The Psychological Society of Ireland

axer

Hi,

Why is it so hard to get recognised as a psychologist in Ireland in order to work here?

My German girlfriend (26) is a qualified psychologist working in a public hospital in Germany (she deals with children with acute psychological problems and helps those dealing with chronic illnesses) but in order for her to work here she needs to get the ok from the PSI with an application fee of 183 euro which is non-refundable if they decide not to recognise her qualification.

My girlfriend does not hold a post grad since she is already specialised in rehabilitation psychology via a 4 year degree thus straight away fails the first "guideline" of the PSI i.e. to have a post-graduate qualification.

I have contacted the department of health and children who passed me onto the PSI (basically the department seem to not want to have anything to do with it). I then contact the PSI who would not give any information other than fill out x form and pay your money and then you will know.

My understanding is it is easier to get recognised to work as a doctor or a nurse in Ireland where you can actually kill someone by mistake than it is to get recognised to work in psychology.

Sorry for the rant its just that there is supposed to be free movement of labour in europe and this seems to be a roadblock on that road.

Does anyone know are the guidelines really just guidelines or are they pretty much requirements?

I just feel like the girlfriend would be paying 183 euro only to be told "no" straight away simply because she doesn't have a post grad thus wasting money on nothing.

Thanks.

Valmont

I completely agree OP. The PSI have some pointlessly stringent requirements for membership. For example, students must have the signatures of two PSI post graduate members in order to apply; this is just red tape that puts students off from applying. That said there are a good few successful psychologists working and living in Ireland that aren't members of the PSI so it isn't like it can harm one's career too much. All this and the mess of statutory regulation still hasn't been cleared up completely. Maybe they copy their bureaucratic processes from Kafka novels? The PSI is still growing and developing however, and hopefully some of these issues will be cleared up in the future.

eth0_

OP - she could apply for recognition from the BPS?
If your qualification is recognised by the BPS then it is, in turn, recognised by the PSI. I don't think she'd need a UK address to apply for this, as I was a student member of the BPS while living in Dublin.

BeanieBaby

Your girlfriend should apply to the BPS and then apply for conditional registration with the PSI. She should do this asap as I believe the rules are changing in April of this year. Having been lax about my registrations, and entitled to BPS membership, I how have to get my documentation sorted out fairly quickly.

tolteq

I found it hard to get work after i finished my degree. i guess its cos we are a small country and therefore u must be qualified to the hilt

taztastic

I'm under UK rules and regulations at the moment - the coming of compulsory registration under the Health Professionals Council is going to be a major shift and I would really recommend getting signed up with your professional body. I'd contact the BPS and just ask that if (when) regulation comes in here will they be working with Irish authorities.

On a seperate issue I'm looking at the fees for the PSI. What is going on? They're massive and for someone like me still on a bursary funding and in sterling I really don't see how I can afford it. It just seems too much.

JuliusCaesar

HI, yes they are high - justified by "well, solicitors and architects and engineers professional society fees are high". And the salaries of most qualified psychs working in the HSE are not to be sneezed at. I think with the small membership base they need a largish income to rent offices/employ staff/give us back as much as they do :rolleyes: But there are reductions if you are a student or work part-time.

LilMrsDahamsta

The PSI fees have gone crazy. I've been a member since 2000, but at this stage I'm seriously considering letting it lapse. I'm still a post-grad student, working part-time, but because it's more than three years since I graduated they want the full fee from me. I had more money in those first two years when I had a studentship than I have now!

In terms of value, the £110STG I pay the BPS is much better spent than the €260 to the PSI. The online presence/resources are incomparable, and the BPS journals are of far higher quality. I also don't think the PSI have made significant progress in promoting psychology as a profession in Ireland, and the BPS comparison does not flatter their efforts in this regard.

taztastic

LilMrsDahamsta wrote: »

In terms of value, the £110STG I pay the BPS is much better spent than the €260 to the PSI. The online presence/resources are incomparable, and the BPS journals are of far higher quality. I also don't think the PSI have made significant progress in promoting psychology as a profession in Ireland, and the BPS comparison does not flatter their efforts in this regard.

I think you have really phrased that perfectly. I understand the position of the PSI - small membership pool etc. But why are they not focusing on enticing us to join. Cutting costs is always sensible but at a certain point they are just making it unattractive to join. I am also a BPS and ACAMH member and all the conferences and lectures (several put on for nothing by the BPS) put on along with the publications means that if I have to cut costs it is the PSI that is looking least desirable.
Perhaps now is the time the PSI needs to decide what way it is going - cheaper fees but with little to attract members or striving to meet the standards set by other professional bodies with a higher ceiling on full or chartered membership.

cathy01

what are the benefits of joining.Am I correct in saying its a self regulated body.

Kooli

axer wrote: »

Hi,



My girlfriend does not hold a post grad since she is already specialised in rehabilitation psychology via a 4 year degree thus straight away fails the first "guideline" of the PSI i.e. to have a post-graduate qualification.


Thanks.

My understanding is that she is on a par with people in Ireland who have completed a four year psychology degree - i.e. they could not work as a 'psychologist' either. You can't call yourself a psychologist in Ireland without a postgrad, and to be honest that makes sense to me! I presume she would get the same response if she tried the BPS, but I don't know

taztastic

cathy01 wrote: »

what are the benefits of joining.Am I correct in saying its a self regulated body.

It very much depends on what level you join as.
For all members you have access to publications online (suppliment for paper versions) which includes information on upcoming talks and conferences and often reduced rates for attending.
It also helps when going for jobs or postgrad since it shows your commitment and interest.
You also sign up to abide by their code of ethics and subject to disciplinary positions
As a chartered member you must provide evidence of ongoing cpd on a yearly basis which goes toward continued membership.

axer

Kooli wrote: »

My understanding is that she is on a par with people in Ireland who have completed a four year psychology degree - i.e. they could not work as a 'psychologist' either. You can't call yourself a psychologist in Ireland without a postgrad, and to be honest that makes sense to me! I presume she would get the same response if she tried the BPS, but I don't know

But psychology students in Ireland are not specialised after a 4 year degree here. They only study general psychology and do not specialise until they do a postgrad.

One problem is there is no such pay grade as a rehabilitation psychologist here which is strange. They seem to use clinical psychologists for rehabilitation here when a rehabilitation psychologist would be more suitable.

The main problem is that the Department of health and children seem to give the PSI the run of the show so that they can make up any rules they like resulting in what I can only assume is a nice cash cow (183 euro non-refundable fee to apply and they will not answer any questions or help beforehand - what is the 183 euro for then?). The rules seem very exact which I presume fit nicely with the courses the Irish students take.

My girlfriend was a psychologist in a public hospital in Germany (until she finished up recently to move to Ireland). So much for free movement of labour in europe.

Myksyk

axer wrote: »

They seem to use clinical psychologists for rehabilitation here when a rehabilitation psychologist would be more suitable.

Why? Clinical Psychologists go through a substantially more rigorous training which amounts on average to about 8 years (it can be as high as 10-11). Their experience and training in rehab related areas like disability is more substantial, their experience with clients in a broad range of health related areas before embarking on a professional career is significantly greater and often includes specialisation in relevant areas like physical disability and neuropsychology, their research background is usually at both masters and doctoral level, their supervision by professional psychologists while training is greater, their academic input in all areas ranges over at least twice the timeframe. The committment in Ireland to the employment of Clinical Psychologists in the Health Service is a reflection of a long process of deliberately advocating for highly trained and highly qualified psychology personnel.

kitkat.3b4t

Why do psychologists need up to 10 years training before they are competent to work. If you compare other similiar professions eg OTs, Social Workers, Psychotherapists, Drug Counsellors, Community Workers, all these work with vunrable people in a rehabitative capacity yet they are competent much quicker. Do psychologists need more training because they come from middle class backgrounds and they have very little experience of the problems those from other backgrounds face?

Myksyk

kitkat.3b4t wrote: »

Do psychologists need more training because they come from middle class backgrounds and they have very little experience of the problems those from other backgrounds face?

:rolleyes:

Yes. All psychologists are from the middle classes and none of them have any experience of psychological problems because we know middle class people don't have any problems. That's right, middle class people don't have children with disabilities or learning difficulties, they don't have anxiety, depression or psychiatric disorders, no marital problems or family difficulties either, and of course no abuse issues, no mental health problems at all; when they get old they don't have any age-related problems, etc etc etc ..............

Actually, I'm sorry for the sarcasm ... I couldn't help myself. It's almost impossible not to respond sharply to such a profoundly facile statement.

The answer to your question of course has nothing to do with class. Firstly clinical training is to Doctoral level and necessitates longer training as a result. Unlike the other professions you mention, it places a heavy emphasis on research, one of the key skills of clinical psychologists, which also demands more time in training. It necessitates training at a high level across a broad range of areas (learning disability, mental health, children and adolescent work, older adult and specialist areas) requiring 6 month placements in all these areas. Part of the reason it takes a long time is that BEFORE people get on training they usually have supplemented their primary degree with further research/academic work like a Masters or they have spent time gaining practical experience in one of the areas mentioned above. The main reason for this extra work is that it is hard to get on these courses ... there is fierce competition and people get as much under their belt as they can to give them an edge. While this is strictly speaking not essential to the training it is not a bad thing in itself. The end result are professionals with significant skills and knowledge across a broad spectrum of clinical areas. Should someone need to send their child to a psychologist for assessment around complex disability issues when they are 3 years old I'm guessing they won't mind that the person they are sending them to has had extensive training, is familiar with and undertands the research in relation to their child's problems, has significant training in a wide range of assessment and has been supervised over a long period in a variety of relevant interventions. I'm also pretty sure thay won't wish they had LESS training ... or for that matter, I'm confident that they won't mind what 'class' they belong to.

axer

Myksyk wrote: »

Clinical Psychologists go through a substantially more rigorous training which amounts on average to about 8 years (it can be as high as 10-11).

Exactly my point. They also start on something like 60k a year when something like a specialised rehabilitation psychologist can do many jobs e.g. psychologist in a rehab centre, fine for a lower salary.

It is not always necessary to have a such a highly trained psychologist for many jobs.

Myksyk

What is their salary here in Ireland?

cathy01

[ Do psychologists need more training because they come from middle class backgrounds and they have very little experience of the problems those from other backgrounds face?[/QUOTE]

A bit over the top there, dont you think.You cant paint everyone with the same brush.
Not nice:mad:

kitkat.3b4t

Of course middle class people experience psychiatric problems too. However the majority of clients seen by psychologists come from poorer backgrounds.

The lenghty training and career structure to become a psychologist excludes people from lower socio-economic backgrounds. This results in a substantial difference between psychologists and their clients regarding social background. This can have a significant effect when professionals like psychologists are interviening in behavioural and social areas.

The training and career structure for psychologists favours younger middle class people because of the lenght of time it takes to become qualified and the associated costs.

There is no reason why psychologists can't specialize at undergraduate level. A lot of people know early on which area they want to work in eg with children, disability, rehabilitation, counselling etc. This could be followed by experiential learning in an appropriate setting. This would mean having more specialized applied psychology courses. I know the argument is that psychologists cover all areas, but if you just want to specialize in one, it is a waste of time covering everything.

A wider socio-economic mix would enrich the profession of psychologist, but this will never happen until the career structure changes, to make it more accessable for people from lower socio-economic groups.

axer

Myksyk wrote: »

What is their salary here in Ireland?

There is no pay grade for rehabilitation psychologist in Ireland (in public hospitals that is) since there are currently no rehabilitation psychology courses here. I think I read on the PSI's website that they are/were trying to bring one in.

Valmont

kitkat.3b4t wrote: »

A wider socio-economic mix would enrich the profession of psychologist, but this will never happen until the career structure changes, to make it more accessable for people from lower socio-economic groups.

Unfortunately we don't live in a Marxist paradise so you're just splitting hairs here. Your argument could apply to any professional career, law, business, medicine etc...

You just seem annoyed that there aren't many working class psychologists but can you actually demonstrate that this deficit adversely affects those patients with whom a middle class psychologist works?

Myksyk

kitkat.3b4t wrote: »

However the majority of clients seen by psychologists come from poorer backgrounds.

On what do you base this assertion?

Myksyk

axer wrote: »

There is no pay grade for rehabilitation psychologist in Ireland (in public hospitals that is) since there are currently no rehabilitation psychology courses here.

You are correct. So there is actually no comparison to be made between the pay grades as you suggest.

axer

Myksyk wrote: »

You are correct. So there is actually no comparison to be made between the pay grades as you suggest.

The pay grade would be approximately 30-40k starting which is a big difference. I can tell you for sure they would be paid less than a clinical psychologist as I said previously.

Myksyk

I'm sorry axer but you just can't compare European salaries with Irish. That would be an extremely unlikely starting salary as social care workers (not social workers) amongst a host of other health workers would get more than that, not to mention trainee clinical psychologists. Completely unqualified support workers start at €28k so I'm not sure you're aware of the salary grades generally in the Irish Health Service. It is far more likely that they would seek parity with Educational, Clinical and Counselling Psychologists.

axer

Myksyk wrote: »

I'm sorry axer but you just can't compare European salaries with Irish. That would be an extremely unlikely starting salary as social care workers (not social workers) amongst a host of other health workers would get more than that, not to mention trainee clinical psychologists. Completely unqualified support workers start at €28k so I'm not sure you're aware of the salary grades generally in the Irish Health Service. It is far more likely that they would seek parity with Educational, Clinical and Counselling Psychologists.

http://www.hsea.ie//Pay%20And%20Conditions/08.09.01.Sept08%20Pay%20Scales.xls
PSYCHOLOGIST, TRAINEE CLINICAL €37,850

That is more likely what they could seek parity with. If a rehabilitation psychologist is qualified after 4 years then they can hardly seek to be paid the same as a clinical psychologist etc. You don't need that much training for many of the jobs that clinical psychologists are working in.

BTW I am not comparing with europe. In Germany for instance a rehab psychologist would get about 25k per year.

kitkat.3b4t

Myksyk wrote: »

On what do you base this assertion?

The link between poverty and health problems, both mental and physical are well established. I imagine people working in community mental health and education will have first hand experience of this.

Here are a number of articles which discuss this point but there are many more:

‘Low Socioeconomic Status and Mental Disorders: A Longitudinal Study of Selection and Causation during Young Adulthood’. ajs Volume 104 Number 4 (January 1999): 1096–131

‘Poverty, social inequality and mental health’. Advances in Psychiatric Treatment (2004) 10: 216-224

Government of Ireland (2003) National Action Plan against Poverty and Social Exclusion 2003-2005,
Dublin: The Stationery Office

The Institute of Public Health in Ireland (2001) Inequalities in Mortality 1989-1998: A Report on All-
Ireland Mortality Data, Dublin: The Institute of Public Health in Ireland, p. 11.

Cullen, G. (2002) Report on Perinatal Statistics 1999, Dublin, ESRI and the Department of Health and
Children

Barry, J. et al. (2001) Inequalities in Health in Ireland – Hard Facts, Dublin: Department of Community
Health and General Practice, Trinity College Dublin

Myksyk

We'll have to agree to disagree. Basically, i feel we should be moving away, as fast as possible, from assuming we get competent scientist-practitioners after a basic degree and a year's specialisation. I know it's done in other countries and it's a mistake. In particular it undermines the very heart of professional psychology by immediately diluting or even getting rid of the research side of professional competence as well as the comprehensive 'developmental span' approach to training. Both are very serious mistakes in my opinion and calls to go in that direction should be resisted by the PSI. It happened in the States and led to the fracturing and eventual split of the American Psychological Society.

Myksyk

kitkat.3b4t wrote: »

The link between poverty and health problems, both mental and physical are well established. I imagine people working in community mental health and education will have first hand experience of this.

Here are a number of articles which discuss this point but there are many more:

‘Low Socioeconomic Status and Mental Disorders: A Longitudinal Study of Selection and Causation during Young Adulthood’. ajs Volume 104 Number 4 (January 1999): 1096–131

‘Poverty, social inequality and mental health’. Advances in Psychiatric Treatment (2004) 10: 216-224

Government of Ireland (2003) National Action Plan against Poverty and Social Exclusion 2003-2005,
Dublin: The Stationery Office

The Institute of Public Health in Ireland (2001) Inequalities in Mortality 1989-1998: A Report on All-
Ireland Mortality Data, Dublin: The Institute of Public Health in Ireland, p. 11.

Cullen, G. (2002) Report on Perinatal Statistics 1999, Dublin, ESRI and the Department of Health and
Children

Barry, J. et al. (2001) Inequalities in Health in Ireland – Hard Facts, Dublin: Department of Community
Health and General Practice, Trinity College Dublin

I've worked as a psychologist in mental health for 10 years in the past and you are correct to some degree about mental health ... but even here there is a very broad class dispersion in the client base.

However, your initial point that the majority of clients seen by psychologists come from poorer backgrounds remains incorrect. This is because the majority of Clinical Psychologists do not work in mental health. In fact a large majority of Clinical psychologists work in Disabilities and Child and Adolescent services. Generally less than a quarter work in mental health. The majority by quite some margin work in disabilties (I have worked in this area for the last 8 years) and there is no class disparity here.

axer

Myksyk wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. Basically, i feel we should be moving away, as fast as possible, from assuming we get competent scientist-practitioners after a basic degree and a year's specialisation. I know it's done in other countries and it's a mistake. In particular it undermines the very heart of professional psychology by immediately diluting or even getting rid of the research side of professional competence as well as the comprehensive 'developmental span' approach to training. Both are very serious mistakes in my opinion and calls to go in that direction should be resisted by the PSI. It happened in the States and led to the fracturing and eventual split of the American Psychological Society.

Let the clinical psychologists work in the higher fields where their skills are necessary and in research but many clinical psychologists are working in jobs for which they are way over qualified which is a waste for the psychologist and a waste of money for the employer (and the government).