Speed Camera Question

-Chris-

There's been debate and discussion about speed cameras (and their safety/revenue/shooting-fish-in-a-barrel effects) on here forever, but I thought I'd ask a quick question to see what the reaction is...


If you gave me the power to install speed cameras, I wouldn't bother putting them on the M50 or the N7 (or any 2-3 lane road with a central divider).
I would, however, put one outside every school and hospital in the country.
I'd also find every section of road in the country that is designated an "accident black spot" and put two cameras at each spot (one for each direction of traffic).


No "yeah, but..." or "what if...", just a simple yes or no answer - if the Government rolled out a plan like this tomorrow, would you support it?



edit: Let rip with your reasons for your "yes" or "no" (I'm particularly interested in the "no"s)!!!

cashmni1

Speed cameras do not equal road saftey.
Safe roads and good driver knowlage + behaviour = road saftey.
Speed cameras cost lots of money.

Saab Ed

Not on your nelly do I want speed cameras in this country, if only because its not even going to be our police force managing it. Private companies with the law in their hands , you must be joking. Its bad enough watching Guards shooting fish in a barrel but that will just get silly. I just dont see the right kinda person going for the speed camera jobs in the first place. It will end up like the clampers in the UK. Better education , more restrictions on younger drivers and safer roads. What is an Accident black spot road sign describing anyway. Is it telling me we know the road is sh1t and dangerous but we're doing nothing about it anyway. Do I get bonus points if I clear the stage accident free. Plus ask any guard and they will tell you there is no way they are going to stand in a dangerous place like an accident black spot anyway...and they're right, nor would I. This post is too short to go into all the things I would want to see done before speed cameras arrive ( Force the councils to fix black spots, ensure old narrow access roads are not just simply widend when new estates are built , give young drivers restricted license's for 1 year after passing their test ) but it will end up like the NCT. Remember that farce about the test being not so strict at the start but as our roads improve the test will become stricter. Well the test got stricter and we got some motorways but the B road network is in sh1te and our cars are still getting battered. Stand up to this and dont let it happen.

Sandwich

Outside schools I get.

But where does outside hospitals come from? Giddy nurses not paying attention leaving their shift to head off to meet a Garda, supermen consultants believing in their invulnerability, ambulence drivers thinking they are at the wheel of a Ferrari ?

(Voted yes btw - thats one heck of a lot of cameras you're installing. Nice one.)

galwaytt

No.

I don't trust the people who'll operate them - they'll be as answerable as clampers, only worse. Civilians with a 'badge' - the worst kind.

I don't trust the people they work for, either - the council's/govt., etc. They have no knowledge, nor expertise, on the subject matter, and they're on a power trip.

I don't trust they aren't a revenue generating device.

I do know they will not have any effect on road accident statistics - this is because, just like those ads the RSA is running on TV - at 11 O'clock at night, when the audience they're trying to reach is already out, and half-pissed....they are out of touch with the public. And if the audience they're reaching out to is watching telly........well, they're not out, on the road, are they ? Just shows the complete incompetence of the people involved.

Savman

I believe the children are the future, teach them well and let them lead the way.

So, yeah, er, education ftw.

As much as I hate fixed speed cameras they have a big advantage. You get to know where they are an can speed up between them. I found this so funny until I got used to it while living in the UK. Everybody drives like fook then hits the brakes for the camera, then floors the car again, you get into the habit very quickly and drive like this all the time.

Also the chance of a mobile speed trap in the vicinity of cameras is very slim so the slow down - speed up method of driving works very well.

Johnny Utah

The entire M50 and every dual carriageway in the country would soon be re-designated as an "accident blackspot".

AugustusMaximus

Irene Numerous Greenery wrote: »

As much as I hate fixed speed cameras they have a big advantage. You get to know where they are an can speed up between them. I found this so funny until I got used to it while living in the UK when I live there. Everybody drives like fook then hits the brakes for the camera, then floors the car again, you get into the habit very quickly and drive like this all the time.

Also the chance of a mobile speed trap in the vicinity of cameras is very slim so the slow down - speed up method of driving works very well.

Surely this makes things even more dangerous.

Speed cameras on motorways is for tax collecting only.


I see hardly any who have voted yes have put their names forward.

AugustusMaximus

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Surely this makes things even more dangerous.

Speed cameras on motorways is for tax collecting only.


I see hardly any who have voted yes have put their names forward.

It does make things more dangerous if your not paying attention but as the speed limits are almost always too low it gives a chance to drive faster between cameras without worrying about getting caught for speeding. At the end of the day I am against speed cameras as you said there sole purpose is to generate revenue!

Martron

have not read many of the other replies but this is the way i see it

cameras on motorways is shooting fish in a barrel. statitically they are the safest roads in ireland.

speed cameras at black spots, tight bends , schools, pedestrian crossings, housing estates.

i know for a fact that some idiot here will say that he can drive some road faster than some other person because he has a better car or that he drove that road everyday of his life.... etc etc

but i really believe that if speed cameras were put up in known danger zones ... but the camera itself is highlighted and known to public i really dont see the problem....


if you are prepared to speed through a known danger zone where excess speed can cause an accident , prepare to be caught..... enough said as far as i am concerned.


( for the record. i believe hidden speed cameras really are not a deterant. and seeing that it takes up to 3 months to get notification of points. for any speed camera to be a deterant we need to know about the points at least within a wekk of getting them. i have no points and i will try to keep it that way. i would be truly pissed if i got them. and it would slow me down f i had got them.)

Martron

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Surely this makes things even more dangerous.

Speed cameras on motorways is for tax collecting only.


I see hardly any who have voted yes have put their names forward.

i voted yes.

not picking on you. but i do disagree with cameras on motorways

afatbollix

was in birrminham yesterday.. got a taxi into town from the airport and counted about 7 speed cameras.. what every one was doing was just speeding up and slowing down setween them...

on the main street there was about 20-30 cops walking about not doing much.. and then on the way back to the airport there was a load of lads racing out the road /braking between lights/speed cameras...

i dident see a police car driving in traffic once....

if these cameras comes in what i think will happen is that the traffic section of the gadai will be got rid of... and inbetween cameras its a free for all...


Cameras arent the solution a private company will stick them every 50 metres on a motorway and forget about the back road..

im up for out side schools / black spots...

AugustusMaximus

anto-t wrote: »

if these cameras comes in what i think will happen is that the traffic section of the gadai will be got rid of... and inbetween cameras its a free for all...

This would prob cause deaths to go up. But hey, its what Gaybo wants.

Seth Brundle

I would presume that the private company will use SPECS on motorways and dual carriageways rather than GATSOs!

samhail

yes.

AugustusMaximus

kbannon wrote: »

I would presume that the private company will use SPECS on motorways and dual carriageways rather than GATSOs!

Jesus. THe horror. Will have to buy a rifle.

slugboy

I can imagine the problem with the siting of cameras is the regulations and the camera calibration. I can imagine that the camera is to be used on straight roads, with a certain gradient and a long view to oncoming traffic and good 'sight lines'. It is unlikely that you will get this near accident black spots.

Near schools and hospitals? Usually these places are fairly well parked up, hence you will not be able to get a good view for a long enough period of time to catch anyone speeding.

In the Uk they are adopting 'average speed' cameras. You get photo'ed going into a zone and also when you leave it - it can be a zone length of 10 miles long or so. The software behind the system knows the distance between the entry and exit point and the time taken for you to travel that distance. If your average is greater than the speed limit, you're busted. thsi prevents the speeding up and slowing down of cars as they approach cameras, which is what we see in ireland.

The only deterent to speeding is much more onerous fines and bans from driving, backed up with more visible implementation by the gardai and the courts.

Slug

AugustusMaximus

slugboy wrote: »

The only deterent to speeding is much more onerous fines and bans from driving, backed up with more visible implementation by the gardai and the courts.

Slug

The Gardai at the moment show the motorist no respect. The majority of speed checks seem to happen at areas where the motorist can be caught out. Just after changes in speed limits. HQDC's with 100kph limits.

Just this morning I passed a Gatso van on the Lower Glanmire Road. Its a section of dual carriageway with a 60kph. Is this supposed to be saving lives ? Twisty sections of bad road with ludicrous 80kph limits and never a squad car seen. As others have said, schools etc and accident black spots should be peppered with cameras. The presence of of signs indicating the presence of cameras would then seriously reduce the rate of accidents at these blackspots.

If they keep up this kind of crack and at the same time ignore all other facets of driving, then this will lead to the mass destruction of speed cameras as seen in Holland and UK.

leon8v

slugboy wrote: »

In the Uk they are adopting 'average speed' cameras. You get photo'ed going into a zone and also when you leave it - it can be a zone length of 10 miles long or so. The software behind the system knows the distance between the entry and exit point and the time taken for you to travel that distance. If your average is greater than the speed limit, you're busted. thsi prevents the speeding up and slowing down of cars as they approach cameras, which is what we see in ireland.

I am open to correction on this but isnt this the type of system adopted in Europe on the main toll roads, you go through the first toll, get a ticket and then pay at the next one or when you exit which could be an hour or more drive away, If you get there too quickly the toll is more as you must have been speeding. I was told this when I went to collect my car in Spain anyway, so the solution, let the car stretch its legs and then pull into a services area for a toilet break or something to allow time to clock back up a bit. The steady 100kph everywhere merchants will say, whats the point in that, well you get to enjoy the car without it hurting your wallet.

AugustusMaximus

leon8v wrote: »

The steady 100kph everywhere merchants will say, whats the point in that, well you get to enjoy the car without it hurting your wallet.

You get to stretch your legs without a loss of time ?

leon8v

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

You get to stretch your legs without a loss of time ?

Also true aswell!!! Its a win win situation really. You enjoy your car, take a break and pull up to the next toll at the same time as the 100kph everywhere guy who is shaking his head in disgust at you!!!

slugboy

slugboy wrote: »

The only deterent to speeding is much more onerous fines and bans from driving, backed up with more visible implementation by the gardai and the courts.

Slug

The major problem with speed cameras is they have only one use and that is to catch people driving over the speed limits. In almost all instances the speed limits are too slow for the road anyway so catching people over the limit is pointless. People in this country(and the UK also) need to get of the exceeding the speed limit is a crime punishable by death bandwagon. Stupidity and clueless driving is what is killing people in this country. Now inappropriate speed falls under this but that may not even mean breaking the speed limit.

I saw a perfect example of this when driving from Galway to Cork last night. When the road is clear and good like most of this route I almost always exceed the speed limit by 20 or 30 kmph and more on the ridicules 100 kmph ennis bypass where I at times I would go closer to 100 mph*. Now at one point I was in a line of traffic driving along at an annoying 80kmph but overtaking was impossible but no, some ass in a people carrier of some overtakes me which wasnt too bad but then with a car clearly comming takes the next car aswell now this was so close that I actually braked as I was sure there was going to be a major smash and I didnt want to be part of it but he got in by inches. He then did it again twice more overtaking trucks.

This is the what kills people on the roads not "speeding" and what will cameras do to solve this? Nothing!

Edit:* I would like to add that I wouldnt drive the length of the bypass at this speed just push up to it at times. I would normally keep to around 130 to 140 kmph and keep a good eye out for speed traps.

leon8v

Irene Numerous Greenery wrote: »

I saw a perfect example of this when driving from Galway to Cork last night. When the road is clear and good like most of this route I almost always exceed the speed limit by 20 or 30 kmph and more on the ridicules 100 kmph ennis bypass where I at times I would go closer to 100 mph. Now at one point I was in a line of traffic driving along at an annoying 80kmph but overtaking was impossible but no, some ass in a people carrier of some overtakes me which wasnt too bad but then with a car clearly comming takes the next car aswell now this was so close that I actually braked as I was sure there was going to be a major smash and I didnt want to be part of it but he got in by inches. He then did it again twice more overtaking trucks.

This is the what kills people on the roads not "speeding" and what will cameras do to solve this? Nothing!

While I agree 100% with you, prepare to be flamed by the high horse brigade for your admission above!

kildara

Irene Numerous Greenery wrote: »

The major problem with speed cameras is they have only one use and that is to catch people driving over the speed limits.

But that is why they call them speed camera's. They cant detect irresponsible drivers, which is why we need the Traffic Gardaí to also be on the roads catching these people such as the guy in the people carrier you described.

Yes to the vote. I think it wouod be alot better than the current situation and placement of camera's.
In the UK the camera's are supposed to be placed at locations that have in the past been area's where accidents were and so they are not randomly put along the roads.

I think the introduction if the average speed camera's would prevent most people speeding and if these were placed on motorways - and be well known that they are there - it would be far more advantageous than the current "catch you in one spot so you can speed elsewhere" ones...

AugustusMaximus

kildara wrote: »

I think the introduction if the average speed camera's would prevent most people speeding and if these were placed on motorways - and be well known that they are there - it would be far more advantageous than the current "catch you in one spot so you can speed elsewhere" ones...

Surely the cost of putting specs on motorways where hardly any accidents would be better served enforcing speed limits on regional roads where the vast majority of deaths happen. As people always quote here, the death rates on autobahn where there is a speed limit is almost exactly the same as stretches without one.

Or an even better idea. Using some of this money to actually monitor other facets of driving than just speeding.

leon8v

kildara wrote: »

I think the introduction if the average speed camera's would prevent most people speeding and if these were placed on motorways - and be well known that they are there - it would be far more advantageous than the current "catch you in one spot so you can speed elsewhere" ones...

I dont believe we have a problem on motorways with speeding. The only problem we have on Irish motorways is the majority of Irish drivers not having a clue how to drive on them and not knowing what the reflective pieces of glass stuck to their windscreen and on either side of their cars are for. If you have any cop on at all, and spend more than a millisecond planning your move from the left to the overtaking lane on a motorway you can gauge the speed that a car is approaching you from behind. If you see a set of headlights gaining fast on you, then you know not to pull out, however a lot of irish drivers dont seem to be able to grasp that concept. And I am talking about speeds within the limit. If you are doing 60kph and a car is approaching in the overtaking lane at 120kph, you should be able to notice the differential and know not to pull out. As I have said many times before, teach people how to drive on motorways rather than just putting up cameras. There is no inclusion for motorway driving in the learning process, ie you cant drive on a motorway on a provisional, you then do a test that doesnt go near a motorway and all of a sudden you are now qualified to drive on a motorway. It would be like letting someone do a few hours in a flight simulator and then sending them off in a plane on their own!!!

AugustusMaximus

leon8v wrote: »

I dont believe we have a problem on motorways with speeding. The only problem we have on Irish motorways is the majority of Irish drivers not having a clue how to drive on them and not knowing what the reflective pieces of glass stuck to their windscreen and on either side of their cars are for. If you have any cop on at all, and spend more than a millisecond planning your move from the left to the overtaking lane on a motorway you can gauge the speed that a car is approaching you from behind. If you see a set of headlights gaining fast on you, then you know not to pull out, however a lot of irish drivers dont seem to be able to grasp that concept. And I am talking about speeds within the limit. If you are doing 60kph and a car is approaching in the overtaking lane at 120kph, you should be able to notice the differential and know not to pull out. As I have said many times before, teach people how to drive on motorways rather than just putting up cameras. There is no inclusion for motorway driving in the learning process, ie you cant drive on a motorway on a provisional, you then do a test that doesnt go near a motorway and all of a sudden you are now qualified to drive on a motorway. It would be like letting someone do a few hours in a flight simulator and then sending them off in a plane on their own!!!

A dangerous speed on a motorway with other cars present is prob something around 90 to 100mph IMO (depending on what car you are driving). Anything over this is prob dangerous due to the speed differential of other cars around you. Very high speeds on autobahn do not result in higher death rates due to surrounding cars doing the same relative speed to everyone else and due to very good driver training in Germany which results in German drivers understanding proper observation, lane discipline and indicication.

On an empty motorway it would depend on what sort of car you are driving. 120 to 130 mph in a Ferrari on a straight motorway could hardly be described as dangerous ?

leon8v

leon8v wrote: »

I dont believe we have a problem on motorways with speeding. The only problem we have on Irish motorways is the majority of Irish drivers not having a clue how to drive on them

Leaving the lack of training to one side anybody with any intelligence who is driving a car should be able to follow the few simple rules of motorway driving e.g. Keep left unless overtaking, use your mirrors before doing anything and at least try to judge whats going on around them for instance the point you made about making a judgment on the speed of a car approaching from behind before pulling out in front of it.

Steve

I'd say yes with the provision that they were made highly visible and well signposted.

I'd also be in favour of US style regulations for schools, they have variable time speed limits so at start or finish of school time etc, the speed limit is 15mph for a certain distance either side of it.

Seth Brundle

slugboy wrote: »

I can imagine the problem with the siting of cameras is the regulations and the camera calibration. I can imagine that the camera is to be used on straight roads, with a certain gradient and a long view to oncoming traffic and good 'sight lines'. It is unlikely that you will get this near accident black spots.

The law currently explicitly states that cameras will be presumed to be working fine and therefore whether or not they are calibrated is irrelevant - whatever they read is whats important.

slugboy wrote: »

Near schools and hospitals? Usually these places are fairly well parked up, hence you will not be able to get a good view for a long enough period of time to catch anyone speeding.

They shouldn't be though. Too many thick parents etc park making the roads outside schools more dangerous!

slugboy wrote: »

In the Uk they are adopting 'average speed' cameras. You get photo'ed going into a zone and also when you leave it - it can be a zone length of 10 miles long or so. The software behind the system knows the distance between the entry and exit point and the time taken for you to travel that distance. If your average is greater than the speed limit, you're busted. thsi prevents the speeding up and slowing down of cars as they approach cameras, which is what we see in ireland.

You mean SPECS (as opposed to GATSOs)- I think someone mentioned them earlier in the thread!

slugboy wrote: »

The only deterent to speeding is much more onerous fines and bans from driving, backed up with more visible implementation by the gardai and the courts.

Nonsense. Speeding will always occur. WHat needs to be done is a complete review of speed limits being applied to roads making the speed limit on a road realistic rather than a generic number picked by someone sitting in an office!

leon8v wrote: »

I am open to correction on this but isnt this the type of system adopted in Europe on the main toll roads, you go through the first toll, get a ticket and then pay at the next one or when you exit which could be an hour or more drive away, If you get there too quickly the toll is more as you must have been speeding.

AFAIK toll operators can't and don't act as police. However, I have heard of the police standing at toll booths and doing this.

kildara wrote: »

But that is why they call them speed camera's. They cant detect irresponsible drivers, which is why we need the Traffic Gardaí to also be on the roads catching these people such as the guy in the people carrier you described.

The problem is that everyone here witnesses dangerous or inadequate driving standards every day. How often do you see someone getting pulled for it? Pretty much never. Now the government are planning on outsourcing speed detection which IMO will be good for 'safety' stats but will in real terms probably cause the reduction in garda numbers out looking for stupid drivers!

BlackWizard

I voted Yes and agree with the above. SteveC post.

Being able to drive without looking at the speedo every few minutes on long distances would be nice. So to only have to do this when speed cameras are about, which is in black spots or high risk areas, would make my journeys much more relaxing.

I think people who are voting No because they don't want speed cameras are thowing away a vote and wasting their own time. Speed cameras are going to be around for a long time. So if we all recognise this horrible truth and move on towards a single ideal way for using them, then the better off we will all be.

Steve

kbannon wrote: »

AFAIK toll operators can't and don't act as police. However, I have heard of the police standing at toll booths and doing this.

AFAIK this happens in France.
If you get from one toll booth to the next too quickly it's an automatic fine. You take a ticket when you enter and present it when you leave and pay for the distance travelled, that way the system knows how long it took to travel between them.

AugustusMaximus

SteveC wrote: »

AFAIK this happens in France.
If you get from one toll booth to the next too quickly it's an automatic fine. You take a ticket when you enter and present it when you leave and pay for the distance travelled, that way the system knows how long it took to travel between them.

Best idea would be to conveniently lose the ticket.

leon8v

SteveC wrote: »

AFAIK this happens in France.
If you get from one toll booth to the next too quickly it's an automatic fine. You take a ticket when you enter and present it when you leave and pay for the distance travelled, that way the system knows how long it took to travel between them.

This is what I meant, and it was France I was talking about too. I had been told about it before I went but I only did the trip once so had nothing to compare it to.

Guy:Incognito

Irene Numerous Greenery wrote: »

In almost all instances the speed limits are too slow for the road anyway so catching people over the limit is pointless. .

Speed limits cant be set right at the maximum a road can handle. Otherwise people breakign the speed limit would end up in ditches. Having the speed limit below the road capacity still allows for errors and speeding. It doesnt give you the right to travel as fast as you like or feel the speed limit should be.

Seth Brundle

SteveC wrote: »

AFAIK this happens in France.
If you get from one toll booth to the next too quickly it's an automatic fine. You take a ticket when you enter and present it when you leave and pay for the distance travelled, that way the system knows how long it took to travel between them.

I haven't driven in France since 2006 but it definitely wasn't in operation then. I frequently drove 'slightly' over the speed limits there and there was never anything said.
However, they have been cracking down on speeding in recent years there.
I still can't find anything online about this type of enforcement.

Maybe the french time people between tolls, maybe they dont either way I dont see what giving out tickets for braking the speed limits on such safe roads is going to gain(other than annoy people). Why is the whole world so obsessed with speed limits set back when cars could hardly reach these speeds. Ok I know drivers in Germany are very competent but as was mentioned there is no difference between the accident rate on limited and unlimited autobahns and for instance I would imagine the motorways in France are very close to the quality of the autobahns.

galwaytt

BlackWizard wrote: »

Being able to drive without looking at the speedo every few minutes on long distances would be nice.

...it would also be grounds for me, if I could, to take your licence off you, and send you back to driving lessons. Driving with undue car and attention, includes the information about your own position, driving. Speed, distance, position. If you're not doing that, you should not be allowed to drive.

As for the subject in general - SPECS can't read no plates that aren't legible. So, unless cars come fitted overnight with no-plate washers/wipers, it's a complete waste of time. 3 miles down my road will render your plate completely illegible - big and all as the font is.

As for the advantages of knowing where fixed camera's are, and the speeding up/slowing down phenomenon, this is proof that fixed camera's are a safety liability. That type of driving, referred to on the Continent as 'accordian driving', promotes people accelerating quickly on exit of controlled areas - often to the detriment of incidental traffic and pedestrians in the vicinity (few enough people can judge speed of an oncoming item accurately, a much smaller number again an accelerating item........
Entering controlled areas promotes the reverse, and rear end accidents, and skidding accidents are very, very common. Last minute braking, and the human nature to be closer to the car in front than is naturally good for you, sees to that. You'll find that accident no's in the vicinity of such camera's will increase often in stark contrast to when the area was uncontrolled at all.

As we know, speed does not kill. Stupidity, and stupid/inappropriate speed, does. But the powers-that-be don't seem to have the intelligence to understand the difference.

BlackWizard

galwaytt wrote: »

...it would also be grounds for me, if I could, to take your licence off you, and send you back to driving lessons. Driving with undue car and attention, includes the information about your own position, driving. Speed, distance, position. If you're not doing that, you should not be allowed to drive.

What are you talking about. Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning:D I'm aware of my speed, distance, position etc. Why do you think I'm not? Strange old post. I probably couldn't tell you my exact speed, but I can easily tell to the nearest 7kph what speed I'm at, which is enough to find myself with a nice speed tick.

But as you said "Stupidity, and stupid/inappropriate speed" kills. I drove to work at 5am every morning and come home at 6pm every evening. I would be quite tired and generally in a bad mood depending on the day. But every minute of the journey I'm thinking about what you just said, which is the first piece of advice a friend gave me when I started driving. "Once you realise everyone else on the road are stupid gob****es you'll be fine". So I would take your post directed at me as a made up personal insult but I reckon you just let your fingers type before your brain caught up.