Irish Aid and the recession

j1smithy

I was looking at the budget that Irish Aid had in 2007, apparently the Irish government gave away €813m euro to developing countries. While this has to be commended, does anyone else think that charity should begin at home? The public sector is looking at a pay cut of €2billion, so the inevitable question must be asked, should we stop, or severely cut back on what is noble but we clearly cannot afford?

Pen1987

As far as I'm aware (possibly wrong now) aid works in loops. We donate to "little old Africa" and the EU gives "little old us" some stuff.

kowloon

Would hate to be the overpaid minister who proposes that cut.

The Saint

While the money could be put to some use here it is not going to potentially save 1000's of lives like it would in Africa. I don't think it's an excessive amount and would like to see us reach the UN target of 0.7% of GDP. From what I can work out in 2007 (the last years I could find a number for) we gave just over 0.4% of GDP in aid. It's always easier to say that we could use the money here but people were saying that in the good times too regarding the health service and such. It will make a marginal difference here. It will save lives in Africa.

kowloon

Full agreement with The Saint, our government lack the will or are too inept to put the money to good use anyway.

lostexpectation

consider it works on pecetnage in the long run it doens't matter if we in a recession.

silverharp

The Saint wrote: »

It will save lives in Africa.

If you have been putting money in your box for the "black babies" going back to god knows when , have you been getting a good bang for your buck? it seems to be one of those situations where things wouldnt be worse if they hadnt received a penny in aid.

The Saint

silverharp wrote: »

it seems to be one of those situations where things wouldnt be worse if they hadnt received a penny in aid.

Except there'd be a hell of a lot more people dead of starvation and disease not had they not recived aid.

j1smithy

The Saint wrote: »

Except there'd be a hell of a lot more people dead of starvation and disease not had they not recived aid.

An awful lot of that money is misspent anyway. perhaps it would be better put to use if it were cut in half and all given to NGO's rather than corrupt governments.

tallaght01

I don't think we should cut back what we give to developing countries. There's much less important things we can cut back on in Ireland.

And even though, when we're in a recession, you hear things like my dad saying he's gonna hold off buying a new car this year, but he's not too stressed by it. Compare his situation with a family of kids who've just lost their parents to AIDS, and the 12 year old girl is about to start working the streets to survive, while her brothers are getting involved in violent crime to get money.

Our recession really doesn't compare to their "economic downturn".

I do see the OPs point, but I just think there are other ways of saving money.

Capt'n Midnight

where is the poll option to increase aid ?

some other countries will cut back aid, and there will be less trade with the recipient countries so it would be needed more

ciano1

Double the Aid

Karma will thank us !!:D;)

therewillbe

How much money do these countries need? Save ourselves first.We have a list of needy charities here at our own doorstep.They seem to do nothing with the Billions that have gone over the years from all over the world.Allright in good times, but in bad,look after your own.

fryup

you know back in the time of live aid, when this country was on its knees financially ireland donated the highest amont per capita in the world on the day

Tricity Bendix

j1smithy wrote: »

An awful lot of that money is misspent anyway. perhaps it would be better put to use if it were cut in half and all given to NGO's rather than corrupt governments.

Irish Aid tends to spend its money very well, from what I can see. The money isn't just handed over to governments. Projects are evaluated and monitored.



Having said that, I once drank a pint of Guinness paid for by Irish Aid. It was after a MDG lecture in Trinity, and we all went out to the pub after.

thoker

think their Gov is any better than our shower of ****?. the make us like amateurs when it comes to corruption?:o

K-9

therewillbe wrote: »

How much money do these countries need? Save ourselves first.We have a list of needy charities here at our own doorstep.

YEP, Ethiopia is far less needy than Ireland.

Tricity Bendix

thoker wrote: »

think their Gov is any better than our shower of ****?. the make us like amateurs when it comes to corruption?:o

Again, its not like we just send Vietnam a lump of cash to do with as they see fit. The money is spent in partnership with the governments of a few selected countries, on projects designed and evaluated to help as many people as possible.

Africa does not need money - Africa needs political reform.

Nigeria has diamonds, oil a tropical climate where you can harvest a crop every 3 months..........
Africa also has alot of guns and corruption that hinders growth.

"Peace and Prosperity" isnt just a fancy phrase.

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote: »

Africa does not need money - Africa needs political reform.

Nigeria has diamonds, oil a tropical climate where you can harvest a crop every 3 months..........
Africa also has alot of guns and corruption that hinders growth.

"Peace and Prosperity" isnt just a fancy phrase.

Africa has a lot of other countries sticking their nose in African business, giving money under the name of aid, but in return forcing markets to be opened up, flooding the African market with goods the other countries need to get rid of, which swamps local industry and causes more misery and suffering. Those guns and corruption are maintained by various governments around the world who want to keep exploiting the resources of Africa, like in the Congo. Its great to look at things simplistically and be in a position to same "silly governments" or "stupid corruption, they need to sort themselves out", its another when we are preventing them from doing so. Even as Ireland gives all that money to Africa for instance, it takes far more with the other hand, under the banner of the neo colonialist EU. African fishing rights have been sold for a pittance to the EU, and while they would've been better used by the African nations themselves in order to develop and earn money, there's not much can be done if the EU tells you they'll call in your debts or cut off the aid tap if they aren't given what they want.

Dob74

I have heard nothing but bad stories about NGO's doing work in africa. If they are getting taxpayer money we should know how exactly the money is being spent. I am sure there is plenty of room for salary reductions amongst the staff in these NGO. I dont want to be paying for new alloys on the directors merc

tallaght01

Dob74 wrote: »

I have heard nothing but bad stories about NGO's doing work in africa. If they are getting taxpayer money we should know how exactly the money is being spent. I am sure there is plenty of room for salary reductions amongst the staff in these NGO. I dont want to be paying for new alloys on the directors merc

Problem is....to get the best guys running the charity, you gotta pay the wages.

I was involved with a few charities, who all paid peanuts. And they got monkeys working for them.

A top CEO will have a knowledge of fundraising and advertising/marketing. He'll also have lots of contacts, and negotiating experience. You don't get these guys for 40k a year.

professore

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't think we should cut back what we give to developing countries. There's much less important things we can cut back on in Ireland.

And even though, when we're in a recession, you hear things like my dad saying he's gonna hold off buying a new car this year, but he's not too stressed by it. Compare his situation with a family of kids who've just lost their parents to AIDS, and the 12 year old girl is about to start working the streets to survive, while her brothers are getting involved in violent crime to get money.

Our recession really doesn't compare to their "economic downturn".

I do see the OPs point, but I just think there are other ways of saving money.

Hello ? 80 women a year here are going to die because of the decision not to go ahead with the cervical cancer vaccination. And cuts in the health service will cost lives here too.

K-9

professore wrote: »

Hello ? 80 women a year here are going to die because of the decision not to go ahead with the cervical cancer vaccination. And cuts in the health service will cost lives here too.

Ah, we'll save €8 million if we put our minds to it.

And HSE Administrators cost our lives. 7/8 Health Boards amalgamated into the HSE for efficiency, not one loses a job.

No point blaming others for our feck ups.

tallaght01

professore wrote: »

Hello ? 80 women a year here are going to die because of the decision not to go ahead with the cervical cancer vaccination. And cuts in the health service will cost lives here too.

and 45 million people in developing countries have HIV.

African girls have more chance of being raped than of learning to read.

I agree our situation is bad, but in context it's not the worst.

Dob74

tallaght01 wrote: »

Problem is....to get the best guys running the charity, you gotta pay the wages.

I was involved with a few charities, who all paid peanuts. And they got monkeys working for them.

A top CEO will have a knowledge of fundraising and advertising/marketing. He'll also have lots of contacts, and negotiating experience. You don't get these guys for 40k a year.

When the gov is coughing up the money they dont need these hotshots. I worked for a charity when i was a student and they where no charity. I doubt any money got to the people who needed it. It was swallowed up by the people running it.

tallaght01

Dob74 wrote: »

When the gov is coughing up the money they dont need these hotshots. I worked for a charity when i was a student and they where no charity. I doubt any money got to the people who needed it. It was swallowed up by the people running it.

Because in your opinion, you thought your charity paid too much to it's head honchos, doesn't mean all charities are a waste of time :P

You can't really be saying we don't need effective aid agencies, are you?

Mont

Yes we should give more money to the people in Atari and hope they come out with another funky T-shirt

professore

tallaght01 wrote: »

and 45 million people in developing countries have HIV.

African girls have more chance of being raped than of learning to read.

I agree our situation is bad, but in context it's not the worst.

Yes I agree with your last sentence - but surely we should solve issues of life and death in our own country first ? If every government sorted out the problems in its own country first there would be far less problems.

On the first two please quote sources - not that I don't think there is a huge crisis in Africa but you need sources to back these stats up, otherwise they are in the "everybody knows" category.

Mont

tallaght01 wrote: »

and 45 million people in developing countries have HIV.

African girls have more chance of being raped than of learning to read.

I agree our situation is bad, but in context it's not the worst.

Ya but they dont know that stat. cause they cant read - so stop making things worse, if they knew about that they would be all paranoid

syklops

the year i was born, the population of ethiopia was 33million. Despite millions dying from starvation, the population is now about 75 million, and Ethiopia is still getting aid.

I think the aid needs to change to something other than just money.

Húrin

j1smithy wrote: »

I was looking at the budget that Irish Aid had in 2007, apparently the Irish government gave away €813m euro to developing countries. While this has to be commended, does anyone else think that charity should begin at home? The public sector is looking at a pay cut of €2billion, so the inevitable question must be asked, should we stop, or severely cut back on what is noble but we clearly cannot afford?

Do you really think that people here have problems along the scale of the problems people have in Africa? Irish Aid is among the last things that should be cut, not the first. If I was running the show I would increase it.

tallaght01

professore wrote: »

Yes I agree with your last sentence - but surely we should solve issues of life and death in our own country first ? If every government sorted out the problems in its own country first there would be far less problems.

On the first two please quote sources - not that I don't think there is a huge crisis in Africa but you need sources to back these stats up, otherwise they are in the "everybody knows" category.

I just noticed I wrote 45 million, when i meant to type 35 million (it was a genuine typo :P ).

If I get sources, will you agree with me? Coz I'm not rooting them out for nothing :P

Agamemnon

When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about a Live Aid-style concert called "Irish Aid" for all those affected by the recession. Thank fug it isn't. You can just picture the cheesy single that would be released to support it, with Bono, Knob Geldof and Ronan Wankshaft Keating looking all serious and concerned in the video, alongside scenes of dole queues and closed factories. We have dodged a bullet here, people. \o/

j1smithy

tallaght01 wrote: »

African girls have more chance of being raped than of learning to read.

I don't see how us giving money to these countries is going to prevent these girls from getting raped tbh. We might improve their literacy levels but we won't change the culture.

Anyway, I just cannot seem to be able to justify how our government can borrow money to give it away. I don't think many people would borrow money from the bank and give it to charity. In school we were taught in economics, that it was trade not aid that was required. Charity is good, however I cannot help but think how much good €600m euro would do if it was spent on Irish social services.

tallaght01

j1smithy wrote: »

I don't see how us giving money to these countries is going to prevent these girls from getting raped tbh. We might improve their literacy levels but we won't change the culture.

.

I guess the argument is that gender inequality and sexual abuse is more common in poorer, less educated populations. And more literate, educated, empowered girls will do something about it.

K-9

tallaght01 wrote: »

I guess the argument is that gender inequality and sexual abuse is more common in poorer, less educated populations. And more literate, educated, empowered girls will do something about it.

What a mad notion. Be Irish and Proud.

Holsten

Give nothing.

We need everything we have.

K-9

Holsten wrote: »

Give nothing.

We need everything we have.

Indeed. Stop the Black Babies fund.

randylonghorn

Dob74 wrote: »

I have heard nothing but bad stories about NGO's doing work in africa.

Sources? I have heard a hell of a lot of good stories, and mostly from local African community workers and teachers ... but your comment doesn't prove that everything's terrible, and mine doesn't prove that everything's perfect!

professore wrote: »

Hello ? 80 women a year here are going to die because of the decision not to go ahead with the cervical cancer vaccination. And cuts in the health service will cost lives here too.

So sell the Government jet. Make FitzPatrick pay his loans back. Take from the rich and reckless who got us into this mess, not the poorest of the poor.

j1smithy wrote: »

In school we were taught in economics, that it was trade not aid that was required.

Economics: the discipline noted for having a heart!! :pac:

Seriously, though, I wouldn't totally disagree: fair trade, though, and, while things may have got slightly better, there still isn't much of that around.

EamonnKeane

€50,000: build a school in Sierra Leone, or keep Jacinta and her seven children in a fancy house and booze and fags and Nike tracksuits.

Degsy

Cut the aid completely.
People will never feel motivated to help themselves if thry become dependent on handouts from others..look at the culture of long-term dole recipients.
In the case of aid to africa,almost none of it ever gets to where its supposed to,its usually apropriated by corrupt regimes,beurocrats and bandits.

Húrin

Degsy wrote: »

Cut the aid completely.
People will never feel motivated to help themselves if thry become dependent on handouts from others..look at the culture of long-term dole recipients.
In the case of aid to africa,almost none of it ever gets to where its supposed to,its usually apropriated by corrupt regimes,beurocrats and bandits.

If you're going to make blanket claims about Irish Aid that are false, as many have done in this thread, please provide sources.

There really is a world of difference between the career dole recipients here and the places in Africa which lack the infrastructure for people to help themselves.

Dob74

Húrin wrote: »

If you're going to make blanket claims about Irish Aid that are false, as many have done in this thread, please provide sources.

There really is a world of difference between the career dole recipients here and the places in Africa which lack the infrastructure for people to help themselves.

The afrians can build it themselves. Alls they need is honest governments not hand outs.

Piste

The money of the Irish People should go and help the Irish People first and foremost. That means that money should go towards our healthcare and education, not another country's. I'm not saying they don't need it more, but we deserve it more. The only aid that should be given is surplus money which we can afford to give, seeing as this country is in so much debt we need to save as much money as we can.

brianthebard

Dob74 wrote: »

The afrians can build it themselves. Alls they need is honest governments not hand outs.

It takes a lot of effort to take something as complex as Africa and make it seem that simplistic. Well done.

Tricity Bendix

Hey, these folks know what they're talking about. Some of them even did economics in school

Seriously, though, when we were rolling in dosh we couldn't fix the problems in our public services, I don't think 600 million is going to turn it all around now.

994

Piste wrote: »

The money of the Irish People should go and help the Irish People first and foremost. That means that money should go towards our healthcare and education, not another country's. I'm not saying they don't need it more, but we deserve it more. The only aid that should be given is surplus money which we can afford to give, seeing as this country is in so much debt we need to save as much money as we can.

I can remember a similar line of argument in the 1840's when some primitives managed to make a mess of their crops and came whining to London to give them food for nothing. Bally rascals!

Steve.Pseudonym

Piste wrote: »

The money of the Irish People should go and help the Irish People first and foremost. That means that money should go towards our healthcare and education, not another country's. I'm not saying they don't need it more, but we deserve it more. The only aid that should be given is surplus money which we can afford to give, seeing as this country is in so much debt we need to save as much money as we can.

This is exactly it.

The Irish state exists to be of benefit to it's citizens, not to donate money to other states or NGOs. In times of plenty if we wish to be generous and donate to them, that's all well and good. Now we can't afford to. That said, simply cutting aid in order to keep funding a bloated civil service would be abhorrent, so if aid were to be cut it could only be done in tandem with severe cuts.

Many posters here point out that our money would save lives elsewhere. Well yes, it would, and I could empty my own bank account to save more. But I'm not going to for the same reason that I endorse cutting aid: if it's a decision between them and me, I'll pick me every time.

Think of that what you will.

Piste

994 wrote: »

I can remember a similar line of argument in the 1840's when some primitives managed to make a mess of their crops and came whining to London to give them food for nothing. Bally rascals!

Yes, the Irish people went to the government that ruled them- remember we weren't a separate country in the 19th century.

eagleye7

Steve.Pseudonym wrote: »

But I'm not going to for the same reason that I endorse cutting aid: if it's a decision between them and me, I'll pick me every time.

Think of that what you will.

But think about it. the small .4% was it? that is sent to the charities can do a lot more good than it will here. that number is a drop in the ridiculously large ocean of debt were in.

i propose this too.

image for a minute if humanity suddenly took your stance. how long would we last now or how long would any country last if we cut off ties with each other.

In 500 years time we might be the ones looking for aid, with no economy or infrastructure. and imho if we act as you say the rest of the world will turn and lololololol at us all day long