Fees protest tomorrow.

dlofnep

Just a reminder

christophicus

Yup, was wondering why there was no mention of it here before. Hopefully the whether is good.

Sully

Going to be brought before the government in April (ie he is pressing ahead with fees).

Not so sure marching in Waterford will have much an impact but there is one happening in Dublin also.

stick-dan

wont be there myself in time but good luck with it all who is representing us.

dlofnep

It's organised by Student union. Ógra SF will be present. Not sure about the other parties.

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

It's organised by Student union. Ógra SF will be present. Not sure about the other parties.

Members of Young Fine Gael will be present IIRC.

I have no idea about the young FF party as last I heard it wasn't much a key issue for them.

Thats everyone isn't it?

dlofnep

I didn't hear anything from Ógra Fianna Fáil, but I haven't been speaking to them in a while. Not sure if it's an issue for them as you've said. Are you a member of YFG Sully?

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

Are you a member of YFG Sully?

Indeed. First year getting into politics proper but have no intentions to take it up the scale despite requests. Im more open rather then a closed supporter, if it makes any sense.

dlofnep

Best of luck with it.

christophicus

Has the SU organised a petition ? I have not seen one around anywhere, seems like one of the better things to do.

This whole student Fee's idea is absolutely rediculous. The whole economic boom thing was braught about by the knowledge econemy, now they introduce fee's and revert back to how it was before the boom ? That makes SOOooooo much sense, great work Cowan!

KikiDee

All,

GOOD LUCK TODAY!!!

At the moment ye're all marching now. I'm there in spirit with ye.

CantGetNoSleep

Im just out of bed, watching Home and Away, drinking a can of Bav and missing lectures, like a proper student

dlofnep

Sully, did you guys join us from college street? Saw ye shuffle up to the front there near the end of the march

Amazing turnout today. All the students should be proud of themselves..

Kidd-o

christophicus wrote: »

Yup, was wondering why there was no mention of it here before. Hopefully the whether is good.

Ohh i blame you for the bad weather...

College st joined in, not many of us to be fair... pity about the weather though

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

Sully, did you guys join us from college street? Saw ye shuffle up to the front there near the end of the march

Amazing turnout today. All the students should be proud of themselves..

Nope but I know those who were there. I only managed to join it at the end due to traffic restrictions!

dlofnep

How's your socks? By the time I got to red square my sign was disintegrating in my hands with the rain.

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

How's your socks? By the time I got to red square my sign was disintegrating in my hands with the rain.

Socks fine. The lads got one of those signs that was printed on the material that for sale signs are on. Poor choice imo as its a pain to store and move!

dlofnep

Where did ye get that banner done? Need to get one done up ourselves. If you find out, let me know.

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

Where did ye get that banner done? Need to get one done up ourselves. If you find out, let me know.

I usually make them up but this time they went with someone else as I didn't have time (a days notice really didn't cut it). Done a few different types. The SU have someone else I believe but iv no idea what they get charged but I find most places very expensive.

Iv offered to help but I don't think there interested judging by the silence :P I usually work with company's rather then student bodies so I guess the formality puts such people off as they usually go for the silly type designs. If that makes sense.

sailor_babii

I thought the protest was great. I shouldn't have been out there coz I'm still suffering from an old whiplash injury. Now thats dedication!
I got given out to after.
Cathy's speech was sorta inspiring. It was funny when she squeaked. Eye of the tiger really revved everyone up.

dlofnep

lol yeah, she squeeked alot..

coadyj

Sully wrote: »

Indeed. First year getting into politics proper but have no intentions to take it up the scale despite requests. Im more open rather then a closed supporter, if it makes any sense.

The only reason i wouldn't support is that they are trying to reform health care to make it a free for all system, this is obviously stupid as most working people can afford health insurance and care and this would only stand to increase taxes.

As for the fees issues you wouldn't be the first generation to experience a fee structure, and by the looks of it you wont be the last. We are in a recession, to many people are waisting the educations system. People go to college and drink and party and barely pass with only a select few actually learning something, these people are still rewarded with a degree which is now becoming a meaningless piece of paper.

If people are determined to go to college there will be an ample amount of student loans to pay the fees which can be payed back when the person is fully qualified and working.

The proof is in the pudding in WIT, look at the Asian students who have to pay €13,000 a year for education and make up the money by working in Ireland as they are doing their degrees, they should be a role model to this lazy generation of the Celtic tiger. Times are tough, college fees are coming back but it wont be for long, its unfortunate that you guys have to be the slumdogs who have to pay the fees but that's life.

I remember when they wanted to bring back the fees in 2004, the usi and all the su's of Ireland ganged up and marched their hearts out to no avail.

On a side note, I know nothing about the grant system, but I assume that the grant program will allow for underprivileged families to send their kids to college, the fees are only really going to affect people who can afford to pay them.

March all you want, but in the end of the day money is tight in the government, all civil servants are being asked to take a pay cut too so its not like students are the only ones being hit, people are loosing their jobs all over the country, have you guys picked up a newspaper recently?

dlofnep

coadyj obviously has the all seeing oracle and understands the financial situations of every single family in Ireland to make such a sweeping statement like that.

Fees will place a barrier there for people who want to go to college. That's the reality of the matter. in times like this, the educational system needs to be pin-point so that the next workforce in Ireland is able to pump tax back into our economy in high tax brackets, which is what many graduates will be.

You're just not being realistic. And we will march all we want, and we will not bow down to Batt O'Keefe. The likes of Mary Harney might be able to splash out for €400 haircuts, but the average student, can't. It's already costing €30,000 - €40,000 for a degree for a student.. With fees, that could go up to €70,000.. Student's are already getting student loans as it is, without fees. Not to mention, the registration fees are nearly doubling. It's not practical. Student's will end up working long hours, and will miss alot of college because of financial pressure.

What you are looking for is a short-term fix, but what our economy needs is long-term stability. An educated work-force can give it that stability.

stick-dan

To be fair now james you cant make that statement because you have no idea what so ever how hard some of us work to go to college. Some of us balance jobs with college and there are times when it becomes a juggle between the two and some of us have to balance missing the odd day of college to get a few hours work so that we can perhaps make the next week or pay our rent.

I'm sick of everyone branding students as alcoholic a55holes who miss passes and scrape classes. IT'S BULL5H1T. rid yourself of that view and come down to the students level for a minute please. I'll agree with you on the fact that there are many asian and indeed easmus students in wit who struggle and work so hard to get through college here because they have huge fees. They decided to come here and learn they weren't forced their choice. It's all fine and dandy to look at these students as role models. Why not look a little closer to home first though. I myself as you know am a third year student in college. I don't miss college, apart from when i have to to work to pay my rent or utility bills, I support myself, I don't drink, smoke or any of that crap. I'm here to get an education end of. And that's not just me I can rattle of handfuls of names of other students who are the same as me and a lot of them are here on this site too. I'm dedicated to what I want to do and I have to work my b@lls off to do it. So I'm sorry don't you dare come in here and brand me the same as the students who ARE PAID IN BY THEIR PARENTS, WHO ARE ALCOHOLICS, WHO DON'T ATTEND COLLEGE, AND ARE ONLY THERE FOR THE CRAIC. Get off that bloody high horse you're on. Perhaps you belong in a university if this is your train of thought or maybe their degrees are worthless pieces of paper too. All i know is i'm working my ass off for my degree and i wont have it besmerched by anyone including idealistic young so and so's who are generalising the student body tarring us all with the one brush. No bloody way.

This country was built on the grounds that everyone should be entitled to free education and the results of such a grounding showed in maybe the last 5-10 years where we had such a healthy ecomomic boom in this country. Never has such a stupid plan being implemented by the government. Look at us. We are in a F()CK1N recession. And our plan is to cut the educational supply lines by restricting the population going to college to the upperclass. All we are doing is lessening the populations intelligence by introducing such fees, inhibiting our opportunities and recreating the social divide between this country's different classes. So bloody what the politicians are taking a pay cut, 10,000 a year off one of their salaries is going to make a difference at all. To be fair if they are making decisions of cutting education incentives they are worth earning 10,000 a year. And no i'm sorry, did you not hear we are in a recession, student loans most certainly will not be available, have you gone into your local bank lately, tell ya what when i get blood from a stone then i might listen to idealistic thoughts about student loans.

Has the oracle any other suggestions?

ec18

In fairness James has some valid points. If you look at countries such as the US, UK and Australia they all have fees and particularly the US fees are crippling to students. Who frequently are in their mid thirties before they have paid back their loans. And I do agree with him that it is more important to have a better health service rather than free third level education.

coadyj wrote: »

March all you want, but in the end of the day money is tight in the government, all civil servants are being asked to take a pay cut too so its not like students are the only ones being hit, people are loosing their jobs all over the country, have you guys picked up a newspaper recently?

civil servants shouldn't be asked to take a pay cut they should be told they are getting one. In the current situation there should be no debate and unions need to be realistic.

dlofnep wrote: »

coadyj obviously has the all seeing oracle and understands the financial situations of every single family in Ireland to make such a sweeping statement like that.

I don't recall any sweeping statements :S

dlofnep wrote:

Fees will place a barrier there for people who want to go to college. That's the reality of the matter. in times like this, the educational system needs to be pin-point so that the next workforce in Ireland is able to pump tax back into our economy in high tax brackets, which is what many graduates will be.

True, but that's assuming that all graduates stay in Ireland. I doubt that many will given the current state of the country.

dlofnep wrote:

You're just not being realistic. And we will march all we want, and we will not bow down to Batt O'Keefe. The likes of Mary Harney might be able to splash out for €400 haircuts, but the average student, can't. It's already costing €30,000 - €40,000 for a degree for a student.. With fees, that could go up to €70,000.. Student's are already getting student loans as it is, without fees. Not to mention, the registration fees are nearly doubling. It's not practical. Student's will end up working long hours, and will miss alot of college because of financial pressure.

True there is a lot of wasted money in the government


And stick-dan given that AIB has recently been nationalised it would been a good vessel to implement a loan scheme.
And although I'm tired of people labeling students as alcoholic wasters you have to admit that the majority of them are only in college because of the current system. No doubt that it has made third level more accessible but has also led to abuse within the system.

Sully

AIB hasnt been natonlised...

Your thinking about Anglo Irish Bank which is well and truely ****ed.

coadyj

stick-dan wrote: »

I'm sick of everyone branding students as alcoholic a55holes who miss passes and scrape classes. IT'S BULL5H1T. rid yourself of that view and come down to the students level for a minute please.

Well, Of course I know people who work hard and done go out parting or drinking etc, but the fact is that even if a small percentage of them are doing this, it costs a lot of money to the tax payer, but its not a small percentage, in fact the crowd YOU speak of is in the minority.

stick-dan wrote: »

I'll agree with you on the fact that there are many asian and indeed easmus students in wit who struggle and work so hard to get through college here because they have huge fees. They decided to come here and learn they weren't forced their choice.

Right, you decided to learn in college, it was your choice, you could have done an apprenticeship, a clerking course opened up a small it repair company etc. They decided to come to Ireland which you should be delighted about because it increases the facilities WIT can provide.

stick-dan wrote: »

It's all fine and dandy to look at these students as role models. Why not look a little closer to home ....

Perhaps you took this out of context, they not only support themselves but they do so while having to pay more then twice the fee structure that is propose, if they can do it why can irish people? (and happy new year to you guys too, if you read this!)

stick-dan wrote: »

So I'm sorry don't you dare come in here and brand me the same as the students who ARE PAID IN BY THEIR PARENTS, WHO ARE ALCOHOLICS, WHO DON'T ATTEND COLLEGE, AND ARE ONLY THERE FOR THE CRAIC. Get off that bloody high horse you're on. Perhaps you belong in a university if this is your train of thought or maybe their degrees are worthless pieces of paper too. All i know is i'm working my ass off for my degree and i wont have it besmerched by anyone including idealistic young so and so's who are generalising the student body tarring us all with the one brush. No bloody way.

Ok quite the rant, but Im not sure what the point is, Im not comparing you to these people, Im giving out about these people

stick-dan wrote: »

This country was built on the grounds that everyone should be entitled to free education and the results of such a grounding showed in maybe the last 5-10 years where we had such a healthy ecomomic boom in this country.

Incorrect, this country has only ever provided free second level education, its only since around 1999 that students have been given free third level education, this disappeared around 2004 and came back again in 2006.

Free third level education came about because of the Celtic tiger, not the other way around

stick-dan wrote: »

So bloody what the politicians are taking a pay cut, 10,000 a year off one of their salaries is going to make a difference at all. To be fair if they are making decisions of cutting education incentives they are worth earning 10,000 a year.

OK, well a civil servant is anyone who works for the government, that can be anyone who is a garda, anyone who is a nurse, anyone who is a public school teacher, not just a politician, so yes that money would make a hugh difference. According to you we should not be cutting salaries either as you don't want it to interfere with education, so where exactly are we going to get the money from?

stick-dan wrote: »

And no i'm sorry, did you not hear we are in a recession, student loans most certainly will not be available, have you gone into your local bank lately, tell ya what when i get blood from a stone then i might listen to idealistic thoughts about student loans.

Yawn, well obviously you education isn't in finance banks like BOI, AIB and RBOS are going to be bending over backwards to give loans to people who are getting them to get an education, this will tie these educated people in with the bank for the rest of their life's, people who would have only waisted an education wont go to college and therefore the repayment risk factor is reduced, unlike the sub prime mortgages that got us in to this whole mess.

stick-dan wrote: »

Has the oracle any other suggestions?

Wow, very witty, repeating someone else's joke.

If were going on rants here, has it ever occurred to you that your just being selfish, I'm really sorry your going to have pay fees next year, but you will get by, consider the thousands of Irish people who have just had their pension flushed down the toilet because scumbag Americans wouldn't pay their bills, maybe you don't remember the 80's but it was miserable, there was no form of affirmative action taking place, we may have to deal with fees for a few year, but on the grand scale of things it wont be too long. And you should realise that by paying fees now you will allow them to be abolished in the next few years, not paying fees is just going to make matters worse.


oh and @dlofnep sorry i didnt respond to any of you arguments but they were just utter rubish.

dlofnep wrote:

What you are looking for is a short-term fix, but what our economy needs is long-term stability.

Sorry, What I am looking for is a long term fix, what we need is money, your just looking for free fees, and i meant that there is no point marching because your not going to accomplish anything.

stick-dan

coadyj wrote: »

Well, Of course I know people who work hard and done go out parting or drinking etc, but the fact is that even if a small percentage of them are doing this, it costs a lot of money to the tax payer, but its not a small percentage, in fact the crowd YOU speak of is in the minority.

Point taken and i utterly agree there are certain people in college who do what you have highlighted there, but since they are wasting taxpayer money surely the people from the better off familes could be doing their share and instead of leaching off the state, pay their fees, maybe this could put a small dent in the costs you speak of.

coadyj wrote: »

Right, you decided to learn in college, it was your choice, you could have done an apprenticeship, a clerking course opened up a small it repair company etc. They decided to come to Ireland which you should be delighted about because it increases the facilities WIT can provide.

I personally couldn't care that they decided. Alot of that money is paid in embassey fees once the college receives it. They don't just charge the asian students double for the laugh like. It goes on embassey fees and governmental visa documents and certification. The asian guys in my class receive no extra tutor time yet they are charged the 13,000. It's not benefitting WIT, WIT are only charging what they have to pay the government.

coadyj wrote: »

Perhaps you took this out of context, they not only support themselves but they do so while having to pay more then twice the fee structure that is propose, if they can do it why can irish people? (and happy new year to you guys too, if you read this!)

Happy New Year Indeed. Year of the Ox is it? correct me if i'm wrong. Because how can we pay the fees they are paying when we are in a recession climate like we are. There aren't as many part-time jobs out there for students. Some of your own mates have been let go due to the times. So tell me how will they pay fees now?

coadyj wrote: »

Ok quite the rant, but Im not sure what the point is, Im not comparing you to these people, Im giving out about these people

You're generalising students, and in the process generalising yourself, If you want to be branded as an alcoholic, lecture missing, scraping by student by all means do but please refrain from labelling me the same.:)

coadyj wrote: »

Incorrect, this country has only ever provided free second level education, its only since around 1999 that students have been given free third level education, this disappeared around 2004 and came back again in 2006.
Free third level education came about because of the Celtic tiger, not the other way around

What and you really think second level fees won't be introduced. Because we were promised before that fees would never be reintroduced, oh wait..they were.:rolleyes:

coadyj wrote: »

OK, well a civil servant is anyone who works for the government, that can be anyone who is a garda, anyone who is a nurse, anyone who is a public school teacher, not just a politician, so yes that money would make a hugh difference. According to you we should not be cutting salaries either as you don't want it to interfere with education, so where exactly are we going to get the money from?

I never said don't cut salaries so please refrain from selective quoting unless your good at it. I said taking a measly 10,000 from the shall we say higher profile politicians a year will make no difference. And as ec18 said why are we asking them to take a cut make them bloody well take a cut. Want to get some more money, well how about taxing the higher earners of this country, make them pay some proper tax and contribte back to the economy that made them wealthy instead of watching it fall around their feet as the real misers show their faces. How about taxing people who own property as in who have multiple homes, their is no tax on owning 3, 4 even 5 houses which a lot of people own. Wouldn't that bring in a lot of money.

coadyj wrote: »

Yawn, well obviously you education isn't in finance banks like BOI, AIB and RBOS are going to be bending over backwards to give loans to people who are getting them to get an education, this will tie these educated people in with the bank for the rest of their life's, people who would have only waisted an education wont go to college and therefore the repayment risk factor is reduced, unlike the sub prime mortgages that got us in to this whole mess.

Yawn obviously your education was in grammar, press the preview button it's your friend. A few mistakes is ok but damn! Anyway have you tried to get a loan lately? Want to get me one so? My current status for the form by your reckoning would be:

I'd like to borrow 10,000 please. I promise to attend some classes pending not being hungover, and also to pass if i show up for my exams and oh yeah pay my loan off on time;)

Occupation : Student
Status : Alcoholic (Generalisation)
Acedemic target : Ah ya know i might show up if im not hungover.
Current financial status : Recession duh!
Repayment term : Whenever the dole cheque comes in.

See coadyj like that banking add said a few years back about student loans.
"No problem because when you start making it*(bull5h1t) we do too":rolleyes:

coadyj wrote: »

Wow, very witty, repeating someone else's joke.

awwww thanks:)

coadyj wrote: »

If were going on rants here, has it ever occurred to you that your just being selfish, I'm really sorry your going to have pay fees next year, but you will get by, consider the thousands of Irish people who have just had their pension flushed down the toilet because scumbag Americans wouldn't pay their bills, maybe you don't remember the 80's but it was miserable, there was no form of affirmative action taking place, we may have to deal with fees for a few year, but on the grand scale of things it wont be too long. And you should realise that by paying fees now you will allow them to be abolished in the next few years, not paying fees is just going to make matters worse.

But didn't we pay fees before and weren't they supposed to be abolished by now. I'm not being selfish. Come off of it will ya. The true story is. The wealthy don't pay their share of taxes. The less well off are priced out of the education system and this country would be better led by a bunch of those drunken students you go on about. I'm sorry for those who have their pension flushed down but i feel worst for the country at large due to the fact that this recession will last much longer if the government insist on watering down our education system and depriving us of graduates who lets face it are the people who will lead us out of a recession in the future. Sit tight kids, because introducing fees means less degrees.

coadyj wrote: »

oh and @dlofnep sorry i didnt respond to any of you arguments but they were just utter rubish.

That's just not nice he listened to your generalisation, ooops sorry i meant post.:rolleyes:

coadyj wrote: »

Sorry, What I am looking for is a long term fix, what we need is money, your just looking for free fees, and i meant that there is no point marching because your not going to accomplish anything.

Well at least he's trying, you should support the student body you are a part of. It's called unity, try it sometimes.

dlofnep

ec18 wrote: »

I don't recall any sweeping statements :S

So you missed this part then?

coadyj wrote:

People go to college and drink and party and barely pass with only a select few actually learning something, these people are still rewarded with a degree which is now becoming a meaningless piece of paper.

ec18 wrote: »

True, but that's assuming that all graduates stay in Ireland. I doubt that many will given the current state of the country.

I don't know if you noticed or not, but Ireland isn't the only country in the world to be hit economically. We expect our economy to re-stabilise at some point. The vast majority of people will stay in Ireland. Their high-tax bracket will give alot of funds back to the Irish economy.

ec18 wrote: »

And although I'm tired of people labeling students as alcoholic wasters you have to admit that the majority of them are only in college because of the current system. No doubt that it has made third level more accessible but has also led to abuse within the system.

I and everyone in my class in college is there to earn a degree. A few wasters here and there shouldn't be used as a benchmark for the average student in colleges across Ireland.

coadyj wrote: »

oh and @dlofnep sorry i didnt respond to any of you arguments but they were just utter rubish.

Opposed to the utter tripe you've been posting?

coadyj wrote: »

Sorry, What I am looking for is a long term fix, what we need is money, your just looking for free fees, and i meant that there is no point marching because your not going to accomplish anything.

Free fees? Well there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one. I'm looking for free education, which will enable everyone a fair shot at getting an education. You want to talk about my points being rubbish? But yet, you spurt out nonsense labelling students as a bunch of drunks who are abusing the system.

And don't you dictate to me what has merit and what doesn't. If we march, it is because we are voicing our disgust at our Government. We have every right to do so, and all generations in every country in the world has done so for various issues, from politics to civil rights.

ec18

dlofnep wrote: »

So you missed this part then?

Obviously since I stated that :P

coadyj wrote: »

The only reason i wouldn't support is that they are trying to reform health care to make it a free for all system, this is obviously stupid as most working people can afford health insurance and care and this would only stand to increase taxes.

None There

coadyj wrote:

As for the fees issues you wouldn't be the first generation to experience a fee structure, and by the looks of it you wont be the last. We are in a recession, too many people are wasting the education system. People go to college and drink and party and barely pass with only a select few actually learning something, these people are still rewarded with a degree which is now becoming a meaningless piece of paper.

Personal opinion not a generalisation. In fact a master's is now becoming the new degree. So degree's have gone down in value and in the next few years degree's will become the new Leaving Cert. As James Pointed out most people who go to college do only barely scrape a pass degree. Your class may be there to get there degree but how many of ye are aiming for 1:1 degree?

coadyj wrote:

If people are determined to go to college there will be an ample amount of student loans to pay the fees which can be payed back when the person is fully qualified and working.

The proof is in the pudding in WIT, look at the Asian students who have to pay €13,000 a year for education and make up the money by working in Ireland as they are doing their degrees, they should be a role model to this lazy generation of the Celtic tiger. Times are tough, college fees are coming back but it wont be for long, its unfortunate that you guys have to be the slumdogs who have to pay the fees but that's life.

I remember when they wanted to bring back the fees in 2004, the usi and all the su's of Ireland ganged up and marched their hearts out to no avail.

On a side note, I know nothing about the grant system, but I assume that the grant program will allow for underprivileged families to send their kids to college, the fees are only really going to affect people who can afford to pay them.

March all you want, but in the end of the day money is tight in the government, all civil servants are being asked to take a pay cut too so its not like students are the only ones being hit, people are loosing their jobs all over the country, have you guys picked up a newspaper recently?

nope no generalisations there

dlofnep wrote:

I don't know if you noticed or not, but Ireland isn't the only country in the world to be hit economically. We expect our economy to re-stabilise at some point. The vast majority of people will stay in Ireland. Their high-tax bracket will give alot of funds back to the Irish economy.

Yes but if every country is the same would not prefer to be unemployed somewhere with a better climate ? :P

dlofnep wrote:

And don't you dictate to me what has merit and what doesn't. If we march, it is because we are voicing our disgust at our Government. We have every right to do so, and all generations in every country in the world has done so for various issues, from politics to civil rights.

You do have a right to march and I bet Batt will be quaking in his boots at the people standing outside the dail all the way to his car before the Gardai clear a path for him out of the dail. You have a right to march and express your opinion and I'll probably be there too. But just because you have a right to doesn't make it any less futile

ec18

Sully wrote: »

AIB hasnt been natonlised...

Your thinking about Anglo Irish Bank which is well and truely ****ed.

ah yes that's the one my bad

Kidd-o

We were actually chattin about the auld hardship etc today in class...

the president as a civil servent makes an INSANE 332,000€ euro a year, plus flying places, the cars, etc etc never actually having to pay for her own things anyway.

isnt that crazy?! i reckon i know where we could save a few bob

dlofnep

Leaving tomorrow morning for Dublin. If you're going, pop over to the students union today before close. It's only €5 for the bus.

Sully

Best of luck lads, Dublins a mess with snow and traffic is very bad.

Just back from Cork and the weather hasnt been great on route. Shattered now, so wont be going tmrow.