Cancelling an o2 contract

Hanley

Hey guys, quick question for ya.

I ported to o2 bill pay from Meteor payg on 4/1/09. Just got a letter from o2 and it states in their T&C's (section 13);

"for a period of 14 days from when you port your number to o2 you may port your number back to your original operator without incurring any contract termination charge. You will however be responsible for all charges incurred by you during this porting period. PLEASE NOTE: Should you decide to port your number back to your original operator during the porting perood, any monies paid by you for your mobile phone are non refundable and your mobile phone may be unworkable and that o2 does not warrant, represent or guarantee in any way that a moblie phone will function or operate on any network other than the o2 network"

Does this mean I can cancel my o2 contract tomorrow, get my iphone unlocked and port back to meteor for nothing?? (obviously paying for my use on o2 in the last 10 days)

Hanley

I've read the entire T&C's as published on the o2 site now, and see nothing prohibiting me from doing it.

Is it simply just a case of going into a Meteor store and saying I wish to port over within the remit of the guarantee provided by o2 in the terms of conditions of their contract? Namely that I can go back to my original operator within 14 days?

I assume I'll get a bill off o2 for my charges to date. After that I suppose the thing to do is cancel any DD that stays in place so they can't screw me over.

Does this sound above board??

Sam Vimes

if you cancel the contract you have to give back the phone

jordainius

There is no way in a million years o2 would unlock it for you under these circumstances!! Do you really think that they would voluntarily leave themselves a few hundred euro out of pocket?

Sam Vimes

jordainius wrote: »

There is no way in a million years o2 would unlock it for you under these circumstances!! Do you really think that they would voluntarily leave themselves a few hundred euro out of pocket?

it wouldn't even get that far. they won't cancel the contract unless the phone is returned. if you could do what the OP is describing, o2 would now be bankrupt

samhail

i think thats covered under the distant selling laws but afaik if you open the mobile you have accepted.

try it out sure worst they could say is no

Hanley

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it wouldn't even get that far. they won't cancel the contract unless the phone is returned. if you could do what the OP is describing, o2 would now be bankrupt

In the T&C's there's two sections which give reference t o this - the first is that you can return everything and cancel the contract for a full refund in 7 days.

The second (which I quoted earlier) says that you're allowed port back to your old provider after 14 days, if you decide to do this, you receive no refund, and the phone may not work on other networks (obv with an iphone it definitely wouldn't). But the fact they talk about no refunds, and your phone not working on other networks makes it sound like you keep the phone tho it may not work.

There's ZERO reference to having to return the phone in the T&C's if you want to cancel the contract after 14 days.

samhail wrote: »

i think thats covered under the distant selling laws but afaik if you open the mobile you have accepted.

try it out sure worst they could say is no

Distant selling laws you say.... what are these now??

Sam Vimes

Hanley wrote: »

In the T&C's there's two sections which give reference t o this - the first is that you can return everything and cancel the contract for a full refund in 7 days.

The second (which I quoted earlier) says that you're allowed port back to your old provider after 14 days, if you decide to do this, you receive no refund, and the phone may not work on other networks (obv with an iphone it definitely wouldn't). But the fact they talk about no refunds, and your phone not working on other networks makes it sound like you keep the phone tho it may not work.

There's ZERO reference to having to return the phone in the T&C's if you want to cancel the contract after 14 days.

having worked in a phone shop i can tell you there are all manner of people trying every scam they can to get cheap phones and if you could do this they would be doing it. why would o2 write something into their T&C's that would leave them several hundred euro out of pocket with no comeback

pretty much every phone can be unlocked on moore street for a few euro and o2 knows this. saying "we won't unlock it and we won't guarantee it'll work" is no threat whatsoever because they don't have to unlock it and it will of course work on any network

edit:having read that more thoroughly that does actually appear to be what it's saying. wtf!?!? i'm going to call o2 about this and if they are actually that retarded i'm off to sign up to 300 contracts

Hanley wrote: »

Distant selling laws you say.... what are these now??

http://www.efc.ie/publications/legal_updates/articles/corpbank/distance_selling.html

Sam Vimes

i just called o2 and the girl seemed as shocked as me. she said she's going to ask the "big cheeses" as she put it tomorrow to get it explained better and she'll call me back

i told her there's no hurry because i'll be heading into an o2 shop with a few hundred sim cards tomorrow morning

i think you may have found the scammer's dream

drunkmonkey

Hanley wrote: »

Does this mean I can cancel my o2 contract tomorrow, get my iphone unlocked and port back to meteor for nothing??

From experience you will have to return the phone before termination of your contract is complete....i really hope your second name isn't hanley as 02 have probaby drawn a big red circle around every hanley that purchased an iphone in the last 14 days....:)

@Sam, will you pick me up an iphone tomorrow, cheers mate;)

Sam Vimes

sure i might as well get you two :pac:

Hanley

Sam Vimes wrote: »

edit:having read that more thoroughly that does actually appear to be what it's saying. wtf!?!? i'm going to call o2 about this and if they are actually that retarded i'm off to sign up to 300 contracts

Don't ruin it for me

What's the best way to go about this? Go into a meteor store and say I want to port back? They ring o2, o2 says I have amounts outstanding so they don't cancel?

Do I just then say FU o2, settle my debts, cancel the DD so they can't try to screw me over and tell them to read their contract and leave me alone??

EDIT: Just checked o2 online. Account balance = 0 - print screen and print!!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

From experience you will have to return the phone before termination of your contract is complete....i really hope your second name isn't hanley as 02 have probaby drawn a big red circle around every hanley that purchased an iphone in the last 14 days....:)

@Sam, will you pick me up an iphone tomorrow, cheers mate;)

Why's that? It's not like I'm doing anything that goes against what's stated in their contract....

I did call o2 to ask them, and the guy on the other end of the phone said "no that's not the case, you have to give back the phone". I responded and told him that it's not stated in the contract, the fact the phone wouldn't be refunded and that it may not work after cancelling the contract lead me to believe that it wasn't the case. He sounded quite flustered and said "oh sorry well that's just the way it is. Can I help you with anything else?".

At that stage it was like nope.... thanks! His reaction was enough to tell me I might actually have a shot at pulling it off.

These are the T&C's for the iphone 3g - http://www.o2online.ie/wps/wcm/connect/O2/About+O2/Terms+and+Conditions/iPhone+3G/

Can any one spot anything that says I'd have to give it back? (I refer to section 13 specifically)

Hanley

@drunkmonkey - how long after porting did you cancel your contract? did they refund the price of your phone? did you know to ask them about section 13 of their T&C's?

drunkmonkey

Hanley wrote: »

Why's that? It's not like I'm doing anything that goes against what's stated in their contract....

Firstly what your trying to do is unlawfull as your only trying to scam o2 out of an iphone on a technicality. this could fall under section 5 of there t's & c's...

5. Customer Obligations

By signing the Agreement Form, you agree that you will:

• not use the Services for any improper, immoral or unlawful purpose

Secondly, did you not read this bit in there T's & C's

11. IMPORTANT - YOUR RIGHT TO CHANGE YOUR MIND

if you are signed up to an O2 Pay Monthly Price Plan, return your Mobile Phone for a full refund within 7 days from the date of purchase of your Mobile Phone

Hanley

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Firstly what your trying to do is unlawfull as your only trying to scam o2 out of an iphone on a technicality. this could fall under section 5 of there t's & c's...

5. Customer Obligations

By signing the Agreement Form, you agree that you will:

• not use the Services for any improper, immoral or unlawful purpose

I would dispute that and say that I'm not using the "“Services” - the cellular telephone service and the Additional Services provided by O2 under this Agreement." for anything illegal.

The "service" mentioned is the phone service. Not the phone itself. You wouldn't agree?

And please, scam? I didn't sign up to o2 to do it intentionally, but if they tell me I can do it in the contract, then I'll try it. Truth be told I've got sh!t service with them so far. My iphone was unusable for 4 days because they messed up the original port, and wouldn't fix it til I went back in person.

Secondly, did you not read this bit in there T's & C's

11. IMPORTANT - YOUR RIGHT TO CHANGE YOUR MIND

if you are signed up to an O2 Pay Monthly Price Plan, return your Mobile Phone for a full refund within 7 days from the date of purchase of your Mobile Phone

I read and made reference to it in an earlier post....

Did YOU not read this bit;

13. IMPORTANT

EXISTING CUSTOMERS OF OTHER MOBILE OPERATORS/ PORTING

For a period of 14 days from when you Port your number (the “Porting Period”), you may port your number back to your original operator without incurring contract termination charges with O2. You will, however, be responsible for all Charges and other liabilities incurred by you during this Porting Period. PLEASE NOTE that should you decide to port your number back to your original operator during the Porting Period, any monies paid by you for your Mobile Phone are non refundable, your Mobile Phone may be unworkable and that O2 does not warrant, represent or guarantee in any way that the Mobile Phone will function or operate on any network other than the O2 Network.

No mention of having to give back the phone during the porting period there.

drunkmonkey

Did you buy the iphone online?

tbh, from reading the t's & c's it looks like they keep the money you paid for the phone and you keep the phone, that's the way i'm reading it...If you bought from a store they will demand the phone back without question...

Sam Vimes

this is true dm, i'd say any shop assistant will have the same reaction that you, me, and the o2 agents called by myself and the op had, ie "wtf that can't be right". You might eventually get it done but it'll be a lot of hassle while they sort out the facts

jordainius

I hope your "plan" fails miserably.

I hate scammers.

You can hide behind your "its not in their T's and C's all you like, the fact is you're trying to scam them and we all know it and you know it.

The fact now remains that you have indisputably signed a contract with o2 under false pretenses and I hope someone from o2 has stumbled across this thread so they will clearly see you publicly admitting that you have signed up to an iPhone contract under false pretenses.

Sam Vimes

jordainius wrote: »

The fact now remains that you have indisputably signed a contract with o2 under false pretenses

to be fair to him, he didn't know the condition existed until he got the terms and conditions in the post after he signed up so he didn't actually sign up under false pretences

Sam Vimes

the girl from o2 called me back and said that they'd blacklist the handset. i said that sounded like a misuse of the blacklisting system since the phone would not be stolen and anyway it said nothing about that in the T&C. she didn't know what to say.

she suggested i email the question to someone higher up so i think i'll do that

jordainius

Sam Vimes wrote: »

to be fair to him, he didn't know the condition existed until he got the terms and conditions in the post after he signed up so he didn't actually sign up under false pretences

I take your point but I doubt that o2 would see it that way!

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

drunkmonkey

Solitaryman666 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not blaiming 02 for the rip off, Apple taking revenue share from your o2 contract is the real culprit...:mad:

Dublinstiofán

Afaik O2 don't give a **** about what happens to the phone if you cancel your contract.

However they do care deerly about their iPhones. Personally I can see absoultely no chance of you successfully keeping it.

Do let us know what happens.

Sam Vimes

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Afaik O2 don't give a **** about what happens to the phone if you cancel your contract.

but wouldn't they care if they've just given you a €500 phone for €20 on the basis that you were going to be in contract for a year?

Dublinstiofán

Sam Vimes wrote: »

but wouldn't they care if they've just given you a €500 phone for €20 on the basis that you were going to be in contract for a year?

Better read that again sam. I said they WONT let him keep it under any circumstances.

O2_Daryll

Just to add my 2 cents guys,

We will require that you return the handset. The 14 Days(7 Days for iPhone) is like a cooling off period. if you don't like the handset or service you can port back to your network but you have to return everything that came with the phone before it is cancelled. If by some chance you handset is not returned we will black list it and you won't be able to use it on any network.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

Hanley

As others have said, it was not intentional.

I didn’t really think it thru, and with economic downturn I’m not sure if I can afford to keep on the bill. Especially after losing my fcuking iphone on the way to work today. I am NOT impressed. Makes a balls of everything tbh. Now I’ve a big contract, and no phone. And even if I do get out of it, I’ll be none the better off.

Karma, eh?

What’s blacklisting anyway? Sounds like a pretty cynical and illegal move.

ardmacha

However if the OP is supposed to return the handset then O2 should refund the (subsidised) cost of the handset. I'd say the O2 T&C drafting is a bit suspect.

Sam Vimes

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Better read that again sam. I said they WONT let him keep it under any circumstances.

i know you said they care about iPhones but this term applies to all contracts and not just iPhones.

Sam Vimes

Talk2O2: Daryll wrote: »

Just to add my 2 cents guys,

We will require that you return the handset. The 14 Days(7 Days for iPhone) is like a cooling off period. if you don't like the handset or service you can port back to your network but you have to return everything that came with the phone before it is cancelled. If by some chance you handset is not returned we will black list it and you won't be able to use it on any network.

that's the policy i always followed but that's not what item 13 says. it clearly states you won't get any refund for the phone

justsomebloke

iphone 3GT&C wrote:

For a period of 14 days from when you Port your number (the “Porting Period”), you may port your number back to your original operator without incurring contract termination charges with O2. You will, however, be responsible for all Charges and other liabilities incurred by you during this Porting Period.

This is from the iphone's T&Cs, the fact that they mention other liabilities would probably leave the door open for them to request the phone back

Sam Vimes

Joe the Santa wrote: »

This is from the iphone's T&Cs, the fact that they mention other liabilities would probably leave the door open for them to request the phone back

i was thinking that but it does say you won't get any money back for the phone. demanding the phone back with no refund makes no more sense than allowing someone to keep it

justsomebloke

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i was thinking that but it does say you won't get any money back for the phone. demanding the phone back with no refund makes no more sense than allowing someone to keep it

As some phones they probably couldn't care less about having returned to them they have probably put that in to confirm that they won't unlock any phone that you may have kept however still having the liabilities section included leaves them open to request any number of varying charges that they may have incurred doing the porting including the cost of the phone so yes they might let you keep it but they then may charge you the price of an unlocked phone instead

Sam Vimes

Joe the Santa wrote: »

As some phones they probably couldn't care less about having returned to them they have probably put that in to confirm that they won't unlock any phone that you may have kept however still having the liabilities section included leaves them open to request any number of varying charges that they may have incurred doing the porting including the cost of the phone so yes they might let you keep it but they then may charge you the price of an unlocked phone instead

so the term is that you can cancel the contract without termination charges but they won't refund you for the phone so you can either let them blacklist it, leaving you out the money you paid for it or pay probably €500 to get up to the sim free price?

that just sounds ridiclous tbh

justsomebloke

Sam Vimes wrote: »

so the term is that you can cancel the contract without termination charges but they won't refund you for the phone so you can either let them blacklist it, leaving you out the money you paid for it or pay probably €500 to get up to the sim free price?

that just sounds ridiclous tbh

I know I was exaggerating the point but without knowing exactly what they deem to be "other liabilities" we don't know what they may try and charge you when porting back but it does leave the door open for them to in some way charge you for a phone

Sully

Hanley wrote: »

As others have said, it was not intentional.

I didn’t really think it thru, and with economic downturn I’m not sure if I can afford to keep on the bill. Especially after losing my fcuking iphone on the way to work today. I am NOT impressed. Makes a balls of everything tbh. Now I’ve a big contract, and no phone. And even if I do get out of it, I’ll be none the better off.

Karma, eh?

What’s blacklisting anyway? Sounds like a pretty cynical and illegal move.

Good timing for the phone to go "missing" eh? :P

drunkmonkey

Sully wrote: »

Good timing for the phone to go "missing" eh? :P

lol, that's what I thought as well:D

Hanley

drunkmonkey wrote: »

lol, that's what I thought as well:D

It's ok.. I found it again

Gillo

Hanley wrote: »

What’s blacklisting anyway? Sounds like a pretty cynical and illegal move.

Basically its a way of disabling a phone so it won't work, in Ireland if a phone gets blacklisted on one network it'll be also be blacklisted on the other networks (if I recall correctly it'll also be blacklisted on UK networks). It's generally done if a phone is reported lost or stolen, and if a phone has been purchased in fraudulent circumstances.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

Hanley

Gillo wrote: »

Basically its a way of disabling a phone so it won't work, in Ireland if a phone gets blacklisted on one network it'll be also be blacklisted on the other networks (if I recall correctly it'll also be blacklisted on UK networks). It's generally done if a phone is reported lost or stolen, and if a phone has been purchased in fraudulent circumstances.

How do you know if it's happened?

What are the grounds that it can be done on?

And if it is done, is it reversable?

drunkmonkey

Hanley wrote: »

What are the grounds that it can be done on?

the only time i've requested phones to be blacklisted is if they are stolen from customers, i've never been scammed thankfully....you cancelling your contract wouldn't really be grounds to blacklist unless you were after scamming, false id's etc when buying the phone....

Sully

Well the chap from o2 support earlier says that it would be blacklisted. Assume he was obviously refering to the OP trying to pull a fast one and challenge o2s T&Cs.

If o2 were wrong but did it anyway OP, would you waste the cash challenging them in court? If they breached their T&Cs in your opinion?

billbond4

Gillo wrote: »

Basically its a way of disabling a phone so it won't work, in Ireland if a phone gets blacklisted on one network it'll be also be blacklisted on the other networks (if I recall correctly it'll also be blacklisted on UK networks). It's generally done if a phone is reported lost or stolen, and if a phone has been purchased in fraudulent circumstances.

Yeah when you power up your mobile and register with the network you send the IMEI of the phone to an Equipment Identity Register which checks it against blacklisted IMEI, if your IMEI is blacklisted the EIR will respond back and you wont be able to get on the network.
I think there is only one EIR for all the mobile operators in Ireland, and they have access to the international EIR as well.

Gillo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

the only time i've requested phones to be blacklisted is if they are stolen from customers, i've never been scammed thankfully....you cancelling your contract wouldn't really be grounds to blacklist unless you were after scamming, false id's etc when buying the phone....

But if the phone is bought at a subsidised price, on the basis the customer is going to stay with the network for a set period of time (in this case eighteen months) a decision may be made to blacklist the handset if the customer cancels the contract and leaves the network within a few weeks of signing up. I'm speculating at this stage though.

Hanley

Gillo wrote: »

But if the phone is bought at a subsidised price, on the basis the customer is going to stay with the network for a set period of time (in this case eighteen months) a decision may be made to blacklist the handset if the customer cancels the contract and leaves the network within a few weeks of signing up. I'm speculating at this stage though.

It says in the T&C's that they can't guarantee that the phone will work on any other networks, but it doesn't go so far as to say they'll take steps to actively ensure it doesn't.

I think that's a dubious line to cross? Especially since the phone was bought in good faith.(I can't emphasise that point enough - I did not buy the phone in an attempt to screw over o2.)

If it was bought in bad faith as a con job I would have signed up to the most expensive contract to ensure I got the phone at the most highly subsidised price. As it is, I joined the least expensive contract and paid the most possible for my phone, other than joining speakeasy).

Is there any way to reverse a black listing if it does happen? Any way of flashing the IMEI number?

O2_Daryll

The Blacklisting is set by the network so cannot be reversed by the handset or software that I am aware of.

pyramuid man

Changing the IMEI is highly illegal and is counted as fraud afaik.
Not possible to change it afaik

Hanley

pyramuid man wrote: »

Changing the IMEI is highly illegal and is counted as fraud afaik.
Not possible to change it afaik

Cool... thanks guys.

Can the network legally block a phone if you're not longer a customer of theirs? And if their grounds for doing so are nothing more than spite?