This "Social Partnership" Rubbish

Rabidlamb

This union appeasing model only worked during the good years.
Would you like a 6% increase for doing nowt extra, "yes please, see you again in 6 months".
All this latest posturing by the unions makes me sick.
A real leader would tell it to them straight.
A real leader would make unilateral cuts.
If you want to strike then good, we don't have to pay you when you're striking.
Take your chances in the private sector if you don't like your terms.

What percentage of workers are actually members of unions anyway.
This government seems to encourage bad news so as to legitimize their position.
10% off for starters then see you in 6 months.
How's that partner.

I voted FF in the last election & my missus is in the public sector.

mike65

Tis ironic that "social(ist) partnership" originated in 1987 then. When we hadn't two beans to rub together.

It was a curse during the good times as it pumped up the public sector esp the wage bill with the flipping benchmarking scam and now its still got to be paid for.

sink

It fulfilled it's raison d'être in the late 80's by dramatically reducing the number of strikes by the labour unions. During the boom years it was superfluous to the needs of the public sector and it's employees. It was like putting the country on xanax to calm anxiety but we kept it for too long and now we've developed an addiction that will be painful to break.

OhNoYouDidn't

So people want to add industrial unrest into the current mix? :rolleyes:

Social Partnership fulfilled its primary functions in reducing strikes to essentially none, protecting lower paid workers and bringing public sector earnings up to a liveable wage.

Now in a fit of pique because 'the country cant afford it' (TM, Independent News and Media) you want to go back to indivdual bargaining across the public and sections of the private sector? And that will be better how exactly?

Try thinking through the consequences of these calls to arms gents.

Rabidlamb

What are the estimated cuts going to be ?.

Do the Unions have to go back & get approval from their members ?.

How long is all this going to take ?.

Nero fiddled etc etc . . .

OhNoYouDidn't

Rabidlamb wrote: »

What are the estimated cuts going to be ?.

Do the Unions have to go back & get approval from their members ?.

How long is all this going to take ?.

Nero fiddled etc etc . . .

Its not the unions fault - if Cowen has cuts in mind, let him propose them. The unions have indicated a willingness to defer promised payrises.

But the irony is that if there was no partnership, his job of getting public sector paycuts would be infinitely more difficult as he would have to negotiate with dozens of bodies and unions, rather than one group.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Now in a fit of pique because 'the country cant afford it' (TM, Independent News and Media)

You think the country can?

hobochris

what pisses me off is that all these people were happy with benchmarking when times were good but now, when cuts are NEEDED they throw a hissy fit and threaten to strike. what ever happened to to take the good with the bad?

From what i can see the idea of cutting public sector wages is so that the private sector can follow, I.e. company bosses can cut staff wages(justifying it against public sector wages) and reduce prices. So in turn everything becomes cheaper and we become competitive again as a country. but since the government doesn't have the balls to not take **** from the unions this will be a slow and un-productive process during which the country will suffer.

Personally I think that the cuts need to be made across the board in one sweep; cut public sector pay, cut private sector pay, cut prices of goods and services, weather we like it or not to get out of this we're all going to have to take a hit.

K-9

Yep, happy to take Benchmarking when times were good, now when jobs are being lost and hours cut, they don't want to hear of pay cuts.

Anybody for another rounds of Benchmarking?

OhNoYouDidn't

hobochris wrote: »

what pisses me off is that all these people were happy with benchmarking when times were good but now, when cuts are NEEDED they throw a hissy fit and threaten to strike. what ever happened to to take the good with the bad?.

Did they? Did they really? Are you sure you didn't dream that? Because no-one has approached the unions with anything to throw a hissy fit about.

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

You think the country can?

No, but I think the public versus private wedge is being artificially contrived.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, but I think the public versus private wedge is being artificially contrived.

Artificially?

Or maybe Benchmarking created it?

hobochris

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Did they? Did they really? Are you sure you didn't dream that? Because no-one has approached the unions with anything to throw a hissy fit about.

it doesn't need to be put officially to the union for them to voice their planned action against it. example: nurses union.

OhNoYouDidn't

hobochris wrote: »

it doesn't need to be put officially to the union for them to voice their planned action against it. example: nurses union.

source for the nurses union threatning a strike over the hypothetical situation of paycuts?

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Artificially?

Or maybe Benchmarking created it?

I don't know anyone who wants to see the public sector dragged down with us. Pensions are a different script, but no-one outside of IBEC and the Indo opinion pages are proposing it.

In the real world, this resentment doesn't exist.

Boggle

So people want to add industrial unrest into the current mix?

No, but now that we have such a high minimum wage and given that everybody is free to look for a better job, they should no longer be allowed to strike in the name of greed - and thats all it is as the average wage nationwide is also taking a pummeling.

If its a harassment, working conditions, health and safety, etc issue then fine strike all you like - but waking up one morning and deciding the rest of the country OWES you a deadly living is not on either.

hobochris

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

source for the nurses union threatning a strike over the hypothetical situation of paycuts?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnojeyqlkf/

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't know anyone who wants to see the public sector dragged down with us. Pensions are a different script, but no-one outside of IBEC and the Indo opinion pages are proposing it.

In the real world, this resentment doesn't exist.

Indeed, it's more fear of spending €55 Billion when our income is €35 Billion and wondering were it will lead us.

OhNoYouDidn't

Boggle wrote: »

No, but now that we have such a high minimum wage and given that everybody is free to look for a better job, they should no longer be allowed to strike in the name of greed - and thats all it is as the average wage nationwide is also taking a pummeling.

If its a harassment, working conditions, health and safety, etc issue then fine strike all you like - but waking up one morning and deciding the rest of the country OWES you a deadly living is not on either.

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

OhNoYouDidn't

hobochris wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnojeyqlkf/

Thats a localised issue with management / the HSE.

Where did the unions threaten a strike over the media chatter about cutting public sector pay?

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Indeed, it's more fear of spending €55 Billion when our income is €35 Billion and wondering were it will lead us.

Agreed, but I don't know of anyone blaming the public sector for that outside of an IBEC/Indo media spin

Rabidlamb

hobochris wrote: »

Personally I think that the cuts need to be made across the board in one sweep; cut public sector pay, cut private sector pay, cut prices of goods and services, weather we like it or not to get out of this we're all going to have to take a hit.

This I agree on, there should be a day declared in the near future where everyone's pay is docked 10%. Sure mortgages would be more expensive but rates are coming down. All other costs will reduce accordingly over a period of time. If we are still uncompetitive rinse, lather & repeat.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Agreed, but I don't know of anyone blaming the public sector for that outside of an IBEC/Indo media spin

Agreed, but what paid for the Benchmarking and pay deals that we now can't afford?

The problem is we were so reliant on Property etc. for tax revenue, we are now b**lixed as there is nothing to replace that revenue and there will not be, for the forseeable future.

OhNoYouDidn't

Rabidlamb wrote: »

This I agree on, there should be a day declared in the near future where everyone's pay is docked 10%. Sure mortgages would be more expensive but rates are coming down. All other costs will reduce accordingly over a period of time. If we are still uncompetitive rinse, lather & repeat.

So the wedge between rich and poor becomes even wider.

Why would I bother working hard, innovating and improving processes for an arbitrary pay cut.

You are on la la land of you think the root problems in the Irish economy will be solved by attacking ordinary workers.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

However, it would be wrong to suggest that the bloated public sector remain untouched during this time of recession. I with you in the conviction that the public sector is getting unfairly treated. However, the private sector has lost countless jobs, and there are more losses to come. Look at the HSE, in an attempt to streamline the organisation, not one public sector worker was laid off or given volunatry retirement/redundancy. Remember, it is the private sector who make money and create wealth, the public sector facilitate the making of money. In 1977 the Government utilised the public sector to create jobs, failing to see how bloating it would adveresely effect a fluid economy.

In terms of the model, I believe it has run its course, and is in desperate need of reform. Since the begiinning of the troubled times, the leading light in SIPTU, Jackie O Conner, has been gleefully dancing on the purported grave of "Reganomics". He has shown no interest in moving forward, only interest in condemning the economically liberal. People like him, with such a balck and white view of society are incapable of partnership. He will be happy to cause difficuly for the government, and push his regressive lefty politics to the fore. I dont see him capable of agreement, and he could be the stumbling block over any talk of public ector cuts

Boggle

WHO IS TALKING ABOUT STRIKING?

Who indeed...

And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

No its not. The public lads got payrises based on incomes generated during a bubble. That bubble has popped and the income is gone. Therefore we cannot afford to mollycoddle any sector of society.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

Let me see who in the public sector had a hand to play in the bubble:
- Politicians
- Councils
- Planners
- Regulator
- Any others??
In fact without such generous(??) policies, it could not have happened.


Who in the private sector had a hand? developers, bankers and estate agents.
(Edit: Makers of brown envelopes also culpable!!)

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So the wedge between rich and poor becomes even wider.

Why would I bother working hard, innovating and improving processes for an arbitrary pay cut.

You are on la la land of you think the root problems in the Irish economy will be solved by attacking ordinary workers.

There is far greater things which can be done besides "attacking the ordinary workers". But wait until the Government try to sell the remaining 190million stake in Aer Lingus, or try to split CIE into competing companies ! Then you will se what the ordinary worker is capable of.

spank_inferno

I work un an unnamed dublin restaraunt.
One night I was waiting on Brian Cowan who was having a meal with his wife. They seemed to take long time reading the menu.
I went over to them to see if they needed assistance or were ready to order.
I noticed Mr Cowan was on a call so I asked his wife if they needed anything.

She smiled and replied that her husband has just read the entire menu to
Jack O'Connor & Turlough O'Sullivan on a conference call and he is waiting
for them to decide what he wants to eat.

None of the above is true

My Point is: Desperate times call for bold leadership
Brian Cowan should have the 'nads to say "from now on X, Y & Z will be payed €xx,xxx per year. Dont like it? Get a job in the private sector."

Remember folks that these people arent "social partners" they are high paid lobbyists & nothing more. They express the views of those that pay them and no one else.

The only organisation that represent all the people of Ireland in social partnership is the government themselves, & as such they should be the only ones making decisions.
(I've no problem with consulting people but this seems like devolution of power to lobby groups!)

K-9

Well said Boggle. Really I can't think anybody can argue with that.

Public Sector workers rightly complain about Developers, Govt. etc. but they were one of the biggest beneficiaries of the taxes generated by stupid policies.

Mr.Micro

However, it would be wrong to suggest that the bloated public sector remain untouched during this time of recession.

In reality this is true IMO, if the public sector workers were employed by private companies they would be fighting for their jobs and not arguing or refusing to take a pay cut of 10%. The public sector is too top heavy especially if services are to be cut. Public sector workers are not as immune as they may feel to the meltdown.

K-9

Mr.Micro wrote: »

In reality this is true IMO, if the public sector workers were employed by private companies they would be fighting for their jobs and not arguing or refusing to take a pay cut of 10%. The public sector is too top heavy especially if services are to be cut. Public sector workers are not as immune as they may feel to the meltdown.

Thought I heard one of the Co. Co's laying off 70 odd workers yesterday.

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

Mr.Micro

Seanies32 wrote: »

Thought I heard one of the Co. Co's laying off 70 odd workers yesterday.

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

I think you are right there.

OhNoYouDidn't

Seanies32 wrote: »

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

Surely that should read "If cuts are enforced...."?

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Surely that should read "If cuts are enforced...."?

Sorry, bit unclear. If pay cuts aren't enforced would be better.

The expenditure cuts will happen one way or the other. We have a choice at the moment in how that will be done.

jmayo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't know anyone who wants to see the public sector dragged down with us. Pensions are a different script, but no-one outside of IBEC and the Indo opinion pages are proposing it.

In the real world, this resentment doesn't exist.

Actually in the real world there are a lot of p***ed off people who have watched their pensions go down the tubes, had to take pay cuts or lost their jobs.
All they hear from union leaders, primarily representing public sector workers or ex public sector workers is that they will not take pay cuts, want pay rises and it is all the fault of greedy private sector people.

They appear to have neglected remembering any form of basic arithmetic from primary school i.e. the government do not have enough money to keep the thing going as is.
Ireland is spending more money than we are earning.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

...
And the idea, in the context of an economic crisis caused globally by bankers and locally by property speculators of the public sector being pilloried for greed is ludicrious.

The public sector did not cause this mess, and much as IBEC want the debate shifted to them, hammering the public sector and telling them to go and work in Spar if they don't like it will achieve precious little.

No the ordinary worker be they public sector workers or private sector workers did not cause all of this but the private sector workers are baring the total brunt of it.

As I have asked on a few threads ...
WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM ?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Surely that should read "If cuts are enforced...."?

Once again for those hard of hearing and with bad eyesight...
WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM ?

We are not able to devalue our currency.
We cannot borrow since our borrowing is limited by ECB/EU, nobody will lend us the money.
Even if we could borrow the amounts involved, it would be at huge interest rates because we will be seen as a bad risk.

So once again where will the government find the money to continue to keep a public sector going that costs more than the revenues raised by taxes ?
Do we cut the services available to the public ?
For instance do we cut health services to patients ?
Remember more people are now depend on public health than before.

Or maybe we go back to days of 65% tax rates ?

At social partnership talks, the unions represent primarily employees in public sector, those in pretty large old school businesses such as banking, insurance or heavily unionsed ex public sector entities such as Aer Lingus or Eircom.
IBEC do not represent me either, so I am stuck with Biffo and Brian.
Comforting isn't it :rolleyes:

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote: »

Thought I heard one of the Co. Co's laying off 70 odd workers yesterday.

Unless cuts are enforced, front line services will be drastically affected like the 80's.

Kildare Co Co are letting 78 people go.

Partnership is the greatest con ever played on the general public. We have to bail out the banks and we have to keep paying the wages of the over blown public service. It's a fcukin joke. I've written to allmy TDs to express my wish for partnership to be abandoned forever. The government should govern-does anybody really believe the public service will strike? How much sympathy would teachers etc. receive outside the schools from the now unemployed parents? They would be pegged with eggs and rightly so if they striked! Lucky to have secure jobs so they are.

juuge

Who is that twat Jack O'Connor anyway? holding the country to ransom and him on 137grand + 'up the woorkers'

OhNoYouDidn't

juuge wrote: »

Who is that twat Jack O'Connor anyway? holding the country to ransom and him on 137grand + 'up the woorkers'

He is the elected leader of the countries largest union.

Again, I hate to get in the way of the baying mob, but exactly what are SIPTU doing to 'hold the country to ransom'?

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He is the elected leader of the countries largest union.

Again, I hate to get in the way of the baying mob, but exactly what are SIPTU doing to 'hold the country to ransom'?

I would urge you to substitute yourself for any chief executive in any organisation. Then you would see what SIPTU do. I know enough of them who have more trouble with SIPTU than any other Union. They know no alternative forms of action except steeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-RIKE !

They have been the most obstructionist and regressive organisation in Ireland. I blame SIPTU for Bertie's decision to send Willie Walsh from Aer Lingus. Walsh was doing a superb job, and he was a man with a moral responsibility. However, the likes of Claire Daly were so anxious to keep Aer Lingus in state control, so they could continue to hold he organisation at gunpoint.

They have continued to argue for wage increases, even though it was seriously reducing Ireland's competiveness, and have done so regardless of sustainability. This continues to today, and I blame them for artificially inflating wages, and diminishing any good name of management.

Elected or No...O Conner is a tool. He believes in complete state ownership...and has widely criticised the entrance of Ryanair into the aviation market. As I have mentioned, he has been celebrating the purported demise of neo liberalism, rather then coming up with any solutions. He does nothing for Ireland

zootroid

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He is the elected leader of the countries largest union.

Again, I hate to get in the way of the baying mob, but exactly what are SIPTU doing to 'hold the country to ransom'?

Jesus, you make it sound like he's the prime minister of a country. He's not, he is simply a (well) paid member of an organisation that looks after his member's interests, with little regard to anything else.

At the moment Ireland is struggling to get back on it's feet, and needs to borrow to run the every day services the country requires. This money has to come from somewhere. Much has been said about we can't borrow anymore, but why would we want to anyway? We need to get our own house in order, and maybe then the country can return to its former competitive base. I would start by having the public sector pay a contribution to their own pensions, I don't see why the tax payer should foot the bill. And if private sector employees pay PRSI contributions, then there is no reason why public sector employees should be exempt. (I realise that only a percentage are exempt, but you get my point).

NewDubliner

zootroid wrote: »

And if private sector employees pay PRSI contributions, then there is no reason why public sector employees should be exempt. (I realise that only a percentage are exempt, but you get my point).

I think it's only pre-1995 Civil Servants that pay the reduced rate of PRSI (they're not totally exempt). And, their salary scale is less than post-1995 civil servants, because of this.

If you put them on full rate, wouldn't that mean that that they'd then also be entitled to Social Welfare medical, dental, optical and pension benefits and would have to be paid the same as the post 1995 staff?

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

I would urge you to substitute yourself for any chief executive in any organisation. Then you would see what SIPTU do. I know enough of them who have more trouble with SIPTU than any other Union. They know no alternative forms of action except steeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-RIKE !

They have been the most obstructionist and regressive organisation in Ireland. I blame SIPTU for Bertie's decision to send Willie Walsh from Aer Lingus. Walsh was doing a superb job, and he was a man with a moral responsibility. However, the likes of Claire Daly were so anxious to keep Aer Lingus in state control, so they could continue to hold he organisation at gunpoint.

They have continued to argue for wage increases, even though it was seriously reducing Ireland's competiveness, and have done so regardless of sustainability. This continues to today, and I blame them for artificially inflating wages, and diminishing any good name of management.

Elected or No...O Conner is a tool. He believes in complete state ownership...and has widely criticised the entrance of Ryanair into the aviation market. As I have mentioned, he has been celebrating the purported demise of neo liberalism, rather then coming up with any solutions. He does nothing for Ireland

JO'C is a member of the labour party, so save the red scare nonsense. He criticised Ryanairs employment rghts record (imagine that, from a union...), not the idea of Ryanair.

Seems to me that your objection to JO'C and SIPTU is simply that they are effective in getting what they want for their members.

OhNoYouDidn't

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think it's only pre-1995 Civil Servants that pay the reduced rate of PRSI (they're not totally exempt). And, their salary scale is less than post-1995 civil servants, because of this.

If you put them on full rate, wouldn't that mean that that they'd then also be entitled to Social Welfare medical, dental, optical and pension benefits and would have to be paid the same as the post 1995 staff?

.... as I said earlier, heaven forbid they think their reactionary guff through....

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

.... as I said earlier, heaven forbid they think their reactionary guff through....

LOL, Yep, give them pay increases, that is what we need.

Heaven forbid economics would come into it.

Boggle

Seems to me that your objection to JO'C and SIPTU is simply that they are effective in getting what they want for their members.

No, its that the only thing they care about is money and also that they see partnership as a one way street.


I notice you'd no reply to my last post - why would you when your argument can be simplified into:
- when things are good we want more
- when things are bad we want ...errrr... more!!

You never commented on how much more responsibility the public sector must take for the mess we are in also - why would you though??

(PS RTE is a state owned media also and how much hype did they add to the property market? Oh wait, in a FF world, he who pays the piper calls the tune!)

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

JO'C is a member of the labour party, so save the red scare nonsense. He criticised Ryanairs employment rghts record (imagine that, from a union...), not the idea of Ryanair.

Seems to me that your objection to JO'C and SIPTU is simply that they are effective in getting what they want for their members.

I think Unions will have a far harder time getting their demands from now on.

ManFromAtlantis

they are not elecetd by the general public and certainly dont talk for me. they should not be there.

OhNoYouDidn't

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

they are not elecetd by the general public and certainly dont talk for me. they should not be there.

Where is 'there'?

El Stuntman

might be OT but why don't we just 'benchmark' public salaries to an average of the Eurozone's?

I'd quite like to see the numbers on this if anyone can work their way through Eurostat (I can't)

gnxx

This is a very clever idea.

Not a chance of it happening though.

El Stuntman wrote: »

might be OT but why don't we just 'benchmark' public salaries to an average of the Eurozone's?

I'd quite like to see the numbers on this if anyone can work their way through Eurostat (I can't)

OhNoYouDidn't

El Stuntman wrote: »

might be OT but why don't we just 'benchmark' public salaries to an average of the Eurozone's?

I'd quite like to see the numbers on this if anyone can work their way through Eurostat (I can't)

Would you be willing to benchmark private sector pay too?