carb - protein - fat ratio

Bog Butter

Ok, so I have been doing a lot of research about losing weight, both here on the fitness forum and on the net in general. I am starting to follow the advice about exercise and diet from this forum. My main aim at the moment is losing about 4 stone. I know I need to do a lot of aerobic/cv exercise and some free weights.

I am using fitday.com to monitor and analyse my food intake. My nutritional requirements are around 2500 calories. But I am still not quite sure roughly what my food ratio should be. I know that carbs are important for someone who is doing a lot of exercise. I know protein is also important for muscle repair.

I am just worried that I if don’t eat enough carbs that I will not keep my glycogen reserves to the correct level and therefore loose lean tissue rather than fat.

Is there a difference between simple and complex carbs with regards to energy and glycogen levels?

The importance of protein is emphasised on this forum and people suggest eating protein with every main meal i.e 3 times a day. Does that apply to people who are trying to loose fat? Will that not put my fat intake over 25% of my over all intake?

What do you make of the quote below?

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0121.htm

The only way to make sure you've got enough glycogen is to ingest about four grams (16 calories) of carbohydrate per pound of body weight per day when you're training regularly.

Your expertise is appriacated:)

BrthzDublin

3g proteins, 3g carbos, 0.8g fats/per each kg

EileenG

It's a myth that you need carbs for energy. Sure, carbs are a very easy sort of energy for your body to use, but if you have four stone to lose, you want your body to be burning fat for energy, not sugar.

I think you should do some research on ketogenic diets for bodybuilders/athletes, where they eat low carb six days a week, then have a high carb refeed day to replenish muscle glycogen. Go to http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61 for more information on this.

One of the big advantages of keto diets is that they tend to be muscle sparing. Unless you drop your calories stupidly low, you tend to lose nearly all fat instead of the usual combination of fat and muscle. It also tends to reduce hunger, so you can stick to your diet without feeling deprived.

The downside is that you will feel like ****e the first few days, until your body adapts, and you won't enjoy cardio for the first couple of weeks. It is possible to gain muscle on a keto diet, but it's a lot slower and harder work. But you'll lose fat faster than on a carb based diet.

Bog Butter

Well I want to have a smooth transition between my weight loss period and beyond. Does this Keto diet exclude all carbs including vedge?

In general is it ok to get your carbs just from fruit and vedge. Not that I intend not to eat other forms of carbs but I would just be interested to know?

Basically I don't want to deprive my body of anything. For example I read that carbs are very important for the brain.

Crash Bang Wall

Im sort of in the same spot as you....needing to lose weight (not quite 4 stone though)

I joined gym in Sept and use a relatively simple diet/exercise programme. Gym twice a week and soccer 1 nite a week. 20 mins * 3 treadmill.bike/cross trainer and a few weights machines.

Breakfast: Special K
Lunch: Brown bread sandwich Chick/Ham/Cheese
Evening; 3 eggs in omlette with ham & cheese or baked potato.

Weekends not as strict. I just try to avoid sweet things and too much fats and carbs and stay off the drink as many w/e's as possible.

Lost a stone and a half up to 15 Dec (only back at gym once since then)

Hope it helps although Im no nutrition expert and there may be flaws or problems with this diet long term but it works 4 me

EileenG

malman wrote: »

Well I want to have a smooth transition between my weight loss period and beyond. Does this Keto diet exclude all carbs including vedge?

In general is it ok to get your carbs just from fruit and vedge. Not that I intend not to eat other forms of carbs but I would just be interested to know?

Basically I don't want to deprive my body of anything. For example I read that carbs are very important for the brain.

One of the big myths. No, carbs are not essential for the brain. If glucose is very low, then the brain can use ketones (byproducts of fat) instead. In many cases, the brain funcrtions better on ketones than on glucose. Epileptic children are often put on strict keto diets for years at time to control seizures. I personally find that I concentrate better when in ketosis; I'd always make a point of being in ketosis for exams, and I post better times on Brain Training when not eating carbs.

For most people who want to lose weight, then just lowering the amount of carbs, especially processed and refined carbs, is enough. Bodybuilders and some other athletes who have to do intense exercise while losing fat, will often do very strict low carb, only eating green veg (but lots of those) until the carb-up day, when they eat lots of porridge, brown rice, skim milk, wholegrains, fruit, beans and pulses etc.

The carb-up day means that you get a break from the stict diet, and you get to make up any micro-nutritients you might be missing on keto. Mind you, I've got a big wall chart in my kitchen, with all the important vitamins and minerals, and the best food sources. There is nothing that you need that you can't get on a good keto diet. Vitamin C, for instance, is found in broccoli, cauliflower, kale, brussel sprouts, red peppers and parsley.

Crash: where are your vegetables? I don't see a single portion, never mind five.

_Nuno_

malman wrote: »

Basically I don't want to deprive my body of anything. For example I read that carbs are very important for the brain.

Carbs are not very important for anything in the human body. If they were, there would be such thing as essential carbohydrates, like there are essential fatty acids and aminoacids.

Bog Butter

Ok there may not be any direct benifits to carbs but isn't there indirect benifits?

EileenG

Carbs in the form of vegetables have lots of benefits. Fruit has benefits. Some wholegrains have benefits, though not as much as the cereal makers would have you believe. Bread, pasta, sugar and processed carbs are tasty and provide a very accessable form of energy. That's about it. Great if you are stuck on a moutain somewhere, not so good as part of a standard diet.

Bog Butter

EileenG wrote: »

Carbs in the form of vegetables have lots of benefits. Fruit has benefits. Some wholegrains have benefits, though not as much as the cereal makers would have you believe. Bread, pasta, sugar and processed carbs are tasty and provide a very accessable form of energy. That's about it. Great if you are stuck on a moutain somewhere, not so good as part of a standard diet.

Yes this is more or less what I have need reading and so i have given up bread and boxed cereal apart from Weetabix.

I ran a half hour on the treadmill this morning before breakfast but by the time I got back it was around 1 because I went into town. And so I have only had two meals today so far. I might have another, I don't know yet, but the thing is I have only taken in around 1000 calories.

Here's what I had so far

1 chicken breast and fresh vedge fried with 1/2 a table spoon of olive oil
brown rice

more fried vedge with soy sauce and little bit of noodles
two boiled eggs

orange

Should I eat more for the sake of bringing up my calories alone? I may actually go swimming later on by the way. If I am to eat straight after what would I eat? Your opinions are appriaciated.

EileenG

If you are not hungry, don't eat. When you are hungry, do eat. One of the reasons we have such problems with obesity is that people have lost touch with the needs of their bodies, and they eat when they are not hungry, just because it is mealtime or because the food is tasty, or even because Desperate Housewives is in tv. Or they starve themselves to get thin on the latest celeb diet.

I'm guilty myself, and I have to think very hard before I eat. Often I'm not hungry, just feel that I should be eating because it's a certain time since I last ate.

Bog Butter

Thanks for that.

rccaulfield

Watch all this guys vids- ul have no more questions about losing weight, alot of myths about burning muscle not fat out there etc!
He has 225 vids on youtube- opened my eyes about protein shakes etc.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=neUkTzv4LIE&feature=channel_page

cozmik

EileenG wrote: »

One of the big myths. No, carbs are not essential for the brain. If glucose is very low, then the brain can use ketones (byproducts of fat) instead.

Ketosis leads to increased methylglyoxal production

In the popular and widely used Atkins diet, the body burns fat as its main fuel. This process produces ketosis and hence increased levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate (BOB) acetoacetate (AcAc) and its by-products acetone and acetol. These products are potential precursors of the glycotoxin methylglyoxal. Since methylglyoxal and its byproducts are recognized as a significant cause of blood vessel and tissue damage, we measured methylglyoxal, acetone, and acetol in subjects on the Atkins diet. We found that by 14-28 days, methylghyoxal levels rose 1.67-fold (P = 0.039) and acetol and acetone levels increased 2.7- and 6.12-fold, respectively (P = 0.012 and 0.028). Samples from subjects with ketosis showed even greater increases in methylglyoxal (2.12-fold), as well as acetol and acetone, which increased 4.19- and 7.9-fold, respectively; while no changes were seen in samples from noncompliant, nonketotic subjects. The increase in methylglyoxal implies that potential tissue and vascular damage can occur on the Atkins diet and should be considered when choosing a weight-loss program.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16037240

Vampireskiss

The thing I do not like about Ketonic diets is that they do not distingush between quality fats and proteins as long as you cut the carbs its all that matters crappy foods like fried rashers and sausages are fair game with all that salt and saturated fat plus ketonic diets aren't something someone can stick to for a lifetime they make you feel like crap and they are imbalanced for sure the very fact they produce ketones proves this just think about it for a second if you see a fat person walking down the street you wouldnt say that guy needs to stop eating brown rice sweet potatoes porridge and apples you would know he probably eats pizzas drinks beer and goes to macdonalds alot.In my opinion nature doesn't get things wrong very often which is why these good quality carbs exist its the man made processed carbs that are the problem and while I wouldnt advocate the amount of carbs that the out dated food pyramid does I think a balance of protein fats and carbs is the way to go

cmyk

I tried to eat very a very low carb diet, for 2 weeks last month, Christ never again. I reckon I was in keto by the end of the first week, is that possible? Had absolutely zero energy and couldn't sleep much at all? Did I drop some bodyfat yes I think so, was it worth it...nope. Felt much better since I've reintroduced carbs albeit healthy carbs, and workout energy has improved.

Back to porridge in the mornings instead of eggs, and brown rice/wholegrain pasta pwo. Made a huge difference to my energy levels.

GymJohn

If one want's to drop fat then there must be a reduction in caloric intake AND an increase in caloric output.

Now obviously exercise will increase caloric output but depending on the type of exercise the body will adapt to this and so caloric output gets reduced without the person realising.

When reducing caloric intake the first thing to reduce are non essential calories and if needs be replace them with the missing essential calories.

Adding good fats like nuts, fish oils, olive oil, coconut oil, avocados etc will increase energy and eliminate cravings.

Adding more natural proteins from fish, meat & poultry will help preserve and increase lean mass and this will speed up fat loss due to increase in metabolism.

Adding more vegetables 8-10 servings a day will give you plenty of fibre and nutrients that again will speed up fat loss & detoxification.

Then:

Eliminate take aways, sweets, Buscuits, fizzy drinks etc. We all should realise this.

Eliminate all processed foods such as breads, pastas, cereals - all non essential calories.

Doing this will help drop a lot of fat without having to count calories. Once you get to a relatively low bf or so then you will have to record your intake a bit more to see where you can reduce your caloric intake if you wish to progress further.

EileenG

What on earth makes you think keto diets make you feel crap? I feel crap when I eat sugar or processed carbs.

Ketosis is a natural state. It just means the body is burning fat. Before we got to the stage where sugar was always available, everyone used to spend at least part of the time in ketosis. Considering that burning fat is the aim of every cutting diet, I can't see the logic in condemning keto diets because they encourage fat burning.

For many people the first week or so of a keto diet can feel rough, after that you normally feel fine, plenty of energy, no hunger and no farting!

EileenG

cozmik wrote: »

Ketosis leads to increased methylglyoxal production



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16037240

And this proves?

cmyk

EileenG wrote: »

What on earth makes you think keto diets make you feel crap? I feel crap when I eat sugar or processed carbs.

Ketosis is a natural state. It just means the body is burning fat. Before we got to the stage where sugar was always available, everyone used to spend at least part of the time in ketosis. Considering that burning fat is the aim of every cutting diet, I can't see the logic in condemning keto diets because they encourage fat burning.

For many people the first week or so of a keto diet can feel rough, after that you normally feel fine, plenty of energy, no hunger and no farting!

Well I don't know a huge amount about the exact science behind it, but I did read up on it and I'm only giving my experiences, i'll give you an idea of what my diet was and what it went to, maybe it wasn't down to the diet and if so you might tell me where I was going wrong, other issues in that 2week period could have been a factor, huge work pressures etc.

Meal 1 Porridge/skimmed milk/honey >>>>Scrambled eggs with small amount of cheese.

Meal 2 Unsugared peanut butter on rice cakes plus apple>>>>Tin of tuna with balsamic vinegar plus apple

Meal 3 Chicken breast on wholemeal with small amnt coleslaw and salads plus handful of almonds>>>Chicken breast salad plus handful mixed nuts.

Meal 4 Pre workout, small bowl of porridge with kiwi/banana>>>>tub cottage cheese/banana

PWO Meal Chicken breast or steak or salmon with fresh veg (parsnip carrot, sweet potato and brown rice>>>>cut the rice out.

I can only tell you that from my own experiences, my energy levels were way way down despite both diets being roughly the same amount of cals (2100-2300), plus I didn't have the energy I had before in the gym. Maybe I should have given it a bit more time? Like everything though, there are arguments for and against keto diets on the internet, I like to try these things for myself and see how they effect me. I do feel crap eating processed food, so I always eat as clean as I can anyhow.

Roper

I can only add this to this argument:

I don't know anyone who is in great shape that uses ketogenic diets or any extreme diet. The people I know who are fit and strong and in good shape all just moderate their diet, eat plenty of veg and meat and few carbs.

cmyk

Roper wrote: »

I can only add this to this argument:

I don't know anyone who is in great shape that uses ketogenic diets or any extreme diet. The people I know who are fit and strong and in good shape all just moderate their diet, eat plenty of veg and meat and few carbs.

I'll second that motion.

corkcomp

just want to say +1 to what cmyk said above, I was in a similar situation, having scambled egg for breakfast most days and lots of protein generally, i was defo loosing weight this way but once i switched to porridge and fruit and started having wholegrain bread for lunch and sweet potato for dinner my energy levels went way up and i continuted to loose weight until i got to where i wanted to be ... The difference in the gym was huge, especially with cardio endurance + speed

EileenG

A good keto diet has LOADS of vegetables. I generally recommend that you fill half your plate with veg at every sit-down meal. That's more than you'd be told to eat on a "balanced" diet. No-one suggests that you don't eat your broccoli and plenty of it.

Cymk - any change of diet will make you feel odd. If you went from a stanard Irish diet to a vegan one, or from a keto diet to a macro-biotic one, you'll feel strange for a while.

A lot of people report than on keto, they don't feel as if they have energy, but anything they start, they just keep going till it's finished. Same with the gym. You don't feel as if you must get there to use up your excess energy, but once there, you lift hard and may well find that you are lifting heavier weights than before.

GymJohn

Roper wrote: »

I can only add this to this argument:

I don't know anyone who is in great shape that uses ketogenic diets or any extreme diet. The people I know who are fit and strong and in good shape all just moderate their diet, eat plenty of veg and meat and few carbs.

Honestly how many people do you know who are in great shape i.e less than 10% bf.

I know plenty of people who have used keto diets to drop weight. Most bodybuilders/ fitness models will use it to get ready for a comp/photo shoot.

And of the people who you do know how many have actually dropped couple of stone to get there.

One of the problems overweight people face when trying to lose weight is that because of their lifestyle they have become insulin resistant. Ie most of the glycogen in their body gets stored as fat.

They key to successful weight loss is to limit carb intake so that the body can return to an insulin sensitive state where most of the glycogen will be stored in the muscle.

Also cymk, there wasn't enough fats in that diet plus it wasn't actually a ketosis diet as bannana's, parsnip, carrot, brown rice are not allowed on a ketosis diet!

cmyk

EileenG wrote: »

A good keto diet has LOADS of vegetables. I generally recommend that you fill half your plate with veg at every sit-down meal. That's more than you'd be told to eat on a "balanced" diet. No-one suggests that you don't eat your broccoli and plenty of it.

Cymk - any change of diet will make you feel odd. If you went from a stanard Irish diet to a vegan one, or from a keto diet to a macro-biotic one, you'll feel strange for a while.

A lot of people report than on keto, they don't feel as if they have energy, but anything they start, they just keep going till it's finished. Same with the gym. You don't feel as if you must get there to use up your excess energy, but once there, you lift hard and may well find that you are lifting heavier weights than before.

Yep that's true alright I probably wasn't eating enough fruit and veg, but I did have tons with my evening/pwo meal. I have read certain articles on the flipside to keto though, ill try and dig the links out and post them to see what you think. I'm heading to oz for an extended holiday next week, so I tried it last month to drop some bodyfat, which did work...but is also still working since I reintroduced more carbs/cardio. I guess that time was a factor of why I didn't continue with it, maybe i'll revisit it again at some stage.

As posted though I don't think that's a drastic diet change to what I had before anyhow, or have reverted too.

Bottom line is though, I just do what my body feels best at, if that's with a few carbs thrown in, then I'm happy with that once I'm getting the results I want.

cozmik

EileenG wrote: »

And this proves?

You can take from it what you will and decide for yourself. IMHO it is neither smart nor healthy to deprive a body of carbohydrates.

GymJohn

cozmik wrote: »

You can take from it what you will and decide for yourself. IMHO it is neither smart nor healthy to deprive a body of carbohydrates.

You can't deprive the body of carbs seen as they are non essential. We cannot live without fat and protein and to cut these out would be to deprive the body of essential nutreints. We can live our entire lives without carbs.

However we do need the nutrients from veg & fruit to live and in no way am i advocating eliminating these from our diets.

Vampireskiss

EileenG wrote: »

What on earth makes you think keto diets make you feel crap? I feel crap when I eat sugar or processed carbs.

Ketosis is a natural state. It just means the body is burning fat. Before we got to the stage where sugar was always available, everyone used to spend at least part of the time in ketosis. Considering that burning fat is the aim of every cutting diet, I can't see the logic in condemning keto diets because they encourage fat burning.

For many people the first week or so of a keto diet can feel rough, after that you normally feel fine, plenty of energy, no hunger and no farting!

Everyone here agrees with you that processed carbs are crap and makes you feel like crap but thats not what those that are argueing with you are promoting we are in favour of natural wholesome carbs

Ketontic diets may have there place if a body builder has hit a plateau at say 12 or 10% bodyfat and whats to get into low single digits but there is no requirement for any out of shape individual to go on a ketonic diet.Even bodybuilders that use them only do so for a certain amount of time.

Also I said it before there is not a distinction made between the fats and proteins you can eat on this diet rashers and sausages are fair game

lastly a true ketonic diet is so low in carbs that fruit is certainly not allowed and either are alot of veg

Roper

GymJohn wrote: »

Honestly how many people do you know who are in great shape i.e less than 10% bf.

I couldn't put a number on it. Lots of fighters, sprinters, boxers, rugby players... just anyone really dedicated to their training.

I know plenty of people who have used keto diets to drop weight. Most bodybuilders/ fitness models will use it to get ready for a comp/photo shoot.

I wouldn't use the extreme methods used by fitness models and bodybuilders as an example of good health. Much af what they do to get in stage condition has everything to do with starvation and dehydration and very little to do with "fitness".

They key to successful weight loss is to limit carb intake so that the body can return to an insulin sensitive state where most of the glycogen will be stored in the muscle.

And this is where we mainly disagree. I believe the key to a successful weight loss plan is to have a manageable and sustainable diet that doesn't shock the body or the mind. Extreme diets might well work in the short term but fail because the trainee is unable to go through such a massive change in such a short space of time.

EileenG

Vampireskiss wrote: »

Everyone here agrees with you that processed carbs are crap and makes you feel like crap but thats not what those that are argueing with you are promoting we are in favour of natural wholesome carbs

Ketontic diets may have there place if a body builder has hit a plateau at say 12 or 10% bodyfat and whats to get into low single digits but there is no requirement for any out of shape individual to go on a ketonic diet.Even bodybuilders that use them only do so for a certain amount of time.

Also I said it before there is not a distinction made between the fats and proteins you can eat on this diet rashers and sausages are fair game

lastly a true ketonic diet is so low in carbs that fruit is certainly not allowed and either are alot of veg

I have been eating keto for years, and I eat lots more vegetables now than I did when I was eating according to the food pyramid. These days, I eat broccoli and spinach and brussel sprouts and caulilflower and fennel and rhubarb and berries and mushrooms and asparagus and green beans (sorry, still hate salad). Back then, I used to eat lots of potatoes and pasta and rice, and the odd bit of sweetcorn or peas as veg.

Personally, I think someone who has a lot of weight to lose should be on a keto diet. If you know you have several stone to lose, it's very depressing to feel hungry and have to look at very small meals. On keto, you generally don't feel hungry, so it's much easier to cope. And initial weight loss is very fast. Yes, it's mostly water, but it's still very encouraging. Someone who has lost a stone in a couple of weeks is much more likely to stick with the programme than someone who feels as if he's starving and has only lost 2lb.

Incidently, I took part in a five year study on long term low carb diets, and among other things, they analysed my diet to see what I was deficient in. The answer was: Nothing. I was over the RDA on all the vitamins and minerals, and well over on most. And that wasn't even taking my mulit-vitamin and fish oil into account.

Sausages are generally stuffed with junk carbs. Very few serious keto dieters would even think about eating them. Salmon is our favourite way of getting in fat and protein.

corkcomp

EileenG wrote: »

I have been eating keto for years, and I eat lots more vegetables now than I did when I was eating according to the food pyramid. These days, I eat broccoli and spinach and brussel sprouts and caulilflower and fennel and rhubarb and berries and mushrooms and asparagus and green beans (sorry, still hate salad). Back then, I used to eat lots of potatoes and pasta and rice, and the odd bit of sweetcorn or peas as veg.

Personally, I think someone who has a lot of weight to lose should be on a keto diet. If you know you have several stone to lose, it's very depressing to feel hungry and have to look at very small meals. On keto, you generally don't feel hungry, so it's much easier to cope. And initial weight loss is very fast. Yes, it's mostly water, but it's still very encouraging. Someone who has lost a stone in a couple of weeks is much more likely to stick with the programme than someone who feels as if he's starving and has only lost 2lb.

Incidently, I took part in a five year study on long term low carb diets, and among other things, they analysed my diet to see what I was deficient in. The answer was: Nothing. I was over the RDA on all the vitamins and minerals, and well over on most. And that wasn't even taking my mulit-vitamin and fish oil into account.

Sausages are generally stuffed with junk carbs. Very few serious keto dieters would even think about eating them. Salmon is our favourite way of getting in fat and protein.

Speaking from personal experience I would advise anyone wishing to loose weight (even several stone) NOT to switch to keto diet .. Like roper pointed out you need to adopt a healthy attitute to diet and make sure you eat the type of diet that is sustainable in the long term, there isnt a lot of point IMO of going down the keto route unless you are willing to stick to it permanently!

Also, the correct portion sizes of wholegrains and plenty fruit and veg will not do any harm to the majority of people.

We need to remember that a lot of the people who post here looking for advice have some of the worse diets I have ever seen, coke, whilte bread, cornflakes, the list goes on! If these posters switched to wholegrain versions and cut out simple sugars, i guarntee they would see huge changes even if they took no other action so I believe this should always be the first step, nothing too drastic..

Vampireskiss

EileenG wrote: »

I have been eating keto for years, and I eat lots more vegetables now than I did when I was eating according to the food pyramid. These days, I eat broccoli and spinach and brussel sprouts and caulilflower and fennel and rhubarb and berries and mushrooms and asparagus and green beans (sorry, still hate salad). Back then, I used to eat lots of potatoes and pasta and rice, and the odd bit of sweetcorn or peas as veg.

Personally, I think someone who has a lot of weight to lose should be on a keto diet. If you know you have several stone to lose, it's very depressing to feel hungry and have to look at very small meals. On keto, you generally don't feel hungry, so it's much easier to cope. And initial weight loss is very fast. Yes, it's mostly water, but it's still very encouraging. Someone who has lost a stone in a couple of weeks is much more likely to stick with the programme than someone who feels as if he's starving and has only lost 2lb.

Incidently, I took part in a five year study on long term low carb diets, and among other things, they analysed my diet to see what I was deficient in. The answer was: Nothing. I was over the RDA on all the vitamins and minerals, and well over on most. And that wasn't even taking my mulit-vitamin and fish oil into account.

Sausages are generally stuffed with junk carbs. Very few serious keto dieters would even think about eating them. Salmon is our favourite way of getting in fat and protein.

Well if your eating that much veg it isnt really a keto diet

GymJohn

Roper wrote: »

I couldn't put a number on it. Lots of fighters, sprinters, boxers, rugby players... just anyone really dedicated to their training.

I would agree with all except the rugby players I was really talking about your average gym goer rather than athletes who train multiple times a week/day.

Roper wrote: »

I wouldn't use the extreme methods used by fitness models and bodybuilders as an example of good health. Much af what they do to get in stage condition has everything to do with starvation and dehydration and very little to do with "fitness".

These extreme methods are only used in the last week or so before competition/shoot. The majority of the time they are in excellent condition which has everything to do with great eating and training.

Roper wrote: »

And this is where we mainly disagree. I believe the key to a successful weight loss plan is to have a manageable and sustainable diet that doesn't shock the body or the mind. Extreme diets might well work in the short term but fail because the trainee is unable to go through such a massive change in such a short space of time.

I whole heartedly agree with you and all my programmes are focused on long term lifestyle changes. But you also cannot ignore the physiological fact that, inorder to burn a lot of fat, one must become insulin sensitive. Without this it is impossible to drop fat effectively

EileenG

Vampireskiss wrote: »

Well if your eating that much veg it isnt really a keto diet

Of course it's a keto diet. A keto diet for someone who's active could be up to 100g of carbs a day, but for most norma people somewhere between 30 and 50g of carbs a day allows you to eat bucket loads of vegetables while staying keto. Only the most hardcore or people with severe insulin problems need to stick to 20g a day.

Even 20g of carbs a day is a lot when you are eating it as vegetables. The average McDonald's side salad is less than 2g of carbs. How many people eat the equivelent of ten of those a day?

EileenG

corkcomp wrote: »

Speaking from personal experience I would advise anyone wishing to loose weight (even several stone) NOT to switch to keto diet .. Like roper pointed out you need to adopt a healthy attitute to diet and make sure you eat the type of diet that is sustainable in the long term, there isnt a lot of point IMO of going down the keto route unless you are willing to stick to it permanently!

Also, the correct portion sizes of wholegrains and plenty fruit and veg will not do any harm to the majority of people.

We need to remember that a lot of the people who post here looking for advice have some of the worse diets I have ever seen, coke, whilte bread, cornflakes, the list goes on! If these posters switched to wholegrain versions and cut out simple sugars, i guarntee they would see huge changes even if they took no other action so I believe this should always be the first step, nothing too drastic..

I'll agree that there are some terrible diets being posted. However, if you are cutting, the food pyramid is not ideal. Someone in a calorie deficit needs more protein and healthy fats, and fewer carbs than the food pyramid allows. I'll agree the FP is great for intensive athletes, but not for someone on a low cal diet.

cmyk

GymJohn wrote: »

In order to burn a lot of fat, one must become insulin sensitive. Without this it is impossible to drop fat effectively

Ok this whole discussion is going over my head slightly now, can you explain what you mean by insulin sensitive, or link to an article explaining it?

EileenG

cmyk wrote: »

Ok this whole discussion is going over my head slightly now, can you explain what you mean by insulin sensitive, or link to an article explaining it?

One of the major health issues now is that people eat a diet very high in refined carbs. Each time you do this, your body produces a flood of insulin to cope. Once the food is gone, the body then has to deal with the excess insulin sloshing around your body. After a while, it gets tired of the rollercoaster of insulin highs and lows, and starts ignoring some of the insulin. So you need more to get the same job done, which means more for the body to cope with and it ignores more....

This tends to lead to a host of problems that are normally lumped together as Metabolic Syndrome. High blood pressure, overweight/obesity (particularly obvious round the waist), high cholesterol, high triglycerides and eventually leading to type 2 diabetes.

The obvious solution is to switch to food which is less refined and produces less of an insulin reaction. Although the amount of carbs you eat does matter, the type matters more. 50g of carbs in the form of broccoli will have a tiny effect on insulin production while 50g of carbs in the form of sugar will have a huge one.

If you eat a diet that keeps insulin levels low, your body starts to become sensitive to it again, and to use it properly, the way it's meant to be used.

By the way, insulin isn't bad, it's essential for all sorts of stuff, not just sugar regulation. It's essential for muscle building for instance!

cmyk

Thanks eileen, the only carbs I take on would be brown rice, wholegrain pasta, veg, and porridge oats with small amount of honey ie. low GI, from the diet I posted earlier, are you recommending to cut these too, and just add a lot more fruit/veg?

EileenG

Oatmeal/porridge is very low gi, so you can continue to eat that. Honey is fine pre or post workout. Not so good the rest of the time, but a small amount is ok.

Brown or wild rice is fine as long as it's a part of a meal, not the bulk of it.

The thing I'd look at is the pasta. Even wholegrain pasta is still very processed. If you look at the fibre content, it's very small. It might be worth replacing the pasta with a bucket load of vegetables. If nothing else, pasta has more calories than you think.

The general rule is that the closer the food is to its natural state, the better it is for you.

Damien Maher in the Health and Living section of the Indo reckons that most Irish people are intolerant to wheat, and would do much better if they eat things which "fly, swim, run or are green."

cozmik

cmyk wrote: »

the only carbs I take on would be brown rice, wholegrain pasta, veg, and porridge oats with small amount of honey ie. low GI,

That's a good mix of carbs and I wouldn't go cutting out any of them. The good thing about veg is you can include as much as you like in your diet without having to sacrifice other foods.

Vampireskiss

Its a good idea to deliberately spike insulin levels during and post workout

cmyk

Ok, my understanding was that to enter a ketonic state as it were, you pretty much have to eliminate all carbs, with the exception of fruit and veg? ie no oats, rice etc. I'd only have the pasta post workout though. As a rule I try to eat by the fly, swim or run rule. I even debated stepping toward paleo, but my porridge is my only treat really, could eat the stuff all day.

I'll try to do some more reading on the whole thing though, and give it another go when I'm home. Incidentally, is this diet more conducive to weight loss, or can you just play with the calories to bulk?

GymJohn

cmyk wrote: »

Ok this whole discussion is going over my head slightly now, can you explain what you mean by insulin sensitive, or link to an article explaining it?

I metioned it in an earlier post. When you eat carbs you break them down into glycogen (we'll call it sugar) This is absorbed into the blood stream. Your body has 4 options to do with this sugar. 1 use it for energy, 2 Store it in the liver (only a v small a mount can be stored there. 3 store it in the muscle 4 Convert it into triglycerides & store it as fat.

In order to store it your body produces insulin. This will shuttle it into your cells.

If you eat a lot of fast digesting carbs (sugars) your body will be producing a lot of insulin. Over time this can create a resistance to insulin and so your pancreas (where insulin comes from) produces more and more thinking it needs to. This causes sugar cravings, low energy and fat gain.

This Insulin resistance will cause most of your carbs (doesn't matter what source) to be stored as fat.

The only way to reverse this is to become insulin sensitive. The best way to do this is limit your carb intake at the beginning of your programme and increase your Omega 3 & protein intake. Both will help you become more insulin sensitive. Also following a hypertrophy weights programme will help to.

Essentially when you are insulin sensitive your body recognises the insulin the pancreas produces and so it produces just enough.

When you are controlling your insulin production the majority of your carbs will be stored in your muscle. That's why lean people can eat a lot of carbs and 'get away with it'

Hope this helps and is easy enough to understand

cmyk

Thanks Gymjohn that's great stuff, hence low/high GI foods, I'ts all coming together now.

I really believe that a lot of the problems with people being overweight/unhealthy is ignorance to this sort of thing. No education as to how to read a food label etc.

I've been going to the gym and training for I'd say 15years, but only since advise and reading of (mainly) this forum have I been seeing good results.

EileenG

cmyk wrote: »

Ok, my understanding was that to enter a ketonic state as it were, you pretty much have to eliminate all carbs, with the exception of fruit and veg? ie no oats, rice etc. I'd only have the pasta post workout though. As a rule I try to eat by the fly, swim or run rule. I even debated stepping toward paleo, but my porridge is my only treat really, could eat the stuff all day.

I'll try to do some more reading on the whole thing though, and give it another go when I'm home. Incidentally, is this diet more conducive to weight loss, or can you just play with the calories to bulk?

Yes, a keto diet is heavy on veggies, but has almost no grains, except perhaps pre or post workout.

Straight keto is designed for cutting but keto with a regular high carb refeed is excellent for bulking as well. As a general rule, if you are cutting but lifting and want to try to gain a little muscle, then a one day carb-up every week is recommended. If pure fat loss is the priority, then a 12 hour carb-up every 10-14 days is enough. For bulking, a 36 hour carb-up every four or five days should give good results.