Kurt Warner: Hall of Fame bound?

themont85

So Kurt Warner leads the Cardinals to their first ever Super Bowl at the age of 37. His 3rd Superbowl, and in a very select group who has gone to the SB with 2 different teams as starting QB. He has had some eratic seasons, notably at the tail end of his Ram career and at the Giants. He was the QB for the 'Greatest show on turf' and now has brought a perennual loser to the big game.

Do you think he is HOF worthy?

figs86

he's certainly had an interesting career!

4 pro bowls, 2 x nfl mvp, superbowl mvp and a superbowl ring.....and a superbowl yet to played?

yeah he's up there, especially as he's only played ten seasons!

great stats, maybe a 2nd superbowl ring shy of HOF?

eagle eye

figs86 wrote: »

he's certainly had an interesting career!

4 pro bowls, 2 x nfl mvp, superbowl mvp and a superbowl ring.....and a superbowl yet to played?

yeah he's up there, especially as he's only played ten seasons!

great stats, maybe a 2nd superbowl ring shy of HOF?

You don't need rings for the Hall of Fame. Example would be Jim Kelly;)

davyjose

figs86 wrote: »

great stats, maybe a 2nd superbowl ring shy of HOF?

Just like Manning and Favre???

There seems to be a kind of snobbery against Warner, presumably because he came the long way round and was later discarded by the Rams*.
The facts are, he's in his 3rd Superbowl this week, he's got a ring, he's thrown huge yardages on numerous seasons (Every time he's played a full 16 games, he's thrown 4,000+), and he's done this all without much of a defense. If he's not HOF bound then I don't know who is.

*The Rams threw away a franchise QB when they lost the Super bowl (admittedly he had some problems, butwhere are they now?), the Cards start the guy this season and make the Superbowl straight away!!!

Chucky the tree

davyjose wrote: »

Just like Manning and Favre???

There seems to be a kind of snobbery against Warner, presumably because he came the long way round and was later discarded by the Rams*.
The facts are, he's in his 3rd Superbowl this week, he's got a ring, he's thrown huge yardages on numerous seasons (Every time he's played a full 16 games, he's thrown 4,000+), and he's done this all without much of a defense. If he's not HOF bound then I don't know who is.

*The Rams threw away a franchise QB when they lost the Super bowl (admittedly he had some problems, butwhere are they now?), the Cards start the guy this season and make the Superbowl straight away!!!

I disagree. I think when talking hall of fame everything should be taken in account and not just rings/mvp's/pro-bowls. Warner has only played every single regular season game 3 times, Manning's done it every year since 98. Also it's not like they just started Warner out of the blue and he turned them into world beaters, he's been there since 05 and played 14 games last year. For me it's a close one, I am not saying he doesnt deserve but I certainly dont think he's a shoe in.

davyjose

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I disagree. I think when talking hall of fame everything should be taken in account and not just rings/mvp's/pro-bowls. Warner has only played every single regular season game 3 times, Manning's done it every year since 98. Also it's not like they just started Warner out of the blue and he turned them into world beaters, he's been there since 05 and played 14 games last year. For me it's a close one, I am not saying he doesnt deserve but I certainly dont think he's a shoe in.

Yeah but in the 11 games he started last year, he had more yards than anyone else, including Brady. To be honest, since he's been the starting QB in Arizona, he kinda has turned them around out of the blue.
I'm not saying it comes down to just yards, but that's were the Superbowls and MVP's come into play. Those three times he played a full season, he was MVP twice and a candidate for it this year too.

But the fact he's played in only 3 full seasons, and the fact he wasn't drafted shows a huge lack of judgement by those teams that have struggle to find a decent QB over the last 15 years. And TBH the fact that he's made all his achievements with comparatively so few games under his belt, and such a stop-start career makes it even more impressive in my eyes.

We'll see, but if he doesn't make the HOF, I'm going to take a long hard look at who has.

Royal Seahawk

If he does the business in 2 weeks he's a lock i reckon. If he doesn't i'd rate his chances at no better than 50-50.

figs86

figs86 wrote: »

he's certainly had an interesting career!

4 pro bowls, 2 x nfl mvp, superbowl mvp and a superbowl ring.....and a superbowl yet to played?

yeah he's up there, especially as he's only played ten seasons!

great stats, maybe a 2nd superbowl ring shy of HOF?

when i said the comment about the 2nd superbowl ring i meant if he gets it hes a sure thing, if not its debatable

he has achieved a huge amount in spite of everyone passing on him and he kept going - maybe those involved dont want to highlight these sort of mistakes?

hope he gets it, showed huge strength of character to keep going and has achieved a lot in a limited amount of time

though maybe he wouldnt have achieved so much if he had stayed at green bay as a 2nd or 3rd string QB instead of being let go

Chucky the tree

davyjose wrote: »

Yeah but in the 11 games he started last year, he had more yards than anyone else, including Brady. To be honest, since he's been the starting QB in Arizona, he kinda has turned them around out of the blue.
I'm not saying it comes down to just yards, but that's were the Superbowls and MVP's come into play. Those three times he played a full season, he was MVP twice and a candidate for it this year too.

But the fact he's played in only 3 full seasons, and the fact he wasn't drafted shows a huge lack of judgement by those teams that have struggle to find a decent QB over the last 15 years. And TBH the fact that he's made all his achievements with comparatively so few games under his belt, and such a stop-start career makes it even more impressive in my eyes.

We'll see, but if he doesn't make the HOF, I'm going to take a long hard look at who has.

You also must take into accountant the teams he played for. The greatest show on turf with the Rams with 2 class WR's and now with the Cardinals who have probaly the best WR duo in the game. It's one of those picks that if he got in you cant have any complaints but if he did make it I wouldnt be hugely shocked either.

I hope he wins in two weeks anyway.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

You also must take into accountant the teams he played for. The greatest show on turf with the Rams with 2 class WR's and now with the Cardinals who have probaly the best WR duo in the game. It's one of those picks that if he got in you cant have any complaints but if he did make it I wouldnt be hugely shocked either.

I hope he wins in two weeks anyway.

I have to agree with davyjose mostly on this one but you are right having those recievers have helped. But ask yourself this..... Why couldnt Bulger or Leinart get success with the same Recievers? The fact of the matter is Warner has used his strengths and the teams strengths and turned things around for the Cards. Sure there is alot of what ifs but we can't deny him what he has produced. My opinion I think win or lose and a couple more seasons with the Cards with their ever growing strengths he will definitely be a HOF candidate.

eagle eye

Well regardless of what happens from here on in, I think he will make it, maybe not in his first year of eligilbility but at some point he will be there.

Chucky the tree

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I have to agree with davyjose mostly on this one but you are right having those recievers have helped. But ask yourself this..... Why couldnt Bulger or Leinart get success with the same Recievers? The fact of the matter is Warner has used his strengths and the teams strengths and turned things around for the Cards. Sure there is alot of what ifs but we can't deny him what he has produced. My opinion I think win or lose and a couple more seasons with the Cards with their ever growing strengths he will definitely be a HOF candidate.

Infairness to bulger he's not far behind Warner in total yards. It's also a bit harsh to say judge the Rams current position on the QB suggesting if they had Warner on team they would be in the superbowl or even close to it. I dont think releasing Warner when they did was so bad either. Up until this year it was probaly justified and Warner has be given plenty of chances to shine and he hasnt particuarly done well. He's also been very injury prone aswell. However if he does go another few seasons and does well then I wouldnt argue with it. I'm just saying if he was to retire this year after the Superbowl it would be a tough call.

Dodge

Huge Warner fan here. I think it'll be a disgrace if he doesn't get there. His supposedly worst season in the league was when the Giants benched him after a 5-4 start (Eli finished the season 1-6). That was a very poor Giants team though (his Qb rating was above 85)

He's started 101 games and has thrown for over 28,000 yards. And has a completion percentage of over 65%. Only Pennington has a better completion rate but his yards are nothing like warner. In addition to the 2 MVPs and the Superbowl win and MVP, he has 3 perfect Qb games (no one has more). He's thrown 40 TDs in a season, he has the two highest passing yards in the Superbowl, he's thrown for over 300 yards nearly 50% of the time.

Every QB in the hall of Fame had receivers to work with. Warner's no different to the rest. Was Steve Young punished for working with Jerry Rice?

jdivision

I think he's in the hall of very good, but not the hall of fame to be honest. Benched too many times. Still a wonderfully inspiring story of triumph through adversity.

evil_seed

what jdivision said

kryogen

he is a tricky one, statistically i think he should be there, he ticks all the right boxes, but i dunno, maybe its my intense dislike of the cards has me thinking he doesnt deserve it, i guess since he ticks the boxes he deserves it

what more can you ask of him sure

jdivision

There's a very interesting piece on cnnsi.com by Cold Hard Football Facts comparing Manning and Warner. Some surprising stats there!

Dodge

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/01/21/chff/index.html?eref=T1

here's that article. Makes the case that warner is better than Peyton

heyjude

eagle eye wrote: »

You don't need rings for the Hall of Fame. Example would be Jim Kelly;)

And winning two Superbowls and being a Superbowl MVP doesn't guarantee Hall of Fame status either - example Jim Plunkett

B.E.S.T.

He`s not Payton, But he is a lock.
Came from the unknown to win Superbowls with the Rams.Gets chucked out.
Does the rounds for a while and pops up in a SuperBowl again It`s not luck, he is that good and seriously competitive, Did ye see him jawing with his head coach walking off after the first series last week. Takes a special player to come back from obscurity like he did. Remember he`s supposed to be backing up Lienart.
He`s in.

Karlusss

Won't get in first ballot, because in the grand scheme of things, he's not Peyton Manning (i.e. the best quarterback of his period in the game), Tom Brady (insane statistical feats and consistent success) or Brett Favre (and all the 4th-and-100 inspirational things he's done).

But I think he deserves it. People talking about the Rams situation as the dropping of a Franchise QB and then the Cards taking him up as him picking up where he left off is ridiculously short-sighted.

He wasn't producing and it looked like he was shot as a player. There's no reason to think that he would've eventually ended up like this if he stayed in his rut at the Rams with Bulger staying behind him or -more likely- being traded away. Sometimes players need a kick up the hole, and I think the season in NY and then the fact that it was "Matt's team" in Arizona when he got there made him righteously indignant enough to still think he had something to prove.

And he proved it.

Cardinals one is even more impressive than the Rams Superbowls (I say this as a Rams fan) because... they have no running game. At all.

Marshall Faulk vs. 32 ypg committee? Warner is a great QB - and the team doesn't even like him because he's a proselytising Christian! They wouldn't go to his barbeque!

Hynzie

Karlusss wrote: »

They wouldn't go to his barbeque!

ha ha. that was a good article!

Rented Mule

jdivision wrote: »

I think he's in the hall of very good, but not the hall of fame to be honest. Benched too many times. Still a wonderfully inspiring story of triumph through adversity.

I think you have to factor in the injuries that he was playing through at the time. He did have a stretch where he 'disappeared from the radar' for most of the 00's, but his football resurection has been amazing to watch in the Desert.

Two Super Bowl rings would definitely sway my opinion on the matter towards voting him into Canton.

Rented Mule

heyjude wrote: »

And winning two Superbowls and being a Superbowl MVP doesn't guarantee Hall of Fame status either - example Jim Plunkett

I spent alot of time watching those Raider teams, and have to say that Plunkett is not in the same league as Warner.

Karlusss

Kurt Warner Super Bowl stats:

24/45 for 414 yds and 2 TDs
28/44 for 365 yds and 1 TD
31/43 for 377 yds and 3 TDS

Average of 385 yds per Super Bowl

Max Power1

jdivision wrote: »

I think he's in the hall of very good, but not the hall of fame to be honest. Benched too many times. Still a wonderfully inspiring story of triumph through adversity.

defintely agree here... i was a bit taken aback when Warners name was mentioned in the same sentence as HOF.. in fairness apart from his time at the Rams he's been in and out of starting jobs and been inconsistant.

Dodge

Max Power1 wrote: »

defintely agree here... i was a bit taken aback when Warners name was mentioned in the same sentence as HOF.. in fairness apart from his time at the Rams he's been in and out of starting jobs and been inconsistant.

He had one year with a dreadful Giants team (and was 5-4 with ok numbers before being benched for the "coming of Eli") and a year when the Cardinals went for their No 1 pick ahead of him. You can't blame him for not been giving the oppurtunity in his career earlier.

He's had as long a productive career as someone like Steve Young. He's performed superbly now in 3 superbowls. If the cardinals managed to stop that last Pittsburgh drive last night, Warner's looking at 2 rings, 2 MVPs and 2 superbowl MVPs

davyjose

Over the course of this season Warner has earned nothing but respect from me.

Going from "how the hell did this back-up QB get 2 MVP's and a superbowl" to "Oh, that's why." A class act.

TheHeadhunter

Having seen him play live twice and watch him heave that ball downfield (which is just awe inspiring), add that to last nights showing and he is a lock for the HOF. I really hope he comes back for another year because with Fitzgerald and Boldin and lets not forget Breaston he definitly has the tools and the ability to go for another MVP type season.

Karlusss

I think Boldin's going in Free Agency and to be honest I think he might retire.

tallaghtoutlaws

Karlusss wrote: »

I think Boldin's going in Free Agency and to be honest I think he might retire.

Boldin will be a free agent. Talks floating around saying that Larry Fitz is willing to re-negotiate his contract to convince Boldin to stay.

Karlusss

Guy having fights with his OC in the Championship game doesn't bode well for his chances of staying. I think he wants to be a number 1 as well. Not in his character to be one part of Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin maybe.

If he does go on the market though, that's Anquan Boldin and TJ Houshmandzadeh coming out the same season. Maybe some other elites too, I don't know. Will be interesting to watch though. I'd love to see either at the Rams...

Dodge

Thought I bring this thrad back to life

Karlusss

Karlusss wrote: »

I think Boldin's going in Free Agency and to be honest I think he might retire.

I still think this. Ignore the year that passed...

RichTea

Yes

LuckyLloyd

Karlusss wrote: »

I still think this. Ignore the year that passed...

Shaping up to be a pretty good year in the difference.

Kurt Warner is a certain HoF selection after last season.

TheHeadhunter

there is no question about it, Kurt Warner will end up in the Hall of Fame.

cooker3

Without a doubt.

frostie500

One thing I always wondered was with the Hall of Fame being called the 'Pro Football Hall of Fame' are a player's successes in other leagues like Warner in Arena and NFL Europe taken into account?

I'd view Warner as Hall worthy but the one thing is that there are so many players now being tabbed as 'future hall of famers' that the selection of a player can take a considerably longer time then in the past when so many went in on their first balot

LuckyLloyd

frostie500 wrote: »

One thing I always wondered was with the Hall of Fame being called the 'Pro Football Hall of Fame' are a player's successes in other leagues like Warner in Arena and NFL Europe taken into account?

I'd view Warner as Hall worthy but the one thing is that there are so many players now being tabbed as 'future hall of famers' that the selection of a player can take a considerably longer time then in the past when so many went in on their first balot

It's only the NFL that is really considered relevant. And while I hear what you're saying, Warner is a little different though! Post season numbers after 12 games in the playoffs:

Completions 300
Attempts 436
Comp Pct 68.8
Yards 3747
TD's 31
Int 13
Yds\Att 8.59
Rush TD 2

I can't find any passer in league history who's done better in the post season and Warner's numbers aren't going down as the sample size increases.

EDIT: Montana is probably better on reflection! Being runner up to Joe Ballgame is no disgrace though.

Dodge

I think I read that he's only behind Bart Starr in QB rating in play offs.

In terms of the "Pro Football" aspect to the hall of fame, its called that so pre merger AFL stats and achievements are counted. Other ruval/development leagues aren't considered

cooker3

Jesus, that yardage number is crazy. If he kept that up over 16 games he would be close to matching Brady's single season record and this is just play-offs games!

LuckyLloyd

cooker3 wrote: »

Jesus, that yardage number is crazy. If he kept that up over 16 games he would be close to matching Brady's single season record and this is just play-offs games!

Yeah, it is ridiculous.

Gisty

jdivision wrote: »

I think he's in the hall of very good, but not the hall of fame to be honest. Benched too many times.

This.

Hall of Fame players are consistantly good. Warner has been up and down his whole career. He was puke in AZ until they brought in the Playstation Offense that they have now.

LuckyLloyd

Gisty wrote: »

This.

Hall of Fame players are consistantly good. Warner has been up and down his whole career. He was puke in AZ until they brought in the Playstation Offense that they have now.

Super short peak (though obviously a ridiculously high one), late career start (in terms of getting a starting spot in the NFL), journeyman with tons of fail after leaving the Rams, coupled with "was he a system QB?" questions could've easily kept him out. Getting into the NFL Hall of Fame is difficult after all.

Taking another team (and a traditionally terrible franchise at that) to the SB a decade later basically addresses all of those questions in one fell swoop, and guarantees his place in the hall.

Dodge

Gisty wrote: »

This.

Hall of Fame players are consistantly good. Warner has been up and down his whole career. He was puke in AZ until they brought in the Playstation Offense that they have now.

He's never had a season average QB rating below 85 at Arizona, and he had injuries the first two seasons.

Its simply not true to say he was "puke" :rolleyes:

themont85

he compares favorably to Hall of Famer Troy Aikman, with just 598 fewer yards, a better touchdown-to-interception ratio (208-128 to Aikman's 165-141) and four percentage points more accurate (.655 for Warner, .615 for Aikman); Aikman, who started 40 more games, has 27 more victories than Warner.

From MMQB.

As said by LL, the question marks surrounding him should be assuaged by getting the Cardinals to the SB. He has all the things you'd want when checking off a player's credentials, MVPs, SB MVPS ect.

In fairness to Warner he was slightly unlucky with the Rams and Giants. He had injuries and yes poor form, but his rags to riches tale meant that many thought he was a system phenom and didnt get the time a 'Franchise 1 rounder' would. In NY the media had the coming of Eli mentality.

Gisty

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Taking another team (and a traditionally terrible franchise at that) to the SB a decade later basically addresses all of those questions in one fell swoop, and guarantees his place in the hall.

If he did it his first season there, with no WRs, maybe. But he's been there what, 5 years? And they've been good for 2 seasons. In a generally ****e division. Wow, what a difference maker. I'm sure they'll be able to get rid of Fitz, Boldin, Breaston, Urban and Doucet and bring in a bunch of scrubs because Kurt will be able to win games by himself? No, because he's not that great. Dan Mario, Bart Starr and all the greats were able to pull games out of their asses, Warner cant. He get's hit a few times or throws a pick and he falls apart.

He's been good in St.Louis when they had the Greatest Show On Turf offense. ****, I would have got that offense to the playoffs at QB. And he's been good in Arizona, with the best WR corps in the game. In AZ all he was to do is pitch a short pass to the WR and he does all the work. Half his passes require circus catches from the WRs because they're off target.

He is not Hall of Fame material.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zPTxcpXubg

Look at the catches here. They're ALL the WR doing the hard work. If he didnt have the WRs make those circus catches they would have lost, and you guys wouldnt give a toss about him.

Gisty

themont85 wrote: »

In fairness to Warner he was slightly unlucky with the Rams and Giants. He had injuries and yes poor form, but his rags to riches tale meant that many thought he was a system phenom and didnt get the time a 'Franchise 1 rounder' would. In NY the media had the coming of Eli mentality.

That's bollox. He was SH*TE in NY because they had him playing a "real" system. He's the NFL version of a spread QB. He only succeeds in crazy pass based offenses surrounded by good wrs. Put him in a regular offense and he's crap.

themont85

Gisty wrote: »

That's bollox. He was SH*TE in NY because they had him playing a "real" system. He's the NFL version of a spread QB. He only succeeds in crazy pass based offenses surrounded by good wrs. Put him in a regular offense and he's crap.

He was hardly ****e in NY. He had okay stats over the 10 games he played. In a new offense, they wanted the next Peyton Manning and he was expected to be a bridge between to Eli. If you're denying that the NY circus for Eli wasn't a factor in his benching you're being delusional.

For the record, I do kind of agree with you. Yes he is in pass happy offenses. But somebody has to complete those passes and he has been effective doing this. He has amazing post season stats. He is HoF worthy going by his stats and how he has been effective in two cities. His average pass per throw (7.9) is higher than Manning (7.7) and Brady (7.3), you say its all dinks and YAC but over the course of a career it is highly impressive to have that high and average over those two, considered the best right now. Also higher than Marino. He has all the stats.

I would say that his mobility in the pocket has never been great. He has had fumbling issues but to deny him HoF is just ridiculous at this stage. He is nowehere near GOAT but neither is Aikman and he is HoF.

kryogen

as i probably said in this thread last year around this time

yes he will be