When will Greystones harbour be finished?

ciaran67

Anyone know roughly when?

ta

Pablo Sanchez

Think it will be about 5 years untill its all the elements are complete.
The harbour and some of the club houses should be built within 1.5-2 years.

ciaran67

Pablo Sanchez wrote: »

Think it will be about 5 years untill its all the elements are complete.
The harbour and some of the club houses should be built within 1.5-2 years.

Thanks mate. Was sitting in the beach house yesterday wondering how long it would take.

Bart Wilson

ciaran67 wrote: »

Anyone know roughly when?

ta

The word on the street is that Sispar have run out of funding for the project and that it is to be suspended indefinately. Looks like the harbour will never be finished now.:eek:

Alun

Bart Wilson wrote: »

The word on the street is that Sispar have run out of funding for the project and that it is to be suspended indefinately. Looks like the harbour will never be finished now.:eek:

I doubt it very much with all the preparation work that's been done already.
Look at all those concrete blocks ready in the staging area for instance. I'm assuming that the reason there doesn't seem to be much progress is that they need to get every single on of those blocks ready first before they bring in the equipment (floating cranes) to put them in place, so that they can do that part of the operation in one go. It's very often the case with big construction projects like this that nothing appears to be happening for ages, but then all of a sudden a lot of apparent progress is made, whereas in fact there's been quite a lot of preliminary work being done that doesn't have much obvious visual impact to the casual observer.

Bart Wilson

Alun wrote: »

I doubt it very much with all the preparation work that's been done already.
Look at all those concrete blocks ready in the staging area for instance. I'm assuming that the reason there doesn't seem to be much progress is that they need to get every single on of those blocks ready first before they bring in the equipment (floating cranes) to put them in place, so that they can do that part of the operation in one go. It's very often the case with big construction projects like this that nothing appears to be happening for ages, but then all of a sudden a lot of apparent progress is made, whereas in fact there's been quite a lot of preliminary work being done that doesn't have much obvious visual impact to the casual observer.

But we are in the mist of an economic depression with no demand for property and no funding available. The development as costed back in 2006 during the property bubble could not possibly be a going concern. No, I fear the talk is true and the project is finished.:eek:

mikedragon32

Or perhaps you're trolling?

Care to divulge your source?

It looks to me like yet another development thread is being derailed...

Tabnabs

Bart Wilson wrote: »

But we are in the mist of an economic depression

I think the only mist here is in front of your eyes :rolleyes:

As the previous poster said, it's not always readily apparent that a big job is on track and going well (as Greystones harbour is...).

Mitch Connor

Bart Wilson wrote: »

But we are in the mist of an economic depression with no demand for property and no funding available. The development as costed back in 2006 during the property bubble could not possibly be a going concern. No, I fear the talk is true and the project is finished.:eek:

of course there is demand for property - its affording the property that is the issue.

RAMPAGE1

Bart Wilson wrote: »

But we are in the mist of an economic depression with no demand for property and no funding available. The development as costed back in 2006 during the property bubble could not possibly be a going concern. No, I fear the talk is true and the project is finished.:eek:

I don't remember Malahide Marina being built during the celtic tiger and the difference that has made to malahide is huge

slickmcvic

a friend of mine that works for sisk has told be the apertments arent goin ahead for now anyways

mikedragon32

Rumours are a dime a dozen. If there is nothing concrete (no pun intended) no point in keeping the thread open...

ciaran67

slickmcvic wrote: »

a friend of mine that works for sisk has told be the apertments arent goin ahead for now anyways

Houses, smouses... WE WANT MORE PUBS!

santo

I heard that the project might be on the rocks too. Just rumours at the moment though...

Source:
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15879&sid=673d478513253b9e884e0964f3f7a103

future_plans

I agree that rumors are just rumors and I certainly hope that's all they are. Most likely the truth is somewhere in the middle. There is little point in the developers motoring ahead with the apartments, so it could be very tru that they won't be built within the initial time scale. However, it's very unlikely that the harbour part wouldn't be completed in the mean time. Perhaps they have tightened the belts a bit on the project and hence that is why there are fewer people working, etc. All speculation though!!

SJPRogue

I hope that they have to scale back the project.
Greystones harbour used to be a great amenity. It was a nice Victorian harbour that people used to be able to swim in and that fishermen were actually able to use for their fishing boats.

Then they (thcounty council) towed in the round base of a lighthouse and put it at the end of the pier, the consequence being that the harbour started silting up, eventually becoming unusable.

They should improve the old harbour, dredge it and fix the piers. It's always been nice coming into Greystones from Bray and seeing the old harbour there. It's a pity they are putting in this developer-led characterless, modern concrete thing instead.

If one good thing comes from the recession, hopefully it will be a money-shortage driven rethink of the project. Maybe then they'll take into account the 6000 planning objectors' concerns who were ignored the first time round.

thecommander

SJPRogue wrote: »

I hope that they have to scale back the project.
Greystones harbour used to be a great amenity. It was a nice Victorian harbour that people used to be able to swim in and that fishermen were actually able to use for their fishing boats.

Then they (thcounty council) towed in the round base of a lighthouse and put it at the end of the pier, the consequence being that the harbour started silting up, eventually becoming unusable.

They should improve the old harbour, dredge it and fix the piers. It's always been nice coming into Greystones from Bray and seeing the old harbour there. It's a pity they are putting in this developer-led characterless, modern concrete thing instead.

If one good thing comes from the recession, hopefully it will be a money-shortage driven rethink of the project. Maybe then they'll take into account the 6000 planning objectors' concerns who were ignored the first time round.

This project will go ahead from what I know, and the only delays to it are being caused by the weather.

Bart Wilson

thecommander wrote: »

This project will go ahead from what I know, and the only delays to it are being caused by the weather.

The weather over the the Winter has generally been fantastic - dry, cold and frosty. How can the weather be used as an excuse for the major delays with the project?



The storm of the worldwide economic recession is impacting on all development projects in the country. Throughout the land building sites are being abandoned by developers who have run out of funding from the once generous banks. Why would the Greystones Harbour project be any different?:eek:

thecommander

Bart Wilson wrote: »

The weather over the the Winter has generally been fantastic - dry, cold and frosty.

The build of this project didn't start in the winter. There were huge storms & sea swells before the winter that delayed the project by weeks

Huntthe

I have many good memories down at the old harbour but I have an open mind as to whether the project will improve the area aesthetically and as an amenity.

However, nobody can tell me that putting in a few extra sets of lights and a one way system is going to remedy the traffic situation once the project is completed. The volume of traffic will simply be too great.This leads me to believe that a new road will be built down across the green belt from the top of windgates to the harbour as no other option will be available.

Bart Wilson

thecommander wrote: »

The build of this project didn't start in the winter. There were huge storms & sea swells before the winter that delayed the project by weeks

Actually the build actually started about a year ago and worringly they seem to have very little to show for it so far.

With all the experts at their disposal one would have expected that Sispar would have managed at least get their breakwater engineering correct. Alas no! It would appear than a mild summer 'storm' was enough to wreck their plans by shifting the blocks in the wall. I really do hope that at the very least they will still manage to construct an acceptable breakwater and marina.

Bart Wilson

After 16 months work the harbour project is now about 5 months behind schedule. The main contractor has dissapeared off the site leaving a subcontractor to carry out the marine works. This has raised significant fears among locals that the project may in fact be abandoned.:eek:

The concerns of local people have been put to Wicklow County Council by Councillor Tom Fortune in a letter to Sean Quirke as follows:

Dear Sean,

There is a lot of concern and frustration amongst residents concerning the Harbour Project and the management of same. At their request I met with them during the week, where they raised a number of issues.. I have set these out below and I would be obliged if you would respond at your earliest convenience.

Hours of operation.
It is their understanding that the planning permission granted by An Bord Pleanala limited the hours during which construction work can take place. However, they tell me that work regularly begins before 7am and continues until as late as 2am. I have witnessed work being carried on at 11.30pm. In addition this takes place without notification to the residents. I appreciate that the planning permission may allow some leeway with regard to working hours.

Can you therefore confirm to me on their behalf:
• Whether flexibility in working hours is permitted and what is the extent of this flexibility
• Under what circumstances is it permitted
• Whether the local authority must authorise any variations and if so what process must be completed.
• Why it is not possible to advise the local residents and agree a schedule with them in advance.

Coastal erosion.
It is the residents understanding that the reports prepared for the Oral Hearings confirmed that the installation of significant North breakwater would generate erosion of beach material and that a beach nourishment program would be needed to sustain the beach. Local residents are of the opinion that this process is already quite advanced as a result of the construction of the temporary breakwater which has been in place for some time now. The residents believe they have not received a satisfactory response.

Can you please advise:
• Whether any erosion has taken place
• Whether the material put in place on the North Beach about a year ago is still in situ.
They would also appreciate if you would advise me of what, if any, surveys have been carried out to support your response and indeed would appreciate if you would supply me with a copy of the reports on those surveys.

Delay in construction.
At a recent Liaison Meeting it was confirmed that the project is four months behind schedule, and it was also stated that this time gap would be ‘caught up’, can you advise how this catch up will be achieved? And also can the residents have details.

Hoarding
Residents say that at the oral hearing it was stated that the hoarding around the old harbour would be in place for 20 months. Based on that timescale it would be expected that it would be removed in August 2009. The residents are asking for confirmation that this deadline will be adhered to?

Roads & Footpaths
The road is in a terrible condition. There are pot-holes; it is especially very dangerous at the railway bridge. The footpaths are ruined with silt and are dangerous. The shores on the road are also full of silt as are the shores at the homes of the Bertram families. This needs to be dealt with immediately.

Completion of the project
There is general anxiety that the project be completed on time, so driven by this desire, the current economic climate has raised very serious concerns among a large number of the residents in Greystones about the future of this project. While they for the most part objected to the scale of this project, have come to accept it as a reality. However there are now great fears that the project will not be completed.

Specifically they have two concerns:
• That the engineering firm (Sisk) will run out of funds to complete the project as many developers have done around the country
• The success of the project is dependent on the sale of some 340 apartments and commercial units. Clearly there is no hope of selling any of these in the immediate future with house sales in the country at a virtual standstill. In the medium to long term sales may be possible but these will almost certainly be at a greatly reduced price.

There is concern that either of these factors could lead to the abandonment of the project, with Greystones being left with a major eyesore perhaps for many years to come. This is an outcome no-one wants, irrespective of their views on the project.
The residents believe you must have discussed the above concerns or something similar with the developers. They would be obliged if you would come back to me regarding these concerns.

Thank you and I look forward to a response to these serious issues on behalf of the residents.

Regards

________________________
Cllr Tom Fortune

Huntthe

Is anyone surprised ?

fishdog

The main contractor has dissapeared off the site leaving a subcontractor to carry out the marine works.

Are you sure???

work regularly begins before 7am and continues until as late as 2am.

I think we have all seen this. At least it speeds up the process.

The success of the project is dependent on the sale of some 340 apartments and commercial units

I may be wrong, but I think the apartments will sell like hot cakes. There is still money around and they will have sea views etc.

The commercial units will be an issue I think. Greystones and the general area has been awash with empty commercial units for years now.

Is anyone surprised ?

I am surprised TBH

Tabnabs

This isn't a troll!

It strikes me there would be a certain amount of irony if one or other of the developers went bust due to the economic collapse of the construction industry in Ireland and because they were delayed by the vitriolic opposition of the numerous objectors, the harbour was left in a state of upheaval. If they had started two years ago, it would be finished by now (at least the harbour and marina would be up and running).

Huntthe

Dyflin wrote: »

This isn't a troll!

It strikes me there would be a certain amount of irony if one or other of the developers went bust due to the economic collapse of the construction industry in Ireland and because they were delayed by the vitriolic opposition of the numerous objectors, the harbour was left in a state of upheaval. If they had started two years ago, it would be finished by now (at least the harbour and marina would be up and running).

There was a reason for the "numerous objectors", the reason being most people didn't want it, for numerous reasons, one being, that for one reason or another it would take years and wouldn't be finished as promised.

mikedragon32

There's no point arguing about the how or why of when construction started. The simple fact of the matter is that the planning process takes as long as it has to take.

Either side claiming that what they want is what "most people" want has been done to death here and has always led to the inevitable closure of threads relating to development in Greystones, the Harbour in particular (and, by no coincidence, the most bans).

What you call "Vitriolic opposition", Dyflin, others may call "passionate objection".

Now, with all that said, please try to keep any further discussion on the question asked and leave any discussion of the rights and wrongs of the development out of it.

RIRI

Bart Wilson wrote: »

The main contractor has dissapeared off the site leaving a subcontractor to carry out the marine works.

This is completely untrue.

The marina is due to complete by mid summer next year with the retail & residential aspects to follow on from there.

MyPerfectCousin

Originally Posted by Bart Wilson
The main contractor has dissapeared off the site leaving a subcontractor to carry out the marine works.

RIRI wrote: »

This is completely untrue.

The marina is due to complete by mid summer next year with the retail & residential aspects to follow on from there.

It would be helpful if posts that claim to bring unreported news, or which claim to make corrections to wrongly reported information, would cite some kind of source or affiliation.

With neither, it's kind of pointless trying to persuade anyone of your "facts".

Just anything, like, "I heard this from the contractor/a councilor/a harbour resident/a radio news report", would help readers decide if it's worth minding. A link or citation to a published source would obviously be much better, but throw us a bone here. Thanks.

Bart Wilson

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

It would be helpful if posts that claim to bring unreported news, or which claim to make corrections to wrongly reported information, would cite some kind of source or affiliation.

With neither, it's kind of pointless trying to persuade anyone of your "facts".

Just anything, like, "I heard this from the contractor/a councilor/a harbour resident/a radio news report", would help readers decide if it's worth minding. A link or citation to a published source would obviously be much better, but throw us a bone here. Thanks.

The letter from Councillor Tom Fortune to Sean Quirke referred to in my posting was an actual letter. Tom Fortune is the source of the letter! When a reply is eventually received from Sean Quirke perhaps it might throw some light on the mysterious goings on at Greystones Harbour and enlighten everyone as to the future prospects of this hapless badly timed development.

RIRI

I may have mis-read but I believe that I quoted your own words there Bart Wilson and not the body of the letter sent to the council - though I stand open to correction.

The developer has a phone number for information relating to the project and the website is www.greystonesharbour.ie - again I may be wrong but I believe it was here I read the information relating to the timeline, I think it was in the minutes of one of the meetings.

Fiachra2

Unfortunatley it is unwise to assume that the harbour will simply be finished according the original program even though the developers website is giving no information to the contrary.

We cannot assume that the apartments will sell "like hot cakes" as an earlier post put it. If property vaule projections, such as those included in the recent Friends First Economic Outlook report are to be believed it seems fairly certain that they will sell at a much reduced price to that budgeted and that the project will then no longer be financially viable. In this scenario it is not unreasonable to speculate that the project might be abandoned by the developer at some point. This is the issue that Councillor Tom Fortune has raised. He is asking is there a "Plan B" and if so does it include leaving the harbour in a usable and scenic condition.
Regrettably the response from the Council-as quoted in the media-is less than satisfactory in this regard.

danjo

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Unfortunatley it is unwise to assume that the harbour will simply be finished according the original program even though the developers website is giving no information to the contrary.

Just wait for all the political gymnastics from the proponents as we approach the June elections. :mad:

Bart Wilson

Fiachra2 wrote: »

He is asking is there a "Plan B" and if so does it include leaving the harbour in a usable and scenic condition.

I for one will be asking Councillors Mitchell, Kelleher and Jones when they call looking for a vote what is their "Plan B" to rescue the fiasco that is the harbour. The place is now an absolute mess.

Well then Councillors what is your "Plan B" then

thecommander

Bart Wilson wrote: »

The place is now an absolute mess.

Its a building site, of course its going to be messy. What do you expect, freshly painted JCBs and sweep up team every time a tractor drives thru?

Bart Wilson

thecommander wrote: »

Its a building site, of course its going to be messy. What do you expect, freshly painted JCBs and sweep up team every time a tractor drives thru?

The question is how long will it be messy

Lets face facts folks Fiachra2 talks a lot of sense. The property bubble has burst and property prices will take at least a generation to recover. The financial projections upon which the harbour project were based were fundamentally flawed as it's projected income was based on bubble property prices which were unsustainable.:eek:

When the developers' bank eventually pulls their facility and the cash dries up what will happen to the work in progress. Will the by then liquidated limited liability company tidy the place up and dismantle their batching plant? I fear not and that we may be facing an ugly harbour eyesore for a long long time to come:(

thecommander

Bart Wilson wrote: »

When the developers' bank eventually pulls their facility and the cash dries up what will happen to the work in progress. Will the by then liquidated limited liability company tidy the place up and dismantle their batching plant? I fear not and that we may be facing an ugly harbour eyesore for a long long time to come:(

You're stating this as a fact, and have no idea where the developer is with regards to funding. Have you anything to back up that the bank will pull their funding?

DTinthegrove

fishdog wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I think the apartments will sell like hot cakes. There is still money around and they will have sea views etc.

Sorry BUT do you live on another planet. Where is this Money? Can I have some?

The bursting of the property bubble will take years to resolve, we are only at the start.

However, we don't know what profit margins these guys were working to, do we? So could it be feasible they knock 50-40% off their budgeted selling price and still make 10%-20%(For example)? If I was then then this is what I would be looking at.

Not a bad return with interest rates at close to 0%. The knock on effect for the mass of unsold property in Greystones could be fun.

Fiachra2

It seems unlikely that a significant reduction in price would be possible. The harbour works-according to WCC-were €60M. Thats about €175K per apartment that must be recouped before anyone makes any money. Bear in mind that you can now buy a new apartment in a pretty respectable part of the city for less than that. People erroneously assume that all these apartments were intended to sell for huge money. This is not corrrect. Of course the penthouses overlooking the marina would be worth a lot and might even sell today. However quite a few of them at the back were small, had no sea views-indeed no view at all-and were very close together. Even in the heady days of 2004/5/6 they wouldnt have fetched big money. So its very unlikely that a 40-50% price reduction-or anything like that-would be possible. WCC confirmed this by saying-back in 2006-that any significant reduction in the number of apartments would render the project financially unviable.

I is very possible that this part of the project is not funded by borowings. If it was I'd say they would be gone by now. SISK are an old and very profitable company and could probably fund the construction from their own resources. However that does not minimise the risk that they will look for an out and decide at some stage that they wont invest anything further and just shut down the site, at least for a few years. Much as I disliked the Marina plan I certainly dont want to look at that hoarding for any longer than is necessary. I suggest that we should refrain from either:

1.Continuing to argue over the rights and the wrongs of the project (although those of us who opposed it should remmber, at local election time, which parties -Labour and Greens-gave us support)
2.Adopting an ostrich approach and assuming everyrthing will be fine.

Rather we should pressurise our Councillors to ensure that IF the developer does pull out that the harbour will be left looking well and usable for boating and strollers. Its great to see the Tom Fortune has taken a lead on this matter.
(and yes ok I am a Labour supporter!)

pixbyjohn

Stop the idle chat on either side.
Wait and see what happens as nothing can be done on pure speculation.
Of course it will now become a political football with the upcoming local elections. And it will keep this forum alive with more scaremongering.
Live in the real world, no project of this size ever went exactly according to plan.

danjo

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Stop the idle chat on either side.
Wait and see what happens as nothing can be done on pure speculation.

I disagree with this sentiment. There are people who wait and see what happens to them and others who make things happen. I see nothing wrong in asking the Council for an update. Then action can be taken, if necessary, to avoid a disaster.

Bart Wilson

Fiachra2 wrote: »

However that does not minimise the risk that they will look for an out and decide at some stage that theyinvest anything further and just shut down the site, at least for a few years. Much as I disliked the Marina plan I certainly dont want to look at that hoarding for any longer than is necessary. I suggest that we should refrain from either:

1.Continuing to argue over the rights and the wrongs of the project (although those of us who opposed it should remmber, at local election time, which parties -Labour and Greens-gave us support)

2.Adopting an ostrich approach and assuming everyrthing will be fine.

Rather we should pressurise our Councillors to ensure that IF the developer does pull out that the harbour will be left looking well and usable for boating and strollers. Its great to see the Tom Fortune has taken a lead on this matter.
(and yes ok I am a Labour supporter!)

Wise and sobering words from Fiachra2. :eek:

This matter needs to be sorted out now - before the local elections in June. The political proponents of this development must provide the answers to this important issue. They owe it to the people of Greystones.

What is their PLAN B if the financial reality forces the developer to abondon the development?

The property market in Ireland still has a long way to fall and any recovery will be very long term. See link: Why Housing Is Not Coming Backl

thecommander

Bart Wilson wrote: »

What is their PLAN B if the financial reality forces the developer to abondon the development?:

What if terrorists attack
What if the sea drys up
What if..
What if...

Any chance of staying within facts known and not scaremongering?

loyatemu

thecommander wrote: »

What if terrorists attack
What if the sea drys up
What if..
What if...

Any chance of staying within facts known and not scaremongering?

These threads invariably deteriorate into a load of back and forth sniping. Its reasonable to ask where the money is coming from in the current climate, but if no-one has any actual information (rather than idle speculation) then I'm going to close the thread. Right now there are still workmen lowering blocks into the sea, that's all we know for certain...

Fiachra2

For what its worth I do think there will be more information available in the near future on what the outlook/options are. I think some speculation is no harm in that it gets people thinking about the possibilities. But I accept that once it gets too emotional it becomes pointless.

However hopefully we can keep the thread open until we know more.

wingding

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Thats about €175K per apartment that must be recouped before anyone makes any money. Bear in mind that you can now buy a new apartment in a pretty respectable part of the city for less than that.

less than 175k for an apartment in the city? Where the hell is that and please can i buy one.

Fiachra2

Ashtown. On the canal, beside the railway. Very nice location. €169K for a one bedroomed apt. Im afraid I cant remember the seller.

Apologies for going off topic a bit!

Bart Wilson

At a meeting during the week it was advised that the project is 5 months behind schedule.

Wicklow County Council are still to answer all the issues raised by Tom Fortune. What are they trying to hide?

Will the harbour development be completed or are the rumours that Sisk have lost interest in the project correct?

Have the council made sure they have a guarantee or bond in place with Sisk and Park Development which would prevent them from walking away from a loss making project?

The politicians who staked their political reputations on this development must now provide these and other answers. The people of Greystones have a right to know.

mikedragon32

Dressing up speculation and rumour in question form is counterproductive and likely to spur on further arguement. Unless you can post fact, supported by a link to a reputable source, please don't bother posting. It would be preferred if you can stick to the question raised in the OP.

As already pointed out, these type of threads usually descend into chaos and if this thread is to stay open, this is the way it will have to be.

Bart Wilson

Article in the Itish Times today regarding the harbour development in Greystones.

It seems that the developers are indeed concerned with the huge decline in house prices.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0505/1224245943673.html

He said this, and a €10 million builders’ bond, would ensure that the harbour with its two public slipways and maritime club houses would be completed by autumn 2010, which he said would be “only a few months late”.

He said hoardings around the south side of the harbour would likely come down then, and the 230-berth marina would be completed later, “even if the housing at the northern end is mothballed for a while”.
The council’s spokesman on the project Seán Quirke said the developers were concerned at the fall in house prices, but insisted this was not affecting their commitment.

It would seem that they are hoping for the return of the property bubble in a few years to make it viable and that they will will delay building the houses until then if necessary

In 2006 Mr Quirke said that “what has kept the scheme viable is the strong performance of the property market”. Mr Mitchell said he was confident there was always a market for houses in Greystones, and the timeframe of completion by 2013 could allow for a pause in house building if needed.

Valmont

I get the dart every morning and it seems to me like the harbour is coming along nicely, they almost have the two wall sections meeting!