Keep going to ostepath who doesn't know squat?

Macha

I've been going to an osteopath for 2 weeks about long-term back pain, knee problems, etc. He seems to be doing fine and the pain is slowly going away but I've been really put off by his opinions on fitness.

He thinks that:
-squats are bad and if I insist on doing squats, I should only go down a few inches
-squatting even to parallel is "incredibly dangerous"
-lifting weights are bad for losing body fat, instead focus on cardio
-fitballs are a fad and will be gone in a few years

Gah! there are a few more things I can't think of right now. Plus, when he senses that I don't agree with him, he starts with this "It's my job", "I'm the expert" blah.

I know I don't know everything but I'm kinda worried about going to someone who has such different ideas about fitness than I do..

Whaddy'all think?

madmik

by giving this man ur business ur keeping him and guys like him with stone age attitudes in business

i would stop immediately,when he has no customers he will have to re-evaluate his attitudes

too many doctors know absolutely nothing about fitness and only seem to parrot the advice that was in their textbooks when they studied medicine 20+yrs ago

dump him and get someone better,they all charge the same price so dont
stick with an idiot ur not happy with

Can't believe someone like that is in that field. You should run a mile because this guy thinks he is an expert, anyone who claims to be an expert in an ever evolving field such as the human body whether you are a personal trainer/physio/physical therapist/osteopath etc should not even be there, there is no such thing as an expert in any of the above fields and the guys who claim they know everything should not be trusted, you could go in there to him and quote stuff from a study done to prove him wrong and he won't have a clue what's going on.

I am contemplating going down a road similar to this (Bsc in Physical Therapy - dealing with sports related injuries only mainly because it's a side hobby but primarily because of idiots like the above and my stubbornness). They have a relatively easy career in all fairness which is what most the population wished they could have but don't. They work for themselves 90% of the time and if they are approachable and promote themselves well - they are guaranteed to get work providing they are not in a cave in Afghanistan and can make a 6 figured salary out of it if they are good.

If you have read any of those anatomy/musculoskeletal/osteopath core texts, they are extremely good books for telling you the science behind how the body works etc but the rehabilitation in them is useless. I have a musculoskeletal book that is used by physios and physical therapists and osteopaths etc and it shows a "proper squat" of a guy going just to parallel when everyone knows a full, deep squat is not going to parallel, it's going right down till your hams touch your calfs basically and can be done by anybody within reason. One can only imagine the lectures going on in Universities and Colleges across the country with the next generation of physiotherapists/physical therapists/osteopaths discussing why squats are bad for you.

amazingemmet

I agree fitballs are a fad, great in a rehab situation but of no real use in a training enviroment. But seriously he doesn't know squat *gets coat*

As other said find someone who is better or more knowledgable (sp?)

Macha

Ok thanks for the replies guys.

Guess I'm in the market for a new osteopath.

rubadub

taconnol wrote: »

He seems to be doing fine

Seems, i.e. so far.

Guess I'm in the market for a new osteopath

Good. If I had some guy seemingly doing a good job fixing my PC or car and then he started spouting crap that I knew was blatantly wrong (like you do in this case) I would go elsewhere too, for fear of them doing damage in the future.

The best he could have done was when he realise that you have a different opinion to him was to shut his mouth and stop talking and only say something if he is willing to back it up.

Racing Flat

Deleted User wrote: »

I am contemplating going down a road similar to this (Bsc in Physical Therapy - dealing with sports related injuries only mainly because it's a side hobby but primarily because of idiots like the above and my stubbornness). They have a relatively easy career in all fairness which is what most the population wished they could have but don't. They work for themselves 90% of the time and if they are approachable and promote themselves well - they are guaranteed to get work providing they are not in a cave in Afghanistan and can make a 6 figured salary out of it if they are good.

I have a musculoskeletal book that is used by physios and physical therapists and osteopaths etc and it shows a "proper squat" of a guy going just to parallel when everyone knows a full, deep squat is not going to parallel, it's going right down till your hams touch your calfs basically and can be done by anybody within reason. One can only imagine the lectures going on in Universities and Colleges across the country with the next generation of physiotherapists/physical therapists/osteopaths discussing why squats are bad for you.

I wouldn't be so sure about the easy career. Responsible work and more and more people suing all the time makes it a fairly high pressure job. Can be quite physically demanding too I would imagine.

Guaranteed to get work - not that easy - takes about 3 years to build up a client list that will keep you going, if you are good and in the right place etc.

6 figure salary. You'd want to be doing very well, seeing an awful lot of clients with minimal costs for room hire etc. I'd imagine that the only such people on 6 figure incomes are those who have other people working for them and so get a commission from them.

In fairness to the Unis, you can't let one textbook or osteopath taint all current students. Textbooks would not really be encouraged anymore - they are alright for the basics, but students would have to provide evidence from peer-reviewed studies to back up their decisions these days.

Lastly, someone might prescribe a squat for a number of resaons - sure for strength or rehabilitation all the way might be appropriate, but for certain knee conditions for example, just doing a small range squat may be more desirable to preferentially recruit certain muscles over others to restore the muscle imbalance to correct the knee problem for want of a better description.

Good luck if you go into such a career, but it's not as easy as you might think. Back pain, knee pain etc., complicated things, not always that easy to sort out, and you'll feel the pressure if you're not getting the results!

Killme00

Deleted User wrote: »

I am contemplating going down a road similar to this (Bsc in Physical Therapy - dealing with sports related injuries only mainly because it's a side hobby but primarily because of idiots like the above and my stubbornness). They have a relatively easy career in all fairness which is what most the population wished they could have but don't. They work for themselves 90% of the time and if they are approachable and promote themselves well - they are guaranteed to get work providing they are not in a cave in Afghanistan and can make a 6 figured salary out of it if they are good.

If you have read any of those anatomy/musculoskeletal/osteopath core texts, they are extremely good books for telling you the science behind how the body works etc but the rehabilitation in them is useless. I have a musculoskeletal book that is used by physios and physical therapists and osteopaths etc and it shows a "proper squat" of a guy going just to parallel when everyone knows a full, deep squat is not going to parallel, it's going right down till your hams touch your calfs basically and can be done by anybody within reason. One can only imagine the lectures going on in Universities and Colleges across the country with the next generation of physiotherapists/physical therapists/osteopaths discussing why squats are bad for you.

me, me , me, me..aint i great...6 figure salary...easy job...me, me, me

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a musculoskeletal book that is used by physios and physical therapists and osteopaths etc and it shows a "proper squat" of a guy going just to parallel when everyone knows a full, deep squat is not going to parallel, it's going right down till your hams touch your calfs basically and can be done by anybody within reason.

No, most people, and by most I mean 80%-90% of people I see, cannot do a full, deep squat to JUST parallell without exhibiting various degrees of instability, inflexibility and weakness. Getting an inflexible person to the stage of squatting to just parallel safely is extremely difficult.

I rarely see anyone who can go hamstring to calf, atg without exhibiting one of the common problems. The book is correct, parallel (patella to hip) is enough for the vast majority of people and I'd be very impressed with a newcomer if they walked in off the street and could do that unweighted without compensations.

A little knowledge eh?

Oh an taconnol I'd drop him. Even if I was getting better there's only so many people who disagree with me I can put up with in a day. It's currently at 200. But finding a new one might be harder than listening to him!

Roper

Roper wrote: »

No, most people, and by most I mean 80%-90% of people I see, cannot do a full, deep squat to JUST parallell without exhibiting various degrees of instability, inflexibility and weakness. Getting an inflexible person to the stage of squatting to just parallel safely is extremely difficult.

I rarely see anyone who can go hamstring to calf, atg without exhibiting one of the common problems. The book is correct, parallel (patella to hip) is enough for the vast majority of people and I'd be very impressed with a newcomer if they walked in off the street and could do that unweighted without compensations.

A little knowledge eh?

Oh an taconnol I'd drop him. Even if I was getting better there's only so many people who disagree with me I can put up with in a day. It's currently at 200. But finding a new one might be harder than listening to him!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glen23_backsquat4.jpg

So is that deep enough for a proper squat? Rippetoe doesn't consider that a proper squat and he's the guy I've been paying a lot of attention to recently for the big compounds. I go right right down as far as I can go but I can only do it with 80kg's on my back which is quite pathetic considering I'm currently 85kg. I have not even tried doing 1/4 squats or anything like it as I firmly believe full deep squats is the way to go.

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

me, me , me, me..aint i great...6 figure salary...easy job...me, me, me

I consider anyone who works for themselves to have an easy career regardless of how difficult it is and as long as they are running the business and not letting the business run them! They are immediately eliminating 90% of the bull**** that goes with the politics and communication process of a corporate company. Owning your own business is in my opinion, the best thing anyone can do but I'm biased anyway.

brianthebard

taconnol wrote: »

Ok thanks for the replies guys.

Guess I'm in the market for a new osteopath.

Don't suppose you are near Galway? My chiropractor knows what a squat looks like and a little bit about powerlifting, so he's not going to tell you off for doing it or wanting to. (he's qualified in Canada btw)

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glen23_backsquat4.jpg

So is that deep enough for a proper squat? Rippetoe doesn't consider that a proper squat and he's the guy I've been paying a lot of attention to recently for the big compounds. I go right right down as far as I can go but I can only do it with 80kg's on my back which is quite pathetic considering I'm currently 85kg. I have not even tried doing 1/4 squats or anything like it as I firmly believe full deep squats is the way to go.

The one in that pic is not parallel.

NanoNano

One of my clients is a fysiotherapist and prescribes exercises and she has no clue how to do them. She says she knows how to correct an exercise but I doesn't show when she does it.
Something else I noticed with medical practioners is that if they did any sports they are more likely to be favorable to exercises or sports. If they didn't, they tell arthritis patients to not do anything!
I would not put up with the attitude. You're the one paying and he has to be professional. Ask him how often he reads new research.

ali.c

Roper wrote: »

The one in that pic is not parallel.

Agreed it a good bit off tbh!

Thank God it's not parallel, it's not a proper squat. Can you show me a parallel squat then that you are referring to Roper ?

Hanley

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank God it's not parallel, it's not a proper squat. Can you show me a parallel squat then that you are referring to Roper ?

Probably about another 3 inches to go.

These are just below parallel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuQPi1g-z-g

That's some serious squatting but you have the mass to withhold that weight. I look skinny next to you and people think I'm stocky and I'm almost 189lbs @ 12%bf.

With that sort of weight you are squatting, I'd imagine it's exceptionally difficult to go down even lower right? So am I right in trying to squat hams to calfs pretty much every time or should I be going just below parallel every time because let's face it, as I increase my squatting weight, how unlikely is it that I'll be able to do a full deep squat? Is it genetic how low people can go?

celestial

Deleted User wrote: »

I am contemplating going down a road similar to this (Bsc in Physical Therapy - dealing with sports related injuries only mainly because it's a side hobby but primarily because of idiots like the above and my stubbornness). They have a relatively easy career in all fairness which is what most the population wished they could have but don't. They work for themselves 90% of the time and if they are approachable and promote themselves well - they are guaranteed to get work providing they are not in a cave in Afghanistan and can make a 6 figured salary out of it if they are good.

In an ideal world maybe!! It is a packed market and you've got a lot of competition - takes time to build up experience and trust - 6 figure salaries are few and far between methinks.

Hanley

Deleted User wrote: »

That's some serious squatting but you have the mass to withhold that weight. I look skinny next to you and people think I'm stocky and I'm almost 189lbs @ 12%bf.

With that sort of weight you are squatting, I'd imagine it's exceptionally difficult to go down even lower right? So am I right in trying to squat hams to calfs pretty much every time or should I be going just below parallel every time because let's face it, as I increase my squatting weight, how unlikely is it that I'll be able to do a full deep squat? Is it genetic how low people can go?

Thanks....

It's easy to go lower with heavy weight. You've got it to push ya down sure... the reason you don't see people doing it is cos they wouldn't be able to come back up with it.

If you can do a deep squat with 20-40kg, you can do it with 240kg. The only question is, do you have the strength to sink it in and come back up with it. It's not like you put 200+kg on your back and all of a sudden your flexibility disappears!!

For me, there's not much point in trying to go ass to grass. I mean if you wanna, go for it. But getting a weight below parallel's a nice easily determinable (and consistent!) measure of whether or not you're getting stronger. It's not like squatting high and saying "ohhh I was 4 inches high here and 6 inches high a month ago, so I must have got stronger!"

If you want a good laugh, look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59a_gka4eDc

It's from about 2 years ago when I was about 20kg lighter!! (I only found it again today looking thru my youtube).

Osteosam

From the point of view of an Osteopath (am I brave or foolish to weigh into this?!?!:eek:) I can partly agree with what the osteopath has said about small range movements, however can also see where the patient might be miffed by such advice. It is totally common (as has been mentioned by other posters) that the majority of the population is incapable of doing a full range exercise such as a squat, without creating significant compensations and effectively making the exercise pointless, if not counterproductive. I'd much rather see a patient doing a restricted range exercise with perfect form, than a full range one with all sorts of other parts of their body kicking in to help. Of course the ideal is to be able to complete a full range movement with good form, and with suitable time and training this is possible for many, though also impossible for perhaps an equal proportion.

In my practice (which incidently earns me only a modest income, has taken 5 years to build to a consistently steady income with many fluctuations to be accounted for, lots of professional development costs to factor in and surprising levels of expenses for something which requires just a pair of qualified hands and a bench , but which I love dearly!) I often find it a more realistic approach to accept that people do all sorts of things with their bodies which can't be totally eliminated and asking people not to do these things is pointless. In the ideal world everyone would have the time and dedication to do things which only benefit them, but then no-one would be able to hold down an average job as we all do things repetitively which the body hates, and no-one would get to get out there and have fun pushing themselves in whatever way they choose. Idealism really doesn't cut it in Osteopathic practice unless you wish to alienate your patients. Education however does....

I'd say if you're getting good results from the treatment then perhaps just smile and nod while he presents his opinions, or even better ask him to explain the WHY behind his opinions... a good therapist of any kind will be able to explain the physiological and anatomical reasons for any opinion - the mere fact that it's a commonly held (mis)conception doesn't cut it if you can't say WHY!

If he still won't accept that your body and life are yours to do what you wish, and he's simply there to help you do what you do, to the best of your ability, then perhaps it is time to start the search for a newie!...

(I'll be in Ireland in 2010 offering my "yeah... it's your body, do what you will" style of Osteopathy if you're still on the hunt... :rolleyes:)

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

That's some serious squatting but you have the mass to withhold that weight. I look skinny next to you and people think I'm stocky and I'm almost 189lbs @ 12%bf.

He's signing autographs in Hercs gym later, 5pm, he might sign a print out of this topic if you bring it.

With that sort of weight you are squatting, I'd imagine it's exceptionally difficult to go down even lower right? So am I right in trying to squat hams to calfs pretty much every time or should I be going just below parallel every time because let's face it, as I increase my squatting weight, how unlikely is it that I'll be able to do a full deep squat? Is it genetic how low people can go?

Look I'll expand on the last big post i made because it's really simple when you understand it. Usually, when I say the next bit, I get a lot of angry responses so I'll just steel myself for those as well. If anything, this topic has highlighted what I mean.

Most people are not ready for heavy resistance training.

By that I don't mean that people are unable to lift things, or that they're weak, or that they have something wrong with them. What I mean is that they have spent a lifetime doing things that are bad for you. Be that sitting in an office chair, lifting badly, walking with bad posture or even just doing nothing. I'll refer again to my made up statistic, 90% of people have bad movement patterns, in this case a bad squat. When we add weight to a bad movement pattern, we end up with injury. Everyone has compensations, some of which are livable with even at high weights, but most of which is preventable if people did it correctly and mastered bodyweight movements and gained the appropriate strength, balance and flexibility first. How many people do you kow who start lifting and within a few weeks are complaining about their ankle, knee, hip, back, ribs, shoulder? Sooner or later, you break at your weakest point.

Now I've run into problems with people on this forum before thanks to my opinions on matters like these so in an attempt to be diplomatic on the matter I'll just say that you're all great and attractive to the opposite sex.

Osteosam

Roper wrote: »

What I mean is that they have spent a lifetime doing things that are bad for you. Be that sitting in an office chair, lifting badly, walking with bad posture or even just doing nothing. I'll refer again to my made up statistic, 90% of people have bad movement patterns, in this case a bad squat. When we add weight to a bad movement pattern, we end up with injury. Everyone has compensations, some of which are livable with even at high weights, but most of which is preventable if people did it correctly and mastered bodyweight movements and gained the appropriate strength, balance and flexibility first. How many people do you kow who start lifting and within a few weeks are complaining about their ankle, knee, hip, back, ribs, shoulder? Sooner or later, you break at your weakest point.

Now I've run into problems with people on this forum before thanks to my opinions on matters like these so in an attempt to be diplomatic on the matter I'll just say that you're all great and attractive to the opposite sex.

People using their bodies poorly is what keeps us Osteopaths in work!!

As for being attractive to the opposite sex... well yeah, from a distance... but then I maybe have a tendency to think far too much about "function" cause what use is a hot bod if you have pain, or haven't got the flexibility to get into certain positions?!? :eek:

Mikel

Roper wrote: »

Most people are not ready for heavy resistance training.

By that I don't mean that people are unable to lift things, or that they're weak, or that they have something wrong with them. What I mean is that they have spent a lifetime doing things that are bad for you. Be that sitting in an office chair, lifting badly, walking with bad posture or even just doing nothing. I'll refer again to my made up statistic, 90% of people have bad movement patterns, in this case a bad squat. When we add weight to a bad movement pattern, we end up with injury. Everyone has compensations, some of which are livable with even at high weights, but most of which is preventable if people did it correctly and mastered bodyweight movements and gained the appropriate strength, balance and flexibility first. How many people do you kow who start lifting and within a few weeks are complaining about their ankle, knee, hip, back, ribs, shoulder? Sooner or later, you break at your weakest point..

By this do you mean imbalances?
If so I'd agree.
Also they are bound to lead to injury at some point.
How many people have got injuyed and the physio has told them of an imbalance of some kind?
It makes sense to me to smooth these out at the start before adding loads.

To the OP, is there a powerlifting or rugby club near you who would be able to recommend somebody?

Macha

brianthebard wrote: »

Don't suppose you are near Galway? My chiropractor knows what a squat looks like and a little bit about powerlifting, so he's not going to tell you off for doing it or wanting to. (he's qualified in Canada btw)

Afraid not - and just to open another can of worms, I have heard a few negative things about chiropractors..

Osteosam wrote: »

It is totally common (as has been mentioned by other posters) that the majority of the population is incapable of doing a full range exercise such as a squat, without creating significant compensations and effectively making the exercise pointless, if not counterproductive. I'd much rather see a patient doing a restricted range exercise with perfect form, than a full range one with all sorts of other parts of their body kicking in to help. Of course the ideal is to be able to complete a full range movement with good form, and with suitable time and training this is possible for many, though also impossible for perhaps an equal proportion.

If he had said to me - "In general squatting to parallel is fine but you have problems with flexibility and so it isn't a good idea" that would have been one thing. But he actually told me I am very flexible and then went on to say that no one should squat lower than the 2nd picture from the left as shown below:



He also bragged about how the weightlifting world used to be into deep knee bends (same thing as squats??) until the osteopathic community set them straight. When I tried to point out that my brother (pro athlete) squats and that heck, the All Blacks incorporate squats into their training, he said that he sees a lot of rugby players with problems (therefore proving that squatting was bad ). So I gave up.

Mikel wrote: »

To the OP, is there a powerlifting or rugby club near you who would be able to recommend somebody?

Yeah, I'll ask my physio for a recommendation - probably should have done that in the first place.

brianthebard

taconnol wrote: »

Afraid not - and just to open another can of worms, I have heard a few negative things about chiropractors..

Sure, but I'm hearing bad things about oesteopaths on this thread! I know a lot of people wouldn't go to a chiropractor, but he works with the galway football and rugby teams, isn't trying to get me to give up lifting, and immediately knew I had a slipped disc when he poked it, unlike the physio I had seen before that who didn't know, and gave me stretches to do that might have further aggravated it. I'm not saying this to defend the guy or the profession, just that I think the particular chiropractor I'm seeing is familiar with weightlifting. You just need to find someone similar, doesn't have to be a chiropractor.

*stands back* now it looks like a rant, boo.

edit: the point I was trying to get at is I don't think the profession matters so much as who the person is. Within reason of course.

Macha

brianthebard wrote: »

Sure, but I'm hearing bad things about oesteopaths on this thread!

edit: the point I was trying to get at is I don't think the profession matters so much as who the person is. Within reason of course.

This thread is about one bad osteopath, not the practice of osteopathy. I've heard bad things about chiropractic from other medical professionals but they are all main stream professionals and it could have stemmed from an automatic suspicion of any "alternative" medicine.

To be honest I don't know enough about it to knock it. And you're absolutely right - the individual professional is very important.

Edit: I have to say, though, that I have a lot of respect for Ben Goldacre and he doesn't hold them in very high repute..:

http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/silence-dissent/

Osteosam

brianthebard wrote: »

Sure, but I'm hearing bad things about oesteopaths on this thread! ...........

.........immediately knew I had a slipped disc when he poked it, unlike the physio I had seen before that who didn't know, and gave me stretches to do that might have further aggravated it. ....

........ You just need to find someone similar, doesn't have to be a chiropractor.

edit: the point I was trying to get at is I don't think the profession matters so much as who the person is. Within reason of course.

Not so much bad professional wrap I hope, more one practitioner who likes to spout off about something that he believes without giving the patient the benefit of adequate justification.

Ummm, I really do hope that your chiropractor didn't use the words "you have a slipped disc" ie that you have applied your own terminology to this... at risk of seeming anti-chiro (which isn't true as several of my most-favourite people are chiro's) - it is a physiological impossibility for a disc to slip. It can however herniate, bulge or tear. And no, you can't always feel them unless there is muscle guarding or neurological signs associated.

It is great though, that you have a practitioner who provides you with a well rounded approach to treatment including exercises and stretches and you're right, it is definitely more about finding the right practitioner for you... I think it's foolish to beleive that all osteo's will always be better than all Chiro's or all physio's or all anything. As this very thread illustrates!

Taconnell - back to the original topic - A possibility for the reasoning to his adamant "no squat below this particular point" may be that beyond a certain range of motion, there is more chance of joint damage than there is of having a beneficial effect on the muscle. If you have the conditioned strength in that particular joint to control the movement, then the joint is relatively protected, if not, the joint is often taken well beyond a healthy range. Now I don't prescribe or advise on things like squats, mainly as I don't see many patients who require such advice and so haven't looked into weightlifting biomechanics enough to know.... But in general beyond a given range, especially with added external weight, the average person will not be able to control the movement, and will be taking the joint beyond it's normal passive (elastic) barrier to the anatomical barrier. This barrier is where joint damage begins to really become a legitimate worry.

Perhaps this element of joint function is what has your Osteopath declaring deep squats to be the devil.... I'm only hypothesising. One way or another he really should be able to tell you why he believes what he believes, rather than resorting to simple brags and "cause i say so's". Far too many practitioners expect their patients to unquestioningly believe every last word they say, and don't believe they need to adequately explain WHY, simply cause they have the professional qualification and that's that.... I think that's crap. Anyone giving any advice really owes it to their patient (and themselves, or they'd better be ready for when inquisitive patients who didn't get good answers start to complain) to be able to back up their advice with good, solid, anatomy and physiology and preferably research based explanations.

Anyway, that's my rant.. haha. And I claim to be not idealistic in patient management... perhaps just a little idealistic in the standards and respect practitioners should uphold for their patients.

brianthebard

Osteosam wrote: »

Not so much bad professional wrap I hope, more one practitioner who likes to spout off about something that he believes without giving the patient the benefit of adequate justification.

Ummm, I really do hope that your chiropractor didn't use the words "you have a slipped disc" ie that you have applied your own terminology to this... at risk of seeming anti-chiro (which isn't true as several of my most-favourite people are chiro's) - it is a physiological impossibility for a disc to slip. It can however herniate, bulge or tear. And no, you can't always feel them unless there is muscle guarding or neurological signs associated.


Anyway, that's my rant.. haha. And I claim to be not idealistic in patient management... perhaps just a little idealistic in the standards and respect practitioners should uphold for their patients.

No he never refers to it as a slipped disc, I was using the common terminology. Mine is herniated, or slightly but not terribly so. There was hyoge muscle guarding with mine, if you mean the muscles around it tensing up to protect it? anyways this is off topic, I just wanted to clarify. I like your idealism man! Its good to hear someone talk about what they do in an engaged way.

Osteosam

brianthebard wrote: »

I like your idealism man! Its good to hear someone talk about what they do in an engaged way.

Wo-Man.....;)

And honestly, I just believe people and patients deserve to be shown respect for their own intelligence, and jokers who expect otherwise are giving their fellow practitioners a bad name... grrr. :mad:

Roper

Roper wrote: »

He's signing autographs in Hercs gym later, 5pm, he might sign a print out of this topic if you bring it.


Look I'll expand on the last big post i made because it's really simple when you understand it. Usually, when I say the next bit, I get a lot of angry responses so I'll just steel myself for those as well. If anything, this topic has highlighted what I mean.

Most people are not ready for heavy resistance training.

By that I don't mean that people are unable to lift things, or that they're weak, or that they have something wrong with them. What I mean is that they have spent a lifetime doing things that are bad for you. Be that sitting in an office chair, lifting badly, walking with bad posture or even just doing nothing. I'll refer again to my made up statistic, 90% of people have bad movement patterns, in this case a bad squat. When we add weight to a bad movement pattern, we end up with injury. Everyone has compensations, some of which are livable with even at high weights, but most of which is preventable if people did it correctly and mastered bodyweight movements and gained the appropriate strength, balance and flexibility first. How many people do you kow who start lifting and within a few weeks are complaining about their ankle, knee, hip, back, ribs, shoulder? Sooner or later, you break at your weakest point.

Now I've run into problems with people on this forum before thanks to my opinions on matters like these so in an attempt to be diplomatic on the matter I'll just say that you're all great and attractive to the opposite sex.

No problems with me boy, you gotta get it off your chest so go for it. But he is a big guy so I may pop down for an autograph anyway.

You train people so you can make up statistics based on what you see. I don't so I won't but all I can say is that I have never ever injured myself in the gym from doing something through bad form (with the exception of that time when I was lunging incorrectly with dumbbells and placing my knee on the ground with each lunge :pac:) but seriously, the only time I have ever injured myself has been through non impact injuries in football or Soccer (the most dangerous sport on earth - fact according to Mr Rippetoe). And they were never that serious anyway - just niggly.

Are you attractive to the opposite sex Roper? I am.

Mikel

Deleted User wrote: »

all I can say is that I have never ever injured myself in the gym from doing something through bad form (with the exception of that time when I was lunging incorrectly with dumbbells and placing my knee on the ground with each lunge :pac:)

Good for you and long may that continue.
But how long are you training?
Does it mean it won't happen tomorrow?

In any event, I don't think the point was bad form, it was a poor foundation leading to injury as the weight is increased.
This may lead to chronic rather than acute injuries.
Things like a hamstring going every so often, shin splints, back pain that is difficult to pin down.
Your form could be perfect but if your body is coping with the weight in an asymmetric fashion it is likely that something will complain.

Roper

Mikel wrote: »

In any event, I don't think the point was bad form, it was a poor foundation leading to injury as the weight is increased.
This may lead to chronic rather than acute injuries.
Things like a hamstring going every so often, shin splints, back pain that is difficult to pin down.
Your form could be perfect but if your body is coping with the weight in an asymmetric fashion it is likely that something will complain.

Exactly.

As regards your earlier question about imbalances, yes.

The Entrepeneur wrote:

You train people so you can make up statistics based on what you see. I don't so I won't but all I can say is that I have never ever injured myself in the gym from doing something through bad form (with the exception of that time when I was lunging incorrectly with dumbbells and placing my knee on the ground with each lunge ) but seriously, the only time I have ever injured myself has been through non impact injuries in football or Soccer (the most dangerous sport on earth - fact according to Mr Rippetoe). And they were never that serious anyway - just niggly.

You're missing the point. You'll rarely if ever injure yourself in the gym. Injuries for sportsmen and casual trainers alike do not occur when squatting or benching (impact injuries aside). Nobody with a big bench press and no pulling power ever strains their chest, the problems occur in their shoulder, their back and so on. And yes the statistics I creatively invented earlier are based on what I see, and while I've never done any analysis on that, 90% is a pretty good number.

My problem was with your statement, presented as fact, which is on a forum where a lot of newbies to fitness and lifting will come for advice that

it's going right down till your hams touch your calfs basically and can be done by anybody within reason

One of my coaches terms it the "data pool of one", where someone believes because they got results doing something that the population at large is wrong if they do something different. I'm not trying intentionally to get at you or to snipe, just advising care with your assumptions.

Ah no that's fair enough. It's just been drilled into me through training that going down that deep is a proper squat and most people should be able to do it but then again, maybe not?

Roper

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah no that's fair enough. It's just been drilled into me through training that going down that deep is a proper squat and most people should be able to do it but then again, maybe not?

You're right, most people should be able to do a proper squat after some correct training to get them there if they couldn't do it already.

What are the main advantages to squatting parallel vs full deep squats? I keep thinking I'd be able to squat more going to just parallel as opposed to going that good bit further down.