2009 Roads Allocation

serfboard

From the NRA Press Release

Transport Minister Mr. Noel Dempsey, T.D. and NRA CEO, Mr. Fred Barry today (28/01/08) announced details of the Government’s €1.44 billion investment in National Roads Programme 2009. This investment demonstrates Government’s continued commitment to upgrade the States national road infrastructure. It is being made under the Transport 21 Programme and the National Development Plan (NDP). The overall allocation represents an average investment of €120 million per month in Ireland’s national roads.

• A total of €1.44 billion of funding for the National Roads Programme under Transport 21/NDP will be allocated in 2009. This funding will finance 315 projects throughout the country.

• All remaining connecting sections of the Major Inter Urban (MIUs) motorways are now under construction. The NRA is on track to complete the four remaining MIUs by 2010.

• As of January 1, 2009 approximately 478 km of new roads are under construction.

• N21 Castleisland Bypass will start construction in 2009

• 156 km of new roads will be completed in 2009. The projects are; N4 Leixlip to M50 Junction; N6 Athlone to Ballinasloe; N7 Nenagh to Limerick; N8 Fermoy to Mitchelstown; N9 Waterford to Knocktopher; N9 Kilcullen to Carlow, N51 Navan Inner Relief Road and the N25 Waterford City By Pass

• Seven projects are moving forward into the Compulsory Purchase Order stage in 2009 .These projects are (N11) Gorey to Enniscorthy (incl Enniscorthy Bypass); (N20) Cork to Limerick Northern Section; (N20) Cork to Limerick Southern Section; (N22) Ballyvourney to Macroom; (N22) Cork Northern Ring Road; (N25) Carrigtwohill to Midleton and (N56) Mountcharles to Inver.

• In 2009 work will continue on 17 major road projects at a total cost of almost €5 billion.

Among the road projects delivered in 2008 are:

• Phase 1 and 3 of the M50 (between the Ballymount and Blanchardstown Junctions)

• Barrier-free electronic tolling which saw the removal of the West-link toll plaza (shaving 30 minutes off journey times for southbound motorists at peak hour)

Speaking today about the €1.44 billion investment for national roads, Minister Dempsey, said:

Ye can read the rest yerselves!

Tech3

I suspected myself that the castleisland bypass would be given the go ahead at some satge but not this year. The tenders were out for this project for a while now, have to say im delighted. It really is a badly congested town and needs to be bypassed. They probably looked at adare but with that project too expensive (dual carraigeway bypass) they must have opted for the castleisland bypass.

Mind you how many times has this government promised a road project to start during that year and the dont follow through. Example the N18 gort - crusheen should have started earlier than november last year.

bill_ashmount

Am I reading this wrong or will there be only one new road started next year, a 5.5 km stretch outside Castleisland?????

Tech3

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Am I reading this wrong or will there be only one new road started next year, a 5.5 km stretch outside Castleisland?????

Well the inter urbans are still ongoing and the gort to crusheen was declared as a project starting in 2009 even though construction started last november. So yep this year its only gort-crusheen and castleisland. Looking at the current state of our economy it isint suprising.

L1011

I was surprised about Castleisland until I remembered its a seriously marginal FF constituency compared to some of the others... surprise surprise.

Chris_533976

The fact that Castleisland is going ahead but not Newlands or the N11 gap shows just what a politically motivated dump this country has become.

Newlands isnt even mentioned in all this. It is disgraceful that they're pushing other schemes ahead of this.

It is also stupid that they're pedalling Gorey - Enniscorthy with the N11 gap still there. For gods sake, put the money for this CPO as well as Castleisland, delay something else (the N56 scheme for instance) and build the N11 gap and Newlands. Those should be top priority.

Projects going towards the CPO stage is meaningless. They can decide what they're going to CPO, but I dont know if they actually have to fork over the cash.

Good to see though that the M20 is getting fast-tracked. I think someone finally woke up about that one. It seems to have been changed from three schemes to two, a northern and a southern section, though where the middle will be I dont know. Rumours are that it'll be two PPP projects, possibly each tolled, but that is JUST A RUMOUR.

Edit: Cork will be happy, 5 out of the 7 schemes going to CPO connect with Cork!

bill_ashmount

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Edit: Cork will be happy, 5 out of the 7 schemes going to CPO connect with Cork!

Ya, from a Cork point of view that was very positive, assuming there will be progress after they go to CPO? Not sure if the whole announcement is just a PR exercise though.

BluntGuy

Well, the fact that the N22 Cork Northern Ring Road scheme is going to CPO along with the M20 schemes shows that they've at least copped onto the fact that you can't just shove a full-blown motorway into the city without proper roads to distribute the traffic.

But I sincerely hope the N22 (or more likely M22) designs have been revised. The junction designs are dreadful. The M8/M22 gives me nightmares, it's the most horrible creation I've ever seen, a junction straight from the depths of hell.

The proposed designs were outdated when they came up with them and they're even more outdated now. We don't need more Dunkettles springing up about the place. Recession doesn't mean forward-planning goes out the window (well, that is presuming we actually had forward-planning to start with).

Sponge Bob

One new scheme eh !

Not enough people made a fuss about Newlands Cross but it seems some did about Castleisland . Both were equally cancelled in October if you will recall from that time.

CPOs are indeed meaningless, both New Ross and N17 to and N17 around Tuam went through CPO / Bord Pleanala in the past 2 years and then zip

N11 Arklow - Rathnew went through through CPO / Bord Pleanala Hearing in 2004 , remember and remember with the final go aheaad in January 2005 , 4 years ago .

Wicklow CC Told Pooldude in Feb 2005 that

Latest on Rathnew Arklow section from Wicklow CC:
An Bord Pleanála approved the road on 31st January 2005. WE are now into the eight week judicial review period within which any aggrieved party can challenge any aspects of the decision through the courts. If such action is not taken within this period then the Road Scheme is finally confirmed. WCC is then free to commence construction of the scheme. At present we are aiming to start construction of the Road in 2006 with construction completed in 2008.

New Ross has the final go ahead since Christmas Eve 2008 .

At this rate at least 200km of national road will have cleared every statutory process by this time next year but there won't be a bean to build most of them this side of 2020.

This time two years ago, January 2007 , a character who may be a Boardsie published this list here which looks like a Noel Dempsey back to the future scipt

Project progressing towards construction (CPO/EIS underway/imminent):

N4 Carrick-on-Shannon Bypass: 6 km of 2+1 carriageway.
N5 Longford Bypass: 2.6 km of single carriageway from Junction with N4 to west of Longford Town.
N7 Newlands Cross: Grade separated junction to replace at-grade crossroads between Naas Road and Belgard and Fonthill Roads.
N11 Enniscorthy Bypass: 20 km of dual carriageway.
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar Bypass: 16 km of dual carriageway.
N17 Galway to Tuam: 22 km of dual carriageway to Tuam, probably commencing on new N6 near Ballinasloe.
N22 Tralee Bypass/Tralee to Bealagrellagh: 11 km single carriageway eastern bypass of Tralee, from the N70 round to the N69. Also includes a new section of N22 from the Bypass at Camp to the existing N22 at Bealagrellagh.
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom: 42 km single carriageway.
N25 New Ross Bypass: 16 km dual carriageway.
N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton: Upgrade of 4.5 km of existing poor quality dual carriageway.
N26 Ballina/Bohola Phase 2: 18 km single carriageway

I suppose Dempsey will announce a railway line to navan next week

BluntGuy

To be fair, while the majority of CPOs are pretty useless and mean nothing, the fact that the M20 schemes are being progressed so quickly shows that they may just be a little bit more committed to the scheme than I originally thought.

Sadly though, despite its quick progression, it's approaching that all important brick wall... funding.

Stroke Politics

N51 Navan Inner Relief Road is already completed. It only took 3 years to build this piece of road, which opened the week before last. It's about a kilometre in legth......

Sponge Bob

The M20 bit is good news but it cannot possibly go to CPO before route selection and engineering design this year.

It is, however, cheap for Dempsey to announce scads of CPOs and Hearings because they are cheap . It is a long running habit of his and gets cheap publicity for his backbench yahoos .

N25 Carrigtwohill - Midleton is announced every year FFS , it was announced in 2007 and again in 2008 so why should 2009 be any different .....especially with local elections in June .

Same for the Enniscorthy Bypass

Chris_533976

I think they've unofficially made route selection as IIRC someone on this forum had an uncle or someone who got a letter through the door saying that the CPOs would be underway this year and to more or less get out.

Engineering design doesnt completely have to be done before CPO. Detailled design of the width of everything (and hence CPO) can be signed off long before the design of the central barrier for instance.


One interesting thing I read in the Galway Advertiser (I know) today. They made specific reference to the "Gort to Tuam PPP". Now they're not exactly known for researching things, so if they mention this is likely to be true. That N18 Oranmore - Gort and M17 Oranmore - Tuam and Tuam Bypass have been lumped in as one PPP project. Toll or shadow toll, who knows, but its seeming more likely.


edit: Carrigtwohill to Midleton. Agreed its been announced continually. 2007 announcement was because of Amgen. 2008 announcement was cos of 2007 delays. 2009 announcement is to give the impression somethings happening.

trellheim

is there enough traffic M20 both sections to make it worth a 20 or 40 year PPP ?

Carawaystick

Yeah the N11 Arklow Beehive section was bought and some houses demolished about a year ad a bit ago, it's all fenced off and awaiting construction.

I think CPOing any property this year is a foolish, unless like the N20/N22 it's a high priority, because property will probably loose more value and cost less.

Sponge Bob

Galway County Council got €26m for the N17 this year which can only mean CPO funding .

johnnyc

MYOB wrote: »

I was surprised about Castleisland until I remembered its a seriously marginal FF constituency compared to some of the others... surprise surprise.

Thats changed castleisland will changed into south kerry for the next election instead of north kerry...So north kerry was a marginal seat for fianna fail but south kerry isnt

spacetweek

So to summarise, anything that's a PPP can go ahead (no financial commitment on the gov's end), but everything else is borked until 2011 at the earliest when the Interrubans are out of the way, as they're currently burning through all the money, leaving nothing seemingly for anything else.

Well, at least we get the interurbans.

Stroke Politics wrote: »

N51 Navan Inner Relief Road is already completed. It only took 3 years to build this piece of road, which opened the week before last. It's about a kilometre in legth......

Surprisingly , this is often the case. Many motorways have opened in this country in less than 3 years, but just cause a road is single carriageway doesn't make it significantly easier to build. If it's in or near a town like the N51, you could be constrained by existing buildings and roads, or possibly geography. Judging from the map, the N51 needed lots of bridges.

The Tullamore Bypass will also take 3 years to build despite being single carriageway.

Tech3

johnnyc wrote: »

Thats changed castleisland will changed into south kerry for the next election instead of north kerry...So north kerry was a marginal seat for fianna fail but south kerry isnt

The tenders were supposed to be low so that might have encouraged the NRA to approve it.

Castleisland Bypass article

Chris_533976

If thats the case why was Longford culled? That was even cheaper.

Carawaystick

spacetweek wrote: »

The Tullamore Bypass will also take 3 years to build despite being single carriageway.

A pedestrian bridge over the N11 took over a year to build beside the Dargle....

marmurr1916

The Gort-Tuam section of the N18/N17 has gone to tender:

The N17/N18 Gort to Tuam PPP Scheme is for the design, construction, operation, maintenance and financing of approximately 57 kilometres of motorway/dual carriageway forming part of the N17/N18 national primary route together with several kilometres of associated side and link roads. It is intended that the scheme will also include the development and operation (plus associated financing) of a motorway service area. All such elements of work set out above are approximate only and may be reduced or added to by the Authority following dialogue with those Candidates selected to proceed to the next stage of the competition or otherwise at the Authority's absolute discretion. The Authority may also extend the operation and maintenance elements to include other parts of the national road network.
CPV: 45233100, 45223710, 45233000.

BluntGuy

I didn't expect that...

serfboard

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The Gort-Tuam section of the N18/N17 has gone to tender:

I can't believe it! Woohoo! Hallelujah! etc. etc.

OK, I won't get my hopes up too much. I know that things can reside on eTenders for a long time, and even disappear without ever being done.

Two interesting things from the Tender.

... the component elements of the project (N18 Gort to Crusheen, M17 Galway to Tuam and N17 Tuam Bypass)...

Thank God it includes the Tuam bypass as well.

... design, construction, operation, maintenance and financing ... The term of the contract is currently envisaged to be in the order of 30 years ...The scheme will also include the development and operation (plus associated financing) of a motorway service area ...

So it's a PPP. And it includes a Service Area (I think on the Athenry-Tuam section). It doesn't say whether it'll be a Toll or Shadow Toll, however. I presume this will be a matter for negotiation.

Chris_533976

Shadow toll I think. And the Service Area will be at Rathmorrisey, tacked onto the M18/6/17 roundabout. ( )

Etenders I dont usually trust as they're either late/early/wrong, but I'm glad this has appeared. In any case, I'm not believing ANYTHING until I see diggers digging and even then until I see pics in this forum of something being built.

I dont think we're going to see a complete halt to construction, despite the fact that the coffers are dry. Instead, I think we'll see one scheme starting per year until we have money again. Just one scheme per year, and possibly only a token one. But I dont think we'll see a COMPLETE halt. One measly scheme (like Castleisland) will keep the government being able to say "we're doing something". And thats more important than ANYTHING to them at the moment.

So in 2008 that scheme was Gort - Crusheen (last token scheme)
2009 Castleisland
2010 Gort - Tuam PPP or if its too expensive the cheap-ass Longford bypass will be resurrected.

We'll see, but I'm not holding any hope for this yet. Both N18 schemes have been on Etenders before AND BEEN CANCELLED. So we'll see.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Shadow toll I think. And the Service Area will be at Rathmorrisey, tacked onto the M18/6/17 roundabout. ( )

Please tell me they're going to re-design that. It's an awful plan. A dreadful junction made even crappier by having an MSA stapled onto it.

Etenders I dont usually trust as they're either late/early/wrong, but I'm glad this has appeared. In any case, I'm not believing ANYTHING until I see diggers digging and even then until I see pics in this forum of something being built.

I dont think we're going to see a complete halt to construction, despite the fact that the coffers are dry. Instead, I think we'll see one scheme starting per year until we have money again. Just one scheme per year, and possibly only a token one. But I dont think we'll see a COMPLETE halt. One measly scheme (like Castleisland) will keep the government being able to say "we're doing something". And thats more important than ANYTHING to them at the moment.

So in 2008 that scheme was Gort - Crusheen (last token scheme)
2009 Castleisland
2010 Gort - Tuam PPP or if its too expensive the cheap-ass Longford bypass will be resurrected.

We'll see, but I'm not holding any hope for this yet. Both N18 schemes have been on Etenders before AND BEEN CANCELLED. So we'll see.

True. We won't get too hopeful though. The MSA would provide a nice little revenue generator if it wasn't in such a stupid location.

However, this scheme is (obviously) more likely than most to proceed to construction in 2010. If that's the case, it's not too bad.

The other major PPP the NRA are really trying to rush ahead is the M20. What gives me a little hope is that the NRA clearly want to secure funding for these projects so they can get them going and convince everybody they're still doing a good job. The M17/M18/M20 are the main chunks of the Atlantic Corridor, so if they get them done it looks good for them.

But there will be a hard toll, if not on the M18 then the M20 for sure.

Chris_533976

M20 definately, possibly two. AFAIK tho (could be wrong), theres none planned on the M17/M18 PPP. Because -

1) Its too close to the M6 toll at Cappaghtaggle.
2) The M17 is way offline as it is, it'll be empty if its tolled, even emptier than it will be as it is.
3) Unless they restrict the Kiltiernan junction, everyone will just skip an M18 toll too, the old road will be too good as an alternate.

As it stands, I'd accept just about any tolling as its more likely to get them built via tolled PPPs than via direct Government funding in the disaster we have thesedays.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

M20 definately, possibly two. AFAIK tho (could be wrong), theres none planned on the M17/M18 PPP.

I'd say two M20 tolls would be overkill. The motorway is only just around 90 km. The best option is to have one toll just south of Mallow and make it more expensive rather than have two cheaper tolls. I'd rather pay 3.80 once than 1.90 twice. The reason I say build it south of Mallow is obviously to catch people out who'll try and avoid the motorway and force them through Mallow. Sounds mean, but we NEED to use these roads and pay the tolls otherwise we won't get anywhere.

And why is there no M20 MSA mentioned anywhere?

Geogregor

BluntGuy wrote: »

Please tell me they're going to re-design that. It's an awful plan. A dreadful junction made even crappier by having an MSA stapled onto it.

It's not perfect design but let's be honest, how busy this junction is going to be? It is far away from anywhere apart from Galway which is at the end just 70k city/town. I think it is going to work fairly well. It could be done better but is is not a tragedy.
Most traffic is going to be on E-W relation on M6 which is not going to use junction at all.

BluntGuy

Geogregor wrote: »

It's not perfect design but let's be honest, how busy this junction is going to be? It is far away from anywhere apart from Galway which is at the end just 70k city/town. I think it is going to work fairly well. It could be done better but is is not a tragedy.
Most traffic is going to be on E-W relation on M6 which is not going to use junction at all.

True, I wouldn't expect traffic to be huge. But still... for the same amount of money it takes to build that junction, or a modest increase at the most, they could design it as a whirlpool or other free-flow design. Much more efficient, much safer, no congestion and future-proofed entirely. And all within the same land-take, approximately within the same price-range and with large benefits.

The only justification I can see for building that junction is to stick the MSA onto it. But as I have said many times before, the MSA is utterly useless. Who is going to use it? If you're travelling to Galway, you're hardly going to detour so close to your destination, and if you're travelling from Galway, you're likely to have stocked up on petrol already.

Geogregor

BluntGuy wrote: »

True, I wouldn't expect traffic to be huge. But still... for the same amount of money it takes to build that junction, or a modest increase at the most, they could design it as a whirlpool or other free-flow design. Much more efficient, much safer, no congestion and future-proofed entirely. And all within the same land-take, approximately within the same price-range and with large benefits.

The only justification I can see for building that junction is to stick the MSA onto it. But as I have said many times before, the MSA is utterly useless. Who is going to use it? If you're travelling to Galway, you're hardly going to detour so close to your destination, and if you're travelling from Galway, you're likely to have stocked up on petrol already.

People still might want to use on highway facilities. There are service stations on M25 around London even if there are plenty of petrol stations in greater London area. It is all about convenience.
And I think any free flow junction would require much more ground.
The only link which might be needed in future is ramp from Galway to M18 southbound. But only if traffic is really heavy.
It s going to be OK, there are roundabout junctions on London orbital, for example:M25/A3, M25/A10 or M25/A1(M) (this one has even services which you can access from roundabout) they are all DC and are much busier than you can expect around Galway in next century.

Chris_533976

I know its not going to work quite this way, but if you take ALL traffic from the N18, N6 and N17 as they stand and put them on the M6 from the Rathmorrisey Junction to Galway, then you are already extremely close to the 54k capacity of a D2m motorway.

A good chunk of that traffic on a three level stack will jam it up.

I dont think this junction will be a nightmare, it'll be ok with non-severe delays but it does seem very short sighted, especially when its a huge junction in the middle of absolutely nowhere.

The Word Is Bor

BluntGuy wrote: »

I'd say two M20 tolls would be overkill. The motorway is only just around 90 km. The best option is to have one toll just south of Mallow and make it more expensive rather than have two cheaper tolls. I'd rather pay 3.80 once than 1.90 twice. The reason I say build it south of Mallow is obviously to catch people out who'll try and avoid the motorway and force them through Mallow. Sounds mean, but we NEED to use these roads and pay the tolls otherwise we won't get anywhere.

And why is there no M20 MSA mentioned anywhere?

Sorry chief, but if you plonk a toll south of Mallow there will be nobody using the M20. Everybody will get off at Mallow (north) or not bother getting on it at Mallow. It's not far of a journey from Mallow to Cork and the road is relatively good in comparison with the rest of the N20.

Chris_533976

There isnt going to be a Buttevant junction is there? I think the nearest junctions are at Charleville and Mallow. So toll halfway between the two, so the alternate route is the crap through Buttevant? Who'd take THAT as an alternative?

The Word Is Bor

The indicative junction locations as per the EPRC brochure were south of Charleville (around Ballyhea) and Mallow North (out by Oliver's Cross N72/N73).

KevR

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I know its not going to work quite this way, but if you take ALL traffic from the N18, N6 and N17 as they stand and put them on the M6 from the Rathmorrisey Junction to Galway, then you are already extremely close to the 54k capacity of a D2m motorway.

A good chunk of that traffic on a three level stack will jam it up.

I dont think this junction will be a nightmare, it'll be ok with non-severe delays but it does seem very short sighted, especially when its a huge junction in the middle of absolutely nowhere.

A lot of R339 (quite a busy route into Galway) traffic will switch to the M6 too. For example, many people from Athenry and surrounding areas use the R347 + R339 (as alternative to the R348 + N6) to get to Galway - can't see many of these people not switching to the M6. The thing that will put people off using the M6 will be the roundabout at Doughiska.

I remember Noel Grealish saying that the N6, R338 and R339 (Galway's 3 eastern approach roads) carried a combined 65,000 vehicles per day. The N6 and R338 would include N18 traffic but that 65,000 figure doesn't include the N17 at all..

The M6 will be ok when it first opens but I feel that when the M17/18 are connected on to it there could be problems with congestion between Galway (J20) and Rathmorrisey Interchange(J18)/Athenry Junction(J17).

They should just make an extra bit of effort and do a proper job on the Rathmorrisey Interchange. It won't be a massive nightmare (because of the free-flow left turn slips) but it would be worth it in the long run just to do it properly from the beginning.
PS - It really does seem like the reason for the roundabout is so they can attach the MSA onto it.

Geogregor

KevR wrote: »

I remember Noel Grealish saying that the N6, R338 and R339 (Galway's 3 eastern approach roads) carried a combined 65,000 vehicles per day. The N6 and R338 would include N18 traffic but that 65,000 figure doesn't include the N17 at all..

Sorry guys but I find this numbers completely improbable. The busiest motorways in Poland (A4 around Katowice) carry around 90-100k per day and it is in the middle of industrial region with population bigger than all Ireland.
How come that such small city like Galway cause almost as much traffic as 5mln conurbation?
Where are this numbers taken from?
Even M50 around Dublin carry only around 90k per day if I'm right. There is no way that traffic around Galway comes even remotely close to such numbers, even if you include all small county lanes.


Full free flow junction is not necessary there, there are much more needed projects to spend money on, looking on Ireland map.
I think guys you are just spoiled with amount of road building in Ireland in recent years and sometimes just go over the top with your wishes.


It is good to build roads future-proof but you cant exaggerate and build infrastructure which won't be necessary for years. It might makes sense if you have a lot of money but at the moment I don't think Ireland has spare cash to spend
By the way I hope construction of N18/N17 and N20 start soon. (resonable soon)

KevR

Geogregor wrote: »

Sorry guys but I find this numbers completely improbable.

The busiest motorways in Poland (A4 around Katowice) carry around 90-100k per day and it is in the middle of industrial region with population bigger than all Ireland.
How come that such small city like Galway cause almost as much traffic as 5mln conurbation?

Obviously the roads in Galway City combined don't generate anywhere near the same amount of traffic as all the roads combined in a 5 million urban area in Poland. The M6 specifically will possibly be the busiest road in Galway. It will be a major national interurban route (carrying Galway-Dublin, Limerick & Cork traffic) as well as a major commuter route (Athenry, Loughrea, Gort, Tuam, Ballinasloe.....etc). 60,000+ per day on the M6 (between Galway and Rathmorrisey/Athenry) is not unrealistic in my opinion.

Where are this numbers taken from?

Noel Dempsey (a local politican) is the person who came out with the 65,000 figure for the city's 3 eastern approach roads. Not sure where he got his figures from because I can't seem to find any traffic counts for these roads online. I would really like to see a recent traffic count for the N6 Dual Carriageway for somewhere close to Ballybrit or Doughiska. From driving regularly on it I can say that it is a busy road and I think you'd be surprised by the traffic count for it.

To be honest, I can't see 65,000 being that far off the mark for the 3 eastern approach roads combined and I think the M6 will be a busy stretch between Galway and Rathmorrisey/Athenry. We will have to wait and see. I might be wrong and it could be a completely empty road when it opens.

Also, we need to remember that one couldn't, for example, compare Cork and Galway with Kidderminster and Rochdale respectively in England. They're roughly the same size but in no way similar. People are drawn out of Kidderminster and Rochdale into Birmingham and Manchester in large numbers on a daily basis where as people from outside Cork and Galway are drawn into these cities everyday. Cork, Galway and Limerick are always going to be busier and more important in a national context than similarly sized towns in other countries with much bigger populations. The likes of Rochdale/Kidderminster will never need or get the same level of infrastructure that Cork, Galway or Limerick will need/get.

Sponge Bob

Lads. I feel that there will be at most 2 bidders for this PPP and that both bids will be rejected ....albeit not until after the local elections in June

PPP economics are all ****ed up now.

1. The government used to borrow at the same rate as the Germans ( c.3%) but must now borrow at c 5.7%...and rising.

2. A PPP is where the private sector could borrow at a similar cost to the government but do a better job. As the government was paying the PPP consortium got financed at a rate reflecting the solvency of the government not the private sector. PPPs were pseudo rated as government borrowing if you like even though they were private sector borrowing paid for by the government.

3. This is all gone now. The private sector will probably look for a rate of return of around 10% ...being 5.7% government borrowing rate + Credit Default Insurance Costs of about 2.3% in case of default + a few quid for themselves for all the hassle on top ...say 2% = 10%

Then there is the cost of paying the loan back over 30 years too.

4. This means that the government would be better off financing and building the road itself . 10% per annum ( for 30 years of a DBO contract) for something you could do for 5.7% is insane ....not that Noel Dempsey cares about these things but the dept of Finance certainly does.

Therefore I believe that this will be the only sizeable PPP around for quite some time and that it will fail utterly .

The government may even scale it back from a DBO to a DB _if_ as seems unlikely they get anyone to bid.

Geogregor

KevR wrote: »

Obviously the roads in Galway City combined don't generate anywhere near the same amount of traffic as all the roads combined in a 5 million urban area in Poland. The M6 specifically will possibly be the busiest road in Galway. It will be a major national interurban route (carrying Galway-Dublin, Limerick & Cork traffic) as well as a major commuter route (Athenry, Loughrea, Gort, Tuam, Ballinasloe.....etc). 60,000+ per day on the M6 (between Galway and Rathmorrisey/Athenry) is not unrealistic in my opinion.

Equally A4 is the busiest road in Silesia region, apart from serving as important local motorway it is also major connection between Germany and Ukraine. And it only gets about 90-100k.
65k a day, going west of Galway it means that every women, man, child and toddler drive west of Galway at least once a day. It's absurd calculation.

Noel Dempsey (a local politican) is the person who came out with the 65,000 figure for the city's 3 eastern approach roads. Not sure where he got his figures from because I can't seem to find any traffic counts for these roads online. I would really like to see a recent traffic count for the N6 Dual Carriageway for somewhere close to Ballybrit or Doughiska. From driving regularly on it I can say that it is a busy road and I think you'd be surprised by the traffic count for it.

So this is typical number from celling (as we say in Poland They probably choose the busiest hour then multiply it by 24 and that's how they came out with such numbers.
Ech, politicians.
2 lane motorway can handle about 54-55k a day comfortably as far as I know. N6 is not motorway it is DC with roundabouts and I'm sure numbers are much lower. Even if you add some local approaches it is difficult to imagine 65k a day approaching Galway from the east.

To be honest, I can't see 65,000 being that far off the mark for the 3 eastern approach roads combined and I think the M6 will be a busy stretch between Galway and Rathmorrisey/Athenry. We will have to wait and see. I might be wrong and it could be a completely empty road when it opens.

I just can't imagine motorways somewhere on the far side of small island, at the end of the continent, next to the small city, to have traffic counts close to major trans-european corridors on the continent.
I might be wrong but I'll be surprise if I am.

Also, we need to remember that one couldn't, for example, compare Cork and Galway with Kidderminster and Rochdale respectively in England. They're roughly the same size but in no way similar. People are drawn out of Kidderminster and Rochdale into Birmingham and Manchester in large numbers on a daily basis where as people from outside Cork and Galway are drawn into these cities everyday. Cork, Galway and Limerick are always going to be busier and more important in a national context than similarly sized towns in other countries with much bigger populations. The likes of Rochdale/Kidderminster will never need or get the same level of infrastructure that Cork, Galway or Limerick will need/get.

Of course there is an extra traffic coming to regional center but Kidderminster is also local center for some local towns like Stouport-on-Severn etc. (I have spent some time around Kidderminster)
Also, even if a lot of people leave Kidderminster for Birmingham and other bigger cities It also generates traffic. Plus, you have traffic just passing by (which is smaller factor for cities on the coast like Galway) Overall I wouldn't expect huge difference in traffic counts around Galway and similar size cities in UK.


Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against free flow junction at M6/M17/M18. I just don't think it is necessary and that lack of it will cause some major traffic problems. As I mentioned in previous posts there are a lot busier junctions having configuration as proposed for this junction. (M25 examples) and they work just about fine.
And anyway, it is all already designed so we have to wait and see what happens when road opens.

busman

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

Sorry chief, but if you plonk a toll south of Mallow there will be nobody using the M20. Everybody will get off at Mallow (north) or not bother getting on it at Mallow. It's not far of a journey from Mallow to Cork and the road is relatively good in comparison with the rest of the N20.

From the route selection document it appears the M20 is just going to be a upgrade to the N20 south of Mallow. It shows it following it all the way from junction 3 just south of mallow to the north ring linkup.

So unless you are willing to take to the back roads you would be forced to use the toll!

Chris_533976

If this is being built as motorway I'd say they'll build a parallel road for a chunk of it, as it'll be built as motorway from day 1 and will be partly online.

Chris_533976

Geogregor wrote: »

Sorry guys but I find this numbers completely improbable. The busiest motorways in Poland (A4 around Katowice) carry around 90-100k per day and it is in the middle of industrial region with population bigger than all Ireland.
How come that such small city like Galway cause almost as much traffic as 5mln conurbation?
Where are this numbers taken from?
Even M50 around Dublin carry only around 90k per day if I'm right. There is no way that traffic around Galway comes even remotely close to such numbers, even if you include all small county lanes.


Full free flow junction is not necessary there, there are much more needed projects to spend money on, looking on Ireland map.
I think guys you are just spoiled with amount of road building in Ireland in recent years and sometimes just go over the top with your wishes.


It is good to build roads future-proof but you cant exaggerate and build infrastructure which won't be necessary for years. It might makes sense if you have a lot of money but at the moment I don't think Ireland has spare cash to spend
By the way I hope construction of N18/N17 and N20 start soon. (resonable soon)

Here are the numbers. Gotta extrapolate a little as the counters arent in the EXACT places, but we can make a resonable guess. Again, this assumes that every single car will use the new road, which is untrue but still interesting.

N6 east of Ballinasloe = 13,000 (say 15,000 closer to Galway)
N18 at Gort = 13,000 (say 14,000 closer to Galway)
N17 at Claregalway = 23,000 (say 24,000 closer to Galway).

Thats 49,000 AADT already.

Take into account the new traffic that these roads may generate, and you're very close to capacity of a D2m.

Now all this traffic will have to use one at-grade roundabout in Galway, so I look forward to the chaos that will generate.

Rathmorrisey junction should really be higher specced and the M6 should be D3M from Rathmorrisey to Galway.

Edit: Data from -

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N06-14.htm
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N18-6.htm

Sponge Bob

The N17 traffic will not use the M17 , by and large and may be discounted by 50% , the counter is south of Claregalway and does not count traffic bypassing Galway via the N18 Oranmore - Claregalway road ....and you counted some of that in the Gort stats .

Then again you should add another 3000 each nearer Galway on the N18 and N6 but these all come through a tight roundabout in Oranmore right now .

I would think that the M6 at Doughiska will see 30k cars a day at most and yes Furet you are right about the roundabout there .

The D3M argument can wait till after this economic hiatus TBH .

Then again I remember 3 versions of the N6 Galway - Oranmore in my lifetime before this scheme and this scheme will thusly be the 4th main road out of galway to the east in my memory . The 5th will likely be that D3M

Geogregor

Chris_533976 wrote: »

N6 east of Ballinasloe = 13,000 (say 15,000 closer to Galway)

East of Ballinasloe. So a lot of it is commuter traffic between Ballinasloe and Athlone. You can't assume that all this traffic will go to Galway. It is 50km away.

N18 at Gort = 13,000 (say 14,000 closer to Galway)

Again counting local Gort traffic. Where did they count? In the city?

N17 at Claregalway = 23,000 (say 24,000 closer to Galway).

Here as Sponge said not all the traffic will use future M17

Thats 49,000 AADT already.

Take into account the new traffic that these roads may generate, and you're very close to capacity of a D2m.

Again assuming all this traffic counted in three quite distant locations will accumulate at the same junction

Now all this traffic will have to use one at-grade roundabout in Galway, so I look forward to the chaos that will generate.

Are you talking about final Galway junction? I agree it is going to be problem. On the other hand motorway has to end somewhere. You can't build flyovers all the way to the city center.
I was talking about grade separated roundabout where M6 meets M18/M17 (I think this is the final junction design). Here most traffic will go in east-west direction with no need of using roundabout. Also north-south traffic will have free flow flyover. There are going to be free flow ramps for left turning traffic so only traffic using mid-level roundabout (240m diameter) are cars turning right and making U-turn.
Someone was complaining there is no free flow but I think it should all work fine.

M6 should be D3M from Rathmorrisey to Galway.

Here you might be right but again it is not sure. Some people might still use old (current) N6 to move around Galway and Oranmore.
Will they leave reserve for future widening?

Sponge Bob

Geogregor wrote: »

Again assuming all this traffic counted in three quite distant locations will accumulate at the same junction

Exactly Geogregor And it won't , of course .

You are also quite right in pointing out that traffic east of Ballinasloe includes a sizeable element heading to work or shop in Athlone and that traffic south of Gort would include a sizeable local element and a sizeable element heading for shops in Ennis .

Against that he only added another +1000 per road for traffic further in and I gave him +3000 as a more realistic figure.

KevR

Geogregor wrote: »

East of Ballinasloe. So a lot of it is commuter traffic between Ballinasloe and Athlone. You can't assume that all this traffic will go to Galway. It is 50km away.

That's true a nice portion of that traffic won't be going to Galway. But on the other hand that traffic count wouldn't include any commuter traffic from Ballinasloe, Loughrea, Craughwell, Athenry and Oranmore. I'm sure that a traffic count on the N6 a lot closer to Galway would definitely have higher results than the one East of Ballinasloe although not everyone will switch to the M6.

I would say the figures Chris mentioned would be about right. I do wish that we had some recent traffic counts for these roads and the R339 also.

Again assuming all this traffic counted in three quite distant locations will accumulate at the same junction

Most Oranmore-Galway traffic will use the 'old' N6 DC or the Coast Road. But th N6 DC will come though the same RAB as the M6. It will be difficult to avoid..

Are you talking about final Galway junction? I agree it is going to be problem. On the other hand motorway has to end somewhere. You can't build flyovers all the way to the city center.

The final at-grade roundabout in Galway was/is only supposed to be a temporary terminating point for the M6. The plan is to extend the M6 around the North of the city - basically a Northern Ring Road. But there are planning permission problems and finance problems with this project so it looks like Doughiska misery for some years.

Will they leave reserve for future widening?

It doesn't look like they are leaving room for future widening. The rock cutting at Doughiska doesn't look wide enough to take any extra lanes and the bridges that are being built don't look like they're being built with future widening in mind.

ilovegermany

Does anybody know if there are any drawings/photomontages of the proposed Rathmorrissy Junction?

mysterious

Chris_533976 wrote: »

N6 east of Ballinasloe = 13,000 (say 15,000 closer to Galway)
N18 at Gort = 13,000 (say 14,000 closer to Galway)
N17 at Claregalway = 23,000 (say 24,000 closer to Galway).

Thats 49,000 AADT already.

Take into account the new traffic that these roads may generate, and you're very close to capacity of a D2m.

Now all this traffic will have to use one at-grade roundabout in Galway, so I look forward to the chaos that will generate.

Rathmorrisey junction should really be higher specced and the M6 should be D3M from Rathmorrisey to Galway.

But not all this traffic is going to go to Galway, god your post is nothing but stupid:mad:

Your basically saying that, and this is your words and your facts. That all traffic coming from N17/18/19 are going to galway for the fun and joy and because you say so.

NO ITS NOT

You have forgot to mention that local traffic will still use the existing roads.

You forgot to mention that a large chunk of the N18 traffic is going to go north to the N17 as it currently does at the current arrangement. It doesn't need to go via Galway, as does the current layout N18 which ends in Claregalway not Galway.

You also have to take into a account that the N17 is not going to attract 23,000. It will only attract about 10,000 at most on the new motorway

Enough of this exaggeration balony. It might fool others, but you wont fool me in the slightest chris. Good jesus, your post is incredibly biased and inaccurate just to sway your point of view to your argument of your needs.


The existing N6, carries at most 13,000, it doesnt need to Be Dual 3 lane.


The N7 near Limerick is vastly higher. The current N7 between Nenagh handles about 17,000 a day and up to 24,000 at the bypass and 20,000 on the old N7 into Limerick. The M7 isn't going to be Dual 3 lane.

Although I do agree with extra wide verges for a future lane though near the cities.

marmurr1916

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Now all this traffic will have to use one at-grade roundabout in Galway.

Not quite. It's going to be a three-level stacked roundabout but with freeflow slip-roads to allow certain M6-M18/M17 movements to avoid using the roundabout.

You need to look at the diagram of the proposed Rathmorrisey interchange more closely.

mysterious

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Not quite. It's going to be a three-level stacked roundabout but with freeflow slip-roads to allow certain M6-M18/M17 movements to avoid using the roundabout.

You need to look at the diagram of the proposed Rathmorrisey interchange more closely.

I Think Chris is talking about the M6 roundabout proposed in galway on the existing bypass where the M6 will funnell onto.