I just dont get starting strength!

Blacktie.

Ok so I started starting strength on Monday and my squat has already stalled on 85kg. My bench is struggling with just one jump up to 67.5kg and my deadlift and press can prob only take one or two more jumps. I just don't get how you can keep putting the weight up every session without stalling very quickly. I am training for a marathon on my off days running about 5 miles 3 times a week but I can't see this affecting the program in the first week! How can you possibly jump up in weights so quick. I mean going by the program I'd be doing twice my bw deadlift in just over 2 months. I'm barely geting 100kg at the moment with good form or as good as I can anyway.

I know this sounds like a rant but I just don't understand how I've heard so much about it but it doesn't sound believable and I'm only on it a week and I'm already struggling!

spiral

Go back 10-15 kg on all your lifts and go on from there.
You probably just started too high.
You should also probably eat a bit more than usual and I would guess that 15 miles a week will not help.

Blacktie.

Yeah that could be it I did only go back 5kg's on my 5rep max squat an back 2.5 on my bench and kepy my Deadlift very close. I'll give it a shot jumping back a bit farther.

Yeah I no but I'm training for the marathon this year so really don't want to give that up. Just gotta focus on eating more I'm thinking.

Thanks for the reply

rubadub

Have you lifted before this? I have not read much on starting strength but I imagine it is for beginners, who would experience beginners gains. Your quoted weights seem very high for a first timer.

When I first started I had dramatic gains in strength at first, which quickly lowered after a few months.

Roper

You're only 4 days in. That weight increase every session thing is mostly bollocks you'll probably realistically add 5kg a week for the first month maybe a little more.

rubadub

rubadub wrote: »

Have you lifted before this? I have not read much on starting strength but I imagine it is for beginners, who would experience beginners gains. Your quoted weights seem very high for a first timer.

When I first started I had dramatic gains in strength at first, which quickly lowered after a few months.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. But then again, if you are going to be using the Crossfit Strength Standards, there barely even novice! I think the Strength Standards are so harsh!!!

Blacktie.

Yeah I've lifted properly I'd say for bout a year before this. Didn't get any significant gains but slowly went up and only picked up the squat and deadlift in the last 9 or so months.

Should I just stick with the program then and go up when I can and just struggle through the tough periods. Power my way through it like?

rubadub

Deleted User wrote: »

Crossfit Strength Standards, there barely even novice! I think the Strength Standards are so harsh!!!

Yeah, seemed way over the top to me! I would love to see real figures for people starting out.

n the tables above, the term "untrained" refers to the expected level of strength in a healthy individual who has not trained on the exercise before but can perform it correctly. This represents the minimumlevel of strength required to maintain a reasonable quality of life in a sedentary individual.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf

I expect they have just branded 95%+ of the population as being unable to have a reasonable quality of life...

spiral

I got great gains in the deadlift and Squat , less so in the press and I didnt bench. I did chinups/pullups as well and I didnt do powercleans at the time as I didnt know how.
After a while the gains slowed down but usually I would find a flaw in my technique that once corrected would up my gains again. Its a combo of eating well resting being a bit bloody minded about your sets /reps and trying to ensure that your technique is improving. I wasnt doing a whole lot of cardio at the time cycling about an hour a day and BJJ 4-5 times a week .
The marathon training wont help , but if your doing it you'll just have to eat more I reckon. I think I reset back 10 kilos about 3 times in the 4-5 months I followed the program fairly closely

Conditioned

I've found Rippetoes strenght standards to be quite accurate. What he's given is an estimated one rep max so if you get 85% the one rep max you should get the weight that the novice would be starting with.

OP it appears to be your problem is that you did not reset the weight. You were obviously not a complete novice and had lifted weights before so what you should have done is reduced your previous 5rm by 10% and built up from there.

The fact that you are training for a marathon would not be recommended with this programme by Rippetoe as your body will really need every calorie you take in. This is the reason for the gallon of milk a day. However as its something you want to do your going to have to make up for it by taking in a huge amount of calories.

Starting Strength is just good old fashioned linear progression. Your going to have to get yourself one small weights for the pressing movements and you may even need them for squat, deadlift and Powerclean as you progress. If your in a gym collars for the bars as good light weights but your gym might not have enough and I know of gyms with none :eek: Failing that the magnets from speakers are brilliant, You'll probably get them for little or no cost in a scrap yard. I guarantee you know lots of people with adjustable dumbells gathering dust under there bed, get the 0.5kg discs of them if you can get 8 of them you are all set. Stick them on to the bar with masking tape. Your increments from a 40kg press will now be 41kg, 42kg, 42.5kg, 43kg, 43.5kg, 44kg, 44.5kg, 45kg etc.

5kg a month would be a very poor return for a novice or as far as a low intermediate. If your progress is as low as this at this level or has stopped then you've got a problem. The problem may that your not taking in enough calories or its time to reset. How quick your progression will stop or slow down depends on a number of factors but in the OP's case its down to not starting off with the correct weight and calories taken in will become a factor but should not be yet.

spiral

good point on the small plates

madmik

ur probably burnt out from all that running on ur days off

a human stomach can only eat so many calories per day before feeling sick+bloated+unable to get off the couch

power exercises like squats and deads need serious nourishment and recovery so running on recovery days will make it tough to gain muscle+strength

this in turn will stall your gains especially as the runs get longer and longer

i would decide between strength + enduarance and choose one over the other

Colm_OReilly

You might want to check out www.crossfitendurance.com - see if someone there has advice. I know Brian McKenzie does a lot of strength work while prepping for ultra distance races.

Can't seem to find anything on Rip's forum about marathon training, but he will say that running, particularly LSD will severely retard progress. Maybe do a search for "running" or "LSD" there and see what he says.

DM-BM

OP, what age, weight and height are you?

How much weight have you being adding to the bar every session?

How much do you eat everyday?

Over on Rip's forum the, the most common reasons for stalling are , not enough food, not enough rest, too much weight on the bar too quickly, form problems and adding in cardio.
It could be any or all of the above, that are wrong, but definitley if you are training for a marathon, it will affect the results on SS.

@ Roper, what do you mean adding weight to the bar every session is bollocks? why is it bollocks?

Roper

DM-BM wrote: »

@ Roper, what do you mean adding weight to the bar every session is bollocks? why is it bollocks?

Cos it doesn't necessarilly happen. It's a nice thing to say and all but some guys aren't ready for the next jump up and get discouraged because they're supposed to be adding weight and they're not.

Conditioned has it right though, smaller plates will allow you to make minor steps. Starting strength is great but there are some problems with it that you need to iron out for yourself as you do it.

DM-BM

Well, Rippetoe makes a point of stressing the necessity for smaller plates, especially for the press and the bench, not many people can add 2.5kg to those to lifts every session for very long.

And with regard to not being ready to add weight every session, usually there is a reason, like too big a jump. not enough rest or food. Every one will eventually miss a rep or to and need to reset, take 10% off the bar and start building up again and if your on it for a long period of time, and this is happening after a couple of resets, then it has probably run it's course and it's time for something else.

gabgab

Do you have the book or a general outline of the programme? I am almost sure he states a pretty comprehensive list of why you may not be progressing in it. Most of which if taken on board will sort out the issue,

Does he not also state that very very few peole start low enough with the initial weights?

I would also throw up, or write down your diet becuase with some longish cardio, heavy weights, and not enough food is going to need a lot of fuel

I did it and made some god progress even bearing in mind my diet was not ideal and I skipped some sessions,

Blacktie.

Yeah I think it's my diet thats holding me back. It always has been really. I find it hard to consume enough calories but now I'm starting to focus on eating alot so Im trying to get in about 3300 calories a day and going by the calculation thing in the stickies my maintenance is around 2950 calories.

dioltas

If your maintenance is 2950, then when you add in the weight training / running I'd say you could be easily over 3300 calories. It's very hard to build muscle if you don't have a surplus so maybe thats your problem.

Blacktie.

Na thats with the weight training and running added in.

Sangre

I had some home .75kg plates in the gym today hanging off the bar doing my squat today. Looks silly but i'll be damned if I'm going to try and go 2.5kg up on every lift. I have .5kg plates at home which I'll eventually need.
The main point is to always add weight, no matter how small. Always err on the side of caution, too little weight is better than too much.
I'm really enjoying the programme, most of my weights started out low enough as some were new to me, or slightly different e.g used to use DBs for bench. So I'm seeing progression for most lifts at moment. Squat is the only one at the moment that leaves me utterly spent, no doubt everything will catch up soon. Not really doing any CV either (except walking), also trying to get rest and get protein in every meal.

Colm_OReilly

Rip recommends up to 5000 kcals a day if you need to put on weight.

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Rip recommends up to 5000 kcals a day if you need to put on weight.

QFT.

One of the lads has been doing a strength programme for the last 2 months and couldn't understand why the weight wasn't going on until I made him write down his diet. circa 2,000 kcals!

Blacktie.

5000! Holy sh!t I'm findin it hard to get in 3300 sometimes. How do you do that without a massgainer? Thats a hell of a lot of eating!

brianthebard

Well, if you think everything else about your diet is ok, and if you drinking enough milk (easy enough way to add calories) why not get a massgainer? You are doing enough activities to warrant it by the sounds of things. If you have been honest to yourself that there's no other way to get another 1000 calories or more in, supps might be the way to go.

Yeah I'd agree with that - just try to get a gainer that is not LOADED with sugar. A lot of the supplements with the word "Mass" before it usually are just sugar gains.

Blacktie.

Mass gainer may be the way to go alright. I'll try uping my diet over the next week or two without one but if I have to use a mass gainer I will. Wat's the consensus on the mass gainer by thesupplementfactory? Seems to be alright not loaded with sugar or anything?

Link:Supplementfactory Mass Gainer

DM-BM

Blacktie. wrote: »

5000! Holy sh!t I'm findin it hard to get in 3300 sometimes. How do you do that without a massgainer? Thats a hell of a lot of eating!

Thats why he recomends a gallon of full fat milk a day if you need to gain weight. And the 5000 he recommends is without any cardio.

BobbyOLeary

Rip recommends 1 US gallon of milk a day. That is roughly 3800 ml. I think milk is about 66kcal/100ml (correct me if I'm wrong). That works out to be about 2500 calories. Probably the easiest (and tastiest) way of getting that many calories into you.

It's up to you, drink the milk and get big or eat a load and get big. You've no need for a mass gainer imo.

Colm_OReilly

Yep, I'm with Bobby.

To shift your weight in either direction takes a degree of discomfort. The higher the degree of (initial) discomfort you're willing to undergo will determine how quickly it will move.

For mass gain, you need to eat to the point of discomfort, then eat some more. You'll get used to it though.

Peanut butter and nuts are calorie dense and will help. Can you eat a packet of Brazil nuts/Cashew nuts each day, snaking on them throughout the day.

Blacktie.

Yeah that shouldn't be a problem I love cashews! I'll try add in a lot more milk aswell like instead of having a pint of it for lunch I'll have a liter and then just eat more in general. I'd really prefer to do this without a supplement for the benefits of actual food. I'm using fitday to keep track of my calorie intake so counting calories shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah you're better off using real wholesome food whenever you can.

Roper

Jeebus.

Lads the thread title should give you a hint. Starting. If you're starting, then you are obviously nowhere near your peak, and therefore should be looking to eat your way to the weight gain.

Roughly, in my opinion if you're doing 6 or so sessions a week, then you need to think about maybe getting some supplements IF you're feeling tired and lethargic and unable to train. If you're lifting 2 or 3 times a week especially when you're beginning then you need to chiggidy check and adjust your diet.

There are lots and lots of calorie dense foods, but I suppose the trouble with them is that you don't get to shake them in the changing rooms and knock them back with a swagger.

BuyingorSelling

Can you buy half kg weights that fit onto an olympic bar? The smallest in th egym is 1 1/4 so 2.5kg jump each time is proving very difficult.

Colm_OReilly

We made wooden ones for our gym. Some people have tried tying on bags of sand, and apparently 2" washers can weigh .25 or .5Kg, this is what Rip recommends in the States, haven't bother checking Woodies or HeatonBuckley.

If you can only make 2.5Kg jumps, you're going to stall quicker on the press bench and need more resets.

spiral

http://www.nerlinger.com/

if your german is up to scratch you can get a 12kg set here for 25 euro plus 10ish post. 2x 2.5, 2x2, 2x1 and 2x 0.5.

They are excellent quality and will last forever.

Blacktie.

I take it these are sized for the olympic bar?

DM-BM

yes

Blacktie.

K thats great thanks everyone for the replys to this thread they really did help and I've been steadily increasing since I've been eating my weight in food

Blazher

....

Sangre

Ok, you didn't start SS on Monday. What you did isn't SS, its only using the exercises in it. SS is strictly a 3x5 (depending on exercise) programme (after any warmup if needed). Even if you can do more you don't, just up the weight the next session.

You say you've never lifted before? 110kg squat seems a lot then, are you going low enough?

I've got my own SS question. Any alternatvie to weight decline situp? Rarely a free bench as there is only one. Also can also cause a twinge in lower back .

Blazher

Sangre wrote: »

Ok, you didn't start SS on Monday. What you did isn't SS, its only using the exercises in it. SS is strictly a 3x5 (depending on exercise) programme (after any warmup if needed). Even if you can do more you don't, just up the weight the next session.

You say you've never lifted before? 110kg squat seems a lot then, are you going low enough?

.

As i said i am only learning. I thought the more i did the better.

As for my squat. i am going down to the point where my ass is just hitting the top of my heal (or sure looks like it in the mirror and feels like it ). I am going as deep as i can. From looking at videos on youtube and reading the forum, I understand that form is more important then weight. I say i could squat more weight but i would lose my form.

Should i do 3x5 or stay at 5x5?.

Also i have always had stronge legs. My upper body was always weak hence the bad bench press

I used to be 128 kg in weight. Took alot of running and alot less eatting to get my weight down to what it is now. I think this is why i have stronge legs. I have always been able to carry weight

Sangre

Sorry, wasn't having a go at you just clearing something up for you. There is nothing wrong with 5x5 or 3x10 or any programme like that. SS however is a very strict programme done up by an excellent trainer. Beginners like us should adhere to it very strictly. The 3x5 is there to get strong and quick. You don't do more if you can because the basis of the SS programme is to increase the weight lifted every session! I use my own .75kg weights to make this possible so in my squat I'm going up at 1.5kg a session, every session. Its always better to put less weight on than more. Don't worry about how much you're actually lifting.

For example, the other day on my last set someone was spotting me, giving me encouragement. I finished my last rep at reasonable pace, he said 'one more!'. I just racked it. By doing 3x5 I know my tiredness at the end and what I'll be capable of next session regarding more weight.

Regarding the squat, anything below parallel is good. That is the TOP of your quads are parallel to the floor. Watching your back doesn't round though when you go too low, which happens for me (working on hamstring flexibility).

Read through this if you haven't. Answers all your questions.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

Blazher

Sangre wrote: »

Sorry, wasn't having a go at you just clearing something up for you. There is nothing wrong with 5x5 or 3x10 or any programme like that. SS however is a very strict programme done up by an excellent trainer. Beginners like us should adhere to it very strictly. The 3x5 is there to get strong and quick. You don't do more if you can because the basis of the SS programme is to increase the weight lifted every session! I use my own .75kg weights to make this possible so in my squat I'm going up at 1.5kg a session, every session. Its always better to put less weight on than more. Don't worry about how much you're actually lifting.

For example, the other day on my last set someone was spotting me, giving me encouragement. I finished my last rep at reasonable pace, he said 'one more!'. I just racked it. By doing 3x5 I know my tiredness at the end and what I'll be capable of next session regarding more weight.

Regarding the squat, anything below parallel is good. That is the TOP of your quads are parallel to the floor. Watching your back doesn't round though when you go too low, which happens for me (working on hamstring flexibility).

Read through this if you haven't. Answers all your questions.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

Cheers mate

AARRRGH

Blacktie. wrote: »

5000! Holy sh!t I'm findin it hard to get in 3300 sometimes. How do you do that without a massgainer? Thats a hell of a lot of eating!

It's not really. I don't kill myself and I get around 4000 calories per day.

Example, yesterday I had -

9AM - 4 eggs, two croissants (treat) for breakfast
11AM - Large bowl of porridge
1PM - Large glass of freshly squeezed orange juice (treat)
2PM - Brown rice, dijon pork
5PM - Chicken breast, corn, couscous
8PM - Chicken breast, peas, brown rice, protein shake
-- GYM --
10PM - 2x Chicken breast, peas, brown rice, protein shake

Because it's "clean" food (except for the dijon pork, but that was a once off for me) you digest it fairly quick and never really feel full. Also, it gets easier to eat a lot once you get into the habit of doing it.