Greens: The Biggest threat Ireland faces today

jochenstacker

The Greens.
On the announcement that Dell is to cut almost 2000 jobs:
To increase Irelands attractiveness to US investors (too lazy to look in Europe, sadly a disease that has afflicted the government for some time now), Ireland must become greener.
I.e. carbon tax on everything.
Yeah, that'll work.
The Greens have proven themselves to be deluded b*stards who now dance around the flaming ruins of Irelands economy laughing and jeering.
Only once we're back in the 19th century and no one has a car or central heating and the last of the foreign devils (investors) have been chased from our green shores, will they be happy.
We'll be living in straw lined holes in the ground with the only source of energy being our own feces and drive bicycles made from cabbage.
The Greens and FF (and any other party in existence in Ireland today) only care to line their own pockets and their cronies ("consultants").
The government only use the greens to come up with excuses to gouge us for more taxes, without there ever being a tangible return.
So, in short: the government, along with their pawns the greens, are the gravest threat the country faces today, nothing, from oil supplies running out to international terrorism, is anywhere near as dangerous.


This post was written in a bit of a temper. Now I've gathered my thoughts, here is some additional stuff:

Nope, this is not a leftist, communist thread at all.
Running a country should have to have the right balance between socialist agendas (caring for the sick and elderly and generally vulnerable) and hard nosed business.
Problem is that the government seems to be filled with cronies, liars, conmen and people generally concerned only with pulling their friends and relatives on board.
This then results in frankly brain-dead and retarded ideas such as transferring all rail-freight onto the roads because "there's no profit in it".
Not building a rail-link to the airport for the same reason and generally not opening rail lines that are BADLY needed, such as Limerick to Shannon and Galway. (if that one ever opens I will EAT MY SHOES!).
And of course just generally providing public transport that makes sense, links up and has integrated ticketing that serves another purpose than making more cronies rich.
Of course not, there isn't a single country in the free world that makes money on it's public transport or rail freight, these things exist to provide a service to the public and keep millions of tons of freights of our "excellent" roadwork. And, of course, the fact that keeping thousands of people and tons of freight of the road will prevent damage that will cost 4 times as much to fix than it would cost to provide these services in the first place.
Healthcare should be all about prevention in the first place, providing screening for everyone for many diseases that will cost much more later on when it's too late to do anything about them.
Many experts have been screaming it for the past 10 years:
ireland is pricing itself out of the market and all foreign companies will eventually run screaming out of here.
But everyone was too busy gouging as much money for themselves to listen.
It even pains me to say it, but forward planning is not one of the strong points of the government and that means everyone who has been in power for the past 10-15 years or longer.

But what really makes me mad is the fact that IRELAND DESERVES BETTER!
There is no shortage of smart people who could do a better job running this country. Of course, a howlermonkey in the latest stages of insanity brought on by Syphilis could do a better job running this country.
There are bits of potatoe peel floating down the Liffey that could do a better job at running this country.
But more importantly: There are scores of brilliant people that could do an infinitely better job than the current rabble of crooks, liars, thieves and conmen and women. (Where's MY €40k?)

One of my theories is that anyone who was any good had to leave Ireland in the 70's and 80's, leaving behind people whose only skill was to have sufficient pull.
They have created for themselves an ivory tower from which they cannot be expelled.
If we want to save Ireland it is vital to pull down the excisting power structure ENTIRELY and replace the rot with something that has been planned well for a change.
There is hope, but it is not to be found within the government.

And the Greens are the worst, because, like the PD's they have been immediatly absorbed into the FF machine and will end up on the other side
looking like some Greens that have been eaten once already.

Timans

jochenstacker wrote: »

The Greens.
On the announcement that Dell is to cut almost 2000 jobs:
To increase Irelands attractiveness to US investors (too lazy to look in Europe, sadly a disease that has afflicted the government for some time now), Ireland must become greener.
I.e. carbon tax on everything.
Yeah, that'll work.
The Greens have proven themselves to be deluded b*stards who now dance around the flaming ruins of Irelands economy laughing and jeering.
Only once we're back in the 19th century and no one has a car or central heating and the last of the foreign devils (investors) have been chased from our green shores, will they be happy.
We'll be living in straw lined holes in the ground with the only source of energy being our own feces and drive bicycles made from cabbage.
The Greens and FF (and any other party in existence in Ireland today) only care to line their own pockets and their cronies ("consultants").
The government only use the greens to come up with excuses to gouge us for more taxes, without there ever being a tangible return.
So, in short: the government, along with their pawns the greens, are the gravest threat the country faces today, nothing, from oil supplies running out to international terrorism, is anywhere near as dangerous.

I don't agree with anything you have just said but my god, that post was genius.

P Davis

jochenstacker wrote: »

The Greens.
On the announcement that Dell is to cut almost 2000 jobs:
To increase Irelands attractiveness to US investors (too lazy to look in Europe, sadly a disease that has afflicted the government for some time now), Ireland must become greener.
I.e. carbon tax on everything.
Yeah, that'll work.
The Greens have proven themselves to be deluded b*stards who now dance around the flaming ruins of Irelands economy laughing and jeering.
Only once we're back in the 19th century and no one has a car or central heating and the last of the foreign devils (investors) have been chased from our green shores, will they be happy.
We'll be living in straw lined holes in the ground with the only source of energy being our own feces and drive bicycles made from cabbage.
The Greens and FF (and any other party in existence in Ireland today) only care to line their own pockets and their cronies ("consultants").
The government only use the greens to come up with excuses to gouge us for more taxes, without there ever being a tangible return.
So, in short: the government, along with their pawns the greens, are the gravest threat the country faces today, nothing, from oil supplies running out to international terrorism, is anywhere near as dangerous.

here here and bravo to you my good man !

AlekSmart

Bicycles made from cabbage....Thats IT !!!
Have you approached the IDA for a research grant for this...? Cos you better do it quick-sharp before those damn Poles get there first !!!!

Must be a contestant for Post of the Year 2009

ejmaztec

It's the greed agenda not the green agenda that's laid waste to the Irish economy. I think there's been a typo.

piby

Timans wrote: »

I don't agree with anything you have just said but my god, that post was genius.

+1

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Bicycles made from cabbage....Thats IT !!!
Have you approached the IDA for a research grant for this...? Cos you better do it quick-sharp before those damn Poles get there first !!!!

Must be a contestant for Post of the Year 2009

Cabbage? Whats wrong with the greatest ever Irish invention...the Spud.

ionix5891

Nodin wrote: »

Cabbage? Whats wrong with the greatest ever Irish invention...the Spud.

wasn't potato imported from south America?

Capt'n Midnight

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's the greed agenda not the green agenda that's laid waste to the Irish economy. I think there's been a typo.

agree


have you checked up on Dell to see how green they are ?

we import over 100% of our fuel needs ( if you take into account the NI's crossing over for cheap petrol ) If russia and the ukraine have another hissy fit we're screwed

on the other hand we do have enough wind / wave power and the best climate in europe to grow coppice/other biomass so that we should be an exporter of power , and an interconnector to the UK would mean we could rely on them during the few days a year we get good weather.


every month during the peak of the boom we were importing enough SUV's to offset all the windpower

Économiste Monétaire

Discover Pigouvian taxes.

Nodin

ionix5891 wrote: »

wasn't potato imported from south America?

Revisionist lies.

ionix5891

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

agree


have you checked up on Dell to see how green they are ?

we import over 100% of our fuel needs ( if you take into account the NI's crossing over for cheap petrol ) If russia and the ukraine have another hissy fit we're screwed

on the other hand we do have enough wind / wave power and the best climate in europe to grow coppice/other biomass so that we should be an exporter of power , and an interconnector to the UK would mean we could rely on them during the few days a year we get good weather.


every month during the peak of the boom we were importing enough SUV's to offset all the windpower

theres no interconnector to the UK, its been on the plans since forever


see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Interconnector

and
http://www.interconnector.ie/?


planned capacity of only 500MW, Ireland uses about 10x times that during peak times

I agree we need more windpower but we have no way of storing the energy or transporting it to EU when the wind blows

You cant run a factory or a hospital or a datacenter on windpower as it doesnt provide a reliable baseload and the Grid in Ireland is currently fairly sucky, main problem with windfarms is not building them but connecting them up and wind not blowing when you need it most

Darsad

Great Post agree 110 %
I for one will actively campaign against the Greens in the next local , Eu and general elections. This will include removing and returning all their posters and flyers i can get a hold of, unless of course they are made of recycled cabbage which is what Gormless normally spouts !!CLOWNS !!!

CCCP^

I thought this was some kind of Communist threat from Greenland ffs

Danuogma

Come the next election the Greens will get wiped out like the PDs did. I won't shed a tear. That said, all the other sideshow freaks are every bit as clueless.

Liam Byrne

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's the greed agenda not the green agenda that's laid waste to the Irish economy. I think there's been a typo.

I've no problem with the overal aim to stop us polluting the planet, but I do have a problem with our own "Green Party", who abandon some of their key policies the moment they're in the door, and then introduce other ones that do nothing except raise the cost of living here and line the Government's pockets

e.g. a "green" parking space tax of €200 to discourage people from driving to work.

WE DON'T HAVE A DECENT PUBLIC TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE OUTSIDE OF DUBLIN, FFS! How is the average Joe Soap going to get to work ?

Introduce the alternatives FIRST, and THEN tax people if they don't use them.

And whatever about the pros and cons of private transport, most of the pollution in this country is because cars are stuck in crazy traffic in cities most of the time! Removing the traffic jams and letting people actually drive from A to B would actually IMPROVE matters!

Of course, so would actually building housing estates and business parks near each other, rather than putting massive retail parks on roads that were designed as ring roads, to alleviate traffic, rather than opportunities for landowners and builders and the rest of FF's buddies to make another killing and thereby INCREASE traffic jams! :rolleyes:

Doing it backwards (tax first, THEN implementing alternatives) and worse still, then copping out on providing the alternatives, is just a money-making racket and makes people bitter towards the whole agenda.

Dob74

We may as well be prepared for when oil runs out. Weather it be in 20,50,100 years. Give the greens a chance, at least they stand for something unlike FF&FG

ionix5891

Dob74 wrote: »

We may as well be prepared for when oil runs out. Weather it be in 20,50,100 years. Give the greens a chance, at least they stand for something unlike FF&FG

energy policy is only one of the many things voters worry about...


anyways I dont see them proposing nuclear, so they are not serious about Ireland using clean energy, wind power as a large part of the solution yes but it wont work as a cheap and reliable source of base power, and forget about biomass even if you plant every bit of land in this country with biocrops you still wont meet all the current demands for energy

ejmaztec

It will be interesting to see whether there is a lull in the melting of the polar ice-caps as a result of the global recession. It may finally answer the question as to whether global warming is a man-made, or natural phenomenon.

If the latter is proven, then the Greens will be surplus to requirements (not that many people don't think this anyway).

Capt'n Midnight

ionix5891 wrote:

I agree we need more windpower but we have no way of storing the energy or transporting it to EU when the wind blows

You cant run a factory or a hospital or a datacenter on windpower as it doesnt provide a reliable baseload and the Grid in Ireland is currently fairly sucky, main problem with windfarms is not building them but connecting them up and wind not blowing when you need it most

you can store electricity with pumped storage , we have no shortage of mountains beside the sea along the west coast
biomass can be stored and we have a lot of poor land that would be good for trees
storing compressed air in the kinsale gas fields is probably a no-no not for technical reasons but that we are so dependent on gas that it's better used as gas store

wave and tidal turbines and pumped storage and biomass could contribute much of the base load, the interconnector would be used to export/import wind power

jochenstacker

Alternative energy is vital, but some conventional sources are indispensible too.
The nuclear option will HAVE to be considered.
And don't kid yourselves, here in Ireland you have been using nuclear power from the UK for decades.
Either build a nuclear station or buy more from your friendly neighbours the french and english. You drink their beer, drive their cars and watch their footbal. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is an island.
Nuclear fusion, fuel cells, the list goes on, these things will feature in the energy market in the future.

briainod

great post and thread-title Jochen. Too bad we gave away our gas reserves in the 70's due to gov't incompetence and lack of interest in future generations, the voice of the greens was nowhere as unpopular as it now since they've been embraced by dail eireann. If not the greens, then whom?

monellia

Do you not think that the economic problems facing us at this time call for greener policies so as to prevent a decline in the future? The economic opportunities that can be made possible by investing in low-carbon energy schemes are vast. Besides reducing our dependence on the costly commodity of oil, it would also result in an abundance of new jobs for the struggling construction industry.
The Greens didn't cause this recession. Leave them alone.

jank

The green party the greatest threat to Ireland?
Are you a zanu FF hack, or Eoghan Haris.

The biggest threat to Ireland is lack of leadership begining with FF and those clowns in charge. We will have over 300,000 people out of work in a few months and this is what you are worried about??

ionix5891

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

you can store electricity with pumped storage , we have no shortage of mountains beside the sea along the west coast
biomass can be stored and we have a lot of poor land that would be good for trees
storing compressed air in the kinsale gas fields is probably a no-no not for technical reasons but that we are so dependent on gas that it's better used as gas store

wave and tidal turbines and pumped storage and biomass could contribute much of the base load, the interconnector would be used to export/import wind power

I used to work for ESB Power Generation, and been up to Turlogh Hill, Ireland's only pumped storage station @ about only 300MW, its quite an impressive place (thing big tunnels and cavern and loads of big machines) to say the least and was built back in the 60s

If we build more of these that would be great but unfortunately there are no plans or planning applications for more pumped storage stations, tho there are no shortage of new windmills coming on line

As I said wind power is great (and thanks to government grants financially viable) but its not gonna solve this country's energy needs since as with everything in this country we do things sideways

jochenstacker wrote: »

Alternative energy is vital, but some conventional sources are indispensible too.
The nuclear option will HAVE to be considered.
And don't kid yourselves, here in Ireland you have been using nuclear power from the UK for decades.
Either build a nuclear station or buy more from your friendly neighbours the french and english. You drink their beer, drive their cars and watch their footbal. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is an island.
Nuclear fusion, fuel cells, the list goes on, these things will feature in the energy market in the future.

I completely agree with you, But we the Irish once again made a cockup, by voting No on the Lisbon Treaty and probably the result of the next Lisbon Treaty will be the same No

that would mean Ireland pulls out of the Euroatom research, that includes ITER (fusion research prototype plan)

So once the rest of the world discovers fusion technology good luck trying to get the technology of them for which we didnt contribute in research to or have experienced engineers to work with

The attitude to nuclear in this country is retarded, only if people knew how much radioactive **** goes up the chimneys of the dirty coal and peat and oil plants here in ireland (thats beside the greenhouse gases)

As an engineer i would rather live in a vicinity of a nuclear plant than anywhere near a coal plant

.

Danuogma

jank wrote: »

The green party the greatest threat to Ireland?
Are you a zanu FF hack, or Eoghan Haris.

When the Greens first got into the sack with Zanu FF I thought they were employing the old "if you can't beat them, join them" stratagy. They took it a step further, they didn't just join them, they became them and adopted the same contemptuous demeanor. A Zanu FF hack is not all that different from the average Green in government, they work for the same team.

ismynametoolong

With the snots ratings at an all time low of 2 % hopefully its the start of their demise with this recession I reckon there will be no more comfort votes for them at the polls next time out.

grahamo

I hate the fecking greens!
When are they gonna wake up? I have to go to work every day. If there was decent public transport I would use it. There isn't so I NEED a car and the greens decide to tax the sh*t out of me without any alternative being available.
I wouldn't mind so much if their extra taxes were going towards public transport or renewable energy but there not!

CtrlSource

ismynametoolong wrote: »

With the snots ratings at an all time low of 2 % hopefully its the start of their demise with this recession I reckon there will be no more comfort votes for them at the polls next time out.

Comfort votes?

grahamo wrote: »

I hate the fecking greens!
When are they gonna wake up? I have to go to work every day. If there was decent public transport I would use it. There isn't so I NEED a car and the greens decide to tax the sh*t out of me without any alternative being available.
I wouldn't mind so much if their extra taxes were going towards public transport or renewable energy but there not!

Perhaps you might explain why you think every successive Irish government has marginally increased Road Tax since it was introduced? (i.e. it would always go up marginally regardless of the parties in gov). Did you expect the Green Party in government to reduce tax on your mode of transport? Nobody's taxing the sh1t out of you.

Your point about where the tax is going is a good one, but also applies to a lot of tax revenues that go to central government, not just taxes on transportation. i think you're absolutely right that more tax revenue should be earmarked for specific areas than is currently the practice

BroomBurner

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0113/politics.html

Short story, I know, but at least it's showing the Greens have their heads screwed on. After all, didn't Bertie "create" three new junior ministership positions while in power during the time he was made aware of the worsening economic crisis?

20goto10

Some people miss the point. We need to be self sufficient on energy. Its a bold dream which has to start somewhere and that involves a transitional stage - which is always going to get up peoples noses.

But as a Green myself what I think they are doing wrong is jumping ahead with the Green agenda without having a green strategy in place first. For example, lower VRT and VAT on diesel cars and fuel. I mean encouraging people to drive diesel can hardly be called green!! Do they actually believe being Green is all about lower CO2? They do have their hands tied somewhat because they have to lower CO2 emissions and fast. Another example is light bulbs. Is there such thing as a 40 watt (equvilent) energy saving light bulb? I sure as hell can't find one and anything stonger causes my lamp shade to smell like burning vinyl.

Basically, as a Green I'm really, really disappointed with how they go about implementing their policies of removing pollutants without having anything Green to replace them with. I think getting into bed with Fiana Fail was a really bad idea and has tarnished their name beyond repair.

slagger

BroomBurner wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0113/politics.html

Short story, I know, but at least it's showing the Greens have their heads screwed on. After all, didn't Bertie "create" three new junior ministership positions while in power during the time he was made aware of the worsening economic crisis?

Thats nothing new. How many times have the general public mooted for reduction in the number of sitting td's by at least half. Think of those savings on salaries/pensions/expenses etc etc. There are far too many politicians for the size of population in the country.

Blazer

I hate the green party.
Introducing polices with no clue about the alternatives.
This carbon tax is another joke and it only a way of increasing budget revenue for the government.
It should be added onto petrol/diesel so those that travel more pay more.
But no..they want to penalize everyone with a car regardless of distance travelled. Same for households.
The recent policy on houses though for sale or rent "heating rate" is however a good idea. It will be very important to know that the house you're buying doesn't cost a fortune to run.
The thing is they've introduced loads of stupid policies and only one good policy I can think of at the moment.
At least after the next election the GP will be definitely screwed.
Gormley just comes across as a anorak wearing treehugger who looks way out of his depth.

BroomBurner

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

I hate the green party.
Introducing polices with no clue about the alternatives.
This carbon tax is another joke and it only a way of increasing budget revenue for the government.
It should be added onto petrol/diesel so those that travel more pay more.
But no..they want to penalize everyone with a car regardless of distance travelled. Same for households.
The recent policy on houses though for sale or rent "heating rate" is however a good idea. It will be very important to know that the house you're buying doesn't cost a fortune to run.
The thing is they've introduced loads of stupid policies and only one good policy I can think of at the moment.
At least after the next election the GP will be definitely screwed.
Gormley just comes across as a anorak wearing treehugger who looks way out of his depth.

What about Eamonn Ryan's decision to change the FF policy of giving away all of our natural resources? At least now we'll get something back. Is that not a good policy?

As for what car you drive versus the length of time you drive it, I don't think the Greens have anything to do with how much petrol/deisel costs, do they? If YOU decide to buy a gas-guzzling car, then how much YOU spend on filling YOUR tank is YOUR problem. Buy a car with a smaller engine if you're so p!ssed off. Do your bit for future generations while you're saving yourself some money.

Gormley's policy on having an elected Mayors isn't bad either. It will stop certain factions who have people in line to be mayor in their (financial) pockets.

Another one of Ryan's is that of opening up the tv stations a bit more and stopping the RTE quango going on, but I'm not sure how far that one is, or the specific details.

If you hate the greens, you must DETEST FF, seeing as they have made far worse decisions over their terms in power.

Blazer

BroomBurner wrote: »

What about Eamonn Ryan's decision to change the FF policy of giving away all of our natural resources? At least now we'll get something back. Is that not a good policy?

As for what car you drive versus the length of time you drive it, I don't think the Greens have anything to do with how much petrol/deisel costs, do they? If YOU decide to buy a gas-guzzling car, then how much YOU spend on filling YOUR tank is YOUR problem. Buy a car with a smaller engine if you're so p!ssed off. Do your bit for future generations while you're saving yourself some money.

Gormley's policy on having an elected Mayors isn't bad either. It will stop certain factions who have people in line to be mayor in their (financial) pockets.

Another one of Ryan's is that of opening up the tv stations a bit more and stopping the RTE quango going on, but I'm not sure how far that one is, or the specific details.

If you hate the greens, you must DETEST FF, seeing as they have made far worse decisions over their terms in power.

I couldn't even describe in words how I feel about FF.
So back to cars? If I have a 1.6L and drive 40,000 miles a year and pay a nominal fee, is it fair say if instead I have a 2.6L car and only drove 10,000 miles a year which would yield the higher emissions over the course of a year?

djpbarry

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And whatever about the pros and cons of private transport, most of the pollution in this country is because cars are stuck in crazy traffic in cities most of the time! Removing the traffic jams and letting people actually drive from A to B would actually IMPROVE matters!

Would reducing the number of cars on the roads not be a good way to do that?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Of course, so would actually building housing estates and business parks near each other, rather than putting massive retail parks on roads that were designed as ring roads, to alleviate traffic, rather than opportunities for landowners and builders and the rest of FF's buddies to make another killing and thereby INCREASE traffic jams!

I'm getting a little tired of hearing people complain about the fact that they HAD to buy a house 20-30km from their place of work and now they HAVE to drive to and from work every day. Yes, a lot of homes built in this country in recent years are of a poor standard and yes, the developments at large were often poorly planned. But nobody forced anybody to buy these houses. The owners knew what they were getting themselves into when they bought (or at least they should have known), so there's no point blaming everyone and anyone for your own lifestyle. You made the decision to buy, now you're stuck with it.

20goto10 wrote: »

Is there such thing as a 40 watt (equvilent) energy saving light bulb?

8 - 10 Watt CFL's are readily available:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/9-Watt-Compact-Fluorescents

BroomBurner

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

I couldn't even describe in words how I feel about FF.
So back to cars? If I have a 1.6L and drive 40,000 miles a year and pay a nominal fee, is it fair say if instead I have a 2.6L car and only drove 10,000 miles a year which would yield the higher emissions over the course of a year?

I don't understand your issue. Whether you drive 40,000 or 10,000 miles, if you do it in a 1.6L engine, you will have fewer emissions than if you covered the same mileage in a bigger engine. Your comparison makes no sense in reality.

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm getting a little tired of hearing people complain about the fact that they HAD to buy a house 20-30km from their place of work and now they HAVE to drive to and from work every day. Yes, a lot of homes built in this country in recent years are of a poor standard and yes, the developments at large were often poorly planned. But nobody forced anybody to buy these houses. The owners knew what they were getting themselves into when they bought (or at least they should have known), so there's no point blaming everyone and anyone for your own lifestyle. You made the decision to buy, now you're stuck with it.

In fairness, what was the alternative? When the rental market is so unregulated and rents were equal to mortgage payments, I'm sure I would have bought if I had the money. The price for well-serviced locations was even higher than other areas. It's only the better-off that get to live in accessibility-rich areas like along the DART line.

I am all for living in apartments but Irish apartments...? They're a bit of a joke.

But you're right, no one was forced to buy and there are still people who look down on those who rent.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Blazer

BroomBurner wrote: »

I don't understand your issue. Whether you drive 40,000 or 10,000 miles, if you do it in a 1.6L engine, you will have fewer emissions than if you covered the same mileage in a bigger engine. Your comparison makes no sense in reality.

I'm talking about doing 40,000 in a 1.6L whereas only 10,000 in a bigger engine.
Obviously the 1.6 is emitting more emissions due to the distance so hence a carbon tax added onto petrol/diesel makes more sense than adding it as a separate tax based on engine size.

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's the same with apartments vs houses, private vs public houses and private vs public transport.

Also, I find that because I cycle, people assume I don't have a car. In other words, the assumption is that if I had a car, I would use it because cycling sucks!

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

I'm talking about doing 40,000 in a 1.6L whereas only 10,000 in a bigger engine.
Obviously the 1.6 is emitting more emissions due to the distance so hence a carbon tax added onto petrol/diesel makes more sense than adding it as a separate tax based on engine size.

But you're not comparing like with like...There are two separate factors, carbon emissions per km and then distance travelled. The VRT tax is designed to encourage prospective car buyers to buy a car with a more environmentally friendly engine and then taxing petrol/diesel discourages using the car for more distance than is necessary. Although, I really think that they are taking the easy way out by taxing people because its infinitely less complicated than implementing proper planning and public transport measures :rolleyes: all stick and no carrot.

djpbarry

taconnol wrote: »

In fairness, what was the alternative? When the rental market is so unregulated and rents were equal to mortgage payments, I'm sure I would have bought if I had the money.

If I had the money, I would possibly have bought a place too, but there’s no way I’d have spent €400,000 for a cardboard box in Lucan (for example).

I can’t say I agree with you on the rent issue. I’ve been renting in Dublin for nearly 5 years now and I’ve never had too much trouble finding reasonable rents in decent locations, probably because there are so many rental properties out there.

taconnol wrote: »

I am all for living in apartments but Irish apartments...? They're a bit of a joke.

But again, standards have slipped because people are paying way too much for way too little.

taconnol wrote: »

But you're right, no one was forced to buy and there are still people who look down on those who rent.

You’ve hit the nail on the head there. But the reason (I think) that the rental market is poorly regulated is because nobody is demanding regulation (or at least not enough people). Although at the end of the day, the same argument could be made for renting as is made for buying – if you don’t think a place is worth the rent, then find somewhere else. Renting is seen as a stop-gap in this country between moving out of your parents’ home and buying your own place – it’s not seen as a viable long-term option by many people.

taconnol wrote: »

But you're not comparing like with like...There are two separate factors, carbon emissions per km and then distance travelled. The VRT tax is designed to encourage prospective car buyers to buy a car with a more environmentally friendly engine and then taxing petrol/diesel discourages using the car for more distance than is necessary.

But the problem is that, because people pay so much in tax for the car itself, they feel inclined to use it more to get their money’s worth, in my opinion. Scrapping VRT (or at least reducing it substantially) and taxing fuel instead would mean that you only pay for what you use. Although, I have encountered quite a large number of motorists who are opposed to such a move – not entirely sure why.

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

If I had the money, I would possibly have bought a place too, but there’s no way I’d have spent €400,000 for a cardboard box in Lucan (for example).

True but I'm young with no dependents. If I had two kids, I would find it a lot more difficult to stay in the small apartment that I'm in at the moment.

djpbarry wrote: »

I can’t say I agree with you on the rent issue. I’ve been renting in Dublin for nearly 5 years now and I’ve never had too much trouble finding reasonable rents in decent locations, probably because there are so many rental properties out there.

There are far more rental properties now than there were a few years ago. Compared to the continent, renters have very few rights here. Rents aren't indexed: a landlord can put up the rent when s/he decides to.

Fiscally, people are rewarded for taking out mortgages while renters geat a paultry sum every year to go towards their rent. Again, the government does nothing to encourage a stronger rental market (and I don't mean stronger, as in higher rents!). Every time rents are discussed in the media, it's from the point of view of the landlords: rents up=good, rents down=bad. Renters are invisible.

djpbarry wrote: »

You’ve hit the nail on the head there. But the reason (I think) that the rental market is poorly regulated is because nobody is demanding regulation (or at least not enough people). Although at the end of the day, the same argument could be made for renting as is made for buying – if you don’t think a place is worth the rent, then find somewhere else. Renting is seen as a stop-gap in this country between moving out of your parents’ home and buying your own place – it’s not seen as a viable long-term option by many people.

Yes, that attitude certainly prevails but I think the lack of regulation is because this government's philiosphy is that housing is an asset, not a right. In other words, housing is something to make money out of, not something to help people get. Just look at the serious lack of emergency accommodation available to asylum seekers, children in the care of the HSE, etc, the decline in council housing and the selling-off of the public-housing stock. The government's decision to ignore the needs of renters is just an extension of this philosophy.

djpbarry wrote: »

But the problem is that, because people pay so much in tax for the car itself, they feel inclined to use it more to get their money’s worth, in my opinion. Scrapping VRT (or at least reducing it substantially) and taxing fuel instead would mean that you only pay for what you use. Although, I have encountered quite a large number of motorists who are opposed to such a move – not entirely sure why.

Ok, interesting take - I hadn't looked at it that way. Then again, if cars were cheaper, I can only imagine every single person buying one as soon as they could. The problem is our cities are designed for car-users, so people who don't have a car are excluded - socially, from services, from shops, etc.

Grudaire

It's true, if those six TD's weren't in goverment all the policies would be different

Fianna Fáil wouldn't for instance: have a majority or tax you :rolleyes:

Seriously though what do you want from tham, and surely FF is the problem?

Macha

Cliste wrote: »

It's true, if those six TD's weren't in goverment all the policies would be different

Fianna Fáil wouldn't for instance: have a majority or tax you :rolleyes:

Seriously though what do you want from tham, and surely FF is the problem?

Irish constitution, art. 28.1: "The Government shall consist of not less than seven and not more than fifteen members who shall be appointed by the President in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution."

There is a reason why this was put in the consitution: so that we wouldn't have the ridiculous mess of Ministers and junior ministers that we have today, brought about by FF cronyism. I mean, we have 20 Ministers of State!! Each one costs €.5m . Get rid of them all and we could afford the HPV vaccine.

djpbarry

taconnol wrote: »

True but I'm young with no dependents. If I had two kids, I would find it a lot more difficult to stay in the small apartment that I'm in at the moment.

Absolutely – if I had kids I would probably relocate to a house. But that doesn’t mean that I have to buy a house. Of course, if you can't afford to make the necessary changes to your living arrangements, then you shouldn't be having kids (granted, there are exceptions).

taconnol wrote: »

There are far more rental properties now than there were a few years ago.

But there were still a lot of rental properties a few years ago. It was a bit more competitive alright, but there were plenty of places available.

taconnol wrote: »

Compared to the continent, renters have very few rights here. Rents aren't indexed: a landlord can put up the rent when s/he decides to.

Not if a written contract exists between the landlord and tenant. It never ceases to amaze me how many people I know who do not sign a lease when they move into a new place - madness. I have also heard of a number of people who pay their landlord in cash – how does that not set off alarm bells?

taconnol wrote: »

Fiscally, people are rewarded for taking out mortgages while renters geat a paultry sum every year to go towards their rent.

Maybe, but one has to consider the financial burden of a mortgage versus renting, which is something that many people overlook. Rent is seen as ‘dead money’ by many people, but for some reason, the interest portion of their mortgage is seen as an investment?

taconnol wrote: »

Yes, that attitude certainly prevails but I think the lack of regulation is because this government's philiosphy is that housing is an asset, not a right.

But that has a lot to do with the attitude of the general public – owning property is seen as the be-all and end-all by many in this country. It’s only natural that this would be reflected by the government that they elect. I’m not saying I agree with this, I’m just saying that this is the reality. Personally, I will never understand this ‘urge’ that Irish people (and to a lesser extent, British people) have to acquire their own home, even if they know that they cannot possibly afford it.

taconnol wrote: »

Ok, interesting take - I hadn't looked at it that way. Then again, if cars were cheaper, I can only imagine every single person buying one as soon as they could.

Not if the operating cost increases substantially – the car wouldn’t really be any cheaper to own over it’s lifetime, just the upfront payment would be lower. But I suppose the problem with shifting the tax from VRT to fuel is how to manage the transition. What do we do with all the motorists who have already paid their VRT – they can’t be expected to cough up on the massive hike in fuel prices. They’d be hit twice for the same tax euros.

Húrin

CtrlSource wrote: »

Perhaps you might explain why you think every successive Irish government has marginally increased Road Tax since it was introduced? (i.e. it would always go up marginally regardless of the parties in gov). Did you expect the Green Party in government to reduce tax on your mode of transport? Nobody's taxing the sh1t out of you.

There is no such thing as road tax, only motor tax AFAIK.

Húrin

taconnol wrote: »

The problem is our cities are designed for car-users, so people who don't have a car are excluded - socially, from services, from shops, etc.

The problem is that our cities were not designed for cars, at least not the centres, and forcing adaptation to cars doesn't work.

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

Not if the operating cost increases substantially – the car wouldn’t really be any cheaper to own over it’s lifetime, just the upfront payment would be lower. But I suppose the problem with shifting the tax from VRT to fuel is how to manage the transition. What do we do with all the motorists who have already paid their VRT – they can’t be expected to cough up on the massive hike in fuel prices. They’d be hit twice for the same tax euros.

Thinking more about this and you're absolutely right. Because car owners don't pay out a large amount each time they decide to jump in the car, cost doesn't impede their decision to drive.

Whereas the fixed rate of public transport means that people decide to use their car, because they don't factor in all the actual costs (petrol, wear & tear, NCT, road tax).. Plus again, a huge about of costs are externalised (cost of accidents, pollution)

Húrin wrote: »

The problem is that our cities were not designed for cars, at least not the centres, and forcing adaptation to cars doesn't work.

Yeah that's true about city centres. I was referring moreso to developments like Blanchardstown & Liffey Valley, etc. It's far easier to get there by car than by public transport.