long as you're not tiring the muscles you're focusing on you will make better overall progress.

Tried this a number of times and the main 5x5 is adversely affected. This is probably as I'm getting near my 5x5 max.

Reyman wrote: »

Otherwise you're going to take 30 mins to do a 5x5 with only one exercise to show from it

Yep - thats my problem!

I guess I need to stop worrying about it and just grind the sets out no matter how long the 5x5 takes.

Thanks for the input all.

Hanley

Reyman wrote: »

5 minutes is a pretty long rest time that would only be used for a brief pure strength programme eg. multiple sets of 3 reps with near max poundages.- you need to be doing a total of 20-30 reps to get the required stimulation from a session. 15 reps is not enough.

15's not enough...?? Bugger. That last 3 months of training where my squat and deadlift for 5 reps are both up about 20-30kg each is wasted time so!!

If you do want to continue with 5 min rest periods why not do a few lighter bench presses or rows or similar during the rest period. As long as you're not tiring the muscles you're focusing on you will make better overall progress. Otherwise you're going to take 30 mins to do a 5x5 with only one exercise to show from it

What's the point in doing light sets that won't fatigue you during REST periods???