Another theft

Rew

I wonder is this the same group as the dealer in Tipp and the one up the North? Very worrying either way.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnojojidid/rss2/

Woman and child held hostage by Tyrone raiders Print

21/01/2009 - 13:25:31

A woman and her child were held hostage by raiders in Co. Tyrone last night while her partner was forced to hand over a number of legally-held firearms to the gang.

Two masked raiders, one of them armed, forced their way into a house in the Castlestrange area of Strabane.

They ordered the man to drive across the border and hand over the weapons in a church car park in Corcullion, Co. Donegal.

They subsequently released his partner and child, who are said to be shaken, but unhurt

Rew

A few more details: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0121/strabane.html

Sparks

That's getting distinctly worrying.

Darr

Indeed it is ..

For anyone looking to increase security , dont know if any good but just saw this
http://www.aldi.ie/ie/html/offers/2867_8122.htm

delop

Might some of ye guys in the area be better off handing your devices into a dealership until the Gardai find these fuppers, it seems they are finding out who has dangerous weapons in private hands somehow....

this is the worst case scenario and its coming true, a scenario that some members swore black and blue that did not happen and if it did it would be rare...

Rew

No Gardai over the border

We haven't seen anything like this before sounds like a gang out to tool up (disident republican as suggested by the media Gardai). This guy had 10+ firearms sounds like a dealer which would make 3 dealers targeted so far.

freddieot

Yet again when any person is subjected to a violent robbery there are those that are keen to make some political point, usually at the expense of the victims. I for one feel sympathy for the family involved and contempt for those responsible.

As this refers to the theft of firearms in Northern Ireland by what looks like criminals from here, it could instead be argued that our precautions are generally so good that they now have to cross the border to steal firearms -

One could argue case proven, as they obvioulsy consider it an easier and better risk in NI than here. However, I won't say that, as, it would be as infantile and broad a statement as saying we should all hand up our firearms and wait for the Guards to catch the baddies.

Rew

If they are disident Republicans are they not more likely to be from the North?

In this case the robbery began in the north and ended in the south. Sounds like the bad days of the IRA all over trying to complicate any investigation by hopping back and forth over the border. Potentaily the same group that tried to murder a couple of PSNI officers last year. Co-Op between north and south has probably never been higher then it is these days so hopefully we will see these guys picked up soon. The sad reality of this type of robbery is that its effective aainst almost any target.

delop

freddieot wrote: »

infantile

I guess thats directed at me, I for one was very concerned at the pattern I see developing, and was concerned for your safety as i suspected that there was something odd going on, I thought my post would show concern, but I have either a terrible command of the english language or you take every comment on your form that does not blindly support you cause as an attack on your rights.

I was not being political, but I can tell you this I will get political from this moment on, Ill be sending an email to my local TD to express my concerns about private gun ownership in this country...

Rew

Written text loses alot in the translation, this is out of the ordinary and comes at a time when shooters feel like they are getting the blame for everything.

freddieot

I guess thats directed at me, I for one was very concerned at the pattern I see developing, and was concerned for your safety as i suspected that there was something odd going on, I thought my post would show concern, but I have either a terrible command of the english language or you take every comment on your form that does not blindly support you cause as an attack on your rights.

I was not being political, but I can tell you this I will get political from this moment on, Ill be sending an email to my local TD to express my concerns about private gun ownership in this country...

What pattern - The most recent firearms theft in the State was one from a Garda, an official issued firearm. Perhaps based on your logic, they should not take them home with them in future until a safe and monitored alarm is installed in all their house by the Department of Justice.

Concerned If you were genuinely concerned for my safety then I apologise for my earlier comment. However, it did not seem that way. I based my interpretation of your comment on some of your previous posts and while they are for the most part relatively fair, I do not however detect a concern for the welfare of gun owners.

Lastly, you take exception to one (my) comment, as I did to yours, so now you are going to rush off bleating to your TD about the evils of Gun Ownership. What was the word I used - O yes - infantile.

IRLConor

delop wrote: »

Might some of ye guys in the area be better off handing your devices into a dealership until the Gardai find these fuppers, it seems they are finding out who has dangerous weapons in private hands somehow..

Even if we did all agree to hand in our firearms there wouldn't be enough secure storage with dealers around the country. Not just that, but it would make the dealers even more juicy targets.

Oh and "dangerous weapons"? All firearms are potentially lethal. The day people class centrefire handguns as being somehow more lethal than other firearms is the day that some plonker shoots his mate with a .22 on the grounds that "it's only a .22".

Sparks

Actually, handing them in would be a disaster - garda stations don't have secure storage for firearms, so they'd just store them with the local dealers. So our handing in our firearms would actually make the situation worse by making the dealers more attractive targets!

freddieot

+ Sparks.

They might also throw them out with the rubbish as happened on at least one occasion after one was handed in during the amnesty if memory serves me rightly.

(and that one WAS used to commit a crime )

Sparks

In fairness freddieot, that pistol wasn't deliberately thrown out with the trash...

freddieot

Apologies again, I did not mean to imply it was deliberate. I'm sure it was an honest mistake easily made -
these things happen.
Why just last week I had a wine bottle (empty I might add) in the Brown Recyle Bin when the other half reminded me that it was only for grass not glass.

Rew

freddieot wrote: »

(and that one WAS used to commit a crime )

No it wasn't, it was just found during an unrelated search. I have a link to the news story somewhere.

Anyway we don't have to react so strongly he was only putting forward a suggestion given whats been going on.

TheNog

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, handing them in would be a disaster - garda stations don't have secure storage for firearms, so they'd just store them with the local dealers.

WTF???

What station are you talking about?

AFAIK all district hq have armories

IRLConor

TheNog wrote: »

WTF???

What station are you talking about?

AFAIK all district hq have armories

Evidently not big enough. I'll PM with specifics.

Sikamick

The finger pointing at firearms holders, firearms dealers or Garda that have had there firearms stolen will not solve the problem, all of these people are victims of crime.

No matter what level of security the Firearms Dealer in Tip had, having a gun put to his head and is family threatened would lead him to opening his safe and handing over its contents, as it would with anyone else.

The solution is in the law, sever sentencing for possession of illegal firearms, when a sixteen year old can get bail within a week after murdering a man down in East Wall, this makes an ass of the Law/Judiciary. A rapist released on bail rapes and murders a girl, releasing this person is a crime in itself.

A person caught with a large amount of drugs gets 10 years and rightly so, and on the other hand a person caught in possession of three unlicensed shotguns gets a 6 months suspended sentence and a 500 Euro fine, by the way they weren't belong to his Grannie he smuggled them into the country.

Crazy is all I can say.

Stiffer sentencing that's the only way to solve the crime problem, a survey in the UK asked a number of young people if there was a five year sentence for possession of a knife would they still carry them, the majority said no they wouldn't.


Sikamick

Trojan911

delop wrote: »

Might some of ye guys in the area be better off handing your devices into a dealership until the Gardai find these fuppers

No thanks. That would entail a 40 mile round trip for me before I go down to Kerry to shoot.

And even if Gardai had the space & they were handed into Garda HQ's, which would still be a 40 mile round trip, do you honestly think some won't get damaged, scratched or mislaid etc.

bunny shooter

delop wrote: »

Might some of ye guys in the area be better off handing your devices into a dealership...

Apparently it's the dealers that are being targeted? ......................... hardly a good idea to put even more firearms into dealers and make them better targets :rolleyes:

Maybe if the licensing system was faster dealers might not have as many firearms held on their premises?

TheNog

As has been pointed out so far it has been mainly dealers that have been targeted and you may noticed these thefts are occuring at night. Im sure one of the reasons for them occuring at night is because the criminals have better control over the situation i.e. the owner nor his family have no time to push any panic alarm button in their house or at the business premises because they are being constantly watched and threatened. This gives them a distinct advantage.

The only way I can see to at least take way some of that advantage is for the dealer's premises alarm to be of a time lock nature. Say the business is shut from 5.30pm in the evening and reopens at 8.30am the next morning. Well if the alarm is monitored in such a way that any deactivation between 5.30pm and 8.30am results in a Garda response (would be a high priority call) to the dealers house and premises at the same time. I think this could deter criminals from doing over the dealers.

The only problem I see is it could force the criminals to carry out these thefts during business hours which may put other customers and staff at risk but it would also be a higher risk to the criminals themselves.

What ye think?

Sparks

I think you think RFDs live in the city. Most don't, including all those cases (both recent and historic) where the RFD has been robbed. I also think you're not fully considering the situation - in these cases the dealer had a gun to his head and those of his family. I also think you think the Gardai would respond in minutes to such a callout - even if they were sitting in the car with the engine running when the call came in, and broke every speed limit on the way, they would still have a response time long enough to let the criminals escape simply because of the distance between them and the scene.

The solution here is not to penalise the RFDs with more rules and regulations for having the audacity to be the victims of armed robbery; it is to give the order (and the funding) for the Gardai to hunt down the criminals responsible.

And if nothing else shows that there is no "them and us" situation between shooters and the general public, it's these cases. We are the general public and we are the victims of gun crime. Punishing us is not the solution.

TheNog

Sparks wrote: »

I think you think RFDs live in the city. Most don't, including all those cases (both recent and historic) where the RFD has been robbed. I also think you're not fully considering the situation - in these cases the dealer had a gun to his head and those of his family. I also think you think the Gardai would respond in minutes to such a callout - even if they were sitting in the car with the engine running when the call came in, and broke every speed limit on the way, they would still have a response time long enough to let the criminals escape simply because of the distance between them and the scene.

The solution here is not to penalise the RFDs with more rules and regulations for having the audacity to be the victims of armed robbery; it is to give the order (and the funding) for the Gardai to hunt down the criminals responsible.

And if nothing else shows that there is no "them and us" situation between shooters and the general public, it's these cases. We are the general public and we are the victims of gun crime. Punishing us is not the solution.

Sparks, is that directed at me? Just not sure is all

Sparks

It is Nog, you asked what we thought.

TheNog

Sparks wrote: »

I think you think RFDs live in the city. Most don't, including all those cases (both recent and historic) where the RFD has been robbed. I also think you're not fully considering the situation - in these cases the dealer had a gun to his head and those of his family. I also think you think the Gardai would respond in minutes to such a callout - even if they were sitting in the car with the engine running when the call came in, and broke every speed limit on the way, they would still have a response time long enough to let the criminals escape simply because of the distance between them and the scene.

The solution here is not to penalise the RFDs with more rules and regulations for having the audacity to be the victims of armed robbery; it is to give the order (and the funding) for the Gardai to hunt down the criminals responsible.

And if nothing else shows that there is no "them and us" situation between shooters and the general public, it's these cases. We are the general public and we are the victims of gun crime. Punishing us is not the solution.

Ah grand, Didnt want to post a long winding post without good reason.

I realise dealers do live outside of cities and making a fairly educated guess that all or nearly dealers that have been robbed live in isolated areas far from prying eyes.

My idea is not to persecute the dealers in any way with more regulations. In fact the only change needed would be for the alarm companies in how the dealers premises alarm is monitored differently. I see this as cost effective way of deterring this problem without adding any more cost or regulation to the dealers.

Tbh I cant see how this idea would punish firearms dealers or holders of firearms. Although I have little experience in firearms I am against the banning of firearms. The government approach to this problem is ill concieved and a knee jerk reaction which is not going to solve the problem at all.

Sparks

TheNog wrote: »

My idea is not to persecute the dealers in any way with more regulations. In fact the only change needed would be for the alarm companies in how the dealers premises alarm is monitored differently.

And the timelocks. Which, for the sort of secure storage most RFDs would have, isn't going to be terribly cheap. We're not talking about a small safe here, in most cases you're talking about actual strongrooms.

Not to mention that if someone has a shotgun to your child's head, you don't want to be trying to explain that the door's on a timelock - you want to be giving them everything they ask for, and not risking them getting more frustrated and agitated.

ancienthunter

I think there is nothing better than an alarm system and a dog combined with common sence about locking doors. The whole idea is of course to warn you in advance. ONE WOULD HAVE BAD SITUTATIONAL AWARENESS if you thought a monitored alarm would offer sufficent protection IT ONLY BUYS YOU TIME.

One would also have bad situational awareness if you thought you'd be safer without a gun

So bearing that in mind just reading all the stuff about handing in yours guns is wrong. We are not in the wrong and anyone coming into your home with volience and aggression should be treated with the same if you could pull it off safely and have the upper hand and that brings us back to fore-warning.

I think if this inspired the powers that be to ban types of guns, that some crimimals only THINK are more desirable, because of the very act of breaking and entering a persons home and holding people hostage is un consitutional and wrong. If we get a sniff of anything like this we should jump on the legal bangwagon straight away.

Irish people were never walkovers and HOPEFULLY some of us will not be.

lets just hope the crimimals only have the weak hand guns. I'll stick with my 12g

Rew

Sparks wrote: »

And the timelocks. Which, for the sort of secure storage most RFDs would have, isn't going to be terribly cheap. We're not talking about a small safe here, in most cases you're talking about actual strongrooms.

He means a time locked alarm not a physical lock. It certainly wouldn't do any harm as they all generally already have a decent alarm system so there shouldn't be a cost. It may cut their options down but I doublt it would stop them. If you believe whats reported in the media (big if) this is one gang who are tooling up to setup a terrorist group. Narrowing their options probably wont stop them they need to be cut and the kneees and put away. Easier said then done I know.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

It is Nog, you asked what we thought.

Should that not be "I" ?

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Should that not be "I" ?

Context says not.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Context says not.

Depends whose/what context you/I am referring to

Grizzly 45

If space does permit in your house.
Decoy safe. A gunsafe in a seemingly "obvious" place for them to work away on.Only to find that when they have either broken it open there is nothing but scrap pipes .While your genuie safe is somehere else well concealed in the house.

More towards the gun dealer side of things.
It seems that family cars have been used as the getaway cars.Vechicle Tracking Devices,nowadays are pretty good,work on a 3G,GSM,GPRS coverage and are not stupidly expensive or difficult to fit to your car.[Appx 3ins X4ins black box]
It sure would be handy if you could give the Gardai co ordinates as to where your car is headed via SMS on your mobile.After all,there is no point in them arriving at your door when the horse is long gone from the stable.Thats fine to pick up the bits,but wouldn't be better to get in pursuit of the departing criminals?
They are getting smaller,that the technology could be custom fitted into a riflestock.So pretty soon you could put a "bait gun" in the stock room.If it is touched a micro tilt switch activates the tracker which alarms your or somone else's mobile that it is being moved when it shouldn't be.
There is a great device in the USA,called SENTRY.It is illegal here as it uses CS gas.BUT I would argue that maybe it would be justified in a situation where the inconvience of the criminal is heavily outweighed by the theft of several firearms and the damage they could do.

I will add a couple of other things that I personally think is chronically lacking in peoples security in Ireland. PERSONAL AWARENESS andPLANNING of impending trouble and what to do when it hits seems to be anathema to us here for some reason.

TheNog

Sparks wrote: »

And the timelocks. Which, for the sort of secure storage most RFDs would have, isn't going to be terribly cheap. We're not talking about a small safe here, in most cases you're talking about actual strongrooms.

Not to mention that if someone has a shotgun to your child's head, you don't want to be trying to explain that the door's on a timelock - you want to be giving them everything they ask for, and not risking them getting more frustrated and agitated.

As Rew said I wasnt referring to time lock safes but suggesting if the premises alarm was set up on the same principles as a time lock safe with the dealer setting the times with the alarm company.

The whole idea is an attempt to move or at least minimise the threat to the dealer and especially his family.

sig226

The only way I can see to at least take way some of that advantage is for the dealer's premises alarm to be of a time lock nature. Say the business is shut from 5.30pm in the evening and reopens at 8.30am the next morning. Well if the alarm is monitored in such a way that any deactivation between 5.30pm and 8.30am results in a Garda response (would be a high priority call) to the dealers house and premises at the same time. I think this could deter criminals from doing over the dealers.

That makes sense to me.

I worked in a restaurant, one night a staff member came back at about 4am with a key, turned off the alarm and helped himself to the proceeds. Needless to say the owner was not impressed.

After this event the alarm system was then programmed so that if it is disarmed after midnight the monitoring station is immediately contacted without the alarm sounding. There was a modest charge by the monitoring station for this charge, but this problem was instantly sorted.

I was told that this can be programmed into any modern alarm system.

I do not see how such measures would not inconvenience firearms dealers. Under normal circumstances a registered firearms dealer should not be opening his shop at 4am!!

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is a great device in the USA,called SENTRY.It is illegal here as it uses CS gas.

I like the GPS tracking device on the car, but something in my gunsafe that sprays me in the face with CS gas if triggered? I dunno grizzly, I don't see why I would trust something like that to not go off accidentally when I won't trust the safety catch on the rifles in the safe...

cavan shooter

It still comes down to the type of burglary and aggrevated burglary is very very scary (and Dangerous) for those involved.

What would you do?
A violent individual screaming at you to open the safe with your wife and your family being held hostage in the next room?

Explain to him that they are all on time locks and if he comes back tomorrow at 08.30 he'll have a better chance of getting them, (as the thumps rain down on you) your still shliting yourself.

Or do you hand him the keys and say take them dont hurt my family.

A guard told me only last year that you hand them the keys,

My guns are in the safe, my house is alarmed, I have two panic buttons, I have security lights, I use chamber locks and store ammunition seperate, I recently purchased discreet cctv (God bless Maplin) But if push came to shove and they wanted your stuff, You will hand it to them.

TheNog

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If space does permit in your house.
Decoy safe. A gunsafe in a seemingly "obvious" place for them to work away on.Only to find that when they have either broken it open there is nothing but scrap pipes .While your genuie safe is somehere else well concealed in the house.

More towards the gun dealer side of things.
It seems that family cars have been used as the getaway cars.Vechicle Tracking Devices,nowadays are pretty good,work on a 3G,GSM,GPRS coverage and are not stupidly expensive or difficult to fit to your car.[Appx 3ins X4ins black box]
It sure would be handy if you could give the Gardai co ordinates as to where your car is headed via SMS on your mobile.After all,there is no point in them arriving at your door when the horse is long gone from the stable.Thats fine to pick up the bits,but wouldn't be better to get in pursuit of the departing criminals?
They are getting smaller,that the technology could be custom fitted into a riflestock.So pretty soon you could put a "bait gun" in the stock room.If it is touched a micro tilt switch activates the tracker which alarms your or somone else's mobile that it is being moved when it shouldn't be.
There is a great device in the USA,called SENTRY.It is illegal here as it uses CS gas.BUT I would argue that maybe it would be justified in a situation where the inconvience of the criminal is heavily outweighed by the theft of several firearms and the damage they could do.

I like these ideas above

TheNog

cavan shooter wrote: »

It still comes down to the type of burglary and aggrevated burglary is very very scary (and Dangerous) for those involved.

What would you do?
A violent individual screaming at you to open the safe with your wife and your family being held hostage in the next room?

Explain to him that they are all on time locks and if he comes back tomorrow at 08.30 he'll have a better chance of getting them, (as the thumps rain down on you) your still shliting yourself.

Or do you hand him the keys and say take them dont hurt my family.

A guard told me only last year that you hand them the keys,

My guns are in the safe, my house is alarmed, I have two panic buttons, I have security lights, I use chamber locks and store ammunition seperate, I recently purchased discreet cctv (God bless Maplin) But if push came to shove and they wanted your stuff, You will hand it to them.

Exactly, hand them keys or co-operate. Never ever try to bargain with them or attempt a John Wayne move.

I think there is some confusion regarding my time lock reference. If an alarm was deactivated at 4am in the morning the dealer would still be able to get in but the monitoring company would then alert the gardai

Rovi

The few firearms dealers I know well enough to discuss their security with them tell me that they all have a radio link with the monitoring station, to avoid the possibility of the criminals disconnecting the alarm by cutting the phone lines.

That, combined with discreet panic buttons and duress codes on the alarm panel should provide instant notification of the cavalry even under a hostage situation, provided of course, the unfortunate individual has their wits about them to activate these things.

I've often thought that a pretty cool thing would be to have a very discreetly hidden control panel for the alarm that was the 'genuine' one, and an obvious, exposed panel in a more 'normal' position.
This second panel would also control the alarm, but would be a 'panic button' in its own right, sending the 'panic' signal if it is used at all.


On fixing safes to walls, if you have access to the other side of the wall (and permission from the Commander in Chief), it's a good idea to run bolts the whole way through, ideally welding them to steel straps to form big u-bolts that bind the safe to a big chunk of concrete.
The absolute ideal, of course, is to integrate the safe into the structure during the building of the house.

TheNog

Rovi wrote: »

The few firearms dealers I know well enough to discuss their security with them tell me that they all have a radio link with the monitoring station, to avoid the possibility of the criminals disconnecting the alarm by cutting the phone lines.

Wireless alarms are the best option as opposed to the hard wired ones.

Rovi wrote: »

That, combined with discreet panic buttons and duress codes on the alarm panel should provide instant notification of the cavalry even under a hostage situation, provided of course, the unfortunate individual has their wits about them to activate these things.

Is there duress codes out there that would still deactivate the alarm and notify the monitoring company?

Rovi wrote: »

I've often thought that a pretty cool thing would be to have a very discreetly hidden control panel for the alarm that was the 'genuine' one, and an obvious, exposed panel in a more 'normal' position.
This second panel would also control the alarm, but would be a 'panic button' in its own right, sending the 'panic' signal if it is used at all.

+ 1 to that

Sikamick

Rovi wrote: »

I've often thought that a pretty cool thing would be to have a very discreetly hidden control panel for the alarm that was the 'genuine' one, and an obvious, exposed panel in a more 'normal' position.
This second panel would also control the alarm, but would be a 'panic button' in its own right, sending the 'panic' signal if it is used at all.
_________________________________________________________________

Rovi another idea is to have a second code that will open the safe and activate the panic alarm at the same time. When one is being forced to deactivate your alarm simply input your panic security code, safe opens and Garda are on the way.

Sikamick

Rew

TheNog wrote: »

Is there duress codes out there that would still deactivate the alarm and notify the monitoring company?

Thats exactly what a duress code does. Alam appears to deativate as normal but the monitoring company are alerted and know that that the person has been forced to deactivate the alarm. A raider is none the wiser. The real question is what happens next...

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

I like the GPS tracking device on the car, but something in my gunsafe that sprays me in the face with CS gas if triggered? I dunno grizzly, I don't see why I would trust something like that to not go off accidentally when I won't trust the safety catch on the rifles in the safe...

It's more designed for a gun room than a safe Sparks.It's built into an alarm panel with PIR and key deactivation. Again,it is an active alarm that is designed to prevent theft or burgalry when you are not present.
True a house full of CS isnt very pleasent,but it is easier to deal with by opening windows and plenty of water orremove the irritant from your eyes.Than a lifelong trauma of being held at gunpoint and maybe not knowing wether youwill live even after giving the scumbags everything they want.
Our big trouble here folks is REACTION and RESPONSE time.
Even if the alarm goes off in the house/shop.Our Gardai are still unarmed and now know that firearms have been nicked.This is now a job for the armed boys,lucky if there is an ERU or Branch unit in the area.
But how long will it take to get the local armed unit together, if they have just finished up for the day kitted up and out to the scene and all without knowing are they going to run into the criminals coming their way or waiting for them?Put it like this;as an unarmed Garda would YOU be in a rush to respond to such an alarm?? I wouldn't blame them if they were in no rush with the risks involved.

ancienthunter

The best options are for dealers are to keep things quite. Iam sure media coverage has made things worst.

I can just imagine the crooks "Hand guns boy, Jesus I'd love one of those things. Lets go and get one, I heard so and so had one he was blabing on about it."

So covert instead of overt is the best way to do things.

I also think tracking devices should be placed in a few items in a dealers shop that way it leads you back to the group and the cache.

It would be a great deterent. There would be no way a group could find it and remove it before they were caught. One would have to design a Fully containerised covert gun safe rf alarm when it went off or a report was triggered by other means the clock would be ticking for them when they could'nt find the tracking device(s) a special force will engage the target at the coordinates transmitted by the minature gps tracker and transmitter encased in bullets or encased in gun stocks. They would have to destroy the equipment to find these transmitters.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

True a house full of CS isnt very pleasent,but it is easier to deal with by opening windows and plenty of water orremove the irritant from your eyes.Than a lifelong trauma of being held at gunpoint and maybe not knowing wether youwill live even after giving the scumbags everything they want.

See, I have two problems with that: (1) CS gas is sortof like pepper spray and tasers - they're less-than-lethal, as opposed to non-lethal. And the demographic most at risk from them (the older, more overweight folks) is pretty much the demographic that'd be most likely to be installing this
And (2) if there's someone robbing you with a shotgun, and you spray CS gas at them without warning, they're likely to at least flinch - which wouldn't be something I'd welcome in someone whose finger was on the trigger of the shotgun pointed in my general direction.

Our big trouble here folks is REACTION and RESPONSE time.

Exactly. We've got a responsibility to securely store our firearms and to exercise due care to prevent accidents - we are under absolutely no obligation to somehow resist an attempt at armed robbery. Let the Gardai sort that one out.

Even if the alarm goes off in the house/shop.Our Gardai are still unarmed

See, this is the kind of eventuality they had in mind when they got almost two thirds of the force qualified to sign out a sidearm from the station...

Rovi

TheNog wrote:

Is there duress codes out there that would still deactivate the alarm and notify the monitoring company?

Sikamick wrote:

Rovi another idea is to have a second code that will open the safe and activate the panic alarm at the same time. When one is being forced to deactivate your alarm simply input your panic security code, safe opens and Garda are on the way.

As Rew has already said, that's exactly what I meant by a duress code: a different code that deactivates the alarm, but also sends the panic signal.

My issue with these though is, will the unfortunate firearm owner/dealer have the presence of mind to actually use it?

Suppose the alarm code you use every day (perhaps several times a day) is 1234, and the duress code (which you never use) is 4321.
Now, it's 4 in the morning, you're in your pyjamas and possibly even still in bed, all you can see is a blinding torch and the muzzles of a sawn-off double barrel, you can hear your loved ones crying somewhere in the background, and there's a scumbag shouting at you for the alarm code.
Which number are you going to blurt out?

That's why I like my 'genuine' alarm panel/'panic button' alarm panel idea; there's no duress code to remember, the panel itself is the panic signal.

ancienthunter wrote:

I also think tracking devices should be placed in a few items in a dealers shop that way it leads you back to the group and the cache.

It would be a great deterent. There would be no way a group could find it and remove it before they were caught. One would have to design a Fully containerised covert gun safe rf alarm when it went off or a report was triggered by other means the clock would be ticking for them when they could'nt find the tracking device(s) a special force will engage the target at the coordinates transmitted by the minature gps tracker and transmitter encased in bullets or encased in gun stocks. They would have to destroy the equipment to find these transmitters.

We're getting into "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure" territory here, I think.

Commercially available GPS/GSM trackers are approximately the size of a couple of 50 boxes of .22 ammunition, we're a long way away from miniaturised stuff that would fit into individual cartridges, even 12g ones.
I don't doubt the technology probably already exists, it's just not available to us lowly civilians.

A tracker in the car is an excellent idea though.

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Our big trouble here folks is REACTION and RESPONSE time.
Even if the alarm goes off in the house/shop ...lucky if there is an ERU or Branch unit in the area.

The newspaper said it took a long time for someone to get free and raise the alarm so the issue apparently wasn't response time. But let's say you activate a duress code or otherwise secretly activate a silent alarm. Would you really count yourself and your family lucky to have an armed gang of robbers in your house and an armed response team from the Gardaí outside? What happens next ...

BOBTHESHOOTER

Rovi wrote: »

As Rew has already said, that's exactly what I meant by a duress code: a different code that deactivates the alarm, but also sends the panic signal.

My issue with these though is, will the unfortunate firearm owner/dealer have the presence of mind to actually use it?

Suppose the alarm code you use every day (perhaps several times a day) is 1234, and the duress code (which you never use) is 4321.
Now, it's 4 in the morning, you're in your pyjamas and possibly even still in bed, all you can see is a blinding torch and the muzzles of a sawn-off double barrel, you can hear your loved ones crying somewhere in the background, and there's a scumbag shouting at you for the alarm code.
Which number are you going to blurt out?

That's why I like my 'genuine' alarm panel/'panic button' alarm panel idea; there's no duress code to remember, the panel itself is the panic signal.



We're getting into "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure" territory here, I think.

Commercially available GPS/GSM trackers are approximately the size of a couple of 50 boxes of .22 ammunition, we're a long way away from miniaturised stuff that would fit into individual cartridges, even 12g ones.
I don't doubt the technology probably already exists, it's just not available to us lowly civilians.

A tracker in the car is an excellent idea though.

Here is a simple one for you: Personal experience, I was in a gun shop in Derry NI (of course) about 5 years ago, I got chatting to the owner, he was showing me some of the smaller stock and the conversation went on to 17:05, a knock on the door, 2 x PSNI squads with 10 officers, wanting to know why the alarm was not on at 17:00, no snags when they determined I was not robbing the shop.

Why in Gods name was there not a call to the Gardai when the chap deactivated his alarm at 01:00 in the morning? Also the alarm remained off!!!!!!!!!!! Doo,,,,,,,,,

sig226

Why in Gods name was there not a call to the Gardai when the chap deactivated his alarm at 01:00 in the morning? Also the alarm remained off!!!!!!!!!!! Doo,,,,,,,,,

Because the alarm was not programmed to alert the monitoring station that it should not be disarmed at 01:00am.

This is the point that the Nog has been trying to make.