Is wealth a gift from God? (Christian only Response Please)

Húrin

Christian response only. Thanks.

A Christian friend and I are having an ongoing debate about money. He believes that money is a spiritual gift (though he seems to mean, a gift from God) and that while it is right to use it to help the poor generously, it justifies for instance, buying the latest phone, a car, etc.

The point that he makes is that with the gift and blessing of money, or the ability to make it, God has given us the opportunity and the responsibility to help our brothers and sisters in need. That might mean supporting someone in long term mission in Africa, it might mean subsidising Christian charities back home, it might mean just sharing freely with your friends and not holding a grudge over money, but it most definitely means that money matters, and it matters eternally. Money is something that he feels blessed to possess.

My friend's position seems almost designed to justify the status quo of wealth distribution in the world. He assumes that my position is motivated not by scriptures but by left-wing politics. However it is actually based on the episode in the life of Jesus of the rich young man (described in Mark 10) who would not bring himself to part with his wealth even for eternal life.

I think that coveting new gadgets and cars instead of using it to build up the church or to comfort the poor is an abuse of circumstances. What then is the difference between the Christian and the nihilist?

I would disagree that it is a spiritual gift for a few reasons. For a spiritual gift its distribution is quite skewed towards Europe, Japan and North America. We are not rich, because God has particularly chosen us to be, but because we were born here.

I'm not sure that it is even such a remarkable gift. In spiritual terms it is a mixed blessing, or double edged sword. Too much money tends to make people comfortable, and feel like they don't need God. Blessed are the poor;
how dismayed I sometimes feel when I hear about the strength of the Africans' faith compared to mine.

We can see it in our own continent of Europe. Our culture is dominated by love of machines/gadgets rather than of people and God - these are seen as secondary. "Greed is good; Narcissism is natural" is what we are implicitly
told to think. Any culture that prizes idols like this is a culture of death. We are not the first culture like this - the Egyptians were similar, and their lasting legacy are monuments to death.

I think that people of the Christian community should not be storing up their treasures on earth with weighty possessions, but rather be the lamp that brings a light that does not involve consumer goods. My friend thinks that the fact that he was born into wealth means that he should use it wisely (which I agree with), but that ultimately he interprets it as meaning that God wants him to be wealthy with a high material standard of living.

I'm not saying that I do not waste money ever. I am somewhat hypocritical. However I do not take the glowing view of money that my friend does. What do you think?

philologos

MrPudding wrote: »

Why would be give gifts to people that he will be damning to hell? There are plenty of people who don't like him, can't stand the thought of him, and even if he did exist, would not want anything to do with him. Why would he bless them when plenty of believers haven't got two pennies to rub together?

MrP

MrP: You did read the bold in Hurín's post?

Anyhow, Hurín I think that wealth can be a gift from God in the case of Jacob and Laban and his escape in the book of Genesis, and in Solomon's case it is. It depends on the context of the situation. I don't think God gives wealth as a gift to those who lord it over others, but to those who do His will in accordance with the Scriptures.

It's a complicated issue though.

chozometroid

I don't believe it's a spiritual gift. If you have extra money and possessions lying around, then you probably are not where you should be with God. If your intentions are good, and you have a meaningful career that provides a good salary, then it is up to you how you spend your money. Maybe God helped make your success possible, but I don't think that necessarily means the high salary is a spiritual gift. It's just something more for you to be responsible for. Having the money doesn't mean you will do what God would have you to do with it. If you choose to buy an iPhone instead of helping the poor struggling family down the road, then that is on you. You won't take anything material with you when you die.

I do believe God blesses people with money, but only for the purpose of survival, or spreading the gospel. For instance, if you wanted to start a school in a 3rd world country, and distribute food, clothing, etc., then I see God blessing you with the money to see it through.

In the case of Solomon, where he was immensely rich, I think it was for the purpose of having an earthly king (at the time) that the people needed as a leader. Solomon was blessed with wisdom, and knew what do to with the riches better than anyone. He may have had excess, but it was his job to handle it. He was not a perfect man, and you'll read that he found that all the material things were pointless, and there was nothing really valuable in this life. He gave a lot of great advice based on his reign as a king who experienced a lot of things.

I know a lot of Christians who see nothing wrong with having money. They think it's okay to have all the nicest things. The problem I see is that when you buy mansions, luxury cars, theater tv's, etc, you have to maintain that standard of living. It's a continuous flow of money into material things. And it's just more stuff that will eventually collapse on you. It is vanity.

Húrin

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think God gives wealth as a gift to those who lord it over others, but to those who do His will in accordance with the Scriptures.

Yes, perhaps. I was thinking that most of those blessed with wealth are disinclined to use it for Godly purposes (let's face it, Europe and America are weak in faith) while those without it would seem to be more inclined to use what they have for God's work (Africa).

sorella

Read Jesus on the subject; He is the Authority.

"if you will be perfect, sell all you have and give to the poor."

Dives and Lazarus.. He teaches so much about this.

easier for camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven... where your heart is there will your treasure be....

Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, for then you do it for Me..

Page after page of His teachings

A choice for each to make always of course...

Blessings..

Húrin

sorella wrote: »

Read Jesus on the subject; He is the Authority.

"if you will be perfect, sell all you have and give to the poor."

Dives and Lazarus.. He teaches so much about this.

easier for camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven... where your heart is there will your treasure be....

Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, for then you do it for Me..

Page after page of His teachings

A choice for each to make always of course...

Blessings..

Yes, this is my position. I am just unwilling to believe my friend to be capable of such self-delusion. I don't think he is some false believer. The abscence of the gospels themselves in my friend's references to support his view may be telling. He prefers to rely on the letters of Paul and some parts of the old testament even. (I don't think that any of them taught this opinion though.)

Mind you, perhaps I misrepresent my friend's opinion (always a hazard when presenting an opposing view). He isn't against using money to help the hungry and poor. He believes that money has been given to us wealthy Christians in order to support the materially poor parts of the body of Christ.

He believes that there is a duty to do this, but also that there is nothing wrong with increasing material standards of living for himself. I oppose this view because it seems to justify the current distribution of wealth, and not see it as a consequence of human rebellion against God.

He doesn't seem to understand that just because he has wealth and can use it for personal material accumulation, does not mean that is God's will.

sorella

Yes, many avoid the stark realities of the Master's teachings.

We find in our work that the poorest people are the most generous with the little they have.

Because they have known the reality of need and also the holiness of giving.

The world teaches materialism, and the Church often reinforces this.

And always it is each of us and the way we live that we need to look to; not to judge anyone else. A wise person bids "Keep your eye on your own page", or, as Jesus says, why cavil at the speck of dust in your neighour;s eye when you have a great plank in your own..."

Blessings this night

Húrin wrote: »

Yes, this is my position. I am just unwilling to believe my friend to be capable of such self-delusion. I don't think he is some false believer. The abscence of the gospels themselves in my friend's references to support his view may be telling. He prefers to rely on the letters of Paul and some parts of the old testament even. (I don't think that any of them taught this opinion though.)

Mind you, perhaps I misrepresent my friend's opinion (always a hazard when presenting an opposing view). He isn't against using money to help the hungry and poor. He believes that money has been given to us wealthy Christians in order to support the materially poor parts of the body of Christ.

He believes that there is a duty to do this, but also that there is nothing wrong with increasing material standards of living for himself. I oppose this view because it seems to justify the current distribution of wealth, and not see it as a consequence of human rebellion against God.

He doesn't seem to understand that just because he has wealth and can use it for personal material accumulation, does not mean that is God's will.

Soul Winner

We are all guilty of not doing loads of things that Jesus said should be done. For instance He commanded that wherever the Gospel is preached that it is also to be told what the woman with the alabaster box did. Matthew 26, Mark 14. What did she do? She poured precious ointment on Jesus. And Judas who was the keeper of the money bag asked, “Why this waste?” This ointment could have been sold for much and the money given to the poor.” But Jesus rebuked Judas and said: “Why trouble ye the woman? She had done a good work unto me. Ye have the poor with you always but me ye don't have always." It's curious that it was at this point that the scripture says that Satan entered Judas and from there it was all downhill for him. The spirit that Judas had which said "Why this waste?" is still prevalent in the world today. The world hates anyone who preaches the Gospel to make their living by it, when Paul teaches that those who preach the Gospel should live by the Gospel. We have the poor with us always. The world makes them poor and then gets on the church's conscience to feed and clothe them.

Now I'm all for charity and giving to the poor and all but that is not the ‘reason for being’ purpose of the Church. The Church's ‘reason for being’ function is to proclaim the Gospel to the world, end of! We will always have the poor with us and we should always be ever ready to help them out as much as we can, but that does not mean we take our collective eyes off the ball and turn into a charity giving entity so that the world will loves us. We are not of the world, they will always hate us, no matter what. Better to just keep proclaiming the gospel instead of adhering to the world’s every whim of conscious about the poor and needy, let them feed and clothe them, they’re the ones that have them poor in the first place.

Paul says in Galatians 6 that we are to share materially with the one's that teach us the Word of God. And as these teachers are now in the office of the Old Testament Levite priests where the tribes where to put their tithes, it is now here that we are to pay our tithes and offerings, that is the storehouse for spiritual food. Now I know there many charlatans out there who appear to be Gospel preachers but they’re not. Nothing should be giving to them, I’m talking about true teachers of God’s Word, those who rightly divide it as the scripture declares, not those who hunt and peck for verses which support their own selfish ambitions instead of furthering God’s purposes. To give to the true teachers who rightly divide the Word is to give to God. Paul says that you prove the genuineness of the God’s spirit in you by the way you give. God is a giver, He gave His only begotten Son. The Son gave His life. If His spirit is in you by faith than He will make a giver out of you. But the giving is supposed to be to God, not to the world. Paul warns in this context that if we do not do this then we are not sowing to the spirit. And Jesus said concerning the tithe that, "…this ye ought to have done…" Luke 11:42 And in the Old Testament God curses them who do not keep the storehouse full by tithing off their increase. "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.” Malachi 3:8-10 The New Testament store house is where we get our spiritual food, our Teachers of the Word. "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God."

In short money is very spiritual. Just try and pay a tithe of all that you get every time you get it to the one who teaches you God's Word (A tithe is a tenth by the way) and find out how spiritual it really is. Even the thought of this is an abomination to some Christians (who preach Jesus all day but avoid this doctrine) never mind the world outside the church. It is the litmus test of a true Christian. If you are not giving to God His portion then you have not the spirit in you, and if you have not the spirit then you are none of His. And this is not a work of the law. Even Abraham 400 plus years before the law was given to Moses paid tithe to the King of Salem. "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man soweth that shall he also reap.” Galatians 6:7 If you sow to the flesh you shall of the flesh reap corruption, but if you sow to the spirit you shall of the spirit reap life everlasting." This is the proper context for this oft taken out of context verse of scripture. The silence on this teaching in the church worldwide is deafening. It needs to be taught in all churches, it will soon winnow the crowd but at least the ones who stay will form a solid core from which true spirit growth has good ground to come forth all the more.

And finally God is not against us having money. He is the one who gives power to gain wealth remember. “Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things.” 1 Chronicles 29:12 When you pay tithe all you are doing is honoring the fact that He gives you everything to begin with. God wants us to have everything, He is going to give us everything. Jesus said: “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” Matthew 19:29 The focus should be on the forsaking not what will be gained from it. To forsake is to forsake, to give it up. Once it is truly forsaken then the blessings come, by which time you really won’t care. This is a proof verse that He is not against us having things, He just doesn’t want anything to have you, which was the case with the rich young ruler. His riches possessed Him not the other way around. God wants us to put Him first, then He will give us all things and by that time we won’t even care if we get it or not. And as for the camel through the eye of a needle text, the Coptic or Syriac has this verse referring to the way thread which is made of camel’s hair is threaded, it’s the toughest to thread through the eye of a needled, it does not refer to an actual camel. This thread is just really coarse and very tough to thread but not impossible. It is all about having the right focus and attitude toward God, once you have that right then the floodgates of heaven will open as promised in the Old Testament

“Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.” Malachi 3: 10-12

sorella

You wrote...

"Now I'm all for charity and giving to the poor and all but that is not the ‘reason for being’ purpose of the Church. The Church's ‘reason for being’ function is to proclaim the Gospel to the world, end of! We will always have the poor with us and we should always be ever ready to help them out as much as we can, but that does not mean we take our collective eyes off the ball and turn into a charity giving entity so that the world will loves us. We are not of the world, they will always hate us, no matter what. Better to just keep proclaiming the gospel instead of adhering to the world’s every whim of conscious about the poor and needy, let them feed and clothe them, they’re the ones that have them poor in the first place."



If you can support all you say from the words of Jesus, fine.


What IS the Gospel? Its message? You see it as separated from what you term "the world"? We do not give because we seek applause; we give because God so loved the world that He gave His only Son; because all are Children of God.

We give because there is hunger. And we are feeding Jesus then also.

Because we love as He loved; look at the times He fed hungry people.

A lady who founded a big American Order said, "I refuse to preach the gospel of words to a starving people" Another, "Love is love; food is love with a full belly"

A gospel that does not address the physical needs of people is an empty one.

Jesus ,lived among us; honoured this life.

It is hard to imagine anyone who truly knows and loves the Lord Jesus wanting to own things htey do not need; read Acts, please.

So many arguments here; makes the head spin, when it really is so very simple.... if you have two coats, give one to someone in need. ..... It is so very, very simple, if you know and love the Lord Jesus. Then you will ache to obey His commandments.

WE make others poor by the kind of arguments you use. US.

And we starve Jesus thus.

Blessings this day.....

Soul Winner wrote: »

We are all guilty of not doing loads of things that Jesus said should be done. For instance He commanded that wherever the Gospel is preached that it is also to be told what the woman with the alabaster box did. Matthew 26, Mark 14. What did she do? She poured precious ointment on Jesus. And Judas who was the keeper of the money bag asked, “Why this waste?” This ointment could have been sold for much and the money given to the poor.” But Jesus rebuked Judas and said: “Why trouble ye the woman? She had done a good work unto me. Ye have the poor with you always but me ye don't have always." It's curious that it was at this point that the scripture says that Satan entered Judas and from there it was all downhill for him. The spirit that Judas had which said "Why this waste?" is still prevalent in the world today. The world hates anyone who preaches the Gospel to make their living by it, when Paul teaches that those who preach the Gospel should live by the Gospel. We have the poor with us always. The world makes them poor and then gets on the church's conscience to feed and clothe them.

Now I'm all for charity and giving to the poor and all but that is not the ‘reason for being’ purpose of the Church. The Church's ‘reason for being’ function is to proclaim the Gospel to the world, end of! We will always have the poor with us and we should always be ever ready to help them out as much as we can, but that does not mean we take our collective eyes off the ball and turn into a charity giving entity so that the world will loves us. We are not of the world, they will always hate us, no matter what. Better to just keep proclaiming the gospel instead of adhering to the world’s every whim of conscious about the poor and needy, let them feed and clothe them, they’re the ones that have them poor in the first place.

Paul says in Galatians 6 that we are to share materially with the one's that teach us the Word of God. And as these teachers are now in the office of the Old Testament Levite priests where the tribes where to put their tithes, it is now here that we are to pay our tithes and offerings, that is the storehouse for spiritual food. Now I know there many charlatans out there who appear to be Gospel preachers but they’re not. Nothing should be giving to them, I’m talking about true teachers of God’s Word, those who rightly divide it as the scripture declares, not those who hunt and peck for verses which support their own selfish ambitions instead of furthering God’s purposes. To give to the true teachers who rightly divide the Word is to give to God. Paul says that you prove the genuineness of the God’s spirit in you by the way you give. God is a giver, He gave His only begotten Son. The Son gave His life. If His spirit is in you by faith than He will make a giver out of you. But the giving is supposed to be to God, not to the world. Paul warns in this context that if we do not do this then we are not sowing to the spirit. And Jesus said concerning the tithe that, "…this ye ought to have done…" Luke 11:42 And in the Old Testament God curses them who do not keep the storehouse full by tithing off their increase. "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.” Malachi 3:8-10 The New Testament store house is where we get our spiritual food, our Teachers of the Word. "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God."

In short money is very spiritual. Just try and pay a tithe of all that you get every time you get it to the one who teaches you God's Word (A tithe is a tenth by the way) and find out how spiritual it really is. Even the thought of this is an abomination to some Christians (who preach Jesus all day but avoid this doctrine) never mind the world outside the church. It is the litmus test of a true Christian. If you are not giving to God His portion then you have not the spirit in you, and if you have not the spirit then you are none of His. And this is not a work of the law. Even Abraham 400 plus years before the law was given to Moses paid tithe to the King of Salem. "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man soweth that shall he also reap.” Galatians 6:7 If you sow to the flesh you shall of the flesh reap corruption, but if you sow to the spirit you shall of the spirit reap life everlasting." This is the proper context for this oft taken out of context verse of scripture. The silence on this teaching in the church worldwide is deafening. It needs to be taught in all churches, it will soon winnow the crowd but at least the ones who stay will form a solid core from which true spirit growth has good ground to come forth all the more.

And finally God is not against us having money. He is the one who gives power to gain wealth remember. “Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things.” 1 Chronicles 29:12 When you pay tithe all you are doing is honoring the fact that He gives you everything to begin with. God wants us to have everything, He is going to give us everything. Jesus said: “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” Matthew 19:29 The focus should be on the forsaking not what will be gained from it. To forsake is to forsake, to give it up. Once it is truly forsaken then the blessings come, by which time you really won’t care. This is a proof verse that He is not against us having things, He just doesn’t want anything to have you, which was the case with the rich young ruler. His riches possessed Him not the other way around. God wants us to put Him first, then He will give us all things and by that time we won’t even care if we get it or not. And as for the camel through the eye of a needle text, the Coptic or Syriac has this verse referring to the way thread which is made of camel’s hair is threaded, it’s the toughest to thread through the eye of a needled, it does not refer to an actual camel. This thread is just really coarse and very tough to thread but not impossible. It is all about having the right focus and attitude toward God, once you have that right then the floodgates of heaven will open as promised in the Old Testament

“Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.” Malachi 3: 10-12

PDN

I see two unbalanced and dangerous extremes in the Church - the Poverty Gospel and the Prosperity Gospel.

The Poverty Gospel makes out that it is a blessing to be poor, and that the rich are wicked and ripe for God's judgement. It quotes a lot of Scripture to support itself (and ignores a lot as well). If we really believed the Poverty Gospel then we wouldn't give to charity at all - because by helping the poor we are actually removing a blessing from them!

The Prosperity Gospel teaches that God wants you to be rich and that material prosperity (and usually physical healing as well) stand coequal with salvation in God's priorities. It also quotes a lot of Scripture to support itself (and ignores a lot as well). This heresy is a religious baptising of American consumerism.

The problem with both the Povery Gospel and the Prosperity Gospel is that they oversimplify, and therefore distort, the biblical teaching.

The Poverty Gospel acts as if there are only 2 kinds of people: the righteous poor and the wicked rich.

The Prosperity Gospel acts as if there are only 2 kinds of people: the righteous rich and the wicked poor.

In fact the Bible teaches that there are four kinds of people: the righteous poor, the wicked poor, the righteous rich, and the wicked rich. The concept of the righteous rich is an interesting theme that runs through both the Old and New Testaments.

Those of us who live in Ireland have no choice in whether God wants us rich or poor - we are already incredibly rich by most people's standards purely by accident of birth. Consider the following:
a) If you receive the most basic social welfare payment in Ireland then you are among the top 12.5% richest people in the world.
b) If you live on the minimum wage then you are among the top 10% richest people in the world.
c) If you own your own computer then you are among the top 5% richest people in the world.
d) If you live on the average industrial wage in Ireland then you are in the top 2.5% richest people in the world.
e) If your net household income exceeds 1000 euro per week then you are the elite of the elite and are among the richest 1% of the entire human race.

So, for those of us in Ireland, we are rich already. The question is not whether God wants us to be rich or not, but whether we will be among the righteous rich or the wicked rich.

In answer to the OP, I think we should treat our wealth as a responsibility, rather than as a gift. The biblical concept of stewardship is that we recognise that 'our' wealth actually belongs to God rather than to us. Therefore we need His guidance to handle our finances responsibly, biblically, and in a way that helps the poor.

sorella

Amen to most of this. Later. I realised thinking on it that I had misread what you say. Being a Monastic means a different significance to some words eg poverty.

So I amend my first remark:)

Your definitions are odd to us; we vow Holy Poverty and, as a true Mendicant Order of longstanding, we live it out. we own no property and keep no money. All goes to the work we do. We live simply - within reason ie to be safe. I am one of the very few who has access to a computer. It saves so much for my work as our Historian etc.

Poverty also is not about money; it is about the giving of all we have and are, as Jesus gave all for us. Skills, time, strength.. We would never see our poverty as extreme or dangerous; an odd word to use? It is simply practical Christianity; read Acts. Holding all in common and giving all we do not need to the poor.

Somehow it has become a very "comfortable" idea that these are extremes. Not so

PDN wrote: »

I see two unbalanced and dangerous extremes in the Church - the Poverty Gospel and the Prosperity Gospel.

The Poverty Gospel makes out that it is a blessing to be poor, and that the rich are wicked and ripe for God's judgement. It quotes a lot of Scripture to support itself (and ignores a lot as well). If we really believed the Poverty Gospel then we wouldn't give to charity at all - because by helping the poor we are actually removing a blessing from them!

The Prosperity Gospel teaches that God wants you to be rich and that material prosperity (and usually physical healing as well) stand coequal with salvation in God's priorities. It also quotes a lot of Scripture to support itself (and ignores a lot as well). This heresy is a religious baptising of American consumerism.

The problem with both the Povery Gospel and the Prosperity Gospel is that they oversimplify, and therefore distort, the biblical teaching.

The Poverty Gospel acts as if there are only 2 kinds of people: the righteous poor and the wicked rich.

The Prosperity Gospel acts as if there are only 2 kinds of people: the righteous rich and the wicked poor.

In fact the Bible teaches that there are four kinds of people: the righteous poor, the wicked poor, the righteous rich, and the wicked rich. The concept of the righteous rich is an interesting theme that runs through both the Old and New Testaments.

Those of us who live in Ireland have no choice in whether God wants us rich or poor - we are already incredibly rich by most people's standards purely by accident of birth. Consider the following:
a) If you receive the most basic social welfare payment in Ireland then you are among the top 12.5% richest people in the world.
b) If you live on the minimum wage then you are among the top 10% richest people in the world.
c) If you own your own computer then you are among the top 5% richest people in the world.
d) If you live on the average industrial wage in Ireland then you are in the top 2.5% richest people in the world.
e) If your net household income exceeds 1000 euro per week then you are the elite of the elite and are among the richest 1% of the entire human race.

So, for those of us in Ireland, we are rich already. The question is not whether God wants us to be rich or not, but whether we will be among the righteous rich or the wicked rich.

In answer to the OP, I think we should treat our wealth as a responsibility, rather than as a gift. The biblical concept of stewardship is that we recognise that 'our' wealth actually belongs to God rather than to us. Therefore we need His guidance to handle our finances responsibly, biblically, and in a way that helps the poor.

homer911

The Christian Churches in the USA seem to be obsessed with this topic (based on what we see from the high profile Christian Leaders and authors anyway) A worthy item for dicsussion and some good responses!

sorella

Please can you explain this as we see a very different scene there. Thank you.

homer911 wrote: »

The Christian Churches in the USA seem to be obsessed with this topic (based on what we see from the high profile Christian Leaders and authors anyway) A worthy item for dicsussion and some good responses!

BrianCalgary

No I need to wade in.

The story of the rich man I think is not about money but asks the question: are you prepared to give up what you love most to follow Jesus?

Secondly I have a friend who is very wealthy. He views his wealth as a gift and a trust from God. He is constantly asking God what should he contribute to? My friend has done quite few wonderful things in thrid world countries with his money.

God blesses each of us with something different. As Christians we need to refelect on how we use what God does give us. We need to recognize that it all comes from Him and we should give back.

I will find a link to our pastors recent sermon on this topic.
http://68.145.168.191/southview/resources/audio.htm

Jan 18 sermon I believe.

sorella

Interesting ideas.

But Jesus was very specific indeed. In many texts.

And read Acts; the very early Church. Who knew Jesus in this life ...

Of course, we would love to be millionaires.... to give it all away and feed all the needy ones we could. .

Why keep any? Cannot take it with you after all.

The gift God gives to each and all of us is the gift of the needs of others; the ability to give.....the gift of loving others more than we love ourselves...... It takes many forms ..

Blessings

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No I need to wade in.

The story of the rich man I think is not about money but asks the question: are you prepared to give up what you love most to follow Jesus?

Secondly I have a friend who is very wealthy. He views his wealth as a gift and a trust from God. He is constantly asking God what should he contribute to? My friend has done quite few wonderful things in thrid world countries with his money.

God blesses each of us with something different. As Christians we need to refelect on how we use what God does give us. We need to recognize that it all comes from Him and we should give back.

I will find a link to our pastors recent sermon on this topic.
http://68.145.168.191/southview/resources/audio.htm

Jan 18 sermon I believe.

Soul Winner

sorella wrote: »

If you can support all you say from the words of Jesus, fine.

And the whole of scripture too. Giving TO GOD is very important to God. It has pride of place in the Tabernacle in the Old Testament in the Table of Shewbread. God loves the hilarious giver as it states in the New Testament and the only time God ever killed anyone in the new Testament was over giving. The first murder in the Old Testament was over giving. Able did it right and Cain did it wrong. Cain brought the wrong offering. he offered God fruits of the ground that God had cursed. Able did it right, he brought the lamb which is a type of what God himself will do for us. Fruits of the ground offerings are 'my way of giving' offerings, whereas bringing the lamb from the flock was 'God's way of giving offerings'. So which is it going to be? Giving to God God's way? Or giving to the poor Judas' way? Sure we give to the poor but do it with a heart of compassion but more importantly give God's portion to God first.

sorella wrote: »

What IS the Gospel? Its message?

The gospel is this: "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Galatians 1:3-5

sorella wrote: »

You see it as separated from what you term "the world"? We do not give because we seek applause; we give because God so loved the world that He gave His only Son; because all are Children of God.

We give because we have God's spirit in us, we cannot give to God without it, and not just money, time also and commitment to the work of the ministry.

sorella wrote: »

We give because there is hunger. And we are feeding Jesus then also.

Yes but that is a separate type of giving to what I was talking about. Gving to God is much more important than giving to the poor and needy.

sorella wrote: »

Because we love as He loved; look at the times He fed hungry people.

You missed the whole point of my post.

sorella wrote: »

A lady who founded a big American Order said, "I refuse to preach the gospel of words to a starving people"

Well she should have read what Peter said to the lame man when he asked Peter for money. "Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." Acts 3:6

sorella wrote: »

A gospel that does not address the physical needs of people is an empty one.

That's heresy my dear. Paul said that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and Jesus said it is better to enter life lame than to go whole into destruction.

sorella wrote: »

Jesus ,lived among us; honoured this life.

And your point is?

sorella wrote: »

It is hard to imagine anyone who truly knows and loves the Lord Jesus wanting to own things htey do not need; read Acts, please.

I did, I just quoted you a verse from it, read above. In the New Testament they gave everything they had, which is probably why we don't hear much teaching on ‘giving’ in it. Why teach on tithing when they're giving everything? In any case God claims a tenth of all that we have. The tithe is the Lord's and to deliver that to where He says to deliver it is more important to Him than feeding the hungry. As long as Jesus performed miracles and fed the people He had thousands following Him. As soon as He said “Take up your cross and follow me” they all left Him save a few.

sorella wrote: »

So many arguments here; makes the head spin, when it really is so very simple.... if you have two coats, give one to someone in need. ..... It is so very, very simple, if you know and love the Lord Jesus. Then you will ache to obey His commandments.

Laying a ‘feed the poor trip’ on the Church is a Satanic attack designed to keep the Curch from doing what it is primarily supposed to do. Proclaim the Gospel!

sorella wrote: »

WE make others poor by the kind of arguments you use. US.

Like I said, it is not the Church’s primary function to feed the poor rather it is to preach the Gospel to them.

sorella wrote: »

And we starve Jesus thus.

That’s trip laying Christianity and it is heretical. You give them to eat and stop laying the trip on everyone else. We all have our own charitable responses that we do for the needy which Jesus says to do in private anyway. But the Gospel we are to proclaim boldly and loudly from the roof tops. I can't beleive you said: "A gospel that does not address the physical needs of people is an empty one" that doctrine is straight from the pit of hell.

santing

Most has already been said, I just want to add two Scripture verses:

And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings. "One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much. If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches? And if you have not been faithful in that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." (Luk 16:9-13 ESV)

Wealth is a blessing, but not the "proper" blessing for a Christian.

I have experienced times of need and times of abundance. In any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of contentment, whether I go satisfied or hungry, have plenty or nothing. I am able to do all things through the one who strengthens me. (Php 4:12-13 NET)

Paul knew the secret of both having nothing and having plenty ... through Him who strengthened him.

Húrin

PDN wrote: »

I see two unbalanced and dangerous extremes in the Church - the Poverty Gospel and the Prosperity Gospel.

Well my friend is not preaching the prosperity gospel, and I am certainly not preaching the Poverty Gospel. I think it is bad to romanticise poverty. It's damn hard.

In fact the Bible teaches that there are four kinds of people: the righteous poor, the wicked poor, the righteous rich, and the wicked rich. The concept of the righteous rich is an interesting theme that runs through both the Old and New Testaments.

Those of us who live in Ireland have no choice in whether God wants us rich or poor - we are already incredibly rich by most people's standards purely by accident of birth.

Yes, I don't see why my friend rejects the notion of accident of birth... as if we were predestined to be rich Irish Christians.

So, for those of us in Ireland, we are rich already. The question is not whether God wants us to be rich or not, but whether we will be among the righteous rich or the wicked rich.

In answer to the OP, I think we should treat our wealth as a responsibility, rather than as a gift. The biblical concept of stewardship is that we recognise that 'our' wealth actually belongs to God rather than to us. Therefore we need His guidance to handle our finances responsibly, biblically, and in a way that helps the poor.

Good post, very informative and agreeable.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The story of the rich man I think is not about money but asks the question: are you prepared to give up what you love most to follow Jesus?

Indeed, like luxury!

Húrin

Soul Winner wrote: »

So which is it going to be? Giving to God God's way? Or giving to the poor Judas' way? Sure we give to the poor but do it with a heart of compassion but more importantly give God's portion to God first.

That doesn't make much sense. Judas didn't want the coins because he cared for the poor, but because he was personally stashing it for himself. It was customary for the disciples to sell what they had and give to the poor, which was the legitimate cause Judas was appealing to, to mask his thieving.

We don't offer sacrifices to God. We give to God by giving to the poor.

Yes but that is a separate type of giving to what I was talking about. Gving to God is much more important than giving to the poor and needy.

That is a false dichotomy.

You missed the whole point of my post.

Well, to be fair, you didn't really read my OP.

That's heresy my dear.

No, that's James 2:14-18

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

Laying a ‘feed the poor trip’ on the Church is a Satanic attack designed to keep the Curch from doing what it is primarily supposed to do. Proclaim the Gospel!

How does feeding the poor (or better yet, helping them feed themselves) restrict the preaching of the gospel? If anything it aids it.

sorella

This is from Todd Bentley? "Fresh Fire Ministries"?

Verbatim in parts.

Soul Winner wrote: »

And the whole of scripture too. Giving TO GOD is very important to God. It has pride of place in the Tabernacle in the Old Testament in the Table of Shewbread. God loves the hilarious giver as it states in the New Testament and the only time God ever killed anyone in the new Testament was over giving. The first murder in the Old Testament was over giving. Able did it right and Cain did it wrong. Cain brought the wrong offering. he offered God fruits of the ground that God had cursed. Able did it right, he brought the lamb which is a type of what God himself will do for us. Fruits of the ground offerings are 'my way of giving' offerings, whereas bringing the lamb from the flock was 'God's way of giving offerings'. So which is it going to be? Giving to God God's way? Or giving to the poor Judas' way? Sure we give to the poor but do it with a heart of compassion but more importantly give God's portion to God first.



The gospel is this: "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Galatians 1:3-5



We give because we have God's spirit in us, we cannot give to God without it, and not just money, time also and commitment to the work of the ministry.



Yes but that is a separate type of giving to what I was talking about. Gving to God is much more important than giving to the poor and needy.



You missed the whole point of my post.



Well she should have read what Peter said to the lame man when he asked Peter for money. "Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." Acts 3:6


That's heresy my dear. Paul said that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and Jesus said it is better to enter life lame than to go whole into destruction.



And your point is?



I did, I just quoted you a verse from it, read above. In the New Testament they gave everything they had, which is probably why we don't hear much teaching on ‘giving’ in it. Why teach on tithing when they're giving everything? In any case God claims a tenth of all that we have. The tithe is the Lord's and to deliver that to where He says to deliver it is more important to Him than feeding the hungry. As long as Jesus performed miracles and fed the people He had thousands following Him. As soon as He said “Take up your cross and follow me” they all left Him save a few.


Laying a ‘feed the poor trip’ on the Church is a Satanic attack designed to keep the Curch from doing what it is primarily supposed to do. Proclaim the Gospel!


Like I said, it is not the Church’s primary function to feed the poor rather it is to preach the Gospel to them.


That’s trip laying Christianity and it is heretical. You give them to eat and stop laying the trip on everyone else. We all have our own charitable responses that we do for the needy which Jesus says to do in private anyway. But the Gospel we are to proclaim boldly and loudly from the roof tops. I can't beleive you said: "A gospel that does not address the physical needs of people is an empty one" that doctrine is straight from the pit of hell.

sorella

We sell our jams and crafts at markets for our work with the homeless and abandoned babies, and in summer many come over from the North, evangelising Donegal.

As Catholic Nuns wearing the full Monastic Habit, we get attacked often.

Our work of course get swept aside as trivial... "That won't get you to heaven!"

AS we reply; thankfully, that is up to God, not you!

We are a mendicant order, owning nothing.

Three such evangelists even attacked what they called our "expensive"car"; a 98 Susuki Waggon.... As we assured them that was a gift from a kind man whose wife we prayed for and who recovered. God's provision in great need.. "( we call if the Nunmobile and the colour purple matches our veils)

They then got into a very new, sleek sports car.....

My point is that it is so easy to try to discredit others; because their way is different from yours.. as I said at the start, this has to be, like so many other things, personal choice; our work and our lives are as Monastic Nuns..... dedicated and consecrated as Brides of Christ to our work, for over 150 years now, of caring for the homeless. In the Holy Name of Jesus.

So we see Poverty differently; we live very simply, so that others may simply live. Not a sterile penury. A total giiving.

Food matters; without it how can anyone live?

Dignity matters; street dwellers are treated like dirt, and baby girls in India are literally thrown away.

One by one, they can be saved physically; and so many see the lovingkindness of our God only when they are treated with lovingkindness. And so they turn to Jesus and are saved in all ways... and often they in turn work with the needy.

Yet we still feed whoever and whatever; no proseltysing.

"Love one another" : it is so very simple

But always YOUR CHOICE. Always that freedom.

NB We need rich ones too to give to us!!!!

Blessings this day

PDN

Soul Winner wrote: »

Like I said, it is not the Church’s primary function to feed the poor rather it is to preach the Gospel to them.

It may not be our primary function, but if we neglect to feed the poor when we have the opportunity to do so then the Gospel we are preaching is a lot of hot air:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46)

Giving to the poor is part of the good works that are an inevitable result of anyone truly receiving the Gospel.

If someone feels called to a life of voluntary poverty, such as a nun, then fair play to them, the same applies if they are called to celibacy. I thank God that He has called me to neither.

There are plenty of Scriptures that warn us about serving Mammon and chasing after wealth, but that must be balanced with Scriptures that speak of God blessing us with material wealth (for instance in 2 Corinthians Chapter 9).

I accept that, simply by living in a Western European country, I have been blessed with a measure of wealth that would seem staggering to a large proportion of the earth's population. Therefore I am to use that wisely. This, for me, means living by the following principles.
1. I am not to act or think as if my finances are my own or have been gained by my own efforts. Instead I treat them as a gift from God and use them as God directs.
2. I am to be obedient to God's Scriptural commands concerning giving. Therefore I tithe 10% of my gross income to the Church and then give additional gifts and offerings to world missions etc. as I feel the Holy Spirit is directing me.
3. I am to view God, not the world, as the source of my finances. As we teach our church: the Celtic Tiger may be dead & stuffed, but we were always depending on the Lion of the tribe of Judah anyway!
4. All gifts from God are to be enjoyed. We should not feel guilty about enjoying a good meal, driving a nice car, or taking a holiday.
5. However, we should avoid excessive consumption or materialism. While I see nothing wrong in owning a nice car, I am still driving an 8-year old vehicle with 150,000 miles on the clock. I could afford a replacement, but the old car does its job well and I enjoy driving it - so there is no need to spend unnecessarily. In a similar vein, this week I am in the States serving on our denomination's International Council. I could have legitimately flown business class and the denomination would have picked up the tab for my expenses. Instead I always shop around for the cheapest economy seats, because I think it better to claim the minimum expenses possible and so not drain funds that the denomination can use for real ministry.

I like the example of the recently much-maligned preacher Rick Warren (he who delivered the invocation at Obama's inauguration). Warren is the author of one of the best selling books in history, The Purpose Driven Life. Obviously he is extremely wealthy, earning millions in royalties. One of the first things he did when the royalties began rolling in was to calculate how much salary he had received from his Church over the past 20 years. He then repaid them every cent. Now he gives 90% of his income to the Church or to charitable causes. A modern day example, I believe, of the biblical concept of the righteous rich.

sorella

Small point; "voluntary poverty" and "Monastic poverty" are entirely different.

Blessings

PDN wrote: »

It may not be our primary function, but if we neglect to feed the poor when we have the opportunity to do so then the Gospel we are preaching is a lot of hot air:


Giving to the poor is part of the good works that are an inevitable result of anyone truly receiving the Gospel.

If someone feels called to a life of voluntary poverty, such as a nun, then fair play to them, the same applies if they are called to celibacy. I thank God that He has called me to neither.

There are plenty of Scriptures that warn us about serving Mammon and chasing after wealth, but that must be balanced with Scriptures that speak of God blessing us with material wealth (for instance in 2 Corinthians Chapter 9).

I accept that, simply by living in a Western European country, I have been blessed with a measure of wealth that would seem staggering to a large proportion of the earth's population. Therefore I am to use that wisely. This, for me, means living by the following principles.
1. I am not to act or think as if my finances are my own or have been gained by my own efforts. Instead I treat them as a gift from God and use them as God directs.
2. I am to be obedient to God's Scriptural commands concerning giving. Therefore I tithe 10% of my gross income to the Church and then give additional gifts and offerings to world missions etc. as I feel the Holy Spirit is directing me.
3. I am to view God, not the world, as the source of my finances. As we teach our church: the Celtic Tiger may be dead & stuffed, but we were always depending on the Lion of the tribe of Judah anyway!
4. All gifts from God are to be enjoyed. We should not feel guilty about enjoying a good meal, driving a nice car, or taking a holiday.
5. However, we should avoid excessive consumption or materialism. While I see nothing wrong in owning a nice car, I am still driving an 8-year old vehicle with 150,000 miles on the clock. I could afford a replacement, but the old car does its job well and I enjoy driving it - so there is no need to spend unnecessarily. In a similar vein, this week I am in the States serving on our denomination's International Council. I could have legitimately flown business class and the denomination would have picked up the tab for my expenses. Instead I always shop around for the cheapest economy seats, because I think it better to claim the minimum expenses possible and so not drain funds that the denomination can use for real ministry.

I like the example of the recently much-maligned preacher Rick Warren (he who delivered the invocation at Obama's inauguration). Warren is the author of one of the best selling books in history, The Purpose Driven Life. Obviously he is extremely wealthy, earning millions in royalties. One of the first things he did when the royalties began rolling in was to calculate how much salary he had received from his Church over the past 20 years. He then repaid them every cent. Now he gives 90% of his income to the Church or to charitable causes. A modern day example, I believe, of the biblical concept of the righteous rich.

Soul Winner

Húrin wrote: »

That doesn't make much sense. Judas didn't want the coins because he cared for the poor, but because he was personally stashing it for himself. It was customary for the disciples to sell what they had and give to the poor, which was the legitimate cause Judas was appealing to, to mask his thieving.

Point conceded.

Húrin wrote: »

We don't offer sacrifices to God. We give to God by giving to the poor.

So what about Paul's admonition in Galatians 6 to share materially with the one's who teach us in the Word which Paul equates to sowing to the spirit? Giving to the poor to be seen of men will get its reward down here not in Heaven. Do it in private and you will have your reward in heaven.

Húrin wrote: »

That is a false dichotomy.

No its not.

Húrin wrote: »

Well, to be fair, you didn't really read my OP.

Well in fairness I wasn’t responding to your post anyway. I was responding to sorella’s

Húrin wrote: »

No, that's James 2:14-18

Well James also advocated that works of the law will get you into heaven. If he’s right then Paul is wrong because Paul says that “as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse.” Galatians 3:10

Húrin wrote: »

How does feeding the poor (or better yet, helping them feed themselves) restrict the preaching of the gospel? If anything it aids it.

I never said it did. If you re-read my posts you will notice that I said that I am all for feeding the poor and giving to the needy. It just shouldn’t become a function of the church that eclipses its primary function which is to proclaim the Gospel to all nations. This has happened is and is very prone to happening to churches. They take their eye off the ball as it were. They forget that their primary reason for being is to do what Paul did. Preach the faith of Christ Jesus. To preach that God accepts you as you are and that if you trust Him with your life and claim His promises He will fill you with His spirit and His spirit will bare fruit in and through you and you will be saved by that faith. Imitating Jesus with fleshly outward performance that gets the thumbs up by the world will not get you any reward in heaven only down here. It is like putting the cart before the horse. Put the horse befor the cart and we will not only be saved but can do great works through the inner workings of His spirit including feeding the poor etc etc…

sorella

Our "horse" is very firmly always before the cart, my friend; how dare you suggest other wise, if that is what you are doing?

This is the lady whose words you said came from Satan?

http://www.peacehealth.org/AboutPH/Cusack.htm

Really! I mean REALLY!!!

So judgemental you are.

All charities need for folk to know who they are and what they do to raise awareness and funds.

But what you hear and see is a fraction of what they do. Just enough for folk to see to help.

Our faith has to be lived in real terms. Following Jesus who fed the many thousands who followed him .. "lest they faint by the wayside".

He is our Captain; at the helm of our ship; our Pilot, our Lord ;; alleluia!! JESUS!
"Put the horse befor the cart and we will not only be saved but can do great works through the inner workings of His spirit including feeding the poor etc etc… "

Soul Winner

sorella wrote: »

Our "horse" is very firmly always before the cart, my friend; how dare you suggest other wise, if that is what you are doing?

This is the lady whose words you said came from Satan?

http://www.peacehealth.org/AboutPH/Cusack.htm

Really! I mean REALLY!!!

So judgemental you are.

All charities need for folk to know who they are and what they do to raise awareness and funds.

But what you hear and see is a fraction of what they do. Just enough for folk to see to help.

Our faith has to be lived in real terms. Following Jesus who fed the many thousands who followed him .. "lest they faint by the wayside".

He is our Captain; at the helm of our ship; our Pilot, our Lord ;; alleluia!! JESUS!
"Put the horse before the cart and we will not only be saved but can do great works through the inner workings of His spirit including feeding the poor etc etc… "

Look sweetheart, what you guys do for the poor is wonderful and great and all and I for one think it is a mostly unrewarded good work and am convinced that God sees every drop of sweat that you guys produce for the sake of these people and I in no way want to be in conflict with you about that. I too have couple of charities that I give to but that is a personal thing for me and something I don’t like going on about in any degree of length.

But when it comes to the Gospel that Jesus died to bring about and that the martyrs of the Church who throughout the centuries suffered hideous and horrible deaths to preserve, I am afraid I must defend it and strive to keep it alive and to avoid the preaching of it being eclipsed and swamped by even good and well intentioned works.

Charities and Churches should be separate entities and Churches should give to and help Charities as an auxiliary function but it should not in no wise be allowed to tune into one and forget what its primary commission is, to proclaim the good news to all nations.

santing

sorella wrote: »

This is the lady whose words you said came from Satan?

http://www.peacehealth.org/AboutPH/Cusack.htm

Really! I mean REALLY!!!

So judgemental you are.

Very interesting lady, see Wikipedia. I would love to read some of her books such as: "Nun of Kenmare: An Autobiography (London: Jonah Child [1888], and Do. [reiss.] (London: Hodder & Stoughton 1889), and Do. [facs. rep. edn.] (London: Routledge/Thoemmes 1998), xv, xx, 556p., port.; Life Inside the Church of Rome (London: Hodder & Stoughton 1889), 408pp.; The Story of My Life (London: Hodder & Stoughton 1891), xi, 403pp. [presum. reiss. of Autobiography, 1889]; A Remarkable Book and Two Remarkable Relics (London: Marshall Bros. 1892); What Rome Teaches (London: Marshall Bros. 1892); The Black Pope: A History of the Jesuits (London: Marshall, Russell & Co.; Brighton: DB Friend & Co. [1896]); His Yarn, and Another Story (London: Marshall, Russell, & Co. [1897]); Is there a Roman Catholic Church? (London: Marshall, Russell & Co.; Brighton: D. B. Friend & Co. 1897); Revolution and War, the secret conspiracy of the Jesuits in Great Britain (London: Swan: Sonnenschein & Co. 1910), 2nd ed. (London: George Allen & Co. 1913); new and revised ed., (London: Stanley Paul & Co. 1913). COMM, Irene ffrench Eager, The Nun of Kenmare (Cork 1970). "

But if someone claims to hear "her" voice today, and is talking with "her" today, I would also be inclined to say that that message comes from Satan, not from God. That person is deceived, it isn't Mary Cusack at all.

sorella

Young man; the name is SISTER. respect and protocol please.

What you write is unscriptural simply and very patronising.

Read Jesus.

You are making a false dichotomy here.

Because we are on the same side; although you seem to seek to refuse to see that. Why?

This is not about secular charitites. Who seem to have offended you. But about men and women who in Christ Jesus go our to serve Him; dressed in the Holy Habit of religion and thus witnesses to His love.

It is simply about being the hands and feet and voice of Jesus. Period.

Prayer is the lovingkindness of the Lord. Our love expressed is the Gospel also.

None of which excludes the teaching of the Gospel of Salvation; in truth it creates a door to reach folk for Jesus.

So you would attack eg Mother Teresa also?

And Saint Francis who embraced and cared for lepers, saying," We preach the Gospel by our lives, and by works when appropriate.."

Fr Damian of Molokai..

The Gospel we all preach ...

It cannot exist in a bubble separated from our physical lives; the old Celtic word for the body was the "soul-shrine". We say in the NT the "temple of the Holy Spirit"

So no more can we tend the body without tending the soul also, and vice versa

As all the saints knew well.

Bless your journey

Soul Winner wrote: »

Look sweetheart, what you guys do for the poor is wonderful and great and all and I for one think it is a mostly unrewarded good work and am convinced that God sees every drop of sweat that you guys produce for the sake of these people and I in no way want to be in conflict with you about that. I too have couple of charities that I give to but that is a personal thing for me and something I don’t like going on about in any degree of length.

But when it comes to the Gospel that Jesus died to bring about and that the martyrs of the Church who throughout the centuries suffered hideous and horrible deaths to preserve, I am afraid I must defend it and strive to keep it alive and to avoid the preaching of it being eclipsed and swamped by even good and well intentioned works.

Charities and Churches should be separate entities and Churches should give to and help Charities as an auxiliary function but it should not in no wise be allowed to tune into one and forget what its primary commission is, to proclaim the good news to all nations.

sorella

Gee; I never read stuff like that..

Not sure where you are coming from on your last words here; try not to limit God maybe?

It would scare me to death.

Blessings....

santing wrote: »

Very interesting lady, see Wikipedia. I would love to read some of her books such as: "Nun of Kenmare: An Autobiography (London: Jonah Child [1888], and Do. [reiss.] (London: Hodder & Stoughton 1889), and Do. [facs. rep. edn.] (London: Routledge/Thoemmes 1998), xv, xx, 556p., port.; Life Inside the Church of Rome (London: Hodder & Stoughton 1889), 408pp.; The Story of My Life (London: Hodder & Stoughton 1891), xi, 403pp. [presum. reiss. of Autobiography, 1889]; A Remarkable Book and Two Remarkable Relics (London: Marshall Bros. 1892); What Rome Teaches (London: Marshall Bros. 1892); The Black Pope: A History of the Jesuits (London: Marshall, Russell & Co.; Brighton: DB Friend & Co. [1896]); His Yarn, and Another Story (London: Marshall, Russell, & Co. [1897]); Is there a Roman Catholic Church? (London: Marshall, Russell & Co.; Brighton: D. B. Friend & Co. 1897); Revolution and War, the secret conspiracy of the Jesuits in Great Britain (London: Swan: Sonnenschein & Co. 1910), 2nd ed. (London: George Allen & Co. 1913); new and revised ed., (London: Stanley Paul & Co. 1913). COMM, Irene ffrench Eager, The Nun of Kenmare (Cork 1970). "

But if someone claims to hear "her" voice today, and is talking with "her" today, I would also be inclined to say that that message comes from Satan, not from God. That person is deceived, it isn't Mary Cusack at all.

santing

sorella wrote: »

Not sure where you are coming from on your last words here; try not to limit God maybe?

It would scare me to death.

Blessings....

It certainly should scare you to death ...

It is coming from A Free Spirit by Patrick Francis

The revelations to Patrick Francis in A Free Spirit are both fascinating and encouraging. Margaret Anna Cusack (1829- 1899) was internationally known as a campaigner for social justice and founded an order of nuns called the Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace. As a soul in spirit, she had already indicated to Patrick Francis that she was one of his guides. In 1998, she revealed to him that she wanted to work with him in writing a book. In it, she tells how evolved souls who have passed over try to help people on the Earth.

Húrin

Soul Winner wrote: »

No its not.

So how do we materially give to God, in a way that does not involve helping the poor? Can we give to God anything that he does not already have? Everything on earth is the Lord's. (Pslam 24:1)

Yes, the spread of the Gospels requires money, and that should be given, but I don't see the point in giving to that purpose when it has no shortage of money. The argument also assumes that giving to the poor is separate from preaching the Gospel. Service offers a valuable evangelising opportunity, and demonstrates to those who do not yet believe that the Gospels have a real effect on believers.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Well James also advocated that works of the law will get you into heaven. If he’s right then Paul is wrong because Paul says that “as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse.” Galatians 3:10

I don't think James did say that. In any case, his words are as much a part of the scriptures as Paul's, and that is what we are both appealing to.

Soul Winner wrote: »

I am all for feeding the poor and giving to the needy. It just shouldn’t become a function of the church that eclipses its primary function which is to proclaim the Gospel to all nations.

I agree. I wouldn't want to do that at all. I just reject the segregation between the two that states that helping the poor does not do anything to preach the good news.