Interclub Countdown - what's your club doing?

ShriekingSheet

Barton Cup, Metro Cup and the Mixed Foursomes first rounds are all kicking off in about 9 weeks time. Other interclub competitons such as Junior and Senior Cup will follow later in the summer.

I know anicdotally that some clubs have been preparing their teams since the depth of winter. Panels have already been chosen and managers have been organising practice matches. Most other clubs might not have chosen managers yet, or put sheets up for members to sign-up for selection.

Different clubs approach the cups and sheilds with varying degrees of seriousness. It certainly does not always follow that the most prepared clubs win through the first few rounds easily.

What's your club doing?



Here's a quick guide to interclub golf for those not so familar with it. Note that the below list has some specifics for Leinster/Dublin.

Event..................................Handicap.......................Format

Leinster Fourball Trophy.............18+...........................Fourball Matchplay
Pierce Purcell Sheild..................12+...........................Foursomes Stroke Play & Match Play
Metro/Prov Towns Cup................9+...........................Singles Match Play
Jimmy Bruen Sheild.....................6+...........................Foursomes Stroke Play & Match Play
Junior Cup................................5+...........................Singles Stroke Play & Match Play
Irish Mixed Foursomes......19 (combined min).................Foursomes Match Play
Barton Cup.....................14 (combined min).................Foursomes Match Play
Senior Cup............................Scratch........................Singles Match Play
Barton Sheild.........................Scratch........................Foursomes Stroke Play & Match Play

PhilipMarlowe

The Metropolitan Cup is mirrored by the Provincial Towns Cup for the rest of Leinster outside of Dublin.

Sandwich

Nothing.

Which I think is about right. Its not a team game and 'team practice' is just another game of golf. Best to just pick the most inform players come the day. But its probably fun for some clubs to 'take it seriously' etc and have panels, trials with different partners, etc. If they enjoy it let them do it.

madds

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

What's your club doing?

I'm looking after our Pierce Purcell team this year. Qualifying round is on in Westmanstown on May 16th.

My plan is to get a dump of all the guys who had hcaps from 12-15 last year and identify those who have made themselves available for inter-club comps before and also those who I know can play to their hcaps and would be a good addition to the team.

Next I'll pop the requisite form on the notice board asking members to add their names should they be interested in playing. I'll also outline on the form that it will be my intention to have at least one trial session and pick the form players (i.e. I'll be keeping my eye on singles cards returned in the weeks leading up to May 16th).

As the PP is a foursomes competition its very important that the combinations click and that will be foremost in my thoughts when picking my pairings.

I'm looking forward to it.

ShriekingSheet

Sandwich wrote: »

Nothing.

Its not a team game and 'team practice' is just another game of golf. Best to just pick the most inform players come the day.

Eh... Pierce Purcell, Jimmy Bruen, Barton Cup, Barton Sheild and the Mixed are all foursome competitions, which is very much a team game. And it's definitely not a format guys would play very regularly.

Picking in-form individuals is an obvious necessity but every club in Ireland has plenty of inform individuals. Would you not agree that picking the compatible pairs, ensuring they play a bit of golf together if they haven't already, organising friendly matches between your pairs and familarising them with the course they will be competing on is a big advantage?

I take your point for a singles team - but that's only 3 out of the 9. Fair enough if a club chooses not to put much by way of prepartion into interclub golf because it takes time and effort, but I don't see how you can say it's of no real benefit.

JCDUB

In Forrest Little I know the winter league is used as an opportunity to give players some matchplay experience early in the year while also giving the inter-club managers an insight into who is in form.

Our format is fourball matchplay in the qualifying round (2matches), with the pairs divided up according to handicap, so you should be playing with somebody within roughly two shots of you.

This allows managers to get an idea of similar handicap pairings who perform well together, although obviously in some of the inter-club comps the handicap levels in pairings are not necessarily that close to each other.

I reckon the winter league thing would be of more interest to the higher handicap team managers though, as the managers of the lower guys would have a fair idea of their potentials throughout the year (as there is obviously a much smaller pool, and they are prob off low single figs and would be playing with their pool regularly.)

We also arranged in the last few years practice days in the academy in Carton House for our Barton Shield and Junior/Senior Cup lads, although who knows if this will be done this year what with the financial abyss we are all looking into:eek:

That's basically it, apart form managers putting up notices inviting people who are interested to apply and arranging practice matches etc. which I'd imagine is done in every club.

george67

In wicklow they run a garden of Ireland comp same rules as Barton Cup except 6 (3 home 3 away ) matches and on a points league , 1 point for each match all matches to be played to a finish (no halves). It's a winter pratice/prelim to Barton Cup.

p.s how come all trails are held in a hurricane .

ShriekingSheet

george67 wrote: »

In wicklow they run a garden of Ireland comp same rules as Barton Cup except 6 (3 home 3 away ) matches and on a points league , 1 point for each match all matches to be played to a finish (no halves). It's a winter pratice/prelim to Barton Cup.

p.s how come all trails are held in a hurricane .

What clubs play in that?

george67

this year there are 10 clubs from wicklow in 2 groups . group 1 killcoole, boystown, wicklow, rathsallagh and baltinglass.
group 2 arklow, coollattin, glenmalure, kellerig and djouce. i'm a member of arklow and we play this sat against coollattin (weather permitting) i,m on team for that match

george67

sorry a point for a win and a half point for drawn match , i was mixing up with provincial towns rules

ShriekingSheet

george67 wrote: »

this year there are 10 clubs from wicklow in 2 groups . group 1 killcoole, boystown, wicklow, rathsallagh and baltinglass.
group 2 arklow, coollattin, glenmalure, kellerig and djouce. i'm a member of arklow and we play this sat against coollattin (weather permitting) i,m on team for that match

Wow, that's a seriously cool little set-up for the pre-season.

george67

yeah only prob is the weather , and the lack of swing mechanics with the cold

george67

what club are you in

Myksyk

Sandwich wrote: »

Its not a team game and 'team practice' is just another game of golf. Best to just pick the most inform players come the day.

We should forward this asap to Monty. Based on form we'll probably do best with Paddy H and Sergio together. And of course Mickelson and Woods will probably be a no-brainer for the Yanks.

thegen

Shriekingsheet may want to get a little pre seasom comp going near his club, as one of the "new" managers this season!!!!!

ShriekingSheet

thegen wrote: »

Shriekingsheet may want to get a little pre seasom comp going near his club, as one of the "new" managers this season!!!!!

Yes I am giving team organisation a try for the first time this year but I'd also rather not have my personal or club details posted on the board so shurrrup whoever you are

...and if you've signed up for my panel, consider yourself cut

thegen

Shriek, does this mean im cut from the panel?????????????????????

ShriekingSheet

thegen wrote: »

Shriek, does this mean im cut from the panel?????????????????????

No, that was a joke.

thegen

Cheers, looking forward to getting to play some golf if weather ever picks up. Saw your other post on the european and have to agree, i played it in October in benine conditions and it was wonderful, playeing really well managed 34pts

PhilipMarlowe

Oh to be famous enough to have a stalker....

george67

not a job i'd like to have ,have the americans changed their format again?

thegen

Licksy, no not a stalker just a panel member trying to lick up to the manager

george67

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yes I am giving team organisation a try for the first time this year but I'd also rather not have my personal or club details posted on the board so shurrrup whoever you are

...and if you've signed up for my panel, consider yourself cut

i see why you would'nt give club name i managed last year and its an experience mostly very welcoming on away matches and good crack after on 19th
what comp are you in and best of luck

ShriekingSheet

george67 wrote: »

i see why you would'nt give club name i managed last year and its an experience mostly very welcoming on away matches and good crack after on 19th
what comp are you in and best of luck

Cheers George,

Yeah I'm looking forward to it. Won't be doing anything fancy but I think there are a few little organisational aspects that don't take much time or effort on anyone's part but can make a big difference.

It seems to me that, maybe aside from Senior Cup and Barton Sheild, over-prepairing can be as bad as not preparing at all.

JMB88

Our Senior Cup and Barton Shield panels have all been giving Driving Range cards ... which can be used twice a week free of charge and also a singles matchplay has been arranged where each panelist plays each other once on a away course (Of their choice) and the club part pays for the green fee.

ShriekingSheet

JMB88 wrote: »

Our Senior Cup and Barton Shield panels have all been giving Driving Range cards ... which can be used twice a week free of charge and also a singles matchplay has been arranged where each panelist plays each other once on a away course (Of their choice) and the club part pays for the green fee.

That's really good.

See, you can do that when you're talking about Senior players around a scratch handicap because they're more likely to be used to regular practice and know how to practice well.

george67

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Cheers George,

Yeah I'm looking forward to it. Won't be doing anything fancy but I think there are a few little organisational aspects that don't take much time or effort on anyone's part but can make a big difference.

It seems to me that, maybe aside from Senior Cup and Barton Sheild, over-prepairing can be as bad as not preparing at all.

it's strange sometimes you're best players loose and your worst players win really well it,s all on the day really .

it's prob not the low handicaps that need the pratice, a lot is how they feel on the day, the higher handicaps pierce purcell and jimmy bruen prob need it more a lot to be thinking about in foursomes apart from your swing

george67

JMB88 wrote: »

Our Senior Cup and Barton Shield panels have all been giving Driving Range cards ... which can be used twice a week free of charge and also a singles matchplay has been arranged where each panelist plays each other once on a away course (Of their choice) and the club part pays for the green fee.

a great way to build a team when the weather is bad builds spirit aswell

golf_caddy

JMB88 wrote: »

Our Senior Cup and Barton Shield panels have all been giving Driving Range cards ... which can be used twice a week free of charge and also a singles matchplay has been arranged where each panelist plays each other once on a away course (Of their choice) and the club part pays for the green fee.

Why these two team panels.... doesnt the other panles of your club teams get the same treatment? surely the higher handicapped golfers need the practice more than these low handicap players

JMB88

golf_caddy wrote: »

Why these two team panels.... doesnt the other panles of your club teams get the same treatment? surely the higher handicapped golfers need the practice more than these low handicap players

No disrespect to the other inter club competitions but Barton Shield and Senior Cup are the two most prestegious ... some of the younger lads (who are expected to come down quickly) that are on the Junior Cup panel are also given the range cards and are included in the matchplay.

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

Why these two team panels.... doesnt the other panles of your club teams get the same treatment? surely the higher handicapped golfers need the practice more than these low handicap players

I alluded to this point earlier.

Guys close to scratch, by defeinition, practice regularly and know how to practice, the latter being more important. Good Barton Cup players of 8 or 9 are less likely to put so much work in. Yet they are on the team because they perform well in medals, club matchplay etc - they achieve these good performances without as much practice as the lower guys.

As a team organiser, it's these same performances you want them to turn out on the day, and breaking their routine by encouraging hitting more balls, which for someone not used to hitting lots of balls is likely not to equate to quality practice, is not a good idea in my experience.

Giving a higher handicap player serious pro-treatment prior to a big day is more likely to sh*t them up because this kind of "preparation" is so alien to them, you just put them out of their comfort zone.

Senior players are well used to hitting lots of balls, they most likely do it anyway prior to the South of Ireland etc and know how to use their practice to improve. Giving them range cards is just saving them money really.

For higher guys, IMO you're better off doing things like a little group session with the club pro on short game. You might encourage the guys to add 15 mins of chipping and putting before each weekend comp they play in the run up to the Cup match. Also, organising practice matches and forging partnerships so you have stronger pairings are all more appropriate IMO.

Paulusmaximus

I've been asked to manage the Jimmy Bruen in my club this year and my initial thoughts for trials and practises are

People don’t like coming up to hit every 2nd shot for 9/12 holes midweek

Form is going to change and picking partnerships and trying to stick with them doesn’t really work

If you do pick partnerships and 3 -4 people are missing you end up with people playing with someone that they won’t have any chance of playing with in the event

Obviously the combinations for it are the following:

6 + 11
6 + 12
7 + 11
7 + 10
8 + 10
8 + 9
9 + 9

If we pick 4-6 people of each handicap we’d have a panel of approx 30ish and you’d have loads of potential combinations. I’d let them play singles in practice but do scoring based on fairways hit, greens hit etc, rather than just score on a hole. I’d put them in groups whereby each player could form a partnership with 2 of the others, e.g two 6’s play with an 11 and a 12. That way they are playing constantly with the people who they could be paired with the comp and they are getting to know each other.
I think too much emphasis is put on trying to form partnerships and knowing each others games. I think if you pick two people playing well and they get on well together the pairing will fall into place. There will be some foursome practice along the way though

golf_caddy

my point is more about club finances in these dire economic times.... :mad:
all members pay the same subs ( some clubs waive fees for scratch golfers ).....
so why shouldn't we all be entitled to the same privileges...;)

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

my point is more about club finances in these dire economic times.... :mad:
all members pay the same subs ( some clubs waive fees for scratch golfers ).....
so why shouldn't we all be entitled to the same privileges...;)

Because it would be as likely to have a negative impact on your performance in interclub as a positive one, as I explained in my post.

More practice does not = better performance when you're talking about guys who are not used to practicing and are not familiar with getting the quality/quantity ratio right.

Also, obviously everyone can't have the same privelege because it would be financially impossible. If you want to argue that if we can't all have it, no one should have it fire away but I completely disagree.

You also seem to have some bee in your bonnet with scratch golfers getting concessions in general. I'm not a scratch golfer but I fully appreciate the effort, time and extra money it takes to compete at that level, versus playing more socially off say an 8 handicap.

golf_caddy

Nope .... just want a level playing field...

it should be privilege enough to put on the jersey.... without getting compensated for it.
Scratch golfers usually go to the range anyway so why pay for them to do it out of club finances.... better to put that money into improving club facilities for all

PhilipMarlowe

Then you could argue (as some do) against any money being spent on teams. There are people who pay their sub and play their golf and have no interest in the team aspect of it and resent all spending on club teams out of 'their money'.

golf_caddy

right on... especially when the club spends in excess of €30,000 on inter-club matches for very little return....usually knocked out at first round.... god help us if we ever get to a final

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

Nope .... just want a level playing field...

it should be privilege enough to put on the jersey.... without getting compensated for it.
Scratch golfers usually go to the range anyway so why pay for them to do it out of club finances.... better to put that money into improving club facilities for all

It is a level playing field. If you went out and maximised your talent, putting effort and time into your game, you too would be supported by the club.

The "compensation" that scratch golfers or team players get is frankly feck all compared to the effort they dedicate to competing. They go to the practice green after the round when you go to the bar.

I was in a club with an extremely highly achieving amateur (even better than Gorfield!) and the members actually had a whip around for him to send him to different amateur events, no one complained when his bare minimum food, travel and accom were paid by the club for the championships and when they looked out the window at him practicing away, while they sat at the bar, they admired him. And over time his achievments excited them members and put the club on the map. The guy played with and practiced beside the members and juniors who learned a lot from him.

This kind of scenario (and it doesn't have to involve a +3 golfer but in general) has been part of amateur golf for hundreds of years. 99% of us play socially and for the enjoyment. When someone in your club falls into that 1% or even just wants to have a go at Senior Cup, I think any good club will get behind and support that person or team in some way. Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard complain about a f*cking few euro to help those ambitious guys out.

golf_caddy

I don't call €30,000 a few euro .... I call it sand for the bunkers , wages for an extra greenkeeper, money for tee markers,,,, i could go on...

PhilipMarlowe

Do you put yourself forward for any teams?

golf_caddy

I dont get asked ......

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

I don't call €30,000 a few euro .... I call it sand for the bunkers , wages for an extra greenkeeper, money for tee markers,,,, i could go on...

Trying to shock people with a big figure to back up your argument is petty. €30,000 is proabably €5 a month per member.

You can argue the opportunity cost of all club expenses, it's subjective. What's objective is the fact that virtually all clubs, including yours, have been competing in interclub competition for generations. The club was like that when you paid your money to join. Financing interclub golf is part of what you signed up for. If you see fit to go against tradition and believe your own opinion is the right one, convince others and instigate a change at your club. It would be as simple as getting a motion passed at your AGM.
But I think you will have trouble finding supporters.

Graeme1982 is not originally from Ireland but began the game in a diffent (and also golf mad) country. We don't know any different, but he has commented how good our interclub set-up is and what a great job the GUI do providing the platform for the most exciting days many of us will have in golf, whether we're Best Cup or Barton Cup.

Anyone from scratch to 20 can get themselves on a team with some effort. If you don't want to, that's fine. But to begrudge others the opportunity and support is selfish and shows a lack of appreciation for the traditions of amateur golf IMO.

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

I dont get asked ......

No one "gets asked" in any club I know. There's a sheet that goes up and you sign-up and make yourself available for selection. You then might do a trial or be chosen on the basis of form etc.

If your club doesn't do this, and asks only select people in private maybe bring it up with your committee because it should be an inclusive process.

gorfield

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

It is a level playing field. If you went out and maximised your talent, putting effort and time into your game, you too would be supported by the club.

The "compensation" that scratch golfers or team players get is frankly feck all compared to the effort they dedicate to competing. They go to the practice green after the round when you go to the bar.

I was in a club with an extremely highly achieving amateur (even better than Gorfield!) and the members actually had a whip around for him to send him to different amateur events, no one complained when his bare minimum food, travel and accom were paid by the club for the championships and when they looked out the window at him practicing away, while they sat at the bar, they admired him. And over time his achievments excited them members and put the club on the map. The guy played with and practiced beside the members and juniors who learned a lot from him.

This kind of scenario (and it doesn't have to involve a +3 golfer but in general) has been part of amateur golf for hundreds of years. 99% of us play socially and for the enjoyment. When someone in your club falls into that 1% or even just wants to have a go at Senior Cup, I think any good club will get behind and support that person or team in some way. Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard complain about a f*cking few euro to help those ambitious guys out.

Hey fella, see what i mean???????? A guy has a chance of the big time and all the jealous old gits want is a chance to knock him......Im sure there was a good few of these in stackstown years ago when Padraig was being looked after by the club?? And these same fellas prob shook his hand and toasted his success since......Ive been given expenses previously and it makes a huge difference to some people and allows them to perform without financial worry. Im managing the jimmy bruen team this year in my club, and its been 3 years since a junior has played on the team,its also been 3 years since the club got past the first rd........ I plan on using some of the younger lads on it as they are rapid improvers who are capable way beyond their handicaps. There will be many begrudgers but these begrudgers will show up for their free meal and drinks if the team is successful.........

ShriekingSheet

gorfield wrote: »

Hey fella, see what i mean???????? A guy has a chance of the big time and all the jealous old gits want is a chance to knock him........

Yeah but, you do get that it's not me who's knocking you?

golf_caddy

As someone says "a change is coming" and when it starts there will be no stopping it.... clubs need to kop themselves on and figure out they are running themselves into the gound by supporting these inter-club competitions.....

ShriekingSheet

golf_caddy wrote: »

As someone says "a change is coming" and when it starts there will be no stopping it.... clubs need to kop themselves on and figure out they are running themselves into the gound by supporting these inter-club competitions.....

That may be the case. At least someone will be happy when that day comes.

gorfield

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yeah but, you do get that it's not me who's knocking you?

Oh i know that im just giving examples of the typical carpark members we deal with.......

Mister Sifter

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Graeme1982 is not originally from Ireland but began the game in a diffent (and also golf mad) country. We don't know any different, but he has commented how good our interclub set-up is and what a great job the GUI do providing the platform for the most exciting days many of us will have in golf, whether we're Best Cup or Barton Cup.

Anyone from scratch to 20 can get themselves on a team with some effort. If you don't want to, that's fine. But to begrudge others the opportunity and support is selfish and shows a lack of appreciation for the traditions of amateur golf IMO.

I do indeed think such things about the inter-club. I think it's a fantastic set-up.

I was surprised to see how much it costs to participate mind, when i saw our club accounts for last year. I still think it's worth it though. I've spoke about the set-up here to many back home who are very envious.

My area back home has a regional league, where six players play against 6 from other clubs on Monday nights during the summer. Singles matchplay. It's also fantastic, but it's only the 6 lowest handicaps who get to play. The over 55s have a similar more friendly set up, but for everyone else there's nothing. That for me is the beauty of the cups and shields... everyone has a fair crack at making a team or teams.

Having had a taste of it last year, if i was considering joining a club, i would most likely rule out those that didn't enter team comps. I'm sure there are many more like me too, so for any club paying the 30k or whatever, i'm sure it's money well spent in keeping members at the club.

As for the justification of spending 30k on teams, rather than on bunkers or whatever. It's just my opinion, but i think any well run club will allow for all those things in their budget also. I'd certainly rather see my club putting money into making the club 'a club' (which i think the cups and shields does), rather than gold plated tee markers.

Without wishing to take the thread off-topic, what is the 30K from each club used for? Does it go to the GUI's piggy bank? Are there prizes for the winning teams?

golf_caddy

an integral part of the game used to be the few pints afterwards.:P

PhilipMarlowe

golf_caddy wrote: »

I dont get asked ......

You don't get asked???? You have to put yourself forward man!

Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much or suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
President Theodore Roosevelt
1858 — 1919