Extendable Baton or Non extendable baton.

donvito99

Ok, Gardai have had ASP extendable batons for a while now, yet, on a recent visit to London, I notice that the majority of officers (that I saw) used regular batons. What are the advantages/disadvantages of both?

Obviously, an extendable is good for its length and stores on a belt easily, anymore reasons, for or against?



or a monadnock style one?

pa990

donvito99 wrote: »

A few years back, these (or something similar) were bought. But never issued to gardai.
They were deemed to be to aggressive looking, and didn't suit the cuddly Garda image

ScubaDave

If i recall correctly, the PR 24 is issued in the UK,

pa990

pa990 wrote: »

A few years back, these (or something similar) were bought. But never issued to gardai.
They were deemed to be to aggressive looking, and didn't suit the cuddly Garda image

I heard a rumour that they are still in the Depot...but you know this job and rumours!

djtechnics1210

ERU are issued with monadnock

Trojan911

ScubaDave wrote: »

If i recall correctly, the PR 24 is issued in the UK,

That is what I chose to wear. My theory was, I looks meaner than the ASP, thus reducing confrontations when drawn, it won't jam as it is already fully extended & was heavier if you had to wallop deploy it on a deserved person.

The disadvantage was getting in/out the car. Overall, I would chose it again over the ASP. BTP used the extendeble T-Bar batons. They made a nice Whhhhhhooop sound when it was snapped open.

Whitewater-AGS

PR24 when trained with it correctly can be used as a restraint and allows the user to administer a number of locks. Think i'd still rather have my asp though.

Eru

Well with a standard non extendable you dont need to deploy it so I suppose that saves a little bit of time but beyond that I fail to see any advantage.

Anyway, I still say stun baton!

JonAnderton

Trojan911 wrote: »

That is what I chose to wear. My theory was, I looks meaner than the ASP, thus reducing confrontations when drawn, it won't jam as it is already fully extended & was heavier if you had to wallop deploy it on a deserved person.

The disadvantage was getting in/out the car. Overall, I would chose it again over the ASP. BTP used the extendeble T-Bar batons. They made a nice Whhhhhhooop sound when it was snapped open.

The Arnold baton (straight, acrylic baton) became the standard issue baton prior to the asp. The PR24 was never rolled out across the Met... they are defiantly not currently issued so if they were Met you saw, they were probably the Acrylic Arnolds...

The Met stopped issuing the arnold baton several years ago but recently re introduced it issuing it to all level 2 / TSG officers as serial guvnors are to have it as an official tactical option, and apparently were to start offering a choice at Training school... I think it might have been the fact that every new probationer seemed to have 'aquired' one from somewhere anyways...

BTP now have humongous friction lock batons, I think Monadnock autolocks and a lot of the county mounties have changed over.

As for which is better, I've seen ASP's collapse after the first strike and during a public order situation after waving it about a bit, I drew it back in the classic ready stance to find it shrink into itself, but for plain clothes work, it’s gotta be an ASP.

As stated, th Arnold is more intimidating and more sturdy which is why a lot of uniform officers carry it. I've seen one worn by a bloke in plain clothes once as well... Didn't conceal as well as an ASP!

I used to carry my ASP with me on my belt but if in a car, had the acrylic in the footwell as officially you're only allowed to carry one at a time (the second would be classed as an offensive weapon which you wouldn't officially have lawful authority to carry at that time)

All down to personal choice at the end of the day

Trojan911

JonAnderton wrote: »

The Arnold baton (straight, acrylic baton) became the standard issue baton prior to the asp.

Yes, that's the one.

JonAnderton wrote: »

but for plain clothes work, it’s gotta be an ASP..

There really should be a choice for officers when doing the odd stint of plain clothes. Maybe a pool where one could be signed out if the officer had the acrylic issue.

Out one night as observer in response car, I jumped out & went looking for a recent robbery suspect & walked srtaight into a fella suffering from mental health issues who just went for me. I had no baton as I was plain clothes & couldn't reach my spray as it was in my inner jacket pocket. Luckily I was able to push the emergency button on my PR at give the CAD room my location. He was eventually brought down using spray & sectioned under the MHA.

JonAnderton wrote: »

as officially you're only allowed to carry one at a time (the second would be classed as an offensive weapon which you wouldn't officially have lawful authority to carry at that time)

Same with handcuffs, I used to carry two sets until told otherwise.

mcguiver

Old style wooden was awkward to carry in that silly pocket. I found it hard to jump walls, get through windows etc. plus I couldnt carry it on covert work...i.e. plainclothes.

ASP i find great for being on the belt, I can put it up my slieve if I feel I'm in danger and deploy it quickly without anyone noticing it's in my hand.

I do find the Asp has a more dramatic effect when pulled, the noise, the height etc. and a good lever when trying to restrain someone. I would prefer one of the other style ones that has a release button to retract it, bashing them on the ground looks unproffessional!

sunnyjim

It all boils down to : Are you a grower, or are you a show-er?

Eru

mcguiver wrote: »

I would prefer one of the other style ones that has a release button to retract it, bashing them on the ground looks unproffessional!

Agee with that but I think there was a problem with the button ones when they were tested. Maybe Im wrong

metman

The monadnock autolock has a release button in the base cap and a stupid rubber tip (so as not to cause injury). BTP are issued the 26 inch autolock which is ridiculously large (with added hindi cap) and doesn't lock out solid.....but rather rattles somewhat alarmingly when racked. Not my cup of tea at all.


Autolock minus hindi cap.

480905

ScubaDave wrote: »

If i recall correctly, the PR 24 is issued in the UK,

Irish Prison Service using the PR24 model for a number of years now. Solid baton an excellent piece of kit ,while the extendible model wasn't exectly reliable as it wasn't quite up to the abuse given out during evaluation for issue.

pingu2008

ScubaDave

The auld bit of wood! You cant go wrong!

metman

ScubaDave wrote: »

The auld bit of wood! You cant go wrong!

*awaits inevitable deadwood joke*

the locust

I have't known anything other than the ASP the 21 inch and 26 inch. No complaints. As mentioned its great for covert use, hiding it up the sleeve etc... even if someone sees it the majority of civvies don't know what it is until you've opened it. And! I'd much rather strike someone with it in closed mode anyways as its just unexpected and will put someone down.

My skipper got his own Monadnock. Due to more internal parts i heard Monadnocks are more prone to breaking? But i never used one to comment.

I heard the old commissioner conroy was against the american style (pr24 shape) as he had visions of mules puttin it between someones legs and yankin it upwards!

If trained correctly there are much more things you can do with the PR 24 style baton - martial arts wise, locks & restraints etc...

But as the average mule isn't a martial arts black belt - the ASP is the simple and easy to use murphys law choice.

deadwood

ScubaDave wrote: »

The auld bit of wood! You cant go wrong!

metman wrote: »

*awaits inevitable deadwood joke*

the locust wrote: »

I have't known anything other than the ASP the 21 inch and 26 inch. No complaints.

...he had visions of mules puttin it between someones legs and yankin it upwards!

There's all the material I need!

pingu2008 wrote: »

Now, kids.

That's a baton.

Asp me h:eek:le.

Eru

ScubaDave wrote: »

The auld bit of wood! You cant go wrong!

the only person I know that stands by the wood is also the only person that never had to use it on someone.

Having seen the wood bounce of people with barely a flicker from them Im gonna keep the eye watering asp.

Esel

Hoary old chestnut brought to mind by recent posts in this thread:

There was a policeman from Clapham Junction,
Whose tool it just would not function.
So for the rest of his life
He fooled his wife
With a snot on the top of his truncheon.

I'll get me greatcoat.

ScubaDave

The wood Leaves less marks!

ScubaDave

deadwood wrote: »

Asp me h:eek:le.

Whatever floats ur boat! ;)

kwalsh000

From talking with a friend of mine in LA about the asp and pr24 is it? It seems that they are given a choice of which to use when finishing their training and most seem to go for the pr24 due to the extra restraint abilities and general usefulness of it. That being said its just word of mouth, have never used one myself

the locust

Wasnt the whole idea of the metal extendable batons vs traditional wooden truncheon that it appears safer and when used and is more efficient/effective:

Its only takes one or two good solid lashes with an asp to get someone to 'submit' rather than 9-10 repetitive lashes with the wooden truncheon? (i.e. reclaim the streets)

metman

kwalsh000 wrote: »

most seem to go for the pr24 due to the extra restraint abilities and general usefulness of it. That being said its just word of mouth, have never used one myself

BTP used to carry the PR-24 here and a friend of mine is an officer safety instructor with them. Per him the whole 'locks and defensive-usefulness' of the PR-24 is a complete red-herring. Unless ample training time was allocated to recruit classes (which is wasn't) it was impossible to build anything better than basic skills with the weapon, let alone build competency in using it for locks, arm-bars etc.

donvito99

104208275_697af46b1b_o[1]2.jpg

Notice different batons to old table leg and ASP. This is during the Love Ulster riots of 2006.

Is this the Public Order Unit? If so, roughly how many members do they have?

edit: Have resized em, click on links at top and bottom.

donvito99

Also, do the Guards have a water cannon, or is this one borrowed from the North? Note: The Irish registration plate, behind ur man with the pink kaks.

metman

Could you not have found a bigger picture? :rolleyes:

donvito99

metman wrote: »

Could you not have found a bigger picture? :rolleyes:

Ya, when I was highlighting the batons the pic was nice and small, then I post it and BOOM!

the locust

Im not 100% but think thier dutch plates, the PSNI got it off the Netherlands and the Gardai get it on loan for special events

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

Notice different batons to old table leg and ASP. This is during the Love Ulster riots of 2006.

Is this the Public Order Unit? If so, roughly how many members do they have?

This is the Public Order Unit. The baton that you see is their primary baton for public order duty. They can only draw it and use it once an order from the member in charge has been given. (Open to correction on that though).

They still carry the standard ASP which is a personal protection baton. They can draw this without been ordered but the usual rules apply to it's use.

Whitewater-AGS

foreign wrote: »

They still carry the standard ASP which is a personal protection baton. They can draw this without been ordered but the usual rules apply to it's use.

Well almost standard they are given the 26" asp where as the rest of us have the 21" asp

cushtac

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Well almost standard they are given the 26" asp where as the rest of us have the 21" asp

You can have a 26" one if you're prepared to go to Santry & swap your current baton for it.

deadwood

Now we know where the met got their Gay Pride flag for the station!