CIE/Irish Rail - accountable to nobody!

Judgement Day

And so the waste goes on...Those in the trainspotting community will know about the ongoing scrapping of perfectly serviceable diesel locomotives at Inchicore Works but this snippet just posted on the IRN website really illustrates the point.

One scrapping that appears to have slipped through the net is locomotive 163, which was observed shunting at Inchicore on 13 December 2008, and was then noted in pieces in the scrapping area on 17 December 2008.

Peter Jones

The cynics among you might be tempted to think that this, coupled with the hasty scrapping of wagons, gantries etc is part of a scorched earth policy by CIE/IE to prevent any entry into the rail freight market by private operators but I rather think that is just the usual level of incompetence that we are used to with this moribund concern. I wonder does Noel Dempsey or the FG Transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd know about this scandalous waste of resources? They will tomorrow when I email them.:)

L1011

Is D-Day for open access for freight EU-wide not 2012? If they can ensure theres no rail freight infrastructure to speak of, nobody will want to enter the market - particularly when they can't just get second hand engines and slap CAWS on them due to our gauge and Irish Rail ensuring there ARE no second hand engines.

Captain Chaos

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK. The Mk3 stock is 20 years old, same age as the DART units that just went through a refurb and are good for another 20. Same could be done with Mk3 and use it on the Enterprise which would allow time to sort out or scrap the current shambolic DD stock which no loco in the country can handle without ripping itself apart.

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

DWCommuter

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK. The Mk3 stock is 20 years old, same age as the DART units that just went through a refurb and are good for another 20. Same could be done with Mk3 and use it on the Enterprise which would allow time to sort out or scrap the current shambolic DD stock which no loco in the country can handle without ripping itself apart.

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

They run the railways for themselves. Not for us.

Cookie_Monster

Judgement Day wrote: »

And so the waste goes on...Those in the trainspotting community will know about the ongoing scrapping of perfectly serviceable diesel locomotives at Inchicore Works but this snippet just posted on the IRN website really illustrates the point.

One scrapping that appears to have slipped through the net is locomotive 163, which was observed shunting at Inchicore on 13 December 2008, and was then noted in pieces in the scrapping area on 17 December 2008.

Peter Jones

These locos are currently being withdrawn and have been in the process for a long time. Apparently they are used until there is any kind of major mechanical problem and only then withdrawn and gutted for spare parts for the remaining locos in the fleet.

Currently these nos are left
141, 142, 144, 146, 147, 152, 162, 163, 167, 171, 175 and 177

Cookie_Monster

Also bear in mind that these loco's were built in 1962. A 46/47 year lifespan isin't bad for any kind of train!

pointofnoreturn

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK. The Mk3 stock is 20 years old, same age as the DART units that just went through a refurb and are good for another 20. Same could be done with Mk3 and use it on the Enterprise which would allow time to sort out or scrap the current shambolic DD stock which no loco in the country can handle without ripping itself apart.

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

If i could get my hands on them i'd but regional rail services in the west, along with the Westren Rail corridor, They should be sent off to service Park & Ride depos

Victor

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

If i could get my hands on them i'd but regional rail services in the west, along with the Westren Rail corridor, They should be sent off to service Park & Ride depos

How would this work?

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

How would this work?

Unprofitably.

Cookie_Monster

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK.

You do , of course, realise that Irish gauge is different to that on the continent and UK and if IE were to lease carriages out over there it would require significant alterations (most probably un-economic) to enable stock to run on their gauges.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

IE stock tends to last a lot longer than you'd think. Current 141's from 62, 071's from 76 still going, even 2 of the 121 class (from 1960) lasted until early 08.

Cookie_Monster

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

If i could get my hands on them i'd but regional rail services in the west, along with the Westren Rail corridor, They should be sent off to service Park & Ride depos

Nah, give them to Top Gear to race:pac:
Sure they've raced everything else:D

dowlingm

Look lads, stop kidding yourselves. IE have no mandate to plan for any kind of open access situation. If the government have any interest in creating open access the Department of Transport should be acquiring ownership of the locos and storing them securely, contracting IE to do inspections and maintenance to keep them functional and to maintain a small number of training drivers and a parts inventory. They should also be imposing a public service obligation to maintain track linked to freight flows but again only if the Dept will make a separate appropriation available. That way if an operator can't be found even with available stock and trackage the locos are not a fiscal drain on IE. If such a policy was in place IE would have had a financial incentive not to rip out North Esk, Foynes etc.

The half-century old 141s are redundant because 071s have been displaced by the new 22K trains. IE only have a need for so many permanent way/shunting units and given the state of the freight market with Tara Mines likely to shut that's not going to fill the gap. The issue with the 201s is somewhat different. They aren't cleared for the entire network because of their weight so they can only be used in certain circumstances.

I entirely agree that some of the Mk3 fleet should be used - I would actually argue that the DDs should be yanked and replaced with a refurbished all-Mk3+ new DVT Enterprise fleet (including spare sets and clockfacing frequency increases) and the DD+ new DVTs put on an improved Belfast-Derry service but that's the financial equivalent of crayon drawing - it involves two different governments coming up with cash at a time when there is little enough for rail as it is.

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Look lads, stop kidding yourselves. IE have no mandate to plan for any kind of open access situation.

Why would they though?

pointofnoreturn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Nah, give them to Top Gear to race:pac:
Sure they've raced everything else:D

Atleast They would do something constructive with the spare locos!

corktina

what freight flows do you optimists see as being available to any private operator wishing to enter the irish market?

DB are very bullish at the mo with purchases in UK and Spain but no sign of them having an interest in Irish rail.

Oh and by the by, SHOULD an operator appear, they would probably get GM to build a class 66 derivative rather than use 45 year old clapped out underpowered cast-offs....that the european experiance so far.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Also bear in mind that these loco's were built in 1962. A 46/47 year lifespan isin't bad for any kind of train!

This is sacrilege. These US made 141 class were bullet proof and the power units fitted in them are still being used throughout the world. Mechanical parts are still plentiful and with an engine refit and overhaul they could last for further decades

The "plastic fantastic" DMU's of today would be long worn out after a few decades. CIE should have mothball these locos for push pulls when the 22000's break down.

L1011

Foynes Port claimed repeatedly in the past there was demand for freight that IE refused to carry - however seeing as most other freight yards are now closed/disconnected I'm not sure where freight would go *to*.

dowlingm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html

An Iarnród Éireann spokeswoman said the new diesel multiple-unit trains cannot accommodate parcels.

She said the old locomotive trains had an empty carriage, that accommodated parcels whereas all the new trains only have passenger carriages.

Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

Run_to_da_hills

dowlingm wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html
Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

I also believe that the 22,000 can only accommodate two bicycles.

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I also believe that the 22,000 can only accommodate two bicycles.

And isn't that per 6 car set, ie only one bike per 3 cars set or am I wrong?


Bring back the Orange trains I say, bring them BACK!!!

dowlingm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is sacrilege. These US made 141 class were bullet proof and the power units fitted in them are still being used throughout the world. Mechanical parts are still plentiful and with an engine refit and overhaul they could last for further decades

The "plastic fantastic" DMU's of today would be long worn out after a few decades. CIE should have mothball these locos for push pulls when the 22000's break down.

Are the 141s wired for pushpull? I thought it was just 124/134? Also, unless I'm missing something, isn't making a single 071 (and 201 if replaced on passenger by top/tail powercars) the maintenance engine a better call rather than 2 x 141s?

Nostradamus

I suggest anyone who thinks about a railfrieght revivial and try to get themselves off the train platforms and go down to Dublin, Cork, Waterford ports and see how empty the container ships arriving are.

You cannot move railfreight if there is no "freight" to begin with. 2009 will be the year of economic implosion. What container flows are left are living on the knife-edge as they mostly export/import dependent. People need to get real about just how bad th world's economy is right now. All the unscrapped locos in Ireland and al the potential railfreight oerators are still dependent on the world's economy. That's in bits.

Not that this changes the fact that CIE/Irish Rail are an abomination. They should of been carrying record amounts of freight during the Celtic Tiger years and they didn't.

Nostradamus

MYOB wrote: »

Foynes Port claimed repeatedly in the past there was demand for freight that IE refused to carry - however seeing as most other freight yards are now closed/disconnected I'm not sure where freight would go *to*.

The way trainspotters talk about Foynes you would think it was Singapore. It is little more than a handful of sheds in a field beside a river with a rail line leading to a couple of manky sidings tucked behind a barn. Matter's not anyways as consingments volumns through Irish ports are pretty horrific right now.

Judgement Day

Well I've done my bit. This evening I've emailed Noel Dempsey via his non-user friendly website, Ciaran Cuffe (Green Party Transport spokesman), Fergus O'Dowd (FG Transport Spokesman) and Tommy Broughan (Labour Party Transport Spokesman) to complain about the confirmed withdrawal of CIE/IE's Fastrack service from 31/3/09. Will it make any difference - I doubt it!

In a previous life I ran passenger trains hired from CIE and was about to get back into the charter business when the idea had to be deferred due to the introduction of the wretched Commuter railcars in the South East. My point being that I have seriously examined the possibility of operating a Fastrack type operation when IE finally withdraw the service - I have been looking at this option for about two years since it became obvious that the end was nigh but alas it is not a viable possibility. CIE/IE currently have the infrastructure in place i.e an agent (depotman) at locations nationwide and once they are no longer handling parcels the operation becomes a logistical nightmare. I can't see anyone else taking it on and so the continued downgrading of the railway's usefulness to the people of Ireland looks set to continue. The IE press release carried on RTE news today says it all - a masterpiece of ineptitude full of absolute tosh! :mad:



From rte.ie: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html


Iarnród Éireann to end parcel service
Wednesday, 14 January 2009 16:14
Iarnród Éireann has confirmed that it is to cease operation of its FasTrack service from the 31 March.

FasTrack provides a same-day nationwide express service for parcels to over 60 stations on the rail network, including Northern Ireland.

An Iarnród Éireann spokeswoman said the new diesel multiple-unit trains cannot accommodate parcels.

She said the old locomotive trains had an empty carriage, that accommodated parcels whereas all the new trains only have passenger carriages.

The spokeswoman also said the current economic climate was a reason for withdrawing the service.

The 20 people who are employed in the FasTrack service will either be deployed within Iarnród Éireann or they can avail of a voluntary severance package.

L1011

Nostradamus wrote: »

The way trainspotters talk about Foynes you would think it was Singapore. It is little more than a handful of sheds in a field beside a river with a rail line leading to a couple of manky sidings tucked behind a barn. Matter's not anyways as consingments volumns through Irish ports are pretty horrific right now.

I'm far from a trainspotter (thats my brothers job ); it was the Limerick Port Company or whoever it is that owns Foynes these days making the calls for freight services - not me!

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html
Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

I understand it was Jane Cregan said both things, yes.

Now, every set of 22000s (whether 3- or 6-car) has one cupboard that can take 1-2 bikes. This being found to be less than ideal, was changed such that one luggage rack and two seats were removed and two bike racks installed (the space is still there as luggage space if no bikes are present - there is also luggage space between seats that wasn't as generous on Mark 3s).

So the bike cupboard is available - that is unless they want to reuse it for the snack trolley. But then, that would free up the snack trolley position ... you get where I'm coming from? Space can be made available.

Of course, all these trains have 1-3 vacant driver cabs at any given time (one exception may be where there are "funny" stations, e.g. Killarney station is essentially on a siding and trains need to be reversed in and out).

Of course, none of this matters if the service isn't making money.

PS Please don't let FasTrack customers see how their goods are treated on Mark 4 trains - they tend to be thrown on the floor of the luggage compartment, available to everyone.

Judgement Day

Of course, none of this matters if the service isn't making money.

How could it fail to make money given that most of the staff employed to deal with Fastrack are already employed on other duties too? The overstaffed Fastrack facilities at Dublin, costly space age building at Connolly and the couple of dozen managers (my guess) who probably are involved may have something to do with any losses real or concocted!

If the criteria for withdrawing rail services is down to how much they lose it is the Dublin/Cork and Dublin/Belfast passenger services that should be axed as I seem to remember that the notorious McKinsey Report of 1971 pointed out the heaviest losses occur on the busiest routes......and I assume that this has not changed.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

I'm far from a trainspotter (thats my brothers job ); it was the Limerick Port Company or whoever it is that owns Foynes these days making the calls for freight services - not me!

The only thing I can see down that way would be Foynes Engineering, Alcan Alumina, a babyfood factory and Irish Cement at the end of the Dock Road. A nostalgic tourist run from Limerick to the Flying Boat Museum would go down well.

dowlingm wrote: »

Are the 141s wired for pushpull? I thought it was just 124/134? Also, unless I'm missing something, isn't making a single 071 (and 201 if replaced on passenger by top/tail powercars) the maintenance engine a better call rather than 2 x 141s?

TBH I have never seen 141's used as push pulls but I am sure they could be adapted like the 141's and C class.

Nice photos, always liked to see 141's in pairs.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JibEmYvxvXA

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

TBH I have never seen 141's used as push pulls but I am sure they could be adapted like the 141's and C class.

Eh

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Nice photos, always liked to see 141's in pairs.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JibEmYvxvXA

[Pedant]

One of them is a 181

[/Pedant]

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Are the 141s wired for pushpull? I thought it was just 124/134? Also, unless I'm missing something, isn't making a single 071 (and 201 if replaced on passenger by top/tail powercars) the maintenance engine a better call rather than 2 x 141s?

I'm sure there are some situations where the weight/ axle load of a 201 may rule it out in favour or 2x141's maybe?

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html
Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

I think what she said at the time regarding Portlaoise was that the set rosters were changing regularly (which was true) and that the empty train was not always operating to Portlaoise (which was also true), and hence they had not introduced the train into regular passenger service.

The rosters then subsequently changed which facilitated the introduction of the service. In fairness, the rosters appear to be changing every two-three weeks as more of the new trains come into service. The 6 car sets are now gradually displacing the Mark 3 sets and also some of the 2 x 3 car sets on some services.

dowlingm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm sure there are some situations where the weight/ axle load of a 201 may rule it out in favour or 2x141's maybe?

True about the 201 weight issue Cookie, I said as much myself up the page a bit and well spotted that the photo is actually 141+181 although there's not much difference between them physically. However I'm not sure if there is anywhere that a 071 can't go on the current network? Either way, it's really only a question of retaining the minimum necessary for IE operations, not simply retaining every 141/181 for the benefit of loco watchers. We should be looking to electrification in the long run over the core network - Dublin suburban, Cork-Dublin, Dublin-Belfast which would reduce the number of locos required even further.

monument

It's not the first time, and is unlikely to be the last time the following is said here:

It's a political issue.

In Ireland it was chosen that road was the way. Remember there's a road transport lobby, there no rail transport lobby to balance that.

The problem with rail transport and it being a political issue is you have to take the long term view. There's massive environmental*, and safety benefits to using rail to transport goods. There's also benefits of avoiding congestion or on the other hand avoiding have extra road building and maintenance costs. If you compare rail's costs to road transport's real costs, then rail starts to look a lot more attractive.

Of course, somebody is likely to say the grip hold that unions have on rail killed its chances. That's debatable, but they likely had at least some affect.

* = as in 'environmental' in the broadest meaning of the word, less emissions, less road traffic etc

corktina

well if you want an improved passenger network then there arent too many paths available for freight. Much of the countrys lines are single track and most of the double track bits have an hourly service which means most freight would have to move at night. Im afraid there isnt really any chance of long-haul freight being available as Dublin (where it would most likely start or finish at) is roughly half way up the country, plus there would be little chance of a return load meaning lots of empty running.

Freight doesnt stack up in ireland, forget it.

dowlingm

corktina - I'm sure there are a lot of European countries that can manage a freight service within those parameters. With the improvements in places like Limerick Junction, Portarlington, Kildare Route Project and removal of manual LCs we should surely be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, at least a little bit.

Ham'nd'egger

dowlingm wrote: »

corktina - I'm sure there are a lot of European countries that can manage a freight service within those parameters. With the improvements in places like Limerick Junction, Portarlington, Kildare Route Project and removal of manual LCs we should surely be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, at least a little bit.

Other countries have heavy ore traffic, mass industry and massive international trade to deal with on rail; Ireland hasn't got this. Much of the freight traffic in Ireland is smaller loads and it just isn't practical to move it from truck/van to rail head, onto a train and then back onto a truck for final delivery; more often than not it takes longer that way.

Certainly there is scope for more to be moved by rail but unless the State allows Irish Rail in the absence of private rail carriers to move it with incentive/subsidy, it isn't a tangible reality.

Cool Mo D

The reality of it is that when Irish Rail were carrying freight, they were using their Government money to subsidise it. Money that could have been used to improve the experience for the passenger instead of subsidising businesses. There is no point in carrying freight if it doesn't make a decent profit - heavy freight trains damage tracks more than passenger trains, driving up maintenance costs, and lowering line speeds for express passenger trains. The only way rail freight is good for passengers is if it is making a decent profit, to be ploughed back into the rail network.
Add to that the fact that rail freight is only competitive with road in Ireland for very large, very regular, long distance loads, and is in the stone age when it comes to the logistics side of it, and the load will almost inevitably be loaded back onto a truck at some stage anyway, it is not at all surprising that rail freight in Ireland is dying.

dowlingm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Other countries have heavy ore traffic, mass industry and massive international trade to deal with on rail; Ireland hasn't got this. Much of the freight traffic in Ireland is smaller loads and it just isn't practical to move it from truck/van to rail head, onto a train and then back onto a truck for final delivery; more often than not it takes longer that way.

Certainly there is scope for more to be moved by rail but unless the State allows Irish Rail in the absence of private rail carriers to move it with incentive/subsidy, it isn't a tangible reality.

Ham - was only referring to the technical ability, not the economic one. Your points are well taken. However, it is difficult to create an economic reality if there is a defeatist attitude taken to it technically.

Cool Mo D - true to an extent but that just means that IE should not permitted to lay CWR and rely on it being "better than jointed" to avoid doing aggressive maintenance to it.

Judgement Day

Both Ham'nd'egger and Cool Mo D sound like they are from CIE/IE management with their defeatist attitude and remind me of one very senior CIE manager in the 1980's who I remember saying that if the railways were being built today they wouldn't be any built in Ireland.

If what's left of our rail network is to justify the massive subsidies it receives it must attract as much traffic as possible - not just passengers! What do either of the aforementioned individuals think of the impending abandonment of Fastrack? I would be interested in their opinions.

If the Government is serious about reducing our Carbon Footprint or reducing our dependency on imported oil it must get freight back on the rails. This can be done in many ways and a small start would be to direct that all State agencies and semi-states investigate returning to the railways. In the past the mails were carried by train and An Post now make a virtue of the the fact that they have abandoned the railway. Even the RTE Guide used to be sent by train. The ESB used to have depots at railway stations, Bord na Mona sent their products by rail. These days even CIE/IE internal mail has to be carried by private courier!

However, for these agencies to use CIE/IE again would require a major shake-up from top to bottom of the way the railway is operated. A clear-out of management and a sorting out of industrial relations once and for all - I am thinking here of Ronald Reagan and his handling of the US Air Traffic Controllers in 1981!

Cool Mo D

It's not a "deafeatist" attitude. I just don't see that there's much to gain for Irish Rail by carrying freight. They should focus on getting passenger transport right as their first priority - I can even give them a few pointers: Integrated timetables to make transfers easy; a transparent fare structure; a proper timetable for DART (no 40 minute gaps followed by 3 trains in 20 minutes) commuter and intercity, with regular services no padding, good speeds, and late services, and good customer service from staff who know how to do their jobs, and at least act as if they like to help the customer.
Rail freight is all well and good, but it is not a public service, so it should be run like a business, and make a profit. Otherwise, it should be scrapped.

parsi

The idea of freight is good but where are the flows ?

Even the rest of Europe has dropped everything in favour of ever longer block trains.

For flows you need either the start point or end point to be high volume. Cement traffic was (by other standards) fairly small and still involved trans-shipment at depots. Fert traffic was the same. Shale was similar. Acronynitrile and Ammonia at least had the dubious benefit of being "safer by rail".

We hardly manufacture anything so there's sweet all to put on the trains and I don't see any private freight guys banging down the door (or flying media kites) looking for open access..

The only other way is for freight to be designated as environmentally preferable and thus heavily subsidised - in these days of "paying your way" this is unlikely to happen.

Judgement Day

I beg to differ - while I acknowledge that freight by rail in Europe is down to about 10% of all movements it is on the way back and there are a wide variety of services available - see example from the DHL website:

Rail Freight is unavailable in ireland - however we can assist with Rail Freight within Europe. DHL Freight moves single wagons, wagon groups or complete trains. Intermodal solutions also play a very important role where DHL Freight offers block trains and mixed trains.

DHL RAILEUROPE moves your goods by rail from siding to siding as well as entire train compositions across Europe.

The right rolling stock is available for every type of freight: low-bed wagons for heavy or bulky goods; sliding-wall, high-capacity wagons or open flatcars for large consignments; tank wagons for liquid products; silo wagons for granular products.

Value-added services include truck transfer from terminal to train and in reverse, and transport of chemicals with special safety provisions.


We the almost total eradication of freight by rail in Ireland there is now the opportunity for somebody, other than CIE/IE, to have a go starting from scratch. No old style goods depots or handling methods or, indeed, staff, locos or wagons! EU law deregulation will surely lead to some company with vision coming into Ireland - I hope so.

What about an express parcels service Belfast/Dublin/Cork utilising some of the withdrawn MkIII stock? Given the amount of registered hackers and cowboys on the road there must be enough traffic on this route for a 'profitable' service.

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

Both Ham'nd'egger and Cool Mo D sound like they are from CIE/IE management with their defeatist attitude and remind me of one very senior CIE manager in the 1980's who I remember saying that if the railways were being built today they wouldn't be any built in Ireland.

If what's left of our rail network is to justify the massive subsidies it receives it must attract as much traffic as possible - not just passengers! What do either of the aforementioned individuals think of the impending abandonment of Fastrack? I would be interested in their opinions.

If the Government is serious about reducing our Carbon Footprint or reducing our dependency on imported oil it must get freight back on the rails. This can be done in many ways and a small start would be to direct that all State agencies and semi-states investigate returning to the railways. In the past the mails were carried by train and An Post now make a virtue of the the fact that they have abandoned the railway. Even the RTE Guide used to be sent by train. The ESB used to have depots at railway stations, Bord na Mona sent their products by rail. These days even CIE/IE internal mail has to be carried by private courier!

However, for these agencies to use CIE/IE again would require a major shake-up from top to bottom of the way the railway is operated. A clear-out of management and a sorting out of industrial relations once and for all - I am thinking here of Ronald Reagan and his handling of the US Air Traffic Controllers in 1981!

Believe me, I'd rather see as much freight sent via rail as possible for many reasons but so long as rail freight has to make a profit as a stand alone entity, it hasn't much hope in Ireland.

Freight used to be profitable well into the 1990's but even with the older accounting practices and rules in place, there was a lot of other companies giving their business but some of these lines are non runners for many reasons outside of Irish Rail's doing. Beet, IFI, Bell Ferries, Guinness, Bulmers, Asahi, Molasses, Coal, Gypsum, An Post, newspapers, Kerry Foods, Grain, Asbestos, Bord na Mona have all been lost and won't be back soon. Cement has lessened big time as has shale while Zinc is on a cyclical tightrope for now. Only Timber and Norfolk have being growing in the last 3 years but are liable to be lost given circumstances.

Fast Track is sad to see gone but IMO it's partly a victim of cutting ones cloth to suit; get new railcars that can't deal with the loads and forget about loco haulage and the possibility of freight. The clear intention is for road haulage as much as possible and has been for yonks. Railway has to deal with road transport on all levels and even air travel on some routes and this is the reality; it's sink or swim time. You need to look above the CIE board for explanations as to why this is so and seeing as it is they and not Dick Fearns or John Lynch who make the really big calls, as is the way with most of our public transport messes, even outside of CIE matters. The minute they give the nod, freight will be allowed to work in Ireland but until then....

monument

Any time rail freight is mentioned here there is a defeatist attitude, it could be said for a lot of things mentioned here. It's not surprising as it's a bit of a reflection of the country in general.

I don't know how possible rail freight is in Ireland, but some of the reasons given against don't stack...

And for those of you who don't think these matters are a political issue rather than a clear cut profit or not one... how much of the road network improvements we have seen in the last 20 years would have made it on such a bases?

corktina wrote: »

Much of the countrys lines are single track and most of the double track bits have an hourly service which means most freight would have to move at night.

Would passing loops not work?

corktina wrote: »

plus there would be little chance of a return load meaning lots of empty running.

And 'empty running' isn't a problem for road or shipping?

Did know pretty much all those container ships coming from China to Europe are going back empty? Sorry, if I sound narky here, but you look to be making excuses.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

they were using their Government money to subsidise it. Money that could have been used to improve the experience for the passenger instead of subsidising businesses.

Well at the moment the Government is looking at heavy fines for breaching its emissions targets. And, as I said above:

There's massive environmental, and safety benefits to using rail to transport goods. There's also benefits of avoiding congestion or on the other hand avoiding have extra road building and maintenance costs. If you compare rail's costs to road transport's real costs, then rail starts to look a lot more attractive.

Also it's worth noting that the Minister of Transport -- a bit strangely with out prompting -- admitted on the Last Word that the Government subsidise public transport far less compared to other countries.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

There is no point in carrying freight if it doesn't make a decent profit - heavy freight trains damage tracks more than passenger trains, driving up maintenance costs, and lowering line speeds for express passenger trains.

Did you miss my post? I posted part of it again just above this.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The only way rail freight is good for passengers is if it is making a decent profit, to be ploughed back into the rail network.

What do you mean "good for passengers"? What is that supposed to mean? What about being good for the State and society in general?

corktina

monument wrote: »

"Would passing loops not work? "

passing lops are not the problem, line capacity that they create is.You can only have one trian in each section at a time which severely limits the number of trains you can run.



"And 'empty running' isn't a problem for road or shipping? "

Empty running by road (ship isnt really relevant is it) is minimised by back loads.Thats the difference between profit and loss in logistics.

monument

corktina wrote: »

"Would passing loops not work? "

passing lops are not the problem, line capacity that they create is.You can only have one trian in each section at a time which severely limits the number of trains you can run.

One train in each station is not strictly true, at least on one single track line I use regularly two trains meet at stations -- ie the loop is at the station. Is it not the case cargo trains shouldn't need to take up platform room, as sidings or loops away from station platforms will do for them?

"And 'empty running' isn't a problem for road or shipping? "

Empty running by road (ship isnt really relevant is it) is minimised by back loads.Thats the difference between profit and loss in logistics.

Minimised my how much? Give a guess at percentage and then give a guess at percentage that trains could also do the same, is that possible?

And, yes, I think shipping is relevant. Your statement on empty loads on the way back looks like unmanageable practice to an outsider. But pointing to shipping shows what looks like unmanageable practice to an outsider happens all the time.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

Minimised my how much? Give a guess at percentage and then give a guess at percentage that trains could also do the same, is that possible?
.

40% of everything that come into Tesco Donabate is back hauled by their own truck delivering to shops around the country, as an example

monument wrote: »

And, yes, I think shipping is relevant. Your statement on empty loads on the way back looks like unmanageable practice to an outsider. But pointing to shipping shows what looks like unmanageable practice to an outsider happens all the time.

Ships don't just sail from Japan to here and back though. They go from port to port so containers may only be empty from here to Rotterdam for instance

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

40% of everything that come into Tesco Donabate is back hauled by their own truck delivering to shops around the country, as an example

Could you explain what impact that has got to do with what is being talked about? And more so, how is that answering the question you quoted?

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Ships don't just sail from Japan to here and back though. They go from port to port so containers may only be empty from here to Rotterdam for instance

How does that contradict what I said?

Did know pretty much all those container ships coming from China to Europe are going back empty? -- and I meant to add empty or a very small percentage of the cargo which comes here.

bk

monument wrote: »

Did know pretty much all those container ships coming from China to Europe are going back empty?

FYI Well up to last year, they weren't empty, they were full of waste material to be recycled in China. Only this year has the demand for recyclable waste collapsed, but it will certainly return.

monument

bk wrote: »

FYI Well up to last year, they weren't empty, they were full of waste material to be recycled in China. Only this year has the demand for recyclable waste collapsed, but it will certainly return.

Full? I don't think so.

In any case it has always been a problem for land transport too. But from what I'm getting from some here is they look to think it applies to rail always, but never to road?