Rules regarding Automatics when stopped

sungear

All,
I have looked but cannot find the rules regarding auto cars in Ireland, re stopping and taking off at junctions.Found some info which confirms this for a UK site.
Firstly I am a full licence for years and in my opinion Id treat it as a manual, but my GF wont listen, she has gotten conflicting information from driving instructors which I have disputed with her, as the info is different and obviously stupid, or appears so to me.

For me I'd stop the car, put the handbrake on and push into neutral, Im not completely certain if putting into neutral is necessary so long as you confirm the handbrake will hold by releasing the footbrake with caution.
Taking off, Id hold the handbrake press or cover the accelerator (depending if on slope) then pressing the accelerator to move off.

She has been told some things by two different instuctors which I think are incorrect.
1. Stop at lights, put handbrake on but press footbrake before moving off?
I asked her Why would u press the footbrake before moving off, well apparently it is to stop the car moving after you release the handbrake??
I deem that unnecessary as if you were on a hill start, you may roll back slightly in the time it takes to move your foot to the accelerator,if u were in a habit of doing it at all other times.
I'd do similar to manual and hold the handbrake-release and press accelerator, more accelerator depending on slope and possibly earlier.
2. Also Told her there is no need to put the handbrake on at lights, just hold the foot brake, I'd deem that kinda antisocial and if you gotten bumped in an auto or manual downright dangerous just more so in an auto, either at the front of the Q at lights or anywhere else.

Can anyone clarify?? I'm a bit pissed as she wont take free lessons as she refuses to take constructive criticism but she insists on paying 40 euro to drive her own car to listen to some people who it seems to me are not professional/know what the hell they are talking about, is there any regulation for auto instructors, I dont think the people she has paid so far have a clue ??
Answers off instructors appreciated also.

Tails142

Just put your foot on the brake and leave it in drive.

Car will never roll backwards when you take your foot off the brake, there is no need to use the handbrake.

You're causing unneeded wear by moving from neutral to drive all the time; there are no clutch discs rubbing just fluid passing an impeller so causes no extra wear to leave it in drive at lights.

Most handbrakes wont hold a car in drive anyway.

Alanstrainor

Okay, when coming to a stop, leave the car in Drive (D) and put in the handbrake if you wish, ie if you're stopped for longer than say 5 seconds. Modern autos "auto creep forward" in D, therefore, there is no hill start as such, just accelerate and it will go forward, and depending on the hill the car should be able to hold itself with the engine alone, eliminating the chances of it rolling back.
You can just use the footbreak at lights if you wish, but i'd just pop the handbrake on so you can relax your right foot. Also having your footbreak applied the whole time could be annoying to motorists behind you.

Tails142 wrote: »

Most handbrakes wont hold a car in drive anyway.

I would tend to disagree, every auto i've driven has had no trouble holding the car on the handbrake. The torque converter in modern autos, means that you have to use very little force on either the foot break or hand break to keep the car stationary.

sungear

Hmm the car might not roll backwards but it will go forwards if you're shunted, otherwise whats the point of the handbrake?? I mean you dont need it when parked, or at least you could do without it as you have P which you would never use when driving.

Also most handbrakes, that should be all handbrakes should hold a car in my opinion.
And I dont believe too much extra wear is being caused by changing gear from D to N, no more than leaving it in D and have the car attempting to move against the handbrake or the foot brake??
The car labours more when not in neutral, ie in D with brakes applied so more fuel must be consumed.
I appreciate the reply but Im not inclined to agree with you tails other than the rolling back on a hill, I've yet to test the not rolling backwards as on a slight hill it wouldn't move forward on its own without pressing the accelerater, which it will do on the flat. It is only a 1.0 auto tho.

I definitely dont like parking up behind people with the footbrake on myself, so many do it what can you do, apart from not add to the anti socialness.

I think the jury is still out, I appreciate the responses but I'm interested to see what other replies come in.

brian076

As an instructor and ex tester I would advise you to put it in N with the handbrake on if you are going to be stopped for any length of time eg more than 10 seconds.

Alanstrainor

brian076 wrote: »

As an instructor and ex tester I would advise you to put it in N with the handbrake on if you are going to be stopped for any length of time eg more than 10 seconds.

Moving the car into neutral really takes away from the benefit of having an auto box. Leaving the car in drive while stopped puts no additional wear on the components of the car, the torque converter absorbs the engine’s propulsion force but does not transmit it all to the gearbox. So in short no wear is taking place, more wear would be put on the gear box taking it out of drive, and putting it in neutral, only to have to put it in drive again when ready to move off.
It's a common thing to see drivers put their autos into neutral when stopped, as more often than not in Ireland, drivers hold a full manual license, and never learned how to properly use an auto box. Instead they use a hybrid way of doing things, between manual and auto transmissions.

Wishbone Ash

brian076 wrote: »

As an instructor and ex tester I would advise you to put it in N with the handbrake on if you are going to be stopped for any length of time eg more than 10 seconds.

I'd have to disagree with that Brian. It should be left in Drive unless parked up. As others have said, moving it to N causes unnecessary wear on the gearbox. All the auto car/truck/bus manuals specifically say that it should be left in Drive.

sungear wrote:

And I dont believe too much extra wear is being caused by changing gear from D to N, no more than leaving it in D and have the car attempting to move against the handbrake or the foot brake??

The gearbox is designed to be left in D and it doesn't cause any strain on it.

As has been said, the parking brake (handbrake) should be applied during lighting up hours to avoid inconvienence to the driver behind.

Wishbone Ash

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It's a common thing to see drivers put their autos into neutral when stopped

...the quick flash of the reverse lights as they pass R to re-select D being the tell-tale sign.

Old wives tales are alive and well!

sungear

Brian, I am in agreement and I am glad its an instructor and ex tester, I think you've put the answer as simply as possible.

Also bit of an error on someones part here

...the quick flash of the reverse lights as they pass R to re-select D being the tell-tale sign.

You would have had to gone to Park to obtain that result.

Perhaps it depends on the car but it goes to reverse (ie reverse light comes on also) after taking out of park, to go from D to N in the car I am familiar with is one push up and you would not have the car go into reverse unless you uneccessarily went to P Park.
Its P R N D 2 1, I'm sure thats the standard layout for cars anyway.

I cant say I claim to have read all vehicle manuals, but have confirmed that with one bus driver I know as they said it was standard practice to put into N when stopped for safety reasons, but also a few of their smaller local buses (IMPS) went on fire as they were left in D. Ie overheated

Torque convertor or no, it has to create pressure,heat and friction, that in my mind is more wear and tear than going from N to D, which is no more wear than putting your manual into neutral, which happens a lot more but they still last years??

Moving the car into neutral doesn't take away from the benefit of having an auto in my opinion.Its safer puts less strain on the handbrake which should be on.
I disagree Leaving the car in drive while stopped puts no additional wear on the components of the car, the torque converter absorbs the engine’s propulsion force??. apart from the strain on the brakes-fricition-heat- therefore energy is being used to stay stationary.

I think the conservation of energy law kinda disputes that one about the torque convertor too, someones saying the torque convertor absorbs the energy?
it has to turn it into something- heat if its doing that it is using energy and therefore fuel, again while stationary.. doubly inefficient.

If its temporary ie moving traffic then leave in D but stopped like Brian said >10secs seems reasonable to go to N, I wouldn't sit in gear with the clutch down in a manual for any length of time??

"As has been said, the parking brake (handbrake) should be applied during lighting up hours to avoid inconvienence to the driver behind."

I never heard that the handbrake should be applied differently during day or night hours other than here so I think thats someones incorrect assumption, maybe Brian could clarify if there is a difference in handbrake operation re time of day??

brian076

This is one of these situations where there's probably no right or wrong. As I said my advice would be to put it into N and apply the handbrake, however if someone on a test left it in D they wouldn't be marked for doing it, even if they held it on the footbrake. It's similar with a manual, most pupils would be taught to apply the handbrake and leave the car in neutral when stopped for more than 10 seconds or so. However if someone on a driving test leaves the car in 1st gear and holds it on the footbrake, there would be no mark, once the car is under control

copacetic

just a query OP, why bother asking the question when you are going to ignore anyone who disagrees with you?

Leave the bloody thing in drive, it's what they are designed for. If you want to insist on treating it like a manual then go and buy a manual. What has not leaving a manual in gear on the clutch got to do with it? They aren't designed for that. Autos are designed to be left in drive.

N on an auto is purely there for car washes and towing.

sungear

I own a manual, my GF has the auto if you read the thread!

copacetic

sungear wrote: »

I own a manual, my GF has the auto if you read the thread!

I did, why are you trying to make her drive it like a manual?

You said you would treat it like a manual. Why on earth would anyone with any sense buy/drive an auto and do that. Do you really think that is what they are designed for?

A lot of newer autos don't even had a handbrake anymore. Eg Mercedes have a foot operated 'parking brake' an audi have an elctronic 'parking brake'.

I hope she is a boardsie and sees this thread and tells you were to stick it the next time you try and make her drive her car the totally wrong way.

Wishbone Ash

How to Drive an Automatic Car


Get into the car and put on your seat belt.

Insure that the parking brake is on.

Take the car key and start the car.

Press the brakes and hold.

Move the stick from P ( parked ) to R ( reverse ) if you're going backwards. If you are going forwards put it from P to D ( drive ). If the stick is on the driving column you may need to jog it slightly towards you to begin moving it up or down.

When the stick is in place, turn the parking brake off.

Check your mirrors and really insure that nothing is in your way or will be in your way.

Take your foot off the brake.

Check your rear-view mirror again.

Press the gas pedal very slowly.

Immediately find out what the speed limit is and don't exceed it.

Drive.

Pull into your destination when it's time to park.

Press and hold the brakes. Now put the stick into P.

Activate the parking brake.

Turn car off.

sungear wrote: »

...the quick flash of the reverse lights as they pass R to re-select D being the tell-tale sign.

You would have had to gone to Park to obtain that result

A small error on my part but the point remaims the same. All those cars which display a small flash of the reverse lights must have been unnecessarily taken out of Drive.

sungear wrote:

I cant say I claim to have read all vehicle manuals, but have confirmed that with one bus driver I know as they said it was standard practice to put into N when stopped for safety reasons, but also a few of their smaller local buses (IMPS) went on fire as they were left in D. Ie overheated

I've been driving all sorts of buses for years and I have never seen or heard of a driver putting an automatic bus into N at lights etc.

The only time I would select N in a bus is if I had to leave it momentarliy. (PS - There is usually no Park on a bus).

I wouldn't sit in gear with the clutch down in a manual for any length of time??

Nor would I as it's a totally different system.

sungear wrote:

"As has been said, the parking brake (handbrake) should be applied during lighting up hours to avoid inconvienence to the driver behind."

I never heard that the handbrake should be applied differently during day or night hours other than here so I think thats someones incorrect assumption, maybe Brian could clarify if there is a difference in handbrake operation re time of day??

To avoid blinding the driver behind. Have you never been stopped at lights and found the brake lights of the car in front to be sore on the eyes, particularly after a long day at work.

copacetic wrote: »

N on an auto is purely there for car washes and towing.

The only time my car goes into neutral is at those 'pull through' car washes!

sungear

I dont know what your problem is, but if I post a thread to ask for opinion or clarification and I happen to dissagree with some of the responses doesn't mean I should pretend otherwise.
And it doesn't mean u have any right to have a go at me if you dissagree with me,
I stated the reasons why I dissagreed, whats your answer?

"Leave the thing in blooody drive"
If it didnt need N it wouldnt have it, its not a merc or audi and obviously they dont need them as they are designed out, by that rational when Neutral was in it had to have a purpose, thats why its there.
whats your problem?

copacetic

sungear wrote: »

I dont know what your problem is, but if I post a thread to ask for opinion or clarification and I happen to dissagree with some of the responses doesn't mean I should pretend otherwise.
And it doesn't mean u have any right to have a go at me if you dissagree with me,
I stated the reasons why I dissagreed, whats your answer?

"Leave the thing in blooody drive"
If it didnt need N it wouldnt have it, its not a merc or audi and obviously they dont need them as they are designed out, by that rational when Neutral was in it had to have a purpose, thats why its there.
whats your problem?

Mercs and audi still have N. As I pointed out it is for car washes and towing, it is the only setting that allows the car to roll.

My answer to your 'reasons' is that you appear to totally misunderstand how automatics work. Your 'reasons' are irrantional ramblings.

sungear

Wishbone, Im disputing Copa coming on and having a go?
Instead of coming up with some facts

Yes I have experienced people with the footbrake on, its not supposed to be, its annoying but they're not supposed to be doing it.

I dont think I suggest there was P in buses, I'm mentioning the driver I know says they were supposed to put it in N when stopped for safety reasons.

Wishbone Ash

OK lads, calm down - no need to get emotional.

sungear - why not use the quote function - it will save you typing and looks clearer.

Re: Neutral has to be there for going from forward to reverse. Push button autos won't go into reverse unless N has been selected and vice versa.

It also necessary for some garage related work.

copacetic

sungear wrote: »

Wishbone, Im disputing Copa coming on and having a go?
Instead of coming up with some facts

Yes I have experienced people with the footbrake on, its not supposed to be, its annoying but they're not supposed to be doing it.

I dont think I suggest there was P in buses, I'm mentioning the driver I know says they were supposed to put it in N when stopped for safety reasons.

oh ffs.

Automatics are DESIGNED to be left in drive. As I said in my first post, and as it says in the manual of my car and the audi and merc autos that I have driven. FACT!

(I can't believe I had to do that)

sungear

I understand how automatics and manuals work to the extent that a person that doesnt strip them down to repair, which is more than most so how do you figure irrational ramblings?

Whats your technical background as you're such an expert?

brian076

copacetic wrote: »

I did, why are you trying to make her drive it like a manual?

You said you would treat it like a manual. Why on earth would anyone with any sense buy/drive an auto and do that. Do you really think that is what they are designed for?

A lot of newer autos don't even had a handbrake anymore. Eg Mercedes have a foot operated 'parking brake' an audi have an elctronic 'parking brake'.

I hope she is a boardsie and sees this thread and tells you were to stick it the next time you try and make her drive her car the totally wrong way.

What about the Prius (or maybe you don't consider this to be an automatic), when you stop and press the handbrake, which is a button on the dash, it puts it directly into neutral. So you can either do this or keep it in D with the footbrake on

sungear

Fair enough wishbone, N to go to reverse, I wasn't thinking on that lines you are correct. But my initial query was regarding what the official line for the test as my GF was getting conflicting info wether to be in N, D foot on brake or handbrake not the technical aspect really, as in wether its possible or not? I know you can sit in N, D I still think its not the safest to sit for a while in D especially without the handbrake on

Wishbone Ash

sungear wrote: »

Wishbone, Im disputing Copa coming on and having a go?
Instead of coming up with some facts

You're fairly new around here. One thing you have to learn is that you have to have a thick skin and ignore what offends you or use the report button.. People disagree and get wound up but it not personal. Just be glad you didn't post the thread in the general Motors Forum!

sungear wrote:

I dont think I suggest there was P in buses, I'm mentioning the driver I know says they were supposed to put it in N when stopped for safety reasons.

I added that just to fend off the possible queries asking why I wouldn't put a bus into P if I was leaving it. I wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting it.

samhail

perhaps when your gf was told to hit the brake, might the car have been in park ? where by you need to engage the brake to change the gears out of park --> drive

copacetic

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You're fairly new around here. One thing you have to learn is that you have to have a thick skin and ignore what offends you or use the report button.. People disagree and get wound up but it not personal. Just be glad you didn't post the thread in the general Motors Forum!

Jeepers, never noticed this was learning to drive, sorry Wish. I thought I was doing the guy a favour before he really got hammered!

C'mon, move it to Motors for the lulz!!

sungear

P no :pac: shes bad but not that bad

Prius, never been in one, I don't know, was leaning towards a Auris D D got auto for her but still capable of manual for me

sungear

Yes I am quite new here, I didn't guess I'd be slated if I dissagreed with people?

Alanstrainor

brian076 wrote: »

What about the Prius (or maybe you don't consider this to be an automatic), when you stop and press the handbrake, which is a button on the dash, it puts it directly into neutral. So you can either do this or keep it in D with the footbrake on

Leaving the car in Drive while stopped, does burn more fuel, so i presume, seeing the kind of car the prius is, it's trying to save on petrol usage. But there's also the fact that the prius only uses the elctric motor at low/creeping speeds, hence putting the petrol engine into neutral. But i'm going way off topic here...

brian076

copacetic wrote: »

I did, why are you trying to make her drive it like a manual?

You said you would treat it like a manual. Why on earth would anyone with any sense buy/drive an auto and do that. Do you really think that is what they are designed for?

A lot of newer autos don't even had a handbrake anymore. Eg Mercedes have a foot operated 'parking brake' an audi have an elctronic 'parking brake'.

I hope she is a boardsie and sees this thread and tells you were to stick it the next time you try and make her drive her car the totally wrong way.

What about the Toyota Prius. When you stop and press the handbrake button on the dash, it goes straight into N. The only alternative is to keep it in D with the footbrake pressed.

sungear

Maybe toyota are already onto what Im thinking about Brian
They must be doing it in the Prius for a reason,
Mainly I wanted to get clarification as there were a few opinions on what to do at the lights, re handbrake, foorbrake, N ,D and the odd one to me of pressing brake before taking off from lights, she's going to be doing the test in auto.

I just dont feel it says whats expected from the RSA? right there the ones that do the rules? what do they expect for the test?

sungear

I meant a few opinions from different driving instructors, some say to do what the other tells her not to do?

Wishbone Ash

sungear wrote: »

right there the ones that do the rules? what do they expect for the test?

Leave it in D.

Regardless of the opinions given here, I think it makes the driver look more composed rather than constantly moving the gearstick, appling parking brake etc.

By the way sungear, is your GF aware that, if she passes in an auto, she can only apply for a restricted (code 78) licence?

If she wishes to drive a manual, she'll have to get another Learner Permit and be accompanied etc.

brian076

As I said earlier it doesn't really matter as far as the test is concerned. If she's stopped at lights for a while and puts it in N, or if she leaves it in D either with the handbrake on or holding it on the the footbrake, she won't receive a mark either way. Maybe that says more about the standard of our driving test, but tell her not to worry

sungear

Well aware, she couldnt manage to change gears and observe at the same time,it just wasnt natural for her, think she scared the hell out of a few instructors in their cars already and still does in her auto, this way is much easier for her, maybe in the future after she gets used to being on the road she could do lessons and test for manual licence. get over this hurdle first.

sungear

Ok Thanks Brian, and all for opinions one way or the other.

Wishbone Ash

copacetic wrote: »

Jeepers, never noticed this was learning to drive, sorry Wish. I thought I was doing the guy a favour before he really got hammered!

C'mon, move it to Motors for the lulz!!

Ah no, that would be cruel!

RedzDrivingScho

Hi Sungear.....

After reading your post here's my tupence worth to add to the confusion......

I'm assuming you're asking the question from a safety point of view...or the correct procedure to adopt......

My understanding is an automatic's benefit is that it has auomatic gear selection for when the car is going forward and selects the correct gear for the speed and so on......the D in an automatic is not a panacea for all driving situations and all talk about torque convertors and pressure plates and whatever is not really relevant to the question asked....

When stopped at a trafic lights for example the safest thing is to secure the car with the handbrake and remove the driving force by putting it into neutral.....you would do it in a manual...no difference....when moving off most autos wont go into drive until the brake is pressed so press the brake....selct D and then release the handbrake then footbrake when you want to move off......which is the same as a manual.....select first gear, prepare the car and then release the handbrake......

My 7 series has a foot parking brake and it's a pain to be applying it all the time so I use the P on the selector and do the same routine as previous when moving off.......I think your concerns about roll back are unnecessary as you will be holding the car on the footbrake until you move.

This is what i do and I feel it's the safest thing for me........I could never accept it's safer to sit at lights with just the footbrake securing the car.

Hope that helps.....

ztoical

sungear wrote: »

All,
I'm a bit pissed as she wont take free lessons as she refuses to take constructive criticism but she insists on paying 40 euro to drive her own car to listen to some people who it seems to me are not professional/know what the hell they are talking about

Perhaps she feels more comfortable taking lessons from them. It can be very hard to take driving lessons from a relative/other half/close friend regardless of how good or bad a driver they may be. Most learner drivers are told not to take "free driving lessons" from their parents and the same could be said for girlfriends/boyfriends getting lessons from their other half. Now maybe the intstructors don't know what they are taking about but thats for your girlfriend to decide. You might think your offering constructive criticism but your girlfriend might just see it as criticism and learning to drive can be stressful enough without someone sitting beside you commenting on everything you do. I had to ban my dad from my car after one to many "helpful comments".

From the replies on this thread it seems to be very much open to interpretation as to what the correct thing to do is so it could be your right and the instructor is right but for your girlfriend let her stick with the instructor if that is what she wants as they will be the ones getting her ready for her test.

sungear

Redz
I appreciate the reply,
I was told by instructors/relative never foot on brake to secure as if you're shunted head will go down and foot up and of you'll go into traffic/pedestrians or whatever, plus I think any tired/experienced/inexperienced/ driver could get distracted and take foot off, anyway I guess everyone has their opinions.
I'd like if it was clarified somewhere officially exactly what was required so there would be no ambiguity.

Ztoical
I agree she probably is better off with an instructor but she also says to me, "ohh my instructor says that too".
I had a relative give me the basics then went the instructor route years back when starting out myself, looking back I had some variable instructors but did get a really good one, did few lessons and practiced myself (as it was allowed back then) I think the instructor route is better as it eliminates the chance of picking up bad habits of a relative who may also have learned from a relative.
I still think lessons too expensive, autos are rarer and one of the schools only allows 2 hour lessons.You need to get out there and do some driving practice yourself at times, practice what you learned from instructor understand what you're doing and why, if it goes wrong how to correct it, learn and not re-do the same error.
Unfortunately I think the blanket ban on learners is more knee jerk solution rather than well thought out and that limits things.