Krav Maga, really good?

mick.fr

Hi guys,

I am noticing a large interrest for Krav Maga all over internet as a martial art.
There is some clubs in Ireland too.

I practiced Karate Shotogan also Nunchaku, Sai, Stick and close combat in the army and for me Krav Maga idealogy is so far from what I did and learned.

For me the main things I learned were to hit quick, once and save energy.

When I am watching Krav Maga video it looks completely desordered and messy.
Some even call it the "unstoppable kicks and never-ending hits". That makes me laugh a bit, mean no disrespect to those who practice this, but still how can this be effective in a real combat situation?

They seem to praise for speed and multi-hit/impacts but if your opponent is strong, he is gonna return the hits, but you are going to be so exausted, it will be difficult to reply.

Looks weird to me.

Anyone has some input probably?

tallaght01

Hey there.

I've been doing krav for about a year, and I love it.

Now, I'd have to say that I don't think I'm as "into" martial arts as a lot of people on this forum, so I doubt I represent popular opinion.

What I've found with krav is that you have to be really careful who you train with. There's a lot of people selling "commando" and "urban" krav mage etc out there. They're fine I'm sure, but I found their claims were a little bit OTT. Plus everything they do seems to be really expensive.

I settled on training with the International Krav Maga Federation, as they're pretty much the originals.

I think it's a decent martial art. One of the guys I train with recently saved his ass using it when he was attacked.

We spend a lot of time on basic combatives.....elbows, kicks, punches, palms etc. You have to get the basics really good. I do just as much of these as I did when I used to do kenpo.

Then there's the drills. Simulated attacks that we do a lot of. There's no point doing them if they're not pressure tested, and we do them under a fair bit of pressure.

We have regular grading. I did my first one recently. In kenpo, no one failed the yellow belt gradings. But the krav one was much tougher physically, and several people failed.

So, I really like it. People have a lot of opinions on it. I don't listen to them mostly, as they're usually not people who've done it.

Mairt has done it, and he dislikes it, so i'm sure he can post some sensible reasons why he didn't feel it was useful, as he's given it a shot.

But I'm a lot fitter than when I started. Our instructor gives us no false sense of security, and at the end of each drill the aim is to escape the situation.

Real life situations are weird. I've known a national karate champ to get his head kicked in when he was attacked a while ago. Often real life is just the toss of a coin.

I do feel a bit more confident in myself, though.

So, that's all I care about. A lot of people here will slate it, though.

mick.fr

Thanks mate for sharing your experience, interresting
It is very physical I can tell by the training and technics for sure.
Now I am not saying it is not good, it is just very different from what I did and what usually asian martial arts are about.
I am amazed at the amount of energy spent in such a short time

tallaght01

mick.fr wrote: »

Thanks mate for sharing your experience, interresting
It is very physical I can tell by the training and technics for sure.
Now I am not saying it is not good, it is just very different from what I did and what usually asian martial arts are about.
I am amazed at the amount of energy spent in such a short time

Yea, you are destroyed after training.

It;s pretty intensive. BUt there's some shocking youtube videos out there of krav :P

arybvtcw0eolkf

tallaght01 wrote: »

Mairt has done it, and he dislikes it, so i'm sure he can post some sensible reasons why he didn't feel it was useful, as he's given it a shot.

.

personally I didn't like it, but thats where I more or less leave it.

I tried it in Israel, and all the Israeli K.M. lads also cross trained in another style. They didn't try convert me to it, and I choose to stick with Kickboxing (at the time) and Judo.

There are some dodgy K.M. schools about, you've only to search for their vids on youtube (one Irish club took their's down after much ridicule).

But recently I've also pointed people to you (Tallaght01) as someone who's obviously enjoying it.

OP give it a go. I think most people will usually try a few different styles of martial arts before settling on the one for them so nothings wasted.

.

cardav

Hi Mick.fr

I'm with Tallaght01 on this. I practice with the IKMF in Cork. I suppose the main thing we re-iterate is that it is not a martial art but a self defence/self protection system.

Regarding the hit once and conserve energy approach, as you also pointed out your opponent could be a lot bigger and stronger than you in which case you will need repeated strikes.

As Tallaght01 mentioned our basics are stress and pressure tested to ensure that you can respond appropriately should you need several strikes against either one or several attackers in a variety of situations.

All I can say is that try a few classes and see what you think. As you pointed out some of the youtube clips are a bit OTT.

Let us know what you think.

Car

I've been training in KM since September now. I had tried out other martial arts but it wasn't my cup of tea and in the end it was between MMA and Krav. I chose Krav (I liked the whole Israel history behind it - that's pretty much why I chose it and it looked lethal but so does MMA but anyway)

I went into it sceptical as I didn't think the claims could be met, "you never forget the moves" "It's instinctual" "devestating blows" but I have to admit I think it is that good. I personally believe the claims made have been met, it is a really good course. I did it via http://www.kravmagaireland.com/

The head coach Patrick is brilliant and has a look of pure insanity when carrying out the moves. He's had experience in various martial arts and is the first and only Israeli trained Irish guy in Krav. I can't fault it.

I'm still practicing it on a weekly basis and will be going for graded belts soon. The 12 week course aimed at beginners will give you a solid introduction to it, you learn so many things. Highly recommended.

yomchi

I liked the whole Israel history behind it - that's pretty much why I chose it and it looked lethal but so does MMA but anyway)

Care to elaborate on this? Intriguing.

tallaght01

Jon wrote: »

Care to elaborate on this? Intriguing.

I can't speak for entrpreneur, but a lot of people like the fact that there's a combat history there, and it's been tested in real combat situations.

Jon

Jon wrote: »

Care to elaborate on this? Intriguing.

Taken from the website:

The history of Krav Maga is as exciting as the system it self. The founder of Krav Maga was Ime Sde Or. The history is closely linked to the development of the state of Israel and the need for the Israeli military to protect its country in one of the worlds most hostile areas.

Imrich ("Imi") Sde-Or*, founder of Krav Maga, was born in 1910 in Budapest.

He grew up in Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia, in a home where sports, law, and Central European education were equally respected.

Imi became active in a wide range of sports. He first excelled in swimming, and subsequently in gymnastics, wrestling, and boxing. In 1928 Imi won the Slovakian Youth Wrestling Championship, and in 1929 the adult championship. That year he also won the national boxing championship and an international gymnastics championship.

In the mid thirties, conditions began to change in Bratislava. Fascist and anti-Semitic groups appeared, determined to upset the public order and harm the city's Jewish community. Imi became the un-crowned leader of a group of young Jews, most of them with a background in boxing, wrestling, and weightlifting. This group attempted to block the anti-Semitic bands from entering the Jewish quarter and wreaking havoc there.

In 1944 Imi began training fighters in his areas of expertise: physical fitness, swimming, wrestling, use of the knife, and defenses against knife attacks. During this period, Imi trained several elite units of the Hagana and Palmach (striking force of the Hagana and forerunner of the special units of the IDF), including the Pal-Yam, as well as groups of police officers.


In 1948, when the State of Israel was founded and the IDF was formed, Imi became Chief Instructor for Physical Fitness and Krav Maga at the IDF School of Combat Fitness. He served in the IDF for about 20 years, during which time he developed and refined his unique method for self-defense and hand-to-hand combat. Imi personally trained the top...

I reckon why it's getting so popular across the internet recently is due to this, 2 MMA fighters went to Israel to learn about it:

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=eqD_y90uLXM&feature=related (Part 1)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ6uWVqVOw4&feature=related (Part 2)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0xUjrZ3zXKU&feature=related (Part 3)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=E-cccTEO8r4&feature=related (Part 4)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=w1_4o0M5Q_Y&feature=related (Part 5)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=GZwhfu0_Eoc&feature=related (Part 6)

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=D6wnV4krZZM&feature=related (Part 7)

Check it out, it was on Fight Quest. Awesome show.

yomchi

tallaght01 wrote: »

I can't speak for entrpreneur, but a lot of people like the fact that there's a combat history there, and it's been tested in real combat situations.

I see, when do the Israeli army actually go hand to hand with combatants? seems to me they're happy enough to stay behind the safety of tanks and F16's.

tallaght01

Jon wrote: »

I see, when do the Israeli army actually go hand to hand with combatants? seems to me they're happy enough to stay behind the safety of tanks and F16's.

I read a book recently by an Israeli soldier who'd used his KM quite a bit.

But if you want a political argument, then you're on your own.

The traditional MA community are just going to have to accept that some people love KM

Apparently it was all hand to hand combat as Israel is a very condensed place full of houses and trenches etc and it was seen as the perfect combat for it back when the civil wars were rife. The FBI and the US secret service use it these days along with the good old Irish Army (sic)

Here's a more detailed list I found:

Law enforcement organizations and their members that have been trained in Krav Maga include, but are not limited to the following:

# Federal Bureau of Investigations
# United States Marine Corps
# United States Marshals Service
# Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
# Drug Enforcement Administration Arrest and Control Unit
# U.S. Treasury Department
# U.S. Immigration Service
# U.S. State Department
# U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
# U.S. Coast Guard - Port Security Unit
# U.S. Coast Guard - Tactical Law Enforcement
# U.S. Coast Guard - Drug Interdiction
# New York City Police Department
# Illinois State Police
# Chicago Metro Police Department
# Alabama State Police
# Baltimore County Police
# Connecticut State Police
# Pennsylvania State Police
# Texas Department of Public Safety
# Ohio State Highway Patrol
# Florida State Highway Patrol
# California Highway Patrol
# California Department of Justice
# Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department
# Los Angeles Police Department Academy
# Santa Monica Police Department
# El Segundo Police Department
# Beverly Hills Police Department
# Burbank Police Department
# Pasadena Police Department
# Montgomery County (Maryland) Police Department
# New Jersey State Police
# New Athens Police Department

In addition to the Israel Defense Forces, several other special forces (for example GIGN, FBI, and SWAT) have already adopted this system for their contact combat

Source: http://www.kravmagakc.com/whouses.aspx

yomchi

But if you want a political argument, then you're on your own.

Israel and political arguments go hand in hand!

Ug Lee

It all depends on the context by which you look at Krav Maga. You could look at the fact that it was developed by Jews living in Europe in the 1930s who were under daily attack by Fascists.

Kraver

Hi Everybody
This is a link to Krav Maga Group web side:
www.kravmagagroup.ie
Classes in Dublin fo beginners and intermediate advanced.
First lesson free of chargers.
Regards
Robert

arybvtcw0eolkf

tallaght01 wrote: »

I can't speak for entrpreneur, but a lot of people like the fact that there's a combat history there, and it's been tested in real combat situations.

I doubt that.

Lads, the only thing 'deadly' about the Israeli Defence Forces is their ability to bomb the sh*t outta ya, not kick/punch the sh*t out of ya.

And its this thinking that draws the Walter Mitty's to the system.

Basically, as a Self Defence system its probably pretty sound and I've no doubt that a lot of people (Tallaght01) find it very good and very enjoyable.

But don't kid yourselfs about the whole Israeli thing.

Tbh, my present roster in work ends this month and I'm back to 9-5 Monday to Friday and I was thinking of learning more - I'll go with someone in the game a long, long time and go over to Jon in Cabra.

Mairt, What are you talking about? You are starting to sound like a baby not getting his way now. Nobody is forcing you to appreciate or respect this system or indeed do it.

But don't say it's not proven to work or that the whole Israeli history behind it is a farce because it's not. You don't even have to be a fan of Krav Maga to accept that, it's a simple fact.

http://www.kravmaga.co.il/founder.html

There is the official Krav Maga website based in Israel and you can learn all about the history of it.

Mick Coup

tallaght01 wrote: »

I can't speak for entrpreneur, but a lot of people like the fact that there's a combat history there, and it's been tested in real combat situations.

I really wouldn't rest too heavily upon the above quote, especially the part I highlighted - anyone that ever punched someone, or kicked another man in the testicles, has genuinely tested his material in combat - soldier/secret agent or not.

As for the actual KM material having a 'combat history' that can be verified - I wouldn't be so sure that it has, technically, to be honest. I'm not saying that plenty of IDF soldiers won't have used force on their adversaries with means other than bullets, but so what - punching someone in the head isn't more 'battle proven' wearing uniform than it is wearing jeans and a t-shirt outside any bar in any city anywhere.

I'd say that if you want to adhere strictly to what has been 'combat' tested the most, plain old boxing must surely stand up at the front of the queue...since more people have been put away with a simple variation of a straight right than anything else throughout the history of man fighting without weapons.

Mick

arybvtcw0eolkf

Deleted User wrote: »

Mairt, What are you talking about? You are starting to sound like a baby not getting his way now. Nobody is forcing you to appreciate or respect this system or indeed do it.

I trained K.M. with the Israeli Defence Forces - in Israel!.. Not some poxy hall in Dublin with 'Walter fvckwit Mitty' showing me how to disarmed an assailant with his AK47 stuck to my head :rolleyes:

I've said it already, as a self defence system its probably pretty sound and thats where it ends.

At risk of repeating myself (again and again), if someone wants to do K.M. and enjoys it, BRILLANT and so thats what he/she will probably stick with.

What I'm saying is that there's nothing special about it just because its an Israeli system.

.

tallaght01

I don't know if KM has been tested in combat for sure.

I know it's used by a lot of armies. I know my local police force get regular training in it.

I know a lot of people waffle about what they've done, an the effectiveness of their style, regardless of what type of MA they're involved in.

I know a lot of Krav Maga schools make exaggerated claims. I know a lot of "combatives" schools have a smugness about their teaching.

I know there was no difference in how I was thought to kick someone in the scrote in Kenpo classes, than when I leaned it in KM. But I also know which style I'd rather rely on if I was being attacked.

The point is that it's used by the IDF. Whether people regard that as being "combat tested" is irrelevant to me. People can have differing opinions on that.

I reject the idea that KM attracts Walter Mitties. There's one in my class of about 30. There's probably one in every 30 people in the world. He's not as bad as the brown belt in kenpo who thought us as teenagers to smash someone in the throat as a defence against someone placing their hand on our shoulder.

As long as you're mastering your basic combatives, and you're testing your techniques under pressure, then you've as good a chance as anyone if the proverbial hits the fan.

People feel threatened by KM, and that's fine. It's helped me shift a few kilos off my fat ass, and it's given me a new skill and a bit of confidence.

I'm not sure how anyone thinks that's a bad thing, but I make no apologies for recommending it to anyone.

arybvtcw0eolkf

tallaght01 wrote: »

People feel threatened by KM

Mairt

Mairt wrote: »

I trained K.M. with the Israeli Defence Forces - in Israel!.. Not some poxy hall in Dublin with 'Walter fvckwit Mitty' showing me how to disarmed an assailant with his AK47 stuck to my head :rolleyes:

I've said it already, as a self defence system its probably pretty sound and thats where it ends.

At risk of repeating myself (again and again), if someone wants to do K.M. and enjoys it, BRILLANT and so thats what he/she will probably stick with.

What I'm saying is that there's nothing special about it just because its an Israeli system.

.

That's great Mairt but the guy who coaches me Krav Maga is Ireland's only Israeli trained instructor. The only reason I'm mentioning that is because you insulted me by calling it "Walter Mitty" or whatever you're on about. I don't want to be associated with the "walter mitty" whatever you're trying to link me with so let's set that record straight right now.

Your problem seems to stem from the fact that it is associated with Israel. I said it has an interesting history and it appealed to me and then I looked at the guys who use it (as I said in my earlier post) and I decided to give it a go and that's that.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Deleted User wrote: »

Your problem seems to stem from the fact that it is associated with Israel.

Allah Akbar - Kaboom.

You don't know me at all ol' skin.

dlofnep

Mairt is actually a supporter of Israel. It's his only fault. If he has any criticisms of KM, it's safe to say - they are probably honest and unbiased.

tallaght01

dlofnep wrote: »

If he has any criticisms of KM, it's safe to say - they are probably honest and unbiased.

I fully agree. I'd just love to hear them. So many MA people are against KM, but never give reasons.

I'm no KM fanboy, and fair reasons to decide that it's not for you are things like:

Lack of sparring

Lack of competition

The sheer commercialness of some schools, that makes it hard to believe they have students's advancement at heart.

Over reliance on fixed techniques (which is a myth, but it's something I've heard a few times, and at least it's a genuine concern).

I'm totally up for debate on the effectiveness, or otherwise, of KM, but not just because people have taken a dislike to it for spurious reasons.

Personally speaking, if the US Marine Corps (as well as the FBI, Secret Service, (see my previous post for full list) are prepared to use Krav Maga, I'm pretty sure it will suit me fine thanks.

dlofnep

I haven't seen much of KM, only what I saw on the show with Jason Chambers. It looked decent from where I stood.. But I'm not sure all gyms train with the same intensity as the guys in the video..

Obviously beginners wouldn't. As you progress and advance, you do. It's like everything: you get out of it what you put into it, the fitter you are; the better endurance you will have. In the advanced/ongoing/grading training classes, all the guys are physically strong and in good shape with the exception of a few who have gotten there through technique and a will to learn. The grading is a welcoming addition - not that you need it as such to be a good fighter but it's excellent for the element of achieving goals etc like anything in life.

Nothingcompares

I don't like people who train with the aim of maiming people. I think it comes from a combination of insecurity and cowardice as well as Batman fantasies. Krav Maga and combatives in general, in my opinion, represent this view point.

I don't think the world is a scary place where training to kick people in the balls, poke people in the eye or use a windscreen whipper as a deadly weapon is justified.

How come in the real poor dangerous communities we never hear of people doing some hardcore martial arts training?

How come 99/100 people involved in these things are yuppy white guys in their 30s?

I don't think the world is a scary place where training to kick people in the balls, poke people in the eye or use a windscreen whipper as a deadly weapon is justified.

Have you read the news? It's a system for self defence i.e. protecting yourself against people who are trying to kill you - do you really care what happens to the assailant? I don't want to kill anyone ever but if it comes down to me or him, and he is trying to kill me, I'll do what I have to do.

How come 99/100 people involved in these things are yuppy white guys in their 30s?

Yeah cos that's a valid statistic and not plucked from your arse! :rolleyes:

tallaght01

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I don't like people who train with the aim of maiming people. I think it comes from a combination of insecurity and cowardice as well as Batman fantasies. Krav Maga and combatives in general, in my opinion, represent this view point.

I don't think the world is a scary place where training to kick people in the balls, poke people in the eye or use a windscreen whipper as a deadly weapon is justified.

How come in the real poor dangerous communities we never hear of people doing some hardcore martial arts training?

How come 99/100 people involved in these things are yuppy white guys in their 30s?

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with telling someone to kick their attacker in the nuts if they're being attacked.

When i lived and worked in Johannesburg (one of the most violent cities in the world), the reasons why people weren't doing KM (or any other MA) were:

1) They'd rather eat than pay for a MA class.

2) They were all carrying guns and knives.

I could equally argue that training for an actal self defence situation is morally more acceptable to train for fighting an opponent for the entertainment of others/for your own ego.

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I don't like people who train with the aim of maiming people. I think it comes from a combination of insecurity and cowardice as well as Batman fantasies. Krav Maga and combatives in general, in my opinion, represent this view point.

I don't think the world is a scary place where training to kick people in the balls, poke people in the eye or use a windscreen whipper as a deadly weapon is justified.

How come in the real poor dangerous communities we never hear of people doing some hardcore martial arts training?
How come 99/100 people involved in these things are yuppy white guys in their 30s?

I was brought up in a gaff with an outside toilet, no fridge and only RTE 1 and poxy 2. I wore my brothers clothes for years - and started Taekwon-Do at 8 years of age. Don't start any of that class talk with a silver spoon in your hand.

Nothingcompares

tallaght01 wrote: »

I could equally argue that training for an actal self defence situation is morally more acceptable to train for fighting an opponent for the entertainment of others/for your own ego.

i suppose vanity is the worst of the seven sins.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Lads, I might have come accross as a little blunt yesterday.

Its simple, it you enjoy K.M. then honestly thats the style you should stick to.

Just don't kid yourself that the Israeli's have found a sytem which is head and shoulders above everyone else just because they're a tough people with lots of wars under their belts.

Do what you enjoy.

.

Pride Fighter

It does not look great to me, training for hypothetical situations and the like. One would be better off taking up rugby for self defense. The tackles you learn there would be of more benefit than talking about a guy doing this or that or somebody with a plastic knife performing a staged attack.

Never once practiced a staged attack with a plastic knife. Hypothetical situations yes but free for all situations in training occur a lot of the time, generally the same principles apply whether the guy has a knife/weapon/gun or not; attack.