Narcissists

CeilingCat

Hi everyone...

I was wondering if I could get a few opinions on something I had a conversation about recently. Basically, myself and a friend were talking about narcissists and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, mostly in the context of abusive or toxic relationships, and mostly about guys (although of course it applies equally to women). Some of the posts in the worst relationships etc. thread would certainly suggest that a lot of the ladies on here have had a brush with an abusive narcissist at some point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

http://white-can-vas.blogspot.com/2006/05/narcissistic-abuser.html

(If this belongs in the Psychology forum, mods please move it - but I was hoping to get some ladies perspectives and experiences here.)

We came to the conclusion that based on our own experiences, it was very hard to spot initially that the guys in question were actually anything but perfectly nice and normal.... which seems to be the case, as these guys tend to lie a lot and project a calculated persona that is designed to make them look good. So, we got to thinking that there must be something in a certain type of woman that attracts them - and how to identify this and correct it in ourselves??

Most of the websites I have seen on the subject say weak, impressionable women with low confidence are the most likely targets for a narcissistic guy - but I don't find that to be the case that often - I've seen plenty of talented, successful, strong women fall for it too.

So what is it? And how does a person stop it from happeneing to them??

armour87

I think there's a bit of narcissism in everyone, I don't see how a member of the opposite sex would necessarily be attracted to a 'narcissistic' person as the patterns wouldn't be apparent straight away.

Dragan

The vast majority of the time someone will catch the behaviour. I have done plenty of times in the past, a female friend trots out a new fella and is all delighted to have bagged him and when asked me what i think of him and reply was negative it would be ignored, then a year down the line you are the shoulder to cry on.

The clues are there, they are always there, i think the vast majority of the time people just choose to ignore them.

Nevyn

A lot of the traits which are seen as being attractive and admirable in a 'man' are ones which can be toned down or missed or glossed over or the extent or intensity of them
over looked and not 'coped on' to as negative traits due to the first flush of lust and having
rose tinited glasses.

The same thing can happen to blokes when dealing with women, both genders miss things when the blood flow is directed from the brain and they are caught up in attraction.

Snowie

Thaedydal wrote: »

A lot of the traits which are seen as being attractive and admirable in a 'man' are ones which can be toned down or missed or glossed over or the extent or intensity of them
over looked and not 'coped on' to as negative traits due to the first flush of lust and having
rose tinited glasses.

bye that do you mean take a guy he's loud confident etc, But deep down he is not? and then its not noticed for sometime...?

Darragh29

I used to work for this company and my manager had the worst case I have ever seen of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It was so obvious, the constant lying, lying about lying, manipulation, uncontrollable notions of grandeur and greatness, a lack of empathy with staff and the appearance of ruthlessness, I wouldn't agree that these people are hard to identify, I think it is the easiest disorder to identify in people, they are simply unable to cover up their behaviour I think, I would go a step further and call this disorder a type of mental disability or mild retardation, at least this is what the case of it I'm referring to above appeared to be...

panda100

CeilingCat wrote: »

So, we got to thinking that there must be something in a certain type of woman that attracts them - and how to identify this and correct it in ourselves??

Most of the websites I have seen on the subject say weak, impressionable women with low confidence are the most likely targets for a narcissistic guy - but I don't find that to be the case that often - I've seen plenty of talented, successful, strong women fall for it too.

So what is it? And how does a person stop it from happeneing to them??

I have known one guy to have all the traits listed on that wikepedia entry and ,personally ,I found him the most attractive person I've ever met.
The reason why i find Narcissit's so attractive is because they are so confident and arrogant. I find this the most attractive trait in a guy.

I dont think having an inflated ego is a 'personality disorder'. I remember reading about all these 'personality disorders' while studying psychiatry and just thought it was a load of nonsense.
Its just another perosnality and there's nothing 'disorderly' about it. I hate the way psychiatry/psychology labels this as a "disorder" so they can drug up all the intresting people who have distinctive thoughts on antipsychotics so we are all numbed into being exactly the same.

Darragh29

panda100 wrote: »

I have known one guy to have all the traits listed on that wikepedia entry and ,personally ,I found him the most attractive person I've ever met.
The reason why i find Narcissit's so attractive is because they are so confident and arrogant. I find this the most attractive trait in a guy.

I dont think having an inflated ego is a 'personality disorder'. I remember reading about all these 'personality disorders' while studying psychiatry and just thought it was a load of nonsense.
Its just another perosnality and there's nothing 'disorderly' about it. I hate the way psychiatry/psychology labels this as a "disorder" so they can drug up all the intresting people who have distinctive thoughts on antipsyhcotics so we are all numbed into being exactly the same.

I've never actually seen this trait in a woman, (all the women I know are really nice!).

I know a few people who are confident at what they do because they are good at what they do and they are respected for it. The person I used as an example above, he was overtly confident at what he did but he was completely sh*t at his job, which made him a pathethic figure in my eyes.

The arrogance and confidence coming out of a narrcisist is false, it's a charade to cover up for other deap seated insecurities...

Nevyn

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

bye that do you mean take a guy he's loud confident etc, But deep down he is not? and then its not noticed for sometime...?

Nope.

Panda100 another wonderful post from you, damn am I going to have
to come stalk you in college to meet you or what ?

panda100 wrote: »

Its just another perosnality and there's nothing 'disorderly' about it. I hate the way psychiatry/psychology labels this as a "disorder" so they can drug up all the intresting people who have distinctive thoughts on antipsychotics so we are all numbed into being exactly the same.

Yes to a point but if them being 'intresting' means they are not 'functioning' in their life while trying to dance to the beat of their own drum then it's a problem and a dysfunction but for the most part drugs are not the answer (esp self medicating with non perscription 'drugs' ) they will treat the symptoms until they learn what it is they need to do to function with out throwing away the drum and being fitted with a pre programed drum machine which only plays the most generic and boring beats.

Of course some people have a whole symphonic percussion section rather then just a drum

niceirishfella

I worked with a Narcissist - and what a low life he was.
There are 7 traits, and he had them all,total scum.
Large business's seem to attract them. They should be put down at birth.

Dragan

panda100 wrote: »

I have known one guy to have all the traits listed on that wikepedia entry and ,personally ,I found him the most attractive person I've ever met.
The reason why i find Narcissit's so attractive is because they are so confident and arrogant. I find this the most attractive trait in a guy.

I dont think having an inflated ego is a 'personality disorder'. I remember reading about all these 'personality disorders' while studying psychiatry and just thought it was a load of nonsense.
Its just another perosnality and there's nothing 'disorderly' about it. I hate the way psychiatry/psychology labels this as a "disorder" so they can drug up all the intresting people who have distinctive thoughts on antipsychotics so we are all numbed into being exactly the same.

Great post. I think people get too hung up on cockiness, or ego, or confidence. Personally, i am a confident person. Very much so. I am well aware of my physically and intellectual abilities and i try to push them as far as i can, almost on a daily basis.

However, the only reason people don't call me cocky is because i am also agreeable, can hold a polite debate and conversation and will respect you and your opinion.

It is very easy to pop a simple description into a catagory labeled "bad trait". Personally i don't think an ego is a bad trait, once that ego is grounded in reality and goes hand in hand with a sense of realism.

PrivateEye

I know a lad who basically thinks he's the dogs bollocks at everything, and women seem to find it, for the most part, hilarious.

I think its very important you remember you're no worse, and worth no less, than anyone else. Its equally important you don't run away and become a one man fanclub, because you'll just annoy everyone else and they become quite distant quite fast. Sometimes a woman will clearly take to him at first in a 'Oh, he's got confidence' way......

...but 10 minutes into the conversation, its normally buh bye.

Mega-difference between confidence and narcissism.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Earthhorse

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah, great post donegalfella. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that chances are most people have never met or been out with someone with NPD. They may have some of the symptoms, some similar traits but it isn't NPD.

wikipedia wrote:

Personality disorder, formerly referred to as a Character Disorder, is a class of mental disorders characterized by rigid and on-going patterns of feeling, thinking, and behavior. The underlying belief systems informing these patterns are referred to as fixed fantasies or "dysfunctional schemata" (Cognitive modules). The inflexibility and pervasiveness of these behavioral patterns often cause serious personal and social difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment.

This is what's key to remember, in order for it to be a personality disorder the behavrious must be fixed and causing problems. If someone's at home with their inflated ego, and many are, and it's not causing them problems then chances are it isn't a personality disorder (even if it's causing you problems).

Would also agree with Dragan, that the signs of someone who is deeply self-involved and will treat you like shit are quite obvious. It amazes me the amount of times I've seen women out with guys like that and everyone in the room can see it except them.

And I guess that would be my question for you CeilingCat? Can you recognise these types of guys when they are going out with your friends? Is it only when you're seeing them that this block in identifying them develops?

Monkey61

panda100 wrote: »

I dont think having an inflated ego is a 'personality disorder'. I remember reading about all these 'personality disorders' while studying psychiatry and just thought it was a load of nonsense.
Its just another perosnality and there's nothing 'disorderly' about it. I hate the way psychiatry/psychology labels this as a "disorder" so they can drug up all the intresting people who have distinctive thoughts on antipsychotics so we are all numbed into being exactly the same.

No having an inflated ego isn't a personality disorder, but Narcissistic personality disorder is a lot more then having a bit of an ego.

Anti psychotics are predominantly used to treat people with psychosis. They are a very serious and heavy medication not dispensed willy nilly by doctors to people who are a "bit of a character."

If a person suffering from any kind of personality disorder has gone so far as to seek medical help because of it, one can imagine that they are suffering and it is impeding their daily life on quite a large level.

Psychiatrists don't skip around the country with large nets and pointy syringes trying to snare "interesting people who have distinctive thoughts."

There is nothing glorious or interesting (on the level I inferred from your comment) about mental illness or personality disorders in general. They are debilitating, torturous and cause great unhappiness both to the sufferer themselves and the people they come into contact with.

Raze_them_all

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah cock I think I fit that 1%!

Earthhorse

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I think I fit that 1%!

Raze_them_all wrote: »

This little fella suggests otherwise.

CeilingCat

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

The type of narcissism I was talking about would be the personality disorder abusive type, as opposed to just people with inflated egos (egoes?), or people who are just a bit full of themselves. Spotting them is not hard at all - but I was sort of asking more about their 'victims', for want of a better term. Or I guess, in laymans terms - how can we locate and deactivate our internal asshole magnets?!

CeilingCat wrote: »

So, we got to thinking that there must be something in a certain type of woman that attracts them - and how to identify this and correct it in ourselves??

Most of the websites I have seen on the subject say weak, impressionable women with low confidence are the most likely targets for a narcissistic guy - but I don't find that to be the case that often - I've seen plenty of talented, successful, strong women fall for it too.

So what is it? And how does a person stop it from happeneing to them??

Earthhorse wrote: »

And I guess that would be my question for you CeilingCat? Can you recognise these types of guys when they are going out with your friends? Is it only when you're seeing them that this block in identifying them develops?

This is what sparked the discussion in the first place. We agreed that sometimes they were easy to spot... other times not, and those times the results weren't pretty. My personal experience is that I have a tendency to attract narcissistic abuser types (not just in relationships). That's not to say I've gone ahead and gotten involved with all of them - or that everyone I've had a relationship with was one. Over time, I've become better at spotting and nipping this in the bud when it happens.

(And yes, I've looked for these traits in myself, and while I do have my ego moments and recognise them - I definately don't see abusive traits in myself.)

The fact that I seem to attract them though is obviously a cause for concern, and what myself and my friend were trying figure out (without sounding like we think it's our fault that this is happening) - what can we do to change whatever it is in ourselves that they're drawn to?

I guess I'm looking for feedback from people who have wondered the same thing or even solved it successfully.....

mollybird

i was seeing a guy for four years on and off who displayed those traits. talk about emotionally and psychologically draining. everything was about him and never about me. but if he said jump id say how high. the only way i could get rid of him was when he finally moved over to the states to get married for a green card and i eventually fell in love with one of his mates and couldn't be happier.

Macha

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've never actually seen this trait in a woman, (all the women I know are really nice!).

My old (female) boss had 8 of those 9 traits. She probably had all 9 but I can't say for sure if she had fantasies of unlimited power...yes, she probably did. She basically turned the whole office into her little kingdom with herself as the queen bee.

It was a horrible, horrible experience.

CeilingCat wrote: »

So what is it? And how does a person stop it from happeneing to them??

I think when it happens to you once, you never forget and learn to spot the warning signs. I know that if anyone treated me at all like my old boss, alarm bells would be ringing in my head!

But at the time, I put up with it for quite a while.

sam34

panda100 wrote: »

I dont think having an inflated ego is a 'personality disorder'. I remember reading about all these 'personality disorders' while studying psychiatry and just thought it was a load of nonsense.
Its just another perosnality and there's nothing 'disorderly' about it. I hate the way psychiatry/psychology labels this as a "disorder" so they can drug up all the intresting people who have distinctive thoughts on antipsychotics so we are all numbed into being exactly the same.

LOL!

firstly, one trait does not make a personality disorder. far from it. most, if not all, people have some traits of personality disorders, but in isolation these traits do not make up a diagnosis of personality disorder.

secondly, personality disorders are defined as enduring patterns of thinking and behaviour that interfere with a person's functionong.
there is plenty "disorderly" about people with personality disorders....

....repetitive self harm
....substance misuse
....manipulation
....lying and cheating
....lack of remorse
....lack of empathy
....socially deviant behaviour
....violence and aggression
....rape
....murder

......to name a few.
Disorderly enough for you? Or "a load of nonsense"?

i've gone across teh whole spectrum from relatively minor to the most serious there, to demonstrate the range of "disorderly" behaviour that can be seen. (Note: I am not saying that all people with a PD behave in the above manner, nor am i saying that all murderers/rapists etc have a PD)

thirdly, being "interesting people who have distinctive thoughts on anti-psychotics" is not a diagnostic criteria for any mental illness or personality disorder.

fourthly, psychiatry does not drug someone purely because they have "interesting" or "distinctive thoughts". psychiatry treats people who have mental illnesses. unusual thoughts or beliefs may form parts of these illnesses, eg delusions in schizophrenia, but in the absence of mental ilness psychiatry will not be involved and people are free to think and believe whatever they want.

fifthly, psychiatry does not "numb people into being exactly the same". psychiatry aims to relieve people of illness and symptoms, as do most doctors. it is not the intent nor hope that people will be "numbed into being the same"... the absence of symptoms is one of the ultimate aims of treatment.
this notion that we aim to create a race of clones is quite frankly ridiculous.


finally, i lolled at how you only ststed you had read about personality disorders in psychiatry, not that you had seen patients with them, yet you dismiss them as a load of nonsense. a disturbing level of arrogance and ignorance rolled into one.

Wibbs

sam34 wrote: »

secondly, personality disorders are defined as enduring patterns of thinking and behaviour that interfere with a person's functionong.

I would agree and that sentence would sum it up perfectly. I would though, take some of what panda100 is saying, albeit maybe from a different angle.

Yes I do fully believe PD's exist and are real brain/mind/emotional disorders. No doubt in my mind. I've seen them up close and their effect on the person and those around them. Not good.

What I would worry about(and I've seen this up close too) is that your damn near perfect definition of this may be spread too wide. IE The definitions of functioning as a useful member of society may be set too low in some cases and the net spread too wide to also encompass a person who has a different objective definition of same.

IMHO There does seem to be an over tendency to ascribe disorders where it may well be in the range of human experience and personality ranges. That because these disorders are more accepted as such the tendency is to see more and more of them that necessitate treatment. Kinda like when you buy your first red car, you tend to notice more red cars than before. Seek and you will find, if you're looking for something then you're gonna see that. I would be wary of a situation where the cure is looking for a disease, where none may exist or the cure is worse than the disease it's trying to alleviate.

I would also be wary of the "it's a disorder" as an excuse or indeed even as a misguided comfort to those who may not suffer from same, but are vulnerable and open to the idea that it's a disorder.

The fact is as science is today, we have many theories and many paradigms and indeed layers of abstraction to try and explain the pretty wide gamut of human expression and thought and brain processes.

We are learning all the time and know so much more than in the early days of psychiatry/psychology, but we know so little too.

All too often we are using sledgehammers to crack nuts or equally trying to crack nuts with a marshmallow hammer. If we were so sure as some seem to think or put their faith in, then the near epidemic of the range of mental illness would be an easier nut to crack and if the figures are anything to go by they're worse, not better. Is that the fault of modern life? Maybe. Is it the fault of ever increasing need to describe disorder at the edge of that human range where none may exist? Quite possibly. To strongly believe otherwise is hardly prudent, given what history, the history of discovery and science and common sense on the back of that, suggests.

We're far from an antibiotic to the bacteria of pain and personal suffering. We're barely in the knowledge of the antiseptic stage of that comparison. To paraphrase Newton(a bit of a "nutcase" too:)) The great undiscovered ocean that lays before us still has a helluva lot of water to plumb and mark the fathoms on.

That would be my take anyhoo.