HELP VRT is driving me mad

LoveDucati2

Hi guys

Could someone in VRT Dept. land please explain where you pull the OMSP prices from. Who the Flup makes them up

I am looking at a Fab 06 Jaguar XJ 2.7 tdvi in UK for €18,000 euro, in the colour I love, and I really love these cars, and I wanna buy it so I check with the revenue website.

OMSP says car is 70 thousand Euro, that it be €24,000 VRT please

Carzone have these around the 40k mark

Whats goin on?

I am so p1ssed off at the way they treat us here

What can we do, I dont want to pay them 24k and then appeal it after because the chances of getting money back from them afterwards is ZERO

Guy:Incognito

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

What can we do, I dont want to pay them 24k and then appeal it after

Well you could try doing exactly as the representitive from the revenue said the few times I've heard him on the radio.

Put together a decent case why the OMSP should be lower, with as much detail as possible, and present it to them to have it lowered.

What yu dont do is go in ranting that it shoudl be lower because you dont want to pay that much or rant online.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

because the chances of getting money back from them afterwards is ZERO

Not true, theres people on this very site that have got rebates.

Owen

Your last thread on this subject this morning was locked, and you started the same thread again?

LoveDucati2

Ah Stekelly you're no Fun. Lighten up

Stekelly wrote: »

Well you could try doing exactly as the representitive from the revenue said the few times I've heard him on the radio.

Put together a decent case why the OMSP should be lower, with as much detail as possible, and present it to them to have it lowered.


€24,000 VRT on a car that costs €18,000, what case do I need to prove


What yu dont do is go in ranting that it shoudl be lower because you dont want to pay that much or rant online.


Ranting is FUN, we need to Expose this as an illegal TAX



Not true, theres people on this very site that have got rebates.

Agreed but the fact you have to pay first then appeal is wrong

Anan1

Have you ever locked a thread yet, ned78? Go on, you know you want to!:D

Owen

lol, no Anan1, my super dooper powers apply to the A&A forum only

Mods 2 - 0 LoveDucati2 :rolleyes:

smash

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

What can we do, I dont want to pay them 24k and then appeal it after because the chances of getting money back from them afterwards is ZERO

Actually most appeals are successful believe it or not!

Mr. Presentable

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Hi guys

Could someone from the morons in VRT Dept. land please explain where you pull the OMSP prices from. Who the Flup makes them up

I am looking at a Fab 06 Jaguar XJ 2.7 tdvi in UK for €18,000 euro, in the colour I love, and I really love these cars, and I wanna buy it so I check with the theiving blustards revenue website.

OMSP says car is 70 Fecking thousand Euro, that it be €24,000 VRT please

Carzone have these around the 40k mark

Whats goin on?

I am so p1ssed off at the way these counts treat us here

What can we do, I dont want to pay them 24k and then appeal it after because the chances of getting money back from them afterwards is ZERO

OK, so you'll end up paying the going rate. Sounds like the Rev have it about right!

LoveDucati2

ned78 wrote: »

Your last thread on this subject this morning was locked, and you started the same thread again?

nice to see the religious out to ruin peoples fun

it was locked because of my language which i have modified

it is a genuine valid discussion

ninty9er

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

it is a genuine valid discussion

...that has been done ad nauseum. It's not like it's a what car should I buy thread where the answer varies. The answer has and always will be the same while VRT exists.

Cookie_Monster

Stekelly wrote: »

Well you could try doing exactly as the representitive from the revenue said the few times I've heard him on the radio.

Put together a decent case why the OMSP should be lower, with as much detail as possible, and present it to them to have it lowered.

€24k is a lot to hand over and hope for an appeal though:eek:

LoveDucati2

ninty9er wrote: »

...that has been done ad nauseum. It's not like it's a what car should I buy thread where the answer varies. The answer has and always will be the same while VRT exists.

I understand that its been done ad nauseum, sorry for boring you

but surely its about time that we in this country actually did something to make a change

has anyone got any valid ideas on how we go and change the system


I have paid VRT before on cars and on motorbikes, I have appealed it before and it just gets dragged out.

I do not mind paying VRT on a car that I love but 24k VRT on a car costing 18k is criminal.

VRT should be on the price paid for the product

not on an invented figure assigned to it by a dept. oblivious to whats going on in the markets today.

Guy:Incognito

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

VRT should be on the price paid for the product
.

Yeah, great plan. Imagine the amount of Ferraris coming into the country that people have receipts fot saying the paid €2000 for it.

Wacko

I don't want to drag the thread too off topic, but I was wondering, do you pay VRT on VRT ? i.e. if the OMSP is say 20 grand, which for arguments sake is the price in the garage down the road, that already includes VRT paid by the garage bringing the car in, pushing the price and value in this country up, at 20 per cent, 4 grand of that 20 could be VRT, so the real price would be 16 grand exVRT................ I am confusing myself now so if that made any sense at all are people paying tax on tax.

LoveDucati2

Stekelly wrote: »

Yeah, great plan. Imagine the amount of Ferraris coming into the country that people have receipts fot saying the paid €2000 for it.

I know what you mean, but I will have a genuine receipt from a Jaguar dealer in UK for £16,999

Owen

But it's easy to get a genuine receipt saying whatever you want it to say.

Guy:Incognito

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

I know what you mean, but I will have a genuine receipt from a Jaguar dealer in UK for £16,999

and what of the people with dodgey receipts? Would you be happy that somone else paid vrt on €2000 whereas you paid it on £18,000 for the same car.

What about people who buy privately?

It BeeMee

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Carzone have these around the 40k mark

So you save 2 grand by buying here, without all the hassle of travelling etc?

Happy days!

kluivert

For the OP

What you do here is go to the VRO office.

Go to register the car and then say that you what to recline from registering the car as the OMSP as stated by the Revenue are incorrect and you would like them to investigate the correct OMSP.

Provide three examples of similiar cars with prices from registered SIMI dealers.

She will take this together with your details and send to their main VRO office.

She should give you a note, to cover you for 10 days until they have it sorted out.

I went to the VRO in Dundalk last July 08, I told them that the CO2 emissions on their site was incorrect and she was able to process my application with the lower CO2 rate as per the V5.

If you produce the Invoice as well from the place you bought it from, this should also assist your application.

BillyGoatGruff

Wacko wrote: »

I don't want to drag the thread too off topic, but I was wondering, do you pay VRT on VRT ? i.e. if the OMSP is say 20 grand, which for arguments sake is the price in the garage down the road, that already includes VRT paid by the garage bringing the car in, pushing the price and value in this country up, at 20 per cent, 4 grand of that 20 could be VRT, so the real price would be 16 grand exVRT................ I am confusing myself now so if that made any sense at all are people paying tax on tax.

On the nose Wacko. We are paying VRT on VRT. Sure t'is Ireland after all. :rolleyes:

drunkmonkey

kluivert wrote: »

For the OP

What you do here is go to the VRO office.

Go to register the car and then say that you what to recline from registering the car as the OMSP as stated by the Revenue are incorrect and you would like them to investigate the correct OMSP.

.

Are you within your rights to do that, anytime i've queryed it they say you have to pay the VRT first and then try and make a claim.

I really hope this is possible as they've tried to Jockey me this morning, OSMP €17,000 - Main Dealer cost €10,000:mad:

Waiting on a phone call back while they calculate the VRT, they are insting I pay the VRT then challenge the OSMP...

tbh, at this stage i'd nearly burn the car i'm that enraged.., the VRT is more than I paid for it, and I have a recipt:mad:

DanGlee

Do you have to go into the VRO or Online to get the price? I ask this because I would prefer to ring up (as I'm in work). I checked the online price and they didn't have my exact car.

The other problem is, I tried to go in and blag a freebie as I'm from the UK... but living here 8 years... they had me sused though when I shown them the dodgy documents, so I made my excuses and left... without actually giving them any car details!

I've been quoted online €2500 for my smart roadster, which is going for about £10k / €13/14k but the value should be around €18k as its Brabus, so I'm suspecting the OMSP is around the higher price.

I've avoided it for a while but think I should be getting around to changing it, but was waiting for 2009 so the car would be a year older...

VRT is a scam.

Oh and I checked a website... DO NOT! Give anybody (Customers or Guards) your keys if they get pulled... if even they ask, because they can't legally take the car off you!.

CJhaughey

DanGlee wrote: »

Oh and I checked a website... DO NOT! Give anybody (Customers or Guards) your keys if they get pulled... if even they ask, because they can't legally take the car off you!.

Hmm, I don't think this is good advice. Customs want the Car they will take it legally and there is not a thing you can do.
After all you are evading tax....

whippet

DanGlee wrote: »

Oh and I checked a website... DO NOT! Give anybody (Customers or Guards) your keys if they get pulled... if even they ask, because they can't legally take the car off you!.

terrible mis-information.

customs in ireland have far reaching powers, siezure of goods which do not have applicable taxes, duties etc paid on is one.

LoveDucati2

It BeeMee wrote: »

So you save 2 grand by buying here, without all the hassle of travelling etc?

Happy days!

yeah its beginning to look like that, only difference is spec, and condition is better in the UK.

but I will have 24,000 reasons to buy the Irish one

LoveDucati2

ned78 wrote: »

But it's easy to get a genuine receipt saying whatever you want it to say.

But it will be a genuine receipt from a Jaguar dealer

Owen

A receipt is worth the paper it's written on. I could print you any number of receipts if you'd like.

LoveDucati2

ned78 wrote: »

A receipt is worth the paper it's written on. I could print you any number of receipts if you'd like.

Sure thing Ned, what ever you say

And when revenue phone the genuine Jaguar dealer who are a registered business, with a verifable address, premises, phone, VAT no., website, directors ETC.

Owen

lol, the revenue won't phone your Jag dealer. That's why the receipt is worth the paper it's written on. The good old VRO's job is to bring in VRT for our Government, and they'll just go off OMSP, and charge accordingly.

If you have an issue with it, they'll just tell you to pay up, and contest it later.

Drummerboy08

You know what im thinking?

If you cant afford the €24,000 that you will need to pay in order to drive you XJ legally in this country, then your really wasting your time coming on here to complain about it.

Just by an irish car if you dont want to pay that much VRT. Or just buy a car you can afford to import.

BillyGoatGruff

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

You know what im thinking?

If you cant afford the €24,000 that you will need to pay in order to drive you XJ legally in this country, then your really wasting your time coming on here to complain about it.

Just by an irish car if you dont want to pay that much VRT. Or just buy a car you can afford to import.

Don't think the OPs issue is being able or not to afford VRT. He is complaining saying that the OMSP is excessivly high and is asking how he can appeal before rather than after paying it. I think kluiverts answer makes sense.

LoveDucati2

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

You know what im thinking?

If you cant afford the €24,000 that you will need to pay in order to drive you XJ legally in this country, then your really wasting your time coming on here to complain about it.

VRT is not a legal TAX, thats why it is been challenged in the European courts, unfortunately the case is going on 7 years + now.


Its not that I can't afford to pay it, its the fact that it is a criminal amount of money to hand over on a car costing 18,000 Euro :mad:


The fact is they are using an imaginary arbitrary system to come up with a value that has no place in reality and happily placing it on cars here. We should be doing something about this.

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Just by an irish car if you dont want to pay that much VRT. Or just buy a car you can afford to import.

I will be indirectly paying VRT if I purchase a 2nd hand car here anyway

LoveDucati2

kluivert wrote: »

For the OP

What you do here is go to the VRO office.

Go to register the car and then say that you what to recline from registering the car as the OMSP as stated by the Revenue are incorrect and you would like them to investigate the correct OMSP.

Provide three examples of similiar cars with prices from registered SIMI dealers.

She will take this together with your details and send to their main VRO office.

She should give you a note, to cover you for 10 days until they have it sorted out.

I went to the VRO in Dundalk last July 08, I told them that the CO2 emissions on their site was incorrect and she was able to process my application with the lower CO2 rate as per the V5.

If you produce the Invoice as well from the place you bought it from, this should also assist your application.

This is a great reply, its the 1st time I have heard of this, and I have imported and paid VRT on more than 10 vehicles over the last 10 years.

Drummerboy08

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

VRT is not a legal TAX, thats why it is been challenged in the European courts, unfortunately the case is going on 7 years + now.

See how legal it is when the law take a shine to you for not declaring it, and not paying your VRT.


Its not that I can't afford to pay it, its the fact that it is a criminal amount of money to hand over on a car costing 18,000 Euro :mad:

It is a criminal amount to pay, but thats the way it is at the minute. No length of ranting on here will change that.


The fact is they are using an imaginary arbitrary system to come up with a value that has no place in reality and happily placing it on cars here. We should be doing something about this.

The government will not reduce the OMSP of vehicles as far as i can see. They are short on cash as it is, so why would they volunteer more money to be lost?




I will be indirectly paying VRT if I purchase a 2nd hand car here anyway

???

Drummerboy08

Dunno what happened to that one!!

peasant

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Its not that I can't afford to pay it, its the fact that it is a criminal amount of money to hand over on a car costing 18,000 Euro :mad:

criminal ?

you're loosing the run of yourself

LoveDucati2

peasant wrote: »

criminal ?

you're loosing the run of yourself

thanks peasant

lost the run of myself years ago;)

drunkmonkey

peasant wrote: »

criminal ?

I'd agree with Ducati, at least if you were burgled you could make an Insurance claim...
So to sum it up i'd rather be burgled than hand money over for VRT, it is daylight theft and nothing else...

LoveDucati2

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd agree with Ducati, at least if you were burgled you could make an Insurance claim...
So to sum it up i'd rather be burgled than hand money over for VRT, it is daylight theft and nothing else...

Thanks Drunk, you brought a smile to my face.

Terrontress

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

This is a great reply, its the 1st time I have heard of this, and I have imported and paid VRT on more than 10 vehicles over the last 10 years.

I paid VRT on a vehicle at Santry. They had difficulty putting a price on it so did exactly this. I think it sounds to be correct.

It BeeMee

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

I will be indirectly paying VRT if I purchase a 2nd hand car here anyway

Eh, no.
You'll be refunding the seller some of the VRT they paid when they bought the car, but you'll contribute nothing to the Revenue coffers.
This is why Revenue are only too happy to see cars being imported, it means more money for them.

Terrontress

It BeeMee wrote: »

Eh, no.
You'll be refunding the seller some of the VRT they paid when they bought the car, but you'll contribute nothing to the Revenue coffers.
This is why Revenue are only too happy to see cars being imported, it means more money for them.

Never thought of it that way but you are spot on.

Guy:Incognito

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

VRT is not a legal TAX, thats why it is been challenged in the European courts, unfortunately the case is going on 7 years + now.

If it was illegal, why would the case take 7+ years?

Just because you say somethign is illegal it doesnt make it true.


Stealing is illegal, selling drugs is illegal, murder is illegal. That is why when someone is brought to court it is over and done with failry quick. If somethign is black and white illegal then it would not take 7 years.

Links to this case btw?

drunkmonkey

Stekelly wrote: »

If it was illegal, why would the case take 7+ years?

Just because you say somethign is illegal it doesnt make it true.


Stealing is illegal, selling drugs is illegal, murder is illegal. That is why when someone is brought to court it is over and done with failry quick. If somethign is black and white illegal then it would not take 7 years.

Links to this case btw?

here's your linky http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0919/VRT.html :rolleyes:, google a bit harder and you'll find more, look up the poland case for example , btw it's now 2009 and there still screwing us like hookers down a dark alley..

the last time I looked it up there was a deadline of something like 2012 the governemt had to get their house in order (i.e stop riding it's citizens), It's double taxation which goes against the whole notion of the EU, free movement of good and people.

I really don't understand why it dosen't make you furious (your either a public servant or work in the motor industry).

I pay enough tax in this country without getting fupped over for my love of motors...

Check out what you can pick up a Mazda RX8 in Northern Ireland for and then check out the VRT to drive it a mile down the Road.

Don't be defending the indefensible, it's not funny...

Guy:Incognito

drunkmonkey wrote: »

here's your linky http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0919/VRT.html :rolleyes:, google a bit harder and you'll find more, look up the poland case for example , btw it's now 2009 and there still screwing us like hookers down a dark alley..
...

Seriously? that same tired link that the "it's illegal" crowd have been draggin gup since it was published nearly 7 years ago?


A court ruling from 2002 is not an ongoing case, and VRT is still here and in other countries.
It's a reference to the Finnish system and even then its only "aspects " of it.

Every country charges a registration fee afaik, it's just very small in some of them. If it was illegal, a fee, regardless of how small wouldnt be getting paid anywhere.

Seriously, come up with somethign decent (nd new if possible).

The EU can call for whatever they like and throw recommendations around like confetti but if it was illegal they could just put a stop to it instantly.

LoveDucati2

stekelly

this guy is a civil servant, this is what the European law says now, I want this to be a valid discussion and not an argument with some retard who doesnt know when to shut up


VRT was introduced as a replacement for an illegal import duty

In 2002 the European Court of Justice ruled that aspects of VRT constitute a form of double taxation and are therefore illegal under the EU treaty. It also hinders free trade.

The European Commission has also called for the abolition of vehicle registration tax in the EU. Until its abolished they said that states should ensure that their VRT systems did not discriminate by imposing a double taxation burden on motorists importing second hand cars from other member states

There is a clear case that could be taken here on Irish VRT double taxation

Guy:Incognito

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

stekelly

this guy is a civil servant, this is what the European law says now, I want this to be a valid discussion and not an argument with some retard who doesnt know when to shut up

Any chance of throing a bit of punctuation in there so we know where sentences end and who they refer to?

Are you replying to me or calling me a civil servant?

I'm not, and even if I was, why would be the point of me defendign VRT? It's not like I'd be on commision or it's a private company that would fold if it were gotten rid of. Civil servant sdont gain anythign from collecting VRT.

That same stupid link has been trotted out loads of times down the years, it doesnt chnage anything.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

VRT was introduced as a replacement for an illegal import duty

Exactly, an illegal tax was replaced with a legal one.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

In 2002 the European Court of Justice ruled that aspects of VRT constitute a form of double taxation and are therefore illegal under the EU treaty. It also hinders free trade.

The European Commission has also called for the abolition of vehicle registration tax in the EU. Until its abolished they said that states should ensure that their VRT systems did not discriminate by imposing a double taxation burden on motorists importing second hand cars from other member states

There is a clear case that could be taken here on Irish VRT double taxation

So if it's so plainly illegal, why is it still here? and why is there countries with higher rates than ours?

Surely this groundshaking ruling in 2002 equalised tax actross the EU by elimintaing VRT? Whats that you say? it didnt?

peasant

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

There is a clear case that could be taken here on Irish VRT double taxation

You can be assured of the full moral support of this forum should you take it upon yourself to take this to the European courts.

But please stop moaning here ...it's been done to death.

drunkmonkey

Stekelly wrote: »

Civil servant dont gain anythign from collecting VRT.

ah hello, they get to keep there overpaid Jobs, rather than streamlining the whole process and cutting out the red tape... I wonder does the cost of running the whole VRT procress out way what they actually make? charge €2000 import duty on every used car and leave it at that.... I work 80+ hours a week, I don't need to be screwed just to drive home for work in a car I like...

It was ruiled it was illegal and ireland was pulled up on it, but they have bought some time (i will get you the proper links later), i'm off to do my vat return and try and keep some honest people in a job for a little while longer..

LoveDucati2

Thanks Drunk, glad you are here and that you talk some sense compared to the Tallaght civil service and VRT lovers brethern.

Stekelly

I will try and make this simple for you

VRT was introduced as a replacement for an illegal import duty

ok are you still with us

In 2002 the European Court of Justice ruled that aspects of VRT constitute a form of double taxation and are therefore illegal under the EU treaty.


This is final

peasant wrote: »

You can be assured of the full moral support of this forum should you take it upon yourself to take this to the European courts.

But please stop moaning here ...it's been done to death.

Sorry I do not mean to moan, I want support and ideas from all of your viewers on what to do from here on in.

There is another Irish courtcase, going on 11 years with no final judgement yet,

Judgment Title: Used Car Importers of Ireland Limited v The Minister for Finance & Ors

Neutral Citation: [2006] IEHC 90


High Court Record Number:1995 1988P

Date of Delivery:01/03/2006

VRT cases in other countries such as Finland and Belguim.

The Belgian case is excellent because he is looking for the VRT to be refunded on cars exported out of the country, can you imagine buying an 06 Jaguar 2.7 TDVI for €40k and getting a refund of ...you guessed it €24k to export to UK. Do the math on an 08 S class 500, VRT refund of 40k +.