Jurisdiction

Random

Do members of the PSNI have Jurisdiction in England?

Do members of the Met have Jurisdiction in Wales?

Etc

Thanks

metman

A Police Officer from any English or Welsh force has jurisdiction anywhere in England and Wales and has a power of arrest in Northern Ireland.

I'm not sure what the position is for PSNI in England or Wales.

As for Scotland, when we sent officers up to Scotland on mutual aid for the G8 summit, they were attested under Scottish law and thus had full policing powers as well.

(Spelling = Jurisdiction)

Random

What's the difference between jurisdicton or power of arrest? Thanks

civdef

I'm sure some of the constables on the forum will give a better answer, but IIRC, some powers arrest exist in the rest of the UK for offences committed in NI.

Doesn't answer the query, but an interesting link came up on google:
http://www.psni.police.uk/garda_entering_northern_ireland-2.pdf

Eru

Im surprised actually that mainland uk lads have powers of arrest in NI as well but it would certainly make things easier.

Gardai in the republic have no jurisdiction outside the Republic of Ireland and are the only police force that have powers of arrest wtihin the Republic of Ireland.

However Gardai and PSNI do have powers of arrest for offences commited in the other jurisdiction provided the arrest takes place within their own boundaries. Example, PSNI can arrest a person in Belfast for a crime commited in Dublin and vice versa within limits(littering not included)

I also understand that there will soon be an allowance for either party to enter and arrest on the other side of the border provided it was during an initial 'hot pursuit' scenario or something like that. Again, with such an open border its crazy that a criminal can simple cross a road then stand there smiling and waving at you.

Random

Im surprised actually that mainland uk lads have powers of arrest in NI as well but it would certainly make things easier.

How so?

However Gardai and PSNI do have powers of arrest for offences commited in the other jurisdiction provided the arrest takes place within their own boundaries. Example, PSNI can arrest a person in Belfast for a crime commited in Dublin and vice versa within limits(littering not included)

Is this not the whole extraditiion thing etc ??

I also understand that there will soon be an allowance for either party to enter and arrest on the other side of the border provided it was during an initial 'hot pursuit' scenario or something like that. Again, with such an open border its crazy that a criminal can simple cross a road then stand there smiling and waving at you.

How does it actually work then when a Garda is chasing someone down the M1? Do they have to turn off the blues and just drive alongside the "bad guy" once they cross the border? Radio ahead and ask PSNI to come out and assist / arrest ?

Eru

Random wrote: »

How so?

Because England, Wales and Scotland have no borders and Mr Criminal can easily get a bus, car or train between them. NI while seperated by water remains within the UK and therefore doesnt have a border either.

Random wrote: »

Is this not the whole extraditiion thing etc ??

Nope, a crime commited in NI can be arrested, charged and prosecuted within the Republic. Possible Im simplifying a bit here but Im not about to post a huge section of law.

Random wrote: »

How does it actually work then when a Garda is chasing someone down the M1? Do they have to turn off the blues and just drive alongside the "bad guy" once they cross the border? Radio ahead and ask PSNI to come out and assist / arrest ?

Not exactly, you have to ring ahead and even then, seperate jurisdiction remember. The PSNI have to satify their own reasonable suspicion, power of arrest, etc and it doesnt include petty crimes.

Random

So with the whole m1 thing. The Garda are chasing the bad guys. There's 5 or 6 Garda cars chasing up the M1. Once they cross the border they can pretty much do sweet feck all .. they just drive to the next exit with lights off and turn back around?

metman

Random/Eru - in relation to cross-border pursuits like this:


Men arrested after cross-border Garda pursuit
Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 10:55

Two men are in custody in the North after they allegedly forced a taxi-driver to drive them across the Border as gardaí pursued them from Castleblayney, Co Monaghan, last night.

A Garda spokeswoman said gardaí in Castleblayney searched a house at Ard na Lorgan at about 8.20pm.

"A firearm was recovered and a 38-year-old woman was arrested and is being detained at Castlblayney Garda station under section 30 of the Offences Against the State Act," she said.

In what the spokeswoman described as a follow-up operation, gardaí tried to arrest two men, aged 19 and 39, in a taxi at Ard na Lorgan at 8.30pm.

"In the course of the operation, the men threatened gardaí with what is believed to have been a firearm and then forced the taxi-driver to drive off," said the spokeswoman.

Gardaí pursued the taxi.

Two men were later arrested by the PSNI in Keady, Co Armagh.

I doubt there would be any issue with Gardai continuing the pursuit and detaining pending arrest by PSNI. Gardai would be effectively be using 'any person' powers to detain suspects (aka citizen's arrest) for a crime committed pending handing over to a Constable, as is facilitated in UK law.

Random

The Garda wouldn't be able to use their blue lights though and surely any attempt to ram the bad guys off the road etc could get them done for dangerous driving as they are endangering other road users?

It's odd really .. I always look at the US Cops dealing with people fleeing to Mexico on the TV and never really think about our own border ..

metman

Random wrote: »

The Garda wouldn't be able to use their blue lights though and surely any attempt to ram the bad guys off the road etc ..

Why wouldn't they? They have emergency equipment fitted to their vehicle and aren't attempting to impersonate police, so wouldn't be committing an offence here (other than possibly speeding, which isn't going to be enforced under the circumstances).

As regards 'ramming the bad guys', you're watching too much tv! The Gardai do not employ TPAC or rolling roadblock type techniques.

Random

I watch far too much TV. My only real experience watching or hearing about pursuits is UK Cop shows (the US ones are in a league of their own). So I guess this is where I get it from metman. Shocking lack of coverage of the Garda exploits on TV .. but hopefully this will change with the various shows people keep talking about being on the way.

As for the blue lights .. surely PSNI couldn't come down here with their blue lights flashing as only certain emergency vehicles here are allowed use them. PSNI wouldn't be Irish emergency vehicles? So it would work the same in reverse? Or am I just way off?

metman

Random wrote: »

As for the blue lights .. surely PSNI couldn't come down here with their blue lights flashing as only certain emergency vehicles here are allowed use them. PSNI wouldn't be Irish emergency vehicles? So it would work the same in reverse? Or am I just way off?

You need to bear in mind the circumstaces we're discussing, i.e cross-border pursuit (known as 'hot pursuit'). The PSNI would be in the same position going the other way as AGS heading into NI. The ultimate aim is public safety and the apprehension of serious criminals. Neither AGS nor PSNI are going to engage in hot pursuit for a shoplifter.....if you take my meaning.

If PSNI decided to blat down to Dublin, then they'd be on shaky ground sure, but them's not the circs under discussion!

Random

I know there's the law and then there's common sense .. just trying to get an idea of how things work I guess. I'm using the M1 as my point of reference as I guess that's the one way I've used a lot to get to the North.

At what point should the PSNI stop pursuing the car with the 4 armed criminals who've just shot 3 PSNI officiers and 2 civilians? When they reach the M1? When they reach the M50?

I'm aware I'm getting a little bit extreme now and I have taken your points on board. Just trying to see how these things might play out at this point really.

TheNog

This is actually a good point that Random is making. I'm not aware of any agreement between AGS and PSNI or NI and Irish Government that allows either force to encroach on the border in order to continue a pursuit.

metman

Although not clarifying the point definitively, the below item is of interest.

DISCHARGE OF FOUR ROUNDS FROM A PERSONAL PROTECTION WEAPON IN THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND

Date of Incident : Tuesday, 26 June 2001

The Chief Constable asked the Police Ombudsman’s Office to investigate after an RUC officer (Officer A) discharged four shots during a chase that continued over the border from County Armagh into the Irish Republic. The chase began after two police officers travelling in an unmarked car reported that a white Ford Transit van was being driven erratically at Mullurg Road near Tandragee.

The officers gave chase but the van failed to stop despite warning lights and sirens being operated on the police car. The pursuit continued for about 20 miles and more than 30 minutes, during which the van swerved across the road, preventing the police car from passing. At one point an officer from another station attempted to stop the vehicle by standing in the road with his arm raised. He was forced to jump out of the way to avoid being struck. The van finally pulled over in the Republic of Ireland, on a road between border checkpoints 54 and 56. The RUC officers, who had crossed into the Republic during the chase, approached the van. Officer A twice shouted “Armed police” before a man was noticed running across a nearby field. He then shouted, “Armed police, stop or I’ll shoot” before firing two shots into the ground. When the man failed to stop he repeated the warning before firing a further two shots. The officer later told Police Ombudsman investigators that the shots had entered the ground at least 40 yards from the suspect. Officers from An Garda Siochana arrived at the scene almost immediately. They informed the RUC officers that they were in the Republic and took over the investigation.

During their investigation, Police Ombudsman investigators reviewed a range of evidence. This included audio and written records of the RUC’s command and control tape and all notebook entries relating to the incident. Witness statements were provided by the two officers involved in the pursuit, the officer who attempted to wave down the van during the chase, and the officer who produced the radio transmission tapes and associated records. The RUC officers directly involved in the pursuit were also interviewed and the police issue MP5 firearm used during the incident was seized.

A request was also made to the Garda for information about the incident. The Garda sought the advice of the Irish Attorney General, before responding that there was “no mechanism to allow the information sought to be transmitted to the Police Ombudsman, nor does it seem possible for the information to be passed even on a voluntary basis.” Investigators were, however, able to source statements made by Garda officers and by the van driver to the Garda. These were sourced from the solicitor acting on behalf of the van driver.

When interviewed about the incident, Officer A told Police Ombudsman investigators that, given the suspect’s obvious determination to escape, he believed he was dealing with a terrorist-related incident rather than a fuel smuggling operation.

He said the warning the shots had been necessary as he believed the suspect was fleeing from an explosive device. Other options had been tried and failed, including the attempted police roadblock and a request for backup, which had not arrived.

The officer added that he had seen no indication during the pursuit that they had passed into the Republic. The incident happened during the foot and mouth outbreak and he expected all border crossing points to be highlighted. A Police Ombudsman investigator later travelled the same route and confirmed there were no road signs to indicate that the border had been passed.

The officer did not, however, refer during interview to a key element of his previous statement. He had previously stated that the RUC had warned its officers of a “high and imminent terrorist threat” in the run up to the incident. Specifically, this warning referred to a van similar to that involved in this incident being in the hands of terrorists. The Garda had also intercepted a large vehicle bomb the previous day.

The van driver provided two statements in relation to the incident – one to the Garda and one to the Police Ombudsman’s Office. These were found to be conflicting. In his statement to the Garda, he stated that he was collecting diesel for the van’s owner. He said he was unsure if the vehicle was stolen or not, nor whether he was insured to drive it. He panicked when he saw police behind him and decided to head to the border to escape. Once he was confident he was in the Irish Republic he stopped the van, jumped out and ran across a field. As he ran, he heard shots and looked round to see a police officer pointing a gun at him. He then stopped and waited to be arrested. However, in his subsequent statement to the Police Ombudsman’s Office, he claimed the van was owned by a different person. He said he had been collected from his home by this man and driven to a lay-by where the unattended van was parked. He then drove the van, following its owner for a distance, before realising that a police car was behind him. He contacted the owner of the van by mobile phone and said he was told to keep driving and not stop. The owner then pulled over and allowed the van and the police car to pass. The van driver said he believed he had heard a shot being fired as he drove the van. He continued driving until he thought he had left Northern Ireland, then stopped and ran off across a field. As he did so he said he heard five or six shots, one of which, he claimed, had whizzed past his ear. Another went into the ground near to his feet. He then saw a Garda officer come towards him across the field, whereupon he gave himself up. When asked whether a shot had been fired from the car, Officer A said he was certain none had. As it was an armoured vehicle, the windows did not wind down and it did not have a sunroof.

The Police Ombudsman’s Office also established that Officer A had not attended refresher firearms training since July 1998, when he gained a 100% pass mark. The failure to attend refresher training was in contravention of guidelines stating that officers must reclassify in the use of the MP5 every 12 months.

Outcome of investigation:

The Police Ombudsman pointed out that regulations regarding the use of police firearms are governed by the concepts of necessity, reasonableness, proportionality and minimum force. In the circumstances, she said it was “not entirely clear” that the four rounds discharged as the suspect ran away “were necessary to achieve the objective.” It is clear that the individual running away posed no immediate threat to anyone, whatever may or may not have been in the vehicle.” However, she said that while she was “anxious regarding the proportionality of the discharges” the lack of co-operation by the Garda to co-operate with the Police Ombudsman’s enquiry precluded “any adverse conclusion as all facts could not be elicited.” Mrs O’Loan added that the suspect’s account of a bullet having gone past his ear could not be relied upon, given that he had given a totally different account to the Garda. She also described as “unacceptable” the fact that Officer A had not attended refresher training on two occasions as required by guidelines, but pointed out that the PSNI had since issued a force order to reinforce officers’ awareness of the need to keep training up-to-date.

Recommendations for police as a result of the Police Ombudsman’s investigation:

The Police Ombudsman recommended that:
· The Secretary of State should consider whether an approach should be made to the Department of Justice in the Republic of Ireland to seek reciprocal arrangements should similar circumstances arise again. “At a time of development of co-operation in matters of policing North and South, appropriate arrangements are clearly required,” said Mrs O’Loan.
· Officers in charge of District Command Units along the border should consider what action is necessary to ensure all officers are aware of border locations. “There may be very serious legal, political and operational implications for armed officers travelling into another jurisdiction,” she said.
Officer A should receive advice to remind him of his responsibility to ensure that his firearms training is kept up-to-date.

Source

Random

Was the PSNI officer not in illegal possession of a firearm and using a firearm illegally at the time (given he was in the Republic and shooting in the Republic).

Granted, I can see their argument where they claim they didn't know they'd crossed the border etc .. but ignorance is no defence etc.

I'm assuming in this case no action was taken by the Irish authories against the 2 PSNI officiers?

The article is a very interesting read but leaves me more confused than aything.

metman

TheNog wrote: »

I'm not aware of any agreement between AGS and PSNI or NI and Irish Government that allows either force to encroach on the border in order to continue a pursuit.

Nog, the Schengen Acquis covers judicial/law enforcement cooperation between the UK and Ireland....and that's the sum total of my knowledge on the topic.

Random

(Using Wiki as a source .. sorry, I know it's not solid)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement#Hot_pursuit

Hot pursuit

Under Article 41 of the Schengen II Convention, police from one Schengen state may cross national borders to chase their target, if it is not possible to notify the police of the second state before entry into that territory, or if the authorities of the second state are unable to reach the scene in time to take over the pursuit. The Schengen states may declare if they restrict the right to hot pursuit into their territory in time or in distance, and if they allow the neighbouring states to arrest persons on their territory. However, the second state is obliged to challenge the pursued person in order to establish the person's identity or to make an arrest if so requested by the pursuing state. The right to hot pursuit is limited to land borders. The pursuing officers either have to be in uniform or their vehicles have to be marked. They are permitted to carry service weapons, which may be used only in self-defence. After the operation, the first state has to report to the second state about its outcome.

Suggests the 2 PSNI officiers above were completely in the wrong so to speak (assuming they were i plain clothes and not uniforms in their unmarked vehicle).

Also then it has me looking for the agreement which states that NI / ROI police can't go back and forth and what distances etc. (I'm assuming that as part of this agreement they are then allowed to pursue either way over the border unless something else says they can't?).

metman

Random wrote: »

Was the PSNI officer not in illegal possession of a firearm and using a firearm illegally at the time (given he was in the Republic and shooting in the Republic).

Granted, I can see their argument where they claim they didn't know they'd crossed the border etc .. but ignorance is no defence etc.

I'm assuming in this case no action was taken by the Irish authories against the 2 PSNI officiers?

The article is a very interesting read but leaves me more confused than aything.

Random, operations in and around the border (both police and military) resulting in incursions have been the subject of much debate yet little in the way of legal clarification for years.

Yep technically the PSNI cops were committing firearms offences, but in this type of scenario, the waters are muddied......

Interesting topic though and a major growth area for policing between the UK and Irish Republic in years to come.

civdef

Ireland and the UK aren't fully signed up to Schengen, AFAIK.

metman

civdef wrote: »

Ireland and the UK aren't fully signed up to Schengen, AFAIK.

Yeah the cooperation only goes as far as law enforcement/judicial (Acquis)...afaik. My european law is a little rusty :eek:

Random

Wiki says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement#Status_of_membership_and_implementation

Only police and judicial cooperation rules implemented

for both IE & UK although I'm really not sure what this exactly means.

metman

Random wrote: »

for both IE & UK although I'm really not sure what this exactly means.

It means they've held off on free exchange of information such as DNA data/Criminal Records/Intel.....such info has still to be filtered through certain channels and is not openly available between States.....again afaik.

Eru

Your not going to arrest a PSNI officer for stepping over an imaginary line which is probable not well defined anyway. Sure in some areas you probable know exactly where it is but go straight up the M1, at what EXACT point are you in the Republic and in the North? I sure as hell dont know until I see 'Gardai' has become 'Police' on road signs.

Metman,
My undertstanding is that both Ireland and the UK have limited themselves to mutual co-operation for policing purposes as in extradition, warrants, etc but not for entering other jurisdictions which make sense. You can hardly claim hot pursuit from Ireland to France in all fairness.

And that story is as far as I understand, is exactly where the co-operation idea came from but if memory serves (and I am getting old) the whole thing hasnt gone beyond prosecuting 'illegal organisations' and their members on a few occasions.

Maybe, just maybe we should consider actually advertising where the border is? Crazy idea I know but perhaps, just perhaps a sign saying 'welcome to the Republic of Ireland' and vice versa could solve much of this????

civdef

I understand that in some places on the US/Canada border officers can be sworn in as special constables or reserve deputies on the other side to which they normally work on in order to provide assistance in emergencies on either side, a big advantage in remote areas. It would be nice to think at some stage the Troubles would be such a distant memory to allow something similar here.

metman

Eru wrote: »

Crazy idea I know but perhaps, just perhaps a sign saying 'welcome to the Republic of Ireland' and vice versa could solve much of this????

That's just crazy talk!

And hot pursuit to France....I like it....I wonder could I get away with comandeering the Eurostar?

foxtrot-oscar

The only way you can tell on the M1 is the two bridges just past the carrickdale hotel, they have one on and one off ramp with signs saying "AUTHORISED VEHICLES ONLY" there is also a break in the armco which says the same, the border is inbetween the two sets, i presume its where routine garda, customs psni and HMRC etc patrols are ment to do u turns before crossing the border, but other then the m1 bar a change in the tarmac on some roads there is no difference. hard to tell when in a pursuit at night and your just focusing the vehicle more then the road surface i presume

Random

The hard shoulder line colour changes! But yah, I understand your points guys. A nice big sign either way "Welcome to ROI" and "Welcome to NI / UK (depending on your preference!)" would be nice.

I'm not saying the PSNI guys should or should not be done for it but in some areas the law should really be black and white or at least the extent of the cloudyness over it should be defined at least to some extent.

To me it would seem the official policy is "keep going until the other guys tell you to stop".

Eru

metman wrote: »

That's just crazy talk!

And hot pursuit to France....I like it....I wonder could I get away with comandeering the Eurostar?

I can imagine the papers, "a Garda pursuit that took 2 days and involved 12 patrol cars, the garda helicopter and the weekly rosslare to cherbour ferry. During the 23 hours at sea the Gardai and criminals took turns between the bar and chasing eachother through the corridors. It was eventually ended in France when a Gendarme pointed a big gun at everyone"

Seriously though, something needs to be arranged for the border. It is as Random has pointed out, so easy to escape and avoid being arrested.

I remember one story where the Gardai chased 2 lads over the border. The RUC stopped the Gardai from going any further and let the criminals keep going with a smile and a nod. Also the story if the big thick mule in his tunic chasing armed sas men through a field because they were under arrest!

Such was the feeling and co-operation between the two forces but hopefully now, we can get along and do whats in the best interests of justice

Random

Also the story if the big thick mule in his tunic chasing armed sas men through a field because they were under arrest!

I actually laughed out loud at this just now.

Eru

Random wrote: »

I actually laughed out loud at this just now.

You will love the fact that before they ran away they kicked him in the shin then

foxtrot-oscar

Wasnt you was it eru? (the mule not the sas) That isnt the reason your working in a 1 man office is it?

Eru

foxtrot-oscar wrote: »

Wasnt you was it eru? (the mule not the sas) That isnt the reason your working in a 1 man office is it?

He didnt kick me that hard! :P

And the cheek, I wasnt in the job when they still wore tunics on the beat, your thinking of Deadwood

eroo

Eru wrote: »

You will love the fact that before they ran away they kicked him in the shin then

''Shtop in da name of Gad! Get yer arse back here ya luther!''

foxtrot-oscar

Eru wrote: »

He didnt kick me that hard! :P

And the cheek, I wasnt in the job when they still wore tunics on the beat, your thinking of Deadwood

ahh sorry you all look the same to me

klong

foxtrot-oscar wrote: »

The only way you can tell on the M1 is the two bridges just past the carrickdale hotel, they have one on and one off ramp with signs saying "AUTHORISED VEHICLES ONLY" there is also a break in the armco which says the same, the border is inbetween the two sets, i presume its where routine garda, customs psni and HMRC etc patrols are ment to do u turns before crossing the border, but other then the m1 bar a change in the tarmac on some roads there is no difference. hard to tell when in a pursuit at night and your just focusing the vehicle more then the road surface i presume

On the old N1 there is/was a "Welcome to County Louth" sign.

PSNI officers would not have a constables arrest power- but is there such a thing as a "citizens arrest" here? Or would doing a police-style arrest while technically a "citizen" be over-stepping the mark? Doubtless the arrested person would have to be immediately handed over to the Gardai.

Someone earlier mentioned the arrest of the SAS members. As members of the British Army on duty in NI, they had some of the powers of a police constable (NI EPA 73 I think, then later updated by 1978 legislation)- so one perhaps could argue that Gardai could arrest a PSNI member :pac:

ScubaDave

****FAR TOO MUCH LEGAL THINKING.....AHHHHHH****