Patterns / Kata / Forms - why do them / enjoy them?

TKD SC

Hey all,

A wet Wed afternoon q's: for people who practice (or who used to practise them) patterns or kata or forms etc depending on the MA;

Why do you practise them and what do you enjoy or dislike about them?

Thanks!

Simon

Roper

TKD SC wrote: »

Hey all,

A wet Wed afternoon q's: for people who practice (or who used to practise them) patterns or kata or forms etc depending on the MA;

Why do you practise them and what do you enjoy or dislike about them?

Thanks!

Simon

Oh where did it all go wrong Simon?:pac:

TKD SC

Roper wrote: »

Oh where did it all go wrong Simon?:pac:

You haven't heard my own answer to the q's yet!

Tim_Murphy

I'd imagine quite a few people like doing them for much the same type of reasons people like taking dance classes and the like.

I suppose others probably like doing them because they can make believe they are practising fighting techniques.

TKD SC

I might as well put in my own answer!

The last patterns class I actually went to was about 8 months ago. Even before that for the last good while I haven't gone to many at all, but the odd one here and there...Sun morn so good to get you out of bed if nothing else!

When I did go them, in recent times (last 2/3 yrs maybe), they generally annoyed me, irritated me and bored me! I think how stupid to be punching fresh air with nonsense techniques, and wishing I was either in a sparring class, in the gym, out for a run, still in bed, or anywhere else really!

With lots of beginners in the class, there would be a lot of "on the count", and hence stopping and starting as hand positions are altered those vital few milimetres etc and stances are checked. I don't even feel particularly artistic or anything doing them.

One plus would be, when you actually get to do a load of patterns quite quickly in a row. No waiting around, not overly technical, and fly through them. Can even be a good workout like that. The odd time we'd do 2/3 patterns after a heavy sparring session & pad work, so you're wrecked anyway and it's a nice finish off to the class.

But overall, I don't miss them at all (despite the odd pattern move in my kitchen or sitting room while waiting for toast or something!), and not much interest in getting better at them or learning new ones. Wouldnt mind remembering the 12 I know after all the work put into learning them in the first place! But, for me I would much prefer to spend my time in a sparring / conditioning class, learning something new like bjj/mma, or going to the gym / run, reading, volunteering with dogs, etc etc are all way higher on my list than stupid patterns!



Would be interesting to hear from other people who do them in tkd, karate, kung-fu, tai chi, even judo, etc and why they do or do not like them etc?

Furious-Dave

I've explained my position on Kata many times before so I'll keep this brief. I do believe Kata have their place and are important for coloured belts. Each Kata as a specific set of principles that are to be trained. Each Kata will then lead the practitioner onto the next. These principles are then supposed to be expanded in training where the instructor explains different ways to use the same principles, through drills and Kumite. The Kumite, in my opinion, is supposed to develop and advance alongside the Kata until the practitioner reaches Black Belt, when they have "mastered" the basic principles and the training switches almost completely to practical application, and Kata become a "spare time" training exercise, more for maintenance of the basics. There are some Kata, in Karate anyway, that are left until the practitioner has reached Black Belt. Sanchin is one such Kata, though a lot of people believe that because it is a fundamental Kata to Karate that it should be taught almost from the beginning.
This of course the way of the traditional systems, and actually rarely happens even within traditional clubs. I blame this on lack of knowledge/understanding, ignorance, and listening to combat sports people who don't know what they are talking about
I do believe that good pad work is extremely effective for training the basic principles, especially in Combat Sports. Everything can be worked from speed and accuracy, power, footwork and stance work etc, using the wide variety of pads available - focus, thai, kick shields etc.
Hmm, wasn't so brief after all :rolleyes:

joepenguin

TKD SC wrote: »

Hey all,

A wet Wed afternoon q's: for people who practice (or who used to practise them) patterns or kata or forms etc depending on the MA;

Why do you practise them and what do you enjoy or dislike about them?

Thanks!

Simon

I practice kata for various reasons:

Its part of my style and as such required for gradings.
The reason I personally like practicing katas is that all the techniques within the katas have fighting appications and most if not all techniques within a kata can be put into a 2man drill and from there adapted.
I also enjoy performing them in the same way I like to hit a heavy bag for a few rounds.

What I dislike about them: The way they are taught. Often they are treated as a nuisance exercise to get belts. This imo is a waste of time. The instructors should know at least one application to each move of a kata before showing it to the class.

mark.leonard

I practiced them so I could rock the grading floor. When I think back I never did anything with them outside of a grading cycle.

I especially used to like ridiculing practitioners/instructors who thought they helped with actual fighting "You try your downward x-fist checking block, and I will try and kick you in the goin......."

Killme00

I still do Sil Lim Tao every now and again. Not very often but i do it because its like a little memory excercise.

Charlie3dan

I quite like Scott Langley's (he be a rather good karate dude) article from a few years back.

http://www.jks.com.ua/eng/article_algebra.html
(too big to paste here)

It's well worth a read if you are genuinely interested.

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I quite like Scott Langley's (he be a rather good karate dude) article from a few years back.

http://www.jks.com.ua/eng/article_algebra.html
(too big to paste here)

It's well worth a read if you are genuinely interested.

As the silver medalist in the Black Belt pattern division in last year Galway TKD Open (:cool:) I can say that the article linked to above contains a whole heap of nonsense. I stopped ready half way into it mind, I had to stopped after the author tried to compare kata training to algebra. Algebra is contrived too apparently. :rolleyes:

Ger Healy

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I'd imagine quite a few people like doing them for much the same type of reasons people like taking dance classes and the like.

I suppose others probably like doing them because they can make believe they are practising fighting techniques.

What Tim said

Insanesomeone

I practice them because the've played an integral part in keeping many martial arts true to their roots (or so I'm told!), and also because I find them really relaxing!

RealJohn

TKD SC wrote: »

Why do you practise them

I had to to get my blackbelt and still occasionally do them because I occasionally entertain the idea of doing the 2nd dan.

and what do you enjoy

Nothing.

or dislike about them?

Basically, everything from the pointlessness (in my humble opinion) to how boring they are.

I think Tim's first post summed patterns up nicely.

Tim_Murphy

I actually quite enjoyed the half hour I spend practising (i.e. trying to remember) Ko-Dang last year before the Galway Open. Once a year would be enough for me though I’d say. I am planning on winning that competition this year all the same. :pac:

Charlie3dan

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I can say that the article linked to above contains a whole heap of nonsense. I stopped ready half way into it mind,

Christ Tim, you could have at least pretended you had read the article before calling it nonsense. But hey, your mind is made up.

So are you training in patterns or did you just show up at the comp and bust out a silver medal? (Don't worry I'm not gonna say "AH HA, but you still train in kata!" or anything, just asking)

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Christ Tim, you could have at least pretended you had read the article before calling it nonsense. But hey, your mind is made up.

Ok, to be clear, the first half of it, up to and including Part 3 contains a whole heap of nonsense. Maybe the rest of it is better, I'll read it later.

So are you training in patterns or did you just show up at the comp and bust out a silver medal? (Don't worry I'm not gonna say "AH HA, but you still train in kata!" or anything, just asking)

Busted out a silver medal, busted out a silver in the sparring too. :cool:
As I said, I enjoyed doing it on the day but that would be enough for me really, I wouldn't have any interest in training them or doing TKD training in general other than on the very odd occassion.

Tim_Murphy

Read the rest of the article there. It's the same bad arguments I've read time and again, just rewritten a little. The comparison with algebra just doesn't make sense, it will just sound good to some people.

I actually do like the analogy to peotry, it's probably the only good thing in the article. If you enjoy doing your kata, you see some beauty in it and it gives you enjoyment then go for it. Just do it as an activity in itself, don't pretend its anything else.

Charlie3dan

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Busted out a silver medal, busted out a silver in the sparring too. :cool:
As I said, I enjoyed doing it on the day but that would be enough for me really, I wouldn't have any interest in training them or doing TKD training in general other than on the very odd occassion.

Fair play, can't be easy to switch back into TKD mode and do well.

In regard to kata just being an acivity in itself, it really has to be looked at from a bigger perspective. In karate, the main elements are Kihon (fundamentals), Kata (patterns) and Kumite (fighting). The three blend together to form the art. The purpose of kihon is not just to practise technique. The purpose of kata is not just to perform set movements. The purpose of kumite is not just to win. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts as they say.

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Fair play, can't be easy to switch back into TKD mode and do well.

Cheers. I wasn't really all that hard to be honest.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

In regard to kata just being an acivity in itself, it really has to be looked at from a bigger perspective. In karate, the main elements are Kihon (fundamentals), Kata (patterns) and Kumite (fighting). The three blend together to form the art. The purpose of kihon is not just to practise technique. The purpose of kata is not just to perform set movements. The purpose of kumite is not just to win. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts as they say.

Ya, I've heard all the arguments many a time, they don't stand up to much.

Charlie3dan

K Tim. I can see I shouldn't have taken the bait again here.

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

K Tim. I can see I shouldn't have taken the bait again here.

What bait? You posted a link, the link is basically one bad argument after the other, I simply said as much. Sorry if that offends or annoys you.
Do you really think that the comparision of kata to algebra is a good one?

mark.leonard

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Cheers. I wasn't really all that hard to be honest.

I always suspected it you know.

Charlie3Dan wrote:

In regard to kata just being an acivity in itself, it really has to be looked at from a bigger perspective. In karate, the main elements are Kihon (fundamentals), Kata (patterns) and Kumite (fighting). The three blend together to form the art. The purpose of kihon is not just to practise technique. The purpose of kata is not just to perform set movements. The purpose of kumite is not just to win. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts as they say.

I challenge anyone to show me how kata/patterns/forms improve anyone's fighting ability, Karate is not a functional Art, it doesn't help anyone get better at fighting against any person not also using Karate.

Charlie3dan

No no the bait was the original post.
In terms of our discussion I think it could be back and forth for a thousand posts with no progression so i'd rather not get into that.

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

No no the bait was the original post.
In terms of our discussion I think it could be back and forth for a thousand posts with no progression so i'd rather not get into that.

The only discussions were there is no progression are one where one or both sides aren't willing to listen to the other. I am certainly willing to listen to any arguments you may have in favour of kata training (different thread maybe?). Now I doubt you have any arguments in favour that I haven't heard before but then again maybe you do, if so I'd like to hear them.

I have no emotional investment in the effectiveness or otherwise or Kata training so I'm perfectly willing to have my opinion changed.

Charlie3dan

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

The only discussions were there is no progression are one where one or both sides aren't willing to listen to the other.

Spot on right there. You may be willing to listen but your mind is already closed. The majority of your posts in any thread are just to dismiss anything you don't agree with. I shall decline your kind offer of another thread to discuss this. The topic has been done to death in any case.

mark.leonard

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Spot on right there. You may be willing to listen but your mind is already closed. The majority of your posts in any thread are just to dismiss anything you don't agree with. I shall decline your kind offer of another thread to discuss this. The topic has been done to death in any case.

Pot - my God, your coated in teflon!
Kettle - yeah but I don't like patterns either.

The topic certainly has been done to death. I think both training methods can peacefully co-exist as long as Traditional Martial Arts don't pretend that Kata training improves fighting effectiveness. BY all means do them to preserve the history of your art, but don't lie to yourself or others about what their usefulness is and everyone (yourself included Charlie) will be so much the happier for it.

Tim_Murphy

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Spot on right there. You may be willing to listen but your mind is already closed. The majority of your posts in any thread are just to dismiss anything you don't agree with. I shall decline your kind offer of another thread to discuss this. The topic has been done to death in any case.

Maybe you didn't see what I wrote:

ME wrote:

I am certainly willing to listen to any arguments you may have in favour of kata training (different thread maybe?). Now I doubt you have any arguments in favour that I haven't heard before but then again maybe you do, if so I'd like to hear them.

I have no emotional investment in the effectiveness or otherwise or Kata training so I'm perfectly willing to have my opinion changed.

My mind is not closed at all, it's just that I've heard a lot of arguments for kata training, or 'traditional' training in general, and the vast majority was simply bad arguments. Now one should keep an open mind and say that maybe the next argument you read might be better, but after a few years of that it gets hard to keep enthusiasm levels up. But maybe you do have a different way of looking at it and can give me a fresh perspective?

Tim_Murphy

The topic certainly has been done to death. I think both training methods can peacefully co-exist as long as Traditional Martial Arts don't pretend that Kata training improves fighting effectiveness. BY all means do them to preserve the history of your art, but don't lie to yourself or others about what their usefulness is and everyone (yourself included Charlie) will be so much the happier for it.

+1

Niall Keane

I guess it depends on the Kata / Form.
I practice Tai Chi Chuan, and we all know of people you practice the form alone in parks etc. Who can’t fight.
However I find that I have gained a lot of martial strategic knowledge and technique improvement from practicing the long form. There are structural guidelines to its performance, such as for example say keeping the feet shoulder width apart. Now beginners practicing the form don’t, I teach them structure in stand up wrestling, and they get it, but when they move the stances get narrow and long, they over extend, leaving themselves open to punishment. You can, through trial and error when wrestling over a long period of time, discover this truth. Or you can practice the transitions of the styles in the form to acquire this skill as a natural ability. By performing the movements slowly the body first learns to feel the insuffiencies / over extensions in its movement, later after some time of correct practice, learns the measure / feel of good posture and balance, so when engaged in wrestling the opponent’s intentions can be immediately sensed and weighed. This was one benefit I gained from form practice.
The form is strung together as a collection of orthodox techniques that each explores one power / application of force. E.g. step back and repulse the monkey, teaches (if practiced properly (maybe this is the problem)) the use of a vertical circle in attack, white crane spreads its wings a twisting of the waist integrated into a throw, and pat horse high the value of rubbing the spine trapping the hip and lifting / rotating the head of an opponent to throw with ease.
In practice I often combine the above 3 techniques, but it is a good way to teach skills to a student to break down the basic techniques, so they acquire or at least recognise and appreciate all the leverage principles etc. Of each technique. I can teach someone to be a reasonable sanshou kickboxer in about 3 months of hard training, lots of sparring etc. Sometimes they can do quite well, some have natural ability. However when up against a good technical fighter or a far stronger one they fall apart. They have tried to ape techniques, without discovering the principles that make them work. In other words they place emphasis in the wrong place, for beginners this is often speed and power and letting their own bodies fight itself.
Also I find that the form is an arsenal of techniques. They are placed in sequences that flow naturally, and techniques beside each other will always work if one fails, or can act as a counter to each other. I have studied this and developed faints/ draws/ counters etc. That have worked for me in competition. Now I obviously sharpened the skills / strategies on mats sparring first.
The arsenal of techniques also is a way of remembering the hard won techniques of past fighters. It has to be said out of the 48 orthodox san shou applications within the tai chi form I find several of them not to my liking, but I have passed them on and found that some of those techniques become the signature of some of my students. Without the form and spending time practicing orthodox techniques from it they would never have seen such techniques. E.g. I dislike the technique White Crane Spreads it Wings, out of 86 international sanshou fights and god knows how many wrestling bouts I have half used it once. My student Ha Nugen won a European championship in Chinese wrestling a few years back, successfully using it 5 times in one bout.

To summarise form has helped my fighting ability, but only after I could perform it correctly and start programming my nervous system. So the first 2 years gave me nothing, I was trying to remember the sequence, after that the structural lessons of form crept into the fighting, and finally I began to use it as a reference book of techniques and strategies etc. It is now like the Tai Chi Classics to me a teacher to be constantly revisited. Reading the classics won’t make a fighter, neither will practicing a form, but my fighting skill has improved from both of these areas.
I should add that I believe it to be additional solo practice (homework so to speak). I teach and use form in sanshou classes to warm down.

mark.leonard

Niall Keane wrote: »

However I find that I have gained a lot of martial strategic knowledge and technique improvement from practicing the long form. There are structural guidelines to its performance, such as for example say keeping the feet shoulder width apart. Now beginners practicing the form don’t, I teach them structure in stand up wrestling, and they get it, but when they move the stances get narrow and long, they over extend, leaving themselves open to punishment. You can, through trial and error when wrestling over a long period of time, discover this truth. Or you can practice the transitions of the styles in the form to acquire this skill as a natural ability. By performing the movements slowly the body first learns to feel the insuffiencies / over extensions in its movement, later after some time of correct practice, learns the measure / feel of good posture and balance, so when engaged in wrestling the opponent’s intentions can be immediately sensed and weighed. This was one benefit I gained from form practice.
The form is strung together as a collection of orthodox techniques that each explores one power / application of force. E.g. step back and repulse the monkey, teaches (if practiced properly (maybe this is the problem)) the use of a vertical circle in attack, white crane spreads its wings a twisting of the waist integrated into a throw, and pat horse high the value of rubbing the spine trapping the hip and lifting / rotating the head of an opponent to throw with ease.

Just to be clear Niall - you are saying that practicing these forms was more beneficial to you and your students than actual wrestling sparring?

Niall Keane wrote: »

Now I obviously sharpened the skills / strategies on mats sparring first.

I think this is where you hit the nail on the head. Isn't it possible that you have an emotional attachment to your forms that you are clinging to when your mat time is the real source of your ability?

Niall Keane wrote: »

To summarise form has helped my fighting ability, but only after I could perform it correctly and start programming my nervous system. So the first 2 years gave me nothing, I was trying to remember the sequence, after that the structural lessons of form crept into the fighting, and finally I began to use it as a reference book of techniques and strategies etc. It is now like the Tai Chi Classics to me a teacher to be constantly revisited. Reading the classics won’t make a fighter, neither will practicing a form, but my fighting skill has improved from both of these areas.
I should add that I believe it to be additional solo practice (homework so to speak). I teach and use form in sanshou classes to warm down.

Well at least it doesn't take a prime position in the class, your juxtaposition of the functional and the traditional is interesting to say the least, but given your understanding of tactile response so fundamental in wrestling, I find it very hard to believe that you think forms can improve your performance in this or any other area.