Dublin Bus - Management are monkeys and need to go

JustAddWater

Having just read this:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0113/transport.html

Bus services will be reduced: Dempsey

Tuesday, 13 January 2009 17:00
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has said public transport services will be reduced this year.




It makes me sick. Especially since the following was a COMPLETE waste of money.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0620/bus.html


Now we've to suffer because arseholes in Dublin bus management can't do things right. Fare go up every year, service goes down and yet we're encouraged to use public transport. That will NEVER happen until confidence is restored within Dublin bus. I was late for college, late for work and missed interviews all because Dublin bus failed to deliver.


<rant>


I had to wait 2 hours one time for a bus to town and missed an interview. Leaving my house 2hrs 15 mins before an interview is not unreasonable, however it wasn't enough and I was late. I hold Dublin bus solely responsible for that one. And how come I can get 2 buses to my house yet the bus stop is 10 mins walk apart in town? (50 and 65b) I mean I have to make a choice to get a bus home. You'd think that they'd put the bus stops together meaning if I wait at that stop I can get either bus. Nope, i've gotta go to a bus stop and wait. meaning while i'm waiting there the other bus is at the other stop and I could have gotten that one home instead.


</rant>


Anyway Dublin bus is managed by people that just dont see common sense and I hate them. Give me any other alternative and i'll take it

Ham'nd'egger

Dublin Bus have to cut services as many of the routes don't make money and they as a company need to cut costs as the State won't cover costs, simple as. I'd disagree with you in saying that they are hopeless; on the contrary they do an excellent job given the circumstance they operate under.

Many routes run empty or close to empty outside of rush hours and Dublin Bus can't chop and change routes to match passenger patterns as easily as would be feasible. Fuel prices have skyrocketed in the last few years (This year they and Irish Rail and other bus companies no longer get cheaper fuel that used to apply to them even as prices finally lower on the markets), wages go up as staff numbers increase to run new buses, the new buses cost money yet the State subvention issued to them has not increased. Many of the new buses they do own and operate were paid for out of their own resources. Fares have to go up unless State Aid increases or passenger numbers somehow swell drastically.

As for your "rant", sure every bus route should run to and from your house or place of work, waiting patiently for you to emerge on the off chance. That would make sense for us all and your €1.90 fare would get the company into profit :rolleyes:

JustAddWater wrote: »

Having just read this:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0113/transport.html

Bus services will be reduced: Dempsey

Tuesday, 13 January 2009 17:00
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has said public transport services will be reduced this year.




It makes me sick. Especially since the following was a COMPLETE waste of money.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0620/bus.html


Now we've to suffer because arseholes in Dublin bus management can't do things right. Fare go up every year, service goes down and yet we're encouraged to use public transport. That will NEVER happen until confidence is restored within Dublin bus. I was late for college, late for work and missed interviews all because Dublin bus failed to deliver.


<rant>


I had to wait 2 hours one time for a bus to town and missed an interview. Leaving my house 2hrs 15 mins before an interview is not unreasonable, however it wasn't enough and I was late. I hold Dublin bus solely responsible for that one. And how come I can get 2 buses to my house yet the bus stop is 10 mins walk apart in town? (50 and 65b) I mean I have to make a choice to get a bus home. You'd think that they'd put the bus stops together meaning if I wait at that stop I can get either bus. Nope, i've gotta go to a bus stop and wait. meaning while i'm waiting there the other bus is at the other stop and I could have gotten that one home instead.


</rant>


Anyway Dublin bus is managed by people that just dont see common sense and I hate them. Give me any other alternative and i'll take it

JustAddWater

Hamndegger wrote: »

As for your "rant", sure every bus route should run to and from your house or place of work, waiting patiently for you to emerge on the off chance. That would make sense for us all and your €1.90 fare would get the company into profit :rolleyes:

My point was the bus was advertised and never came, 2 buses infact that day never showed at the time on the timetable. Of course I dont expect a bus immediately, thats why I looked up the timetable

Ham'nd'egger

JustAddWater wrote: »

My point was the bus was advertised and never came, 2 buses infact that day never showed at the time on the timetable. Of course I dont expect a bus immediately, thats why I looked up the timetable

Which is why you also complained about having to "choose" between buses and "Stops" in town. Notice I never said anything about a bus not showing; it goes without saying that isn't on but there may be due reason for it happening.

Regardless, about the rest of your point/rant...

:rolleyes:

Calina

While not perfect, Dublin Bus unfortunately has to operate within the framework controlled by the Department of Transport, eg, they can't just decide to feed a new route even if they know there's demand. They have to jump through hoops to do so. Ask anyone in Swords about the fiasco involving route through the tunnel. The issue about services being cut looks to me as though it comes from a Minister.

In general, if you have an issue with how Dublin Bus can operate within the current framework, take it to relevant government authorities. If you've a problem with buses not turning up, take it to Dublin Bus. Above all, learn how things operate in this country and complain effectively about them rather than just ranting. Just ranting changes nothing and when those rants are based on an ignorance of how things actually are done, then my sympathy drops.

There are massive issues with public transport in Dublin. They are not all the fault of Dublin Bus who have to deal with highly congested streets, muppets who park in the few buslanes they have, passengers who mug their drivers, and a policy framework which is schizophrenic at best. Very often, lately, buses not showing up is linked to them being stuck in traffic somewhere else. It happens; it wouldn't happen if perhaps there was a more integrated plan for public transport in Dublin that didn't involved an ideological battleground or internecine war between different service suppliers.

Zoney

It is most appropriate to blame the government, even in cases where it isn't a direct policy by the Minister like this. In other cases, even if it is directly the fault of say Dublin Bus or some management in it, it is the government's job to sort Dublin Bus out if they are ineffective.

But really it's mostly a mess from trying to run it on a shoestring budget.

During boom times the government couldn't manage to get us adequate services (nevermind good ones) and now in a downturn we yet again can't afford anything.

Run_to_da_hills

Maybe the purchase a smaller fleet such as 18 seater Mercedes sprinters rather than do away with the more uneconomical routes altogether. They did this back in the 90ies with the IMP service. I believe they have up to 100 new double Decker busses on order, is it too late for them to cancel these?

paulm17781

JustAddWater wrote: »

My point was the bus was advertised and never came, 2 buses infact that day never showed at the time on the timetable. Of course I dont expect a bus immediately, thats why I looked up the timetable

You're wasting your time pointing out facts here. There are many here who will defend DB no matter what. Despite oil being down at 36 euro today, similar to 2005 (147 in July 2008) they will tell you fuel prices have rocketed in recent years.

The government are over all to blame but DB and all the CIE companies need a radical overhaul.

ardmacha

I believe they have up to 100 new double Decker busses on order, is it too late for them to cancel these?

Judging by some of the threads on here a few double deckers would be welcome in Cork and perhaps Limerick and Galway. The single deckers freed up by such a move could improve services or be used for school buses or the like.

Heart

I believe they have up to 100 new double Decker busses on order, is it too late for them to cancel these?

There are no more buses on order. There are, however, on going deliveries of 100 buses ordered in 2007, for delivery 08/09 and these will probably be the last new buses purchased for a while.

H

Ham'nd'egger

ardmacha wrote: »

Judging by some of the threads on here a few double deckers would be welcome in Cork and perhaps Limerick and Galway. The single deckers freed up by such a move could improve services or be used for school buses or the like.

They are buses for Dublin and they have already been paid for. In days not too long ago, buses that were often life expired or close to same would be transferred to the regional cities. There has been expansions in Waterford, Galway and Cork in recent years though possibly not enough if posts here are anything to go by.

The Mercedes buses that were on the Imps were discontinued as many of the routes they were placed on grew drastically thus needing extra capacity; likewise on the single deck "City Swift" routes, numbers meant that double deck buses were needed. Another problem with the Imps was that they were not strong enough for the heavy use that city buses receive and spent long hours off the road.

paulm17781

Just to add http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0113/petrol.html - Fuel prices at lowest in 4 years.

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote: »

You're wasting your time pointing out facts here. There are many here who will defend DB no matter what. Despite oil being down at 36 euro today, similar to 2005 (147 in July 2008) they will tell you fuel prices have rocketed in recent years.

Transport companies no longer can avail of lower excise fuel rates anymore; this has effectively wiped out much of the recent oil price drops while still adding onto the previously high rates yet more. This is across the board for the record.

Calina

paulm17781 wrote: »

You're wasting your time pointing out facts here. There are many here who will defend DB no matter what. Despite oil being down at 36 euro today, similar to 2005 (147 in July 2008) they will tell you fuel prices have rocketed in recent years.

The government are over all to blame but DB and all the CIE companies need a radical overhaul.

While that is true, it's not just the way things are. The way public transport is perceived in this country requires a radical overhaul. In short, I don't defend DB no matter what - their service is completely unworkable for me - but I do think that complaints should be targetted correctly. Dublin Bus are not directly responsible for failings in government transport planning.

Additionally, if oil prices are at their lowest for four years, I'm idly wondering why the price at the pump is back on an upward trajectory. But that's by way of an aside.

Run_to_da_hills

Heart wrote: »

There are no more buses on order. There are, however, on going deliveries of 100 buses ordered in 2007, for delivery 08/09 and these will probably be the last new buses purchased for a while.

H

A good while, we can count ourselves lucky that we have a relatively fresh fleet. One can remember the fleet back in the 70ies & early 80ies.

HonalD

I believe that DB dont break even on any route that is a scheduled route. They only make a surplus on commerical routes i.e. Airport Links.

It is necessary to have PUBLIC transport but I agree that the management of DB perhaps has not proven that they can "sweat the assets" enough. Even in the good times this was the case and now.................god help us.........................:eek:

Carawaystick

Hamndegger wrote: »

As for your "rant", sure every bus route should run to and from your house or place of work, waiting patiently for you to emerge on the off chance. That would make sense for us all and your €1.90 fare would get the company into profit :rolleyes:

i think the OP's point was that the stops in the city centre are apart, while the two routes serve a stop outside his house in the suburbs. If the stops in the suburbs were a distance apart at least the op could get either of the routes instead of waiting aimlessly in the city centre.

Diesel is now 89cents a litre. It peaked at over 145 cents a litre. there is 38 cents a litre excise duty. I don't know if cie pay vat on their fuel or not. but the drop in forecourt prices is more than the excise level; making the excise duty argument a red herring.

TheVan

Well how about suggestions as to how Dublin Bus could either

a) Improve their service
b) Add to the service (preferably in a cost-effective way!) encouraging more people to use Dublin Bus, therefore remedying some of the less busy routes

My suggestions are:

1. A prediction system for when buses are going to arrive, similar to that employed in London and many other cities. I'm not an expert but I imagine this could be done relatively cheaply via RFID tags etc. This would allow a passenger to predict when their bus would arrive either when they were at the stop, on the internet or via a text service
2. Restructuring of the pricing of journeys. I'm not an accountant so I'll let others here get on with specifics, but I imagine a flat fare, or two-grade fare might work better
3. Less doubling-up of bus routes, especially when the buses run one behind the other. For example, the 90, 91 and 92 go similar routes from Heuston into town but often two arrive at once, leaving one empty when leaving Heuston
4. Some seasonal routes such as the 10. There is no need for a bus into Belfield during the summer months - students can walk from the 46A stop!

Just my suggestions - any more? (mods might want this to be a separate thread, I'm not sure!)

L1011

suggestion 1 has been underway for the past eternity, pasts of the Lucan QBC are fitting with those screens... I think more gear has been tendered for recently?

TheVan

MYOB wrote: »

suggestion 1 has been underway for the past eternity, pasts of the Lucan QBC are fitting with those screens... I think more gear has been tendered for recently?

That's good news, although the eternity bit is kind of typical - this kind of thing should be fast-tracked imho.

Buffman

I'd say the midweek nightlinks will be one of the first for the chop. Last time I was on one it was pretty empty.

antoinolachtnai

Some Dublin Bus services do certainly generate a surplus. They would need to to compensate for routes like the 90, which alone lost 1.5m in 2006 (around 2 percent of the subsidy for just one route). It would be interesting to know whether the Airport service makes a surplus. I would not lay any bets that it does.

Looking more broadly, the situation is that:

- in 2006, Dublin Bus promised that there would be sustained growth in public transport usage. There hasn't been, and this is because DB failed to deliver on modal shift. It got the advertising and communications budget, and it got the buses it said it needed, but it couldn't come up with the goods and now we are looking at parking up 30 million euros worth of taxpayers' buses.

- The madness goes on. Three days before the government had to bail out the country's biggest banks and long after it had become clear that Dublin Bus passenger numbers had hit serious decline, Dublin Bus issued tender documents for the purchase 350 new buses. This foolish-looking move was made without contacting the Department of Transport. This includes large-capacity buses which are completely unsuitable for a contracting transport market.

Dublin Bus costs are way out of control. It is costing the company around 300,000 euros a year to run a single bus on an all-day schedule. This is an unbelievably high cost. (It is not surprising when you consider that there is a mechanic for every three buses.)

The result of high costs is that there are fewer buses running than there should be for the money. Between subsidy and fares, 275million is spent on running the Dublin Bus services. It should be possible to run a far better service for that money.

There are operational issues and they just haven't been addressed, despite the big spending. This is everything from problems with buses not showing up to obvious, soluble issues with timetables which are impossible for a non-local to decipher. There are some good routes with fantastic drivers and decent management, which goes largely unrecognised and unrewarded, but there is quite a bit of mediocre and bad operational management. Passengers continue to be assumed to have a working knowledge of the placenames of the city in the Irish language. Wheelchair users are assumed to be able to view the map for of accessible routes located in the uppermost part of the displays on the bus shelters.

craiginireland

Walk or get to the bus stop on time

JustAddWater wrote: »

Having just read this:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0113/transport.html

Bus services will be reduced: Dempsey

Tuesday, 13 January 2009 17:00
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has said public transport services will be reduced this year.




It makes me sick. Especially since the following was a COMPLETE waste of money.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0620/bus.html


Now we've to suffer because arseholes in Dublin bus management can't do things right. Fare go up every year, service goes down and yet we're encouraged to use public transport. That will NEVER happen until confidence is restored within Dublin bus. I was late for college, late for work and missed interviews all because Dublin bus failed to deliver.


<rant>


I had to wait 2 hours one time for a bus to town and missed an interview. Leaving my house 2hrs 15 mins before an interview is not unreasonable, however it wasn't enough and I was late. I hold Dublin bus solely responsible for that one. And how come I can get 2 buses to my house yet the bus stop is 10 mins walk apart in town? (50 and 65b) I mean I have to make a choice to get a bus home. You'd think that they'd put the bus stops together meaning if I wait at that stop I can get either bus. Nope, i've gotta go to a bus stop and wait. meaning while i'm waiting there the other bus is at the other stop and I could have gotten that one home instead.


</rant>


Anyway Dublin bus is managed by people that just dont see common sense and I hate them. Give me any other alternative and i'll take it

craiginireland

Whats the point of having two different buses going to the same stops?
Thats duplication. Great use of money.

Carawaystick wrote: »

i think the OP's point was that the stops in the city centre are apart, while the two routes serve a stop outside his house in the suburbs. If the stops in the suburbs were a distance apart at least the op could get either of the routes instead of waiting aimlessly in the city centre.

Diesel is now 89cents a litre. It peaked at over 145 cents a litre. there is 38 cents a litre excise duty. I don't know if cie pay vat on their fuel or not. but the drop in forecourt prices is more than the excise level; making the excise duty argument a red herring.

AlekSmart

(It is not surprising when you consider that there is a mechanic for every three buses.)

I`m not so sure that this is the case.
With a fleet of approx 1,200 vehicles that would require 400 Mechanics.

I`m afraid that may well be an overstatement possibly based upon errenous figures.
It may well refer to that TOTAL Dublin Bus Maintainance operation (Cleaners,Shunters) but it`s highly unlikely to be specifically Mechanics
Dublin Bus has a very lean maintainance operation which features contract cleaning staff and a high reliance factor on Manufacturers extended warranty schemes.
Volvo Bus provide much of this on a call-out basis.

It is well recognized within the greater UK/EU Bus industry that the Chief Engineer of Dublin Bus has negotiated several such contracts with Volvo Bus and other manufacturers on terms equalling or exceeding many of those secured by the far larger multi-national groups (occasionally to the great chagrin of these same operators).

Coming from a period when Dublins bus fleet was largely kept limping around the City in a deplorable condition,it is now recognized that Ex Dublin Bus vehicles are in strong demand throughout the UK due to their excellent state of repair....which is handy as if Mr Dempsey`s words are to be believed we will be seeing a lot more of them heading back to the mainland.

Reading the UK trade-press lately it`s notable that several of the major players over there are gearing up to expand their services in response to INCREASED demand as people lay-up their private cars due to unemployment etc.

Not for the first time is Èire showing that it can buck the trend !!

gurramok

Whats the average/mean wage for a Dublin Bus driver?

Surely wage costs are a factor as well for their annual losses?

Davidth88

will be seeing a lot more of them heading back to the mainland.

Which mainland would that be

My two pennies worth. I find the setup where three internal companies all CIE owned ( therefore owned by US ) are competing against eachother and even after spending a stupid amount of money and time can't organise a smart ticketing scheme is indicative of job protection/jobsworth stupidity.

I spend quite a lot of time in Sardinia , they have bus time indicators on all the stops within the urban areas , if they can do it .......

Not withstanding the rather ' ranty ' style of the OP , he raises an interesting debate !

In my opinion a public bus service will never ' make money' , if the Greens had any real influance and stopped going up FF's backside to stay in power then they should be making sure that public transport is sorted out.

markpb

You're ideas are great and would make a big difference but, like a lot of problems, they can only be fixed by the government who, frankly, don't understand and don't give a crap.

TheVan wrote: »

A prediction system for when buses are going to arrive, similar to that employed in London and many other cities. I'm not an expert but I imagine this could be done relatively cheaply via RFID tags etc. This would allow a passenger to predict when their bus would arrive either when they were at the stop, on the internet or via a text service.

Those systems are incredibly expensive. Every bus has to be fitted with a GPS unit and GPRS transmitter. The depots need to be fitted with the hardware and software to track all the buses and estimate their arrival times at the bus stops. All the bus stops have to be fitted with GPRS receivers and displays. They started a programme to do all this and... the government pulled it's funding. It's back on track now but at a super slow pace (i.e. could be 2011 before you'll see the displays).

TheVan wrote: »

Restructuring of the pricing of journeys. I'm not an accountant so I'll let others here get on with specifics, but I imagine a flat fare, or two-grade fare might work better

Fares and stages are controlled by the government who won't let them change it to something more customer friendly.

TheVan wrote: »

Some seasonal routes such as the 10. There is no need for a bus into Belfield during the summer months - students can walk from the 46A stop!

I like this one

Zoney

markpb wrote: »

Those systems are incredibly expensive. Every bus has to be fitted with a GPS unit and GPRS transmitter. The depots need to be fitted with the hardware and software to track all the buses and estimate their arrival times at the bus stops. All the bus stops have to be fitted with GPRS receivers and displays. They started a programme to do all this and... the government pulled it's funding. It's back on track now but at a super slow pace (i.e. could be 2011 before you'll see the displays).

Bus Éireann are allegedly going to finally introduce such a system this year, albeit without the bus stop indicators (instead you use SMS or the web). The story was first issued in 2006, with alleged introduction in 2007. It would seem that they have indeed been tagging all their buses mind you. The story appeared again recently, focussing more on the front-end, so there's some hope it'll appear. I think they may have been intending bus stop indicators initially, and it has since been cut down.

I'll be quite happy to find out via web though - if the site is mobile-friendly and you switch off images, it is quite cheap and quick to check such things using GPRS nevermind 3G. I frequently do so for weather, news, fact-check, etc.

Link to story on Irish Examiner

antoinolachtnai

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m not so sure that this is the case.
With a fleet of approx 1,200 vehicles that would require 400 Mechanics.

according to Joe Meagher there are approximately 36 maintenance staff for every 100 buses. This is an awful lot, whatever way you count it. If most of the maintenance and cleaning is outsourced as you say it is, then it's even worse.

It is well recognized within the greater UK/EU Bus industry that the Chief Engineer of Dublin Bus has negotiated several such contracts with Volvo Bus and other manufacturers on terms equalling or exceeding many of those secured by the far larger multi-national groups (occasionally to the great chagrin of these same operators).

Who is this recognised by? What terms did he get them on?

Coming from a period when Dublins bus fleet was largely kept limping around the City in a deplorable condition,it is now recognized that Ex Dublin Bus vehicles are in strong demand throughout the UK due to their excellent state of repair....which is handy as if Mr Dempsey`s words are to be believed we will be seeing a lot more of them heading back to the mainland.

If the buses are so well maintained, so serviceable, in such great shape and in such demand second hand, then why do Dublin Bus sell them?

Reading the UK trade-press lately it`s notable that several of the major players over there are gearing up to expand their services in response to INCREASED demand as people lay-up their private cars due to unemployment etc.

Not for the first time is Èire showing that it can buck the trend !!

But they have increased demand over there. We do not. Demand for DB services has been falling, not increasing.

VERYinterested

I'm lucky where I live in Ballinteer, with a choice of using the 14, 14A, 48A or 16 to get to or from town. Dublin Bus have very considerately put stops together on O'Connell St and D'Olier Street where you can catch any of these buses. The OP's point about stops close to one another is valid imo, it makes sense.

On improvements or suggestions, how about lower fares outside of peak hours? Maybe more people will use buses more if they were cheaper at a certain time? Also I think it's a bit of a rip off if you are only going 4 or 5 stops, the fare is not far off that if you were going all the way to town. Reduced fares, may equal more passengers and fill up empty buses?

I have no real gripe against Dublin Bus, as I said, I am a bit spoilt for choice where I live. The majority of Drivers are nice lads and do a difficult job well, but there is something very wrong somewhere if the company is losing so much money. As usual the wrong people will get hurt, whether it be Joe Public or some unfortunate people that work for Dublin Bus.

rx8

If Dublin Bus thinks that they are going to make huge cuts from the bottom up then they had better wake up and smell the freshly-brewed board-room coffee.Drivers know that cuts are coming....but we are the one's that will have to listen to the commuter complaining when their service is axed.

I agree that cuts to frontline services are inevitable,but for these to be accepted then there will also have to be drastic cuts to their own cosy cartell.There are way too many Inspectors,Chief-Inspectors,Administrators,and other hangers-on that spend all day either trying to look busy,or just hiding.
Everything needs to be on the table for discussion and the Minister also needs to be involved in the adoption of a new Memorandum of Understanding as the current one clearly doesn't allow for any flexibility on the company's behalf,particularly when it comes to the adoption of Summer and Christmas schedules.
I for one don't want to be on the gate protesting over unfair cuts and the way to avoid this will be if the company is seen to do the right thing.:rolleyes:

EdgarAllenPoo

rx8 wrote: »

There are way too many Inspectors,Chief-Inspectors,Administrators,and other hangers-on that spend all day either trying to look busy,or just hiding.
QUOTE]


There's no way they'll be let go, maybe one or two that are close to retirement but it'll cost CIE way more to get rid of some work dodging admin worker or inspector than it will to get rid of the guys who haven't been made permanent yet.

Lay-offs plus a reduction in the number of buses also means it'll take even longer to get marked in if you're spare.

dub_commuter

Dublin bus really infuriate me, I'm far from their biggest fan overall, but they do some things and some areas wonderfully well, whilst others are a complete disaster. I have a fantastic bus service where I am based to the city centre buses always on time, helpful inspectors, pleasant and cheerful drivers, well maintained vehicles and generally a first class service.

However having lived in several parts of Dublin since the turn of the Millennium, I know that it's not like this in a lot of places, and where I used to live had a high frequency commuter route which was always late, always in bad condition, rude drivers, horrible inspectors and buses frequently did not turn up. Complete disaster. Different garage mind, but it shows how the two contrast. Unfortunately whilst I, am still very lucky and have the better side right now, in other parts of the city it's dreadful.

Look at the operators in the UK, holding meet the manager sessions, regular news updates, newsletters, ticketing offers, prepaid ticketing, pay as you go ticketing, special services, realtime information, GPS, Wifi, among many others. If you take a look at Dublin Bus .ie there is very little happening in updates wise or any hint of communication with customers to try and get the issues sorted or find out how to get extra customers. They've made very little effort to recruit or explain things to customers, just through the press.

You may argue they want more routes, but there are other ways to get more people on board, some of the above being ones I frequently see. I don't really like advertising on the side of buses saying where a bus services and the frequency and fare offers of a particular route, but at least these operators in the UK are trying. The marketing arm of DB is almost non existent. Apart from the Airport, and the posters on the buses themselves. Sadly having the posters IN the buses is not going to attract any new customers!

Agree with the above poster, some very good front line staff will go which I will be disappointed with. Some of them it will be good riddance to as they shouldn't be working in a customer facing company anyway as they cl;early hate passengers. But thats a minority. As said previously, there needs to be a cut down from the top of management to gain effiencies, but whether that happens or not is another matter.

Another thing to ponder, if DB want to abandon routes, why should we not put them open to tender for other operators? If they don't want to run them why should someone else not be allowed to? Or is keeping DB happy more important than the traveling public. I'd be delighted to see DB be the success it can be, and should be, but unless changes are made, it's not going to happen and I just think we're heading down a slippery slope here.

And I'll save the last words for Mr Dempsey and Mr Cowen: Keep digging. Your're getting this country in a deeper hole every day. Whilst I am not Labour's biggest fan in the UK, least they are trying.

Reyman

gurramok wrote: »

Whats the average/mean wage for a Dublin Bus driver?

Surely wage costs are a factor as well for their annual losses?

I think this is the key question! I have a feeling bus driver wages are way out of line with market forces. I'd love to know what a driver gets here versus say UK, France, or Spain. I'm willing to bet it's massively higher.

This has to be paid for I'm afraid.

AlekSmart

Antoin,In posting here I wish to make it clear that I do NOT speak for or with any input from Dublin Bus/CIE or anybody else.

My posts are based largely on personal experience and perhaps a closer perception of the internal company situation.
My opinions are not intended to be regarded as cast iron pronouncements so take them as you will.

according to Joe Meagher there are approximately 36 maintenance staff for every 100 buses. This is an awful lot, whatever way you count it. If most of the maintenance and cleaning is outsourced as you say it is, then it's even worse.

I would suspect that that figure is a TOTAL including outsourced staff of ALL maintenance staff including Skilled,Unskilled and Supervisory.

I would consider that to be quite a LOW figure when onr takes into account the volume of physical work required to keep a widely located fleet in operation.
It is somewhat different however, to saying 3 MECHANICS per bus.

That figure will of course drop in line with the fleet reductions which are anticipated.

Who is this recognised by? What terms did he get them on?

I can only offer this as an opinion and based upon private conversations with several levels of Engineering Staff from different UK Bus Groups.
These usually occurred at events in the UK such as the NEC Bus& Coach Show.

From these conversations over a number of years I know that the Chief Engineer of BAC has quite a reputation for his negotiation of such contracts in an Industry not noted for it`s ability to retain non-performers

As for the terms....I can only surmise that those would come under the definition,so beloved of the Dept of Transport,as "Commercially Sensitive" information.

If the buses are so well maintained, so serviceable, in such great shape and in such demand second hand, then why do Dublin Bus sell them?

The sale of BAC vehicles in recent times has been dictated by the tightly enforced cap on its fleet size (1182 at the moment I think ?)

Thus for each new vehicle delivered the company MUST withdraw an existing asset.
Given the levels of deliveries in recent years this has allowed BAC to provide a higher percentage of Fully Accessible services with the resultant withdrawal of perfectly servicable vehicles solely on the grounds of their design.

On a personal level I regard these withdrawals as being short sighted,as the recent withdrawals are more than capable of further revenue service.
It should be noted that ex BAC vehicles,usually converted into single-door mode are regarded as being fully operable in the UK up until 2016 and perhaps further if the legislation is amended as some observers believe will now happen post depression.

The prices being achieved by ex BAC double decks in the UK range from £35,000 to £50,000 for later Euro2 emmissions compliant vehicles.

Even so,this represents a great advance from the days when withdrawn CIE Buses were driven to Broadstone to be stored and then cut up with acetylene torches to prevent further use against the State !!

But they have increased demand over there. We do not. Demand for DB services has been falling, not increasing.

Now this IS a very interesting point.

Theris a widespread realization that general numbers of people travelling are down...waaaay down.
I would suspect that many of the Eastern European Building staff simply went home at Christmas and did not return.
In addition the native population is simply not doing the level of socializing it once did and the option of sitting in with cans of cheap hooch is now quite widely practiced without any stigma attaching.

Whether BAC as a company should merely sit and watch this without at least making an attempt to meet the challenge is a big issue for me.

However,as posted elsewhere,the Departmental control over fares and stage structures is jealously guarded and at the moment is unlikely to change.

In direct contrast to the Irish scene,Several of the UK`s Operators are talking-up their industry`s role in meeting the challenges of a recession/depression.

Whilst many operators are caught in a Catch 22 situation of recognizing the need for more and better Public Bus Services,these are only achievable IF the companies can secure credit to purchase new vehicles and accquire staff.

Todays announcement from the UK Govt concerning a Business Loan Fund is probably a welcome development for these businesses.

Therefore the arrival of large numbers of Buses in excellent mechanical condition could be said to be manna from a Celtic heaven for some UK companies.

In the general sense we now appear to have a country which has been sleep-walked into a disaster zone.

How can Minister Dempsey be pictured beaming a huge smile from the Hybrid Wrights Double Deck now on trial with BAC whilst now consigning the Industry as a whole back to the 1970`s.

I rather think that the Revenue generation capabilities of thousands of SUV`s,HUV`s Jeeps,Merc`s,BMW`s etc has quite effectively short-circuited any oul cobblers about Global Warming or Carbon Emissions in Noel`s fertile brain.

Kyoto seems a far flung place nowadays....

Phew....I need a Baileys after that !!

Metrobest

Dublin Bus's passenger numbers barely grew at all during the Celtic Tiger period while car traffic exploded. Dublin Bus should now be in a position to take advantage of reduced congestion and a demand for cheap (ie. public) transport, as the recession bites.

It's a tribute to Dublin Bus's spectacular incompetence that just when passenger numbers should be growing, they are in decline.

Nostradamus

paulm17781 wrote: »

You're wasting your time pointing out facts here. There are many here who will defend DB no matter what. Despite oil being down at 36 euro today, similar to 2005 (147 in July 2008) they will tell you fuel prices have rocketed in recent years.

The government are over all to blame but DB and all the CIE companies need a radical overhaul.

Yep. The old 'CIE Are Yer Only Man' Cult.

They want world class public transport - as long as CIE are running it. This mentality has facinated me for years. Like CIE are some kind of dogma or something.

Nostradamus

Metrobest wrote: »

Dublin Bus's passenger numbers barely grew at all during the Celtic Tiger period while car traffic exploded.

In real terms they actually collasped. If you take the immigrants and population growth of the last then years out of the equation. Not a pretty picture is it.

I would blame CIE and the Government 50/50. The blind leading the blind.

crocro

Is the problem with Dublin Bus not really simple?

When I lived in London I used the bus but now that I live in Dublin I don't. I tried but it didn't work. The bus in London kept roughly to its timetable and there was a sign on the bus shelter to tell me when it would arrive. That way I knew if I'd be better off walking or catching a taxi.

In Dublin the buses show up whenever or not at all. There is no way to know when the bus is coming so you just stand there like a tool and then you're late for work or for an exam or for a date. So you buy a car or a bike.

They say the problem is traffic but if that's the case then why is the service still abysmal out of hours and in uncongested areas of the suburbs?

The service doesn't work and that's why people choose not to use it even when there is a route that would perfectly suit them.

antoinolachtnai

AlekSmart wrote: »

Antoin,In posting here I wish to make it clear that I do NOT speak for or with any input from Dublin Bus/CIE or anybody else.

...

My opinions are not intended to be regarded as cast iron pronouncements so take them as you will.

I appreciate that and that is perfectly alright with me.

I would suspect that that figure is a TOTAL including outsourced staff of ALL maintenance staff including Skilled,Unskilled and Supervisory.

I would consider that to be quite a LOW figure when onr takes into account the volume of physical work required to keep a widely located fleet in operation.
It is somewhat different however, to saying 3 MECHANICS per bus.

That figure will of course drop in line with the fleet reductions which are anticipated.

To be fair, I said one mechanic for three buses not three for every bus! :-)

Here is my understanding of the number of employees at Dublin Bus.

There are 3729 people altogether working full-time.

75 percent of these are drivers (that's approx 2796).

25 percent do other things (that's 932). There are 36 employees in maintenance for every 100 buses. If there are 1200 buses, that's 432 staff.

So there are another 500 miscellaneous admin staff.

In addition to this, 26 million a year is spent on 'other services'. Presumably this is where contract cleaners are paid out of. But there are definitely around 432 maintenance staff working directly for Dublin Bus. The CEO of Dublin Bus told the Transport Committee that there were 36 staff for 100 buses around the middle of last year.

I appreciate your comments about the engineer, but I do not think what is written is true. If it were, it would put the company in a bad light. Dublin Bus is not supposed to negotiate vehicle purchases. It is supposed to purchase vehicles by means of a tender. 'Post tender negotiation' is forbidden and if it were known to have happened, the tender would have to be run again. When purchasing for the public purse, you cannot do a Ryanair and play one supplier off against the other. There was a recent High Court case about this, though it is well understood and established as a principle of European law (See the government procurement guidelines, 1984 (http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/pubprocguidejuly04.pdf), section 6.20.

The sale of BAC vehicles in recent times has been dictated by the tightly enforced cap on its fleet size (1182 at the moment I think ?)

Thus for each new vehicle delivered the company MUST withdraw an existing asset.
Given the levels of deliveries in recent years this has allowed BAC to provide a higher percentage of Fully Accessible services with the resultant withdrawal of perfectly servicable vehicles solely on the grounds of their design.

This is not the official reason given by Dublin Bus (and I appreciate you do not speak on their behalf and I do not expect to defend their every utterance!). The reason Dublin Bus gives is that the chassis guarantee expires after 12 years, and that's why they want to replace them.

It does seem to me that the reason for ordering new buses rather than retaining old ones is that the desire to buy new kit prevailed over the need to provide more services for a lower cost per mile.

The prices being achieved by ex BAC double decks in the UK range from £35,000 to £50,000 for later Euro2 emmissions compliant vehicles.

Dublin Bus told the Department that they were worth less than half this amount when making the case for replacing them.

Theris a widespread realization that general numbers of people travelling are down...waaaay down.
I would suspect that many of the Eastern European Building staff simply went home at Christmas and did not return.
In addition the native population is simply not doing the level of socializing it once did and the option of sitting in with cans of cheap hooch is now quite widely practiced without any stigma attaching.

Whether BAC as a company should merely sit and watch this without at least making an attempt to meet the challenge is a big issue for me.

DB upper management has been very aware of the drop in patronage since at least November, and the fact that this was happening should have been clear at operational level since March or April.

The problem is that Dublin Bus didn't actually achieve any modal shift. It didn't get anybody out of cars and into buses. All it did was cater for the temporary increase in population whilst upwardly mobile Dubliners got cars. (It should have been clear that this was happening when a car manufacturer ran an 'only losers take the bus' ad on Dublin Bus vehicles. It would also have been clear from customer surveys, which DB seems to do quite a lot of.)

So now someone will have to figure out the next step. Obviously, the next step is not to give up. This has to be tried again in order to get it to work. But it has to be done differently, better. There needs to be some new thinking here. Is the existing setup going to come up with the great ideas? That's the decision that has to be made.

How can Minister Dempsey be pictured beaming a huge smile from the Hybrid Wrights Double Deck now on trial with BAC whilst now consigning the Industry as a whole back to the 1970`s.

I rather think that the Revenue generation capabilities of thousands of SUV`s,HUV`s Jeeps,Merc`s,BMW`s etc has quite effectively short-circuited any oul cobblers about Global Warming or Carbon Emissions in Noel`s fertile brain.

I really think that transport is an operational business. The first step to modal shift is operational excellence and efficiency. We don't have that, and that is not the fault of the Department of Transport.

The Department of Transport largely depends on Dublin Bus for advice about transport development in Dublin and follows it. You may not believe this, but it is true. There are problems at the strategic level for sure, but the most pressing problems are further down the line.

loyatemu

1. Simplify the fare structure and remove cash from the buses (simple parking-machine type units could be installed at the stops, though obviously a largely smartcard based system would be the ideal).
2. Simplify the routes and reduce the number of stops (far too many stops too close together on most routes)
3. Better bus priority at junctions
4. Passenger Information system to tell you when the bus is due - at the moment you don't even know if it is running at all.

There's obviously costs involved in all this, but I think if these steps were implemented the service would be more efficient and cost less in the long run.

Run_to_da_hills

loyatemu wrote: »

1. Simplify the fare structure and remove cash from the buses

Already on the way. They need to offer a capped flat rate fare on all Dublin Busses.

AlekSmart

To be fair, I said one mechanic for three buses not three for every bus! :-)

.....OOps freudian slip...mea culpa maxima !!

I appreciate your comments about the engineer, but I do not think what is written is true. If it were, it would put the company in a bad light. Dublin Bus is not supposed to negotiate vehicle purchases. It is supposed to purchase vehicles by means of a tender. 'Post tender negotiation' is forbidden and if it were known to have happened, the tender would have to be run again. When purchasing for the public purse, you cannot do a Ryanair and play one supplier off against the other. There was a recent High Court case about this, though it is well understood and established as a principle of European law

The tender process is indeed the methodology utilised and it does result in as fair and transparent a deal as can be got.

I would be extremely surpried however if in the asociated evaluation process which all major chassis and bodywork manufacturers submit their wares to that some plain talking (Of the sort eschewed by the Takeover Panel of late) would be engaged in which allows the manufacturers a chance to explore elements of the tender specs which may be unclear.

There is also the more recent innovations of extended warranty add-on`s and of individual component warranties,all of which may be supplemental to a particular vehicle or type of vehicle dependent on the level of manufacturer support negotiated.

Its worth remarking at just how much of our own Government business is carried out at various 19th`s around the country away from the distracting hurly-burly of crass commerce...

The reason Dublin Bus gives is that the chassis guarantee expires after 12 years, and that's why they want to replace them.

It does seem to me that the reason for ordering new buses rather than retaining old ones is that the desire to buy new kit prevailed over the need to provide more services for a lower cost per mile.

I would agree with your reasoning here,but there may have been a degree of future-proofing going on as well,especially in the area of emissions.

I think the company changed its write-down period for Buses some years ago from 16 down to 12 years.
The arrival of the Equal Status Act 2000 and its provisions vis a vis disabled access doubtlessly provided yet more stimulous and the opportunity to be seen as a pro active player in an area which has taken on a life of its own.

Dublin Bus told the Department that they were worth less than half this amount when making the case for replacing them.

Im fairly certain that BAC would have been using figures based upon the home market value here.
The figures I give come from recent editions of the UK trade magazines and have to be taken in context of these vehicles requiring some mechanical work to accquire a UK Certificate of Initial Fitness (COIF) and of course the removal of the dreaded centre-door.

It is quite readily accepted however that the major dealer Ensign Bus has little difficulty in selling-on the BAC vehicles and they presumably are covering their own costs also.

The problem is that Dublin Bus didn't actually achieve any modal shift. It didn't get anybody out of cars and into buses. All it did was cater for the temporary increase in population whilst upwardly mobile Dubliners got cars.

Another quite true statement,however it appears to place the entire burden of achieving this modal shift on BAC itself.

One of the most obvious problems associated with achieving this modal shift is the very public lack of ANY cohesive Joint Approach between BAC and the many and various other agencies and statutory bodies which occupy strategic positions in Dublin City`s infrastructure.

One only has to look at the wreckage of the Integrated Ticketing Project to get verification of that.
It is beyond comprehension that a Secretary General of the Transport Department can preside over the disbursement of some 34 Million Euro and not have a functional system to show for it.

Some pretty fundemental errors and ommissions appear to have occurred in the Tender Process here at the 11th hour and which have yet to be explained fully to either the Oireachtas or the Public at large.

.

There needs to be some new thinking here. Is the existing setup going to come up with the great ideas?

$64,000 question here....and based upon the wisps of smoke from Mr Dempsey`s office I suspect the answer is Nìl

HydeRoad

There are two other important elements to consider.

First is the role of the city councils in the operation of the bus services. There seems to be too much mistrust and bad blood between DCC and Dublin Bus for example, where Dublin Bus blames the council for not providing more bus priority and bus stop space, and the council blame Dublin Bus for littering the streets with parked, empty buses.

Dublin City Council, and the other councils, need to be proactive in the design and implementation of bus routes and bus priority, in full co-operation with Dublin Bus, the Department of Transport, and the Gardai. At present, each agency seems more interested in marking their own territory than giving ground to anyone else.

Secondly, is the role of the Gardai, in the licensing of bus stops, in the policing of bus lanes and bus priority, and in the better policing of city traffic in general. An all year round Operation Freeflow is not enough, it needs specific targetting of particular junctions and pinch points in the network, and an understanding of the contribution a well planned and well operated bus network to the environment in general. At present, buses seem to be regarded as just another part of the problem, along with all the other traffic, rather than part of the solution.

Also in the role of the Gardai, is the policing of vandalism and anti social behaviour on the buses, which is relevant in the sense of deterring commuters from using buses at all, and adding to the private car traffic. People will not abandon the car in favour of public transport until they feel safe and comfortable using public transport.

All four agencies together, Dublin Bus, the Department of Transport, the city councils, and the Gardai, in CO-OPERATION, hold the key to the improved efficiency of the bus service, which can be achieved in SPADES without the need for service cuts, loss of jobs, or customer inconvenience. However, co-operation is the key. At present, Dublin Bus seems only to antagonise those people it most needs the assistance of.

The fear Dublin Bus have of greater efficiency, of negotiation with anyone, will only lead to the imposition of the kind of industry cuts that will serve neither Dublin Bus nor the customer. Perhaps even to eventual total privatisation, the one thing they fear most.

Aquavid

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I appreciate your comments about the engineer, but I do not think what is written is true. If it were, it would put the company in a bad light. Dublin Bus is not supposed to negotiate vehicle purchases. It is supposed to purchase vehicles by means of a tender. 'Post tender negotiation' is forbidden and if it were known to have happened, the tender would have to be run again. When purchasing for the public purse, you cannot do a Ryanair and play one supplier off against the other. There was a recent High Court case about this, though it is well understood and established as a principle of European law (See the government procurement guidelines, 1984 (http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/pubprocguidejuly04.pdf), section 6.20.
.

Just to shed some light on this specific point.

Dublin Bus are using a specific form of tendering for these purchases known as "Negociated with call for competition".

This form is one of those specifically recognised and provided for in the Government's official tender guidelines.

I have checked the most recent (2008) vehicle orders on eTenders, and this "negociated with call for competition" is openly and clearly indicated on both the tender document, and the contract award notice - so the manner in which these tenders are conducted is legal, or would seem to be accepted as so by our government.

With that point mentioned, I will bow out of the debate - too little time I'm afraid!

Aquavid

antoinolachtnai

If they are doing negotiated, then they could do this, yes. The situations in which negotiated tenders are permitted are narrow enough. It is hard to see why there would be a requirement to negotiate when buying new buses and why the ordinary tender procedure would not be followed.

EdgarAllenPoo

290 jobs to go in Dublin Bus in the next six weeks. Holy Jesus Christ.

Cookie_Monster

GDM wrote: »

290 jobs to go in Dublin Bus in the next six weeks. Holy Jesus Christ.

source?

highgiant1985

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

source?

Here ->

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0116/transport.html

dub_commuter

I hope the Unions give them hell. Infact I will be delighted to see it, and hope Fianna Fail get absolutely slaughtered by the politicians from other parties today. No doubt it will be drivers and maintenance staff rather than the management that get the cull.

Obviously they are not going to withdraw any services, this is so they hold on to licenses so anyone else cannot possibly take them over and get a bigger slice of the market, rather than for the good of the people in the area who would benefit from this.

Mr Dempsey, and to a smaller degree Dublin Bus have shown they care little about the bigger picture and the likes of you and me getting to work, as well as their staff, the private operators could have played a good part in stopping these cutbacks hit as much as they will, but that would make too much sense to actually realize.

What a laughing stock. I used to absolutely hate unions. But by christ, I'll support them all the way now.