CIE/Irish Rail - accountable to nobody!

Judgement Day

And so the waste goes on...Those in the trainspotting community will know about the ongoing scrapping of perfectly serviceable diesel locomotives at Inchicore Works but this snippet just posted on the IRN website really illustrates the point.

One scrapping that appears to have slipped through the net is locomotive 163, which was observed shunting at Inchicore on 13 December 2008, and was then noted in pieces in the scrapping area on 17 December 2008.

Peter Jones

The cynics among you might be tempted to think that this, coupled with the hasty scrapping of wagons, gantries etc is part of a scorched earth policy by CIE/IE to prevent any entry into the rail freight market by private operators but I rather think that is just the usual level of incompetence that we are used to with this moribund concern. I wonder does Noel Dempsey or the FG Transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd know about this scandalous waste of resources? They will tomorrow when I email them.:)

L1011

Is D-Day for open access for freight EU-wide not 2012? If they can ensure theres no rail freight infrastructure to speak of, nobody will want to enter the market - particularly when they can't just get second hand engines and slap CAWS on them due to our gauge and Irish Rail ensuring there ARE no second hand engines.

Captain Chaos

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK. The Mk3 stock is 20 years old, same age as the DART units that just went through a refurb and are good for another 20. Same could be done with Mk3 and use it on the Enterprise which would allow time to sort out or scrap the current shambolic DD stock which no loco in the country can handle without ripping itself apart.

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

DWCommuter

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK. The Mk3 stock is 20 years old, same age as the DART units that just went through a refurb and are good for another 20. Same could be done with Mk3 and use it on the Enterprise which would allow time to sort out or scrap the current shambolic DD stock which no loco in the country can handle without ripping itself apart.

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

They run the railways for themselves. Not for us.

Cookie_Monster

Judgement Day wrote: »

And so the waste goes on...Those in the trainspotting community will know about the ongoing scrapping of perfectly serviceable diesel locomotives at Inchicore Works but this snippet just posted on the IRN website really illustrates the point.

One scrapping that appears to have slipped through the net is locomotive 163, which was observed shunting at Inchicore on 13 December 2008, and was then noted in pieces in the scrapping area on 17 December 2008.

Peter Jones

These locos are currently being withdrawn and have been in the process for a long time. Apparently they are used until there is any kind of major mechanical problem and only then withdrawn and gutted for spare parts for the remaining locos in the fleet.

Currently these nos are left
141, 142, 144, 146, 147, 152, 162, 163, 167, 171, 175 and 177

Cookie_Monster

Also bear in mind that these loco's were built in 1962. A 46/47 year lifespan isin't bad for any kind of train!

pointofnoreturn

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK. The Mk3 stock is 20 years old, same age as the DART units that just went through a refurb and are good for another 20. Same could be done with Mk3 and use it on the Enterprise which would allow time to sort out or scrap the current shambolic DD stock which no loco in the country can handle without ripping itself apart.

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

If i could get my hands on them i'd but regional rail services in the west, along with the Westren Rail corridor, They should be sent off to service Park & Ride depos

Victor

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

If i could get my hands on them i'd but regional rail services in the west, along with the Westren Rail corridor, They should be sent off to service Park & Ride depos

How would this work?

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

How would this work?

Unprofitably.

Cookie_Monster

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Then there is the news that the new 201 class that are only 13 years old and the most powerful locos on Irish Rail have to be put in long term storage. They bought 32 of them. Two of them are in a bad way from alot of Enterprise work which these top end locos cannot handle for long without long term damage. They are now in storage along with two others because there is no duties for them with all the new railcars. Complete waste of money as these could be leased out to a private freight company which IE clearly do not want on the network.

Add to that the rakes of perfectly good Mk3 coaches that are being allowed to rot around the country in Dundalk and Waterford. They are crying out for these in the UK and these coaches could have another 15 good years left in them if IE would look after them properly like they do in the UK.

You do , of course, realise that Irish gauge is different to that on the continent and UK and if IE were to lease carriages out over there it would require significant alterations (most probably un-economic) to enable stock to run on their gauges.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Irish Rail just run all their stock into the ground and don't maintain them as good as they should. It's the monolopy that has IE the way it is, one could argue for competition but then we could end up with the way things are in the UK which was fairly bad in the mid to late 90s.

IE stock tends to last a lot longer than you'd think. Current 141's from 62, 071's from 76 still going, even 2 of the 121 class (from 1960) lasted until early 08.

Cookie_Monster

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

If i could get my hands on them i'd but regional rail services in the west, along with the Westren Rail corridor, They should be sent off to service Park & Ride depos

Nah, give them to Top Gear to race:pac:
Sure they've raced everything else:D

dowlingm

Look lads, stop kidding yourselves. IE have no mandate to plan for any kind of open access situation. If the government have any interest in creating open access the Department of Transport should be acquiring ownership of the locos and storing them securely, contracting IE to do inspections and maintenance to keep them functional and to maintain a small number of training drivers and a parts inventory. They should also be imposing a public service obligation to maintain track linked to freight flows but again only if the Dept will make a separate appropriation available. That way if an operator can't be found even with available stock and trackage the locos are not a fiscal drain on IE. If such a policy was in place IE would have had a financial incentive not to rip out North Esk, Foynes etc.

The half-century old 141s are redundant because 071s have been displaced by the new 22K trains. IE only have a need for so many permanent way/shunting units and given the state of the freight market with Tara Mines likely to shut that's not going to fill the gap. The issue with the 201s is somewhat different. They aren't cleared for the entire network because of their weight so they can only be used in certain circumstances.

I entirely agree that some of the Mk3 fleet should be used - I would actually argue that the DDs should be yanked and replaced with a refurbished all-Mk3+ new DVT Enterprise fleet (including spare sets and clockfacing frequency increases) and the DD+ new DVTs put on an improved Belfast-Derry service but that's the financial equivalent of crayon drawing - it involves two different governments coming up with cash at a time when there is little enough for rail as it is.

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Look lads, stop kidding yourselves. IE have no mandate to plan for any kind of open access situation.

Why would they though?

pointofnoreturn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Nah, give them to Top Gear to race:pac:
Sure they've raced everything else:D

Atleast They would do something constructive with the spare locos!

corktina

what freight flows do you optimists see as being available to any private operator wishing to enter the irish market?

DB are very bullish at the mo with purchases in UK and Spain but no sign of them having an interest in Irish rail.

Oh and by the by, SHOULD an operator appear, they would probably get GM to build a class 66 derivative rather than use 45 year old clapped out underpowered cast-offs....that the european experiance so far.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Also bear in mind that these loco's were built in 1962. A 46/47 year lifespan isin't bad for any kind of train!

This is sacrilege. These US made 141 class were bullet proof and the power units fitted in them are still being used throughout the world. Mechanical parts are still plentiful and with an engine refit and overhaul they could last for further decades

The "plastic fantastic" DMU's of today would be long worn out after a few decades. CIE should have mothball these locos for push pulls when the 22000's break down.

L1011

Foynes Port claimed repeatedly in the past there was demand for freight that IE refused to carry - however seeing as most other freight yards are now closed/disconnected I'm not sure where freight would go *to*.

dowlingm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html

An Iarnród Éireann spokeswoman said the new diesel multiple-unit trains cannot accommodate parcels.

She said the old locomotive trains had an empty carriage, that accommodated parcels whereas all the new trains only have passenger carriages.

Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

Run_to_da_hills

dowlingm wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html
Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

I also believe that the 22,000 can only accommodate two bicycles.

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I also believe that the 22,000 can only accommodate two bicycles.

And isn't that per 6 car set, ie only one bike per 3 cars set or am I wrong?


Bring back the Orange trains I say, bring them BACK!!!

dowlingm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is sacrilege. These US made 141 class were bullet proof and the power units fitted in them are still being used throughout the world. Mechanical parts are still plentiful and with an engine refit and overhaul they could last for further decades

The "plastic fantastic" DMU's of today would be long worn out after a few decades. CIE should have mothball these locos for push pulls when the 22000's break down.

Are the 141s wired for pushpull? I thought it was just 124/134? Also, unless I'm missing something, isn't making a single 071 (and 201 if replaced on passenger by top/tail powercars) the maintenance engine a better call rather than 2 x 141s?

Nostradamus

I suggest anyone who thinks about a railfrieght revivial and try to get themselves off the train platforms and go down to Dublin, Cork, Waterford ports and see how empty the container ships arriving are.

You cannot move railfreight if there is no "freight" to begin with. 2009 will be the year of economic implosion. What container flows are left are living on the knife-edge as they mostly export/import dependent. People need to get real about just how bad th world's economy is right now. All the unscrapped locos in Ireland and al the potential railfreight oerators are still dependent on the world's economy. That's in bits.

Not that this changes the fact that CIE/Irish Rail are an abomination. They should of been carrying record amounts of freight during the Celtic Tiger years and they didn't.

Nostradamus

MYOB wrote: »

Foynes Port claimed repeatedly in the past there was demand for freight that IE refused to carry - however seeing as most other freight yards are now closed/disconnected I'm not sure where freight would go *to*.

The way trainspotters talk about Foynes you would think it was Singapore. It is little more than a handful of sheds in a field beside a river with a rail line leading to a couple of manky sidings tucked behind a barn. Matter's not anyways as consingments volumns through Irish ports are pretty horrific right now.

Judgement Day

Well I've done my bit. This evening I've emailed Noel Dempsey via his non-user friendly website, Ciaran Cuffe (Green Party Transport spokesman), Fergus O'Dowd (FG Transport Spokesman) and Tommy Broughan (Labour Party Transport Spokesman) to complain about the confirmed withdrawal of CIE/IE's Fastrack service from 31/3/09. Will it make any difference - I doubt it!

In a previous life I ran passenger trains hired from CIE and was about to get back into the charter business when the idea had to be deferred due to the introduction of the wretched Commuter railcars in the South East. My point being that I have seriously examined the possibility of operating a Fastrack type operation when IE finally withdraw the service - I have been looking at this option for about two years since it became obvious that the end was nigh but alas it is not a viable possibility. CIE/IE currently have the infrastructure in place i.e an agent (depotman) at locations nationwide and once they are no longer handling parcels the operation becomes a logistical nightmare. I can't see anyone else taking it on and so the continued downgrading of the railway's usefulness to the people of Ireland looks set to continue. The IE press release carried on RTE news today says it all - a masterpiece of ineptitude full of absolute tosh! :mad:



From rte.ie: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html


Iarnród Éireann to end parcel service
Wednesday, 14 January 2009 16:14
Iarnród Éireann has confirmed that it is to cease operation of its FasTrack service from the 31 March.

FasTrack provides a same-day nationwide express service for parcels to over 60 stations on the rail network, including Northern Ireland.

An Iarnród Éireann spokeswoman said the new diesel multiple-unit trains cannot accommodate parcels.

She said the old locomotive trains had an empty carriage, that accommodated parcels whereas all the new trains only have passenger carriages.

The spokeswoman also said the current economic climate was a reason for withdrawing the service.

The 20 people who are employed in the FasTrack service will either be deployed within Iarnród Éireann or they can avail of a voluntary severance package.

L1011

Nostradamus wrote: »

The way trainspotters talk about Foynes you would think it was Singapore. It is little more than a handful of sheds in a field beside a river with a rail line leading to a couple of manky sidings tucked behind a barn. Matter's not anyways as consingments volumns through Irish ports are pretty horrific right now.

I'm far from a trainspotter (thats my brothers job ); it was the Limerick Port Company or whoever it is that owns Foynes these days making the calls for freight services - not me!

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0114/rail.html
Is this a li... er... an economy with the truth? My understanding was that there is a parcels compartment on 22Ks. Could this be the same spokeswoman who said on radio there was no way P11/RUI's suggestion of a late Portlaoise could be run just before it was announced?

I understand it was Jane Cregan said both things, yes.

Now, every set of 22000s (whether 3- or 6-car) has one cupboard that can take 1-2 bikes. This being found to be less than ideal, was changed such that one luggage rack and two seats were removed and two bike racks installed (the space is still there as luggage space if no bikes are present - there is also luggage space between seats that wasn't as generous on Mark 3s).

So the bike cupboard is available - that is unless they want to reuse it for the snack trolley. But then, that would free up the snack trolley position ... you get where I'm coming from? Space can be made available.

Of course, all these trains have 1-3 vacant driver cabs at any given time (one exception may be where there are "funny" stations, e.g. Killarney station is essentially on a siding and trains need to be reversed in and out).

Of course, none of this matters if the service isn't making money.

PS Please don't let FasTrack customers see how their goods are treated on Mark 4 trains - they tend to be thrown on the floor of the luggage compartment, available to everyone.

Judgement Day

Of course, none of this matters if the service isn't making money.

How could it fail to make money given that most of the staff employed to deal with Fastrack are already employed on other duties too? The overstaffed Fastrack facilities at Dublin, costly space age building at Connolly and the couple of dozen managers (my guess) who probably are involved may have something to do with any losses real or concocted!

If the criteria for withdrawing rail services is down to how much they lose it is the Dublin/Cork and Dublin/Belfast passenger services that should be axed as I seem to remember that the notorious McKinsey Report of 1971 pointed out the heaviest losses occur on the busiest routes......and I assume that this has not changed.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

I'm far from a trainspotter (thats my brothers job ); it was the Limerick Port Company or whoever it is that owns Foynes these days making the calls for freight services - not me!

The only thing I can see down that way would be Foynes Engineering, Alcan Alumina, a babyfood factory and Irish Cement at the end of the Dock Road. A nostalgic tourist run from Limerick to the Flying Boat Museum would go down well.

dowlingm wrote: »

Are the 141s wired for pushpull? I thought it was just 124/134? Also, unless I'm missing something, isn't making a single 071 (and 201 if replaced on passenger by top/tail powercars) the maintenance engine a better call rather than 2 x 141s?

TBH I have never seen 141's used as push pulls but I am sure they could be adapted like the 141's and C class.

Nice photos, always liked to see 141's in pairs.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JibEmYvxvXA

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

TBH I have never seen 141's used as push pulls but I am sure they could be adapted like the 141's and C class.

Eh

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Nice photos, always liked to see 141's in pairs.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JibEmYvxvXA

[Pedant]

One of them is a 181

[/Pedant]

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Are the 141s wired for pushpull? I thought it was just 124/134? Also, unless I'm missing something, isn't making a single 071 (and 201 if replaced on passenger by top/tail powercars) the maintenance engine a better call rather than 2 x 141s?

I'm sure there are some situations where the weight/ axle load of a 201 may rule it out in favour or 2x141's maybe?