Newly qualified solicitors

geminiii

Hi guys,

Well this is my first post on boards.ie but I have been reading the threads on this forum for months!

As the title to the thread suggests I am a newly qualified solicitor, an unemployed one unfortunately... While I would love to go off on a rant about all the hard work and money that went into getting me to this point I think that that has been covered on a number of recent threads. I will ask however that if there is anybody out there who uses this forum and who is doing FE1's to seriously think about what you are doing. If you genuinely love the idea of being a solicitor then fair enough. But if it is the 'glamour' or the 'money' that is encouraging you I would suggest that you have a long hard think about it before committing so much time and money.

ANYWAY the reason for my post is to ask for advice as to what to do now? I have been looking for a job for over two months now and feel that I am banging my head against a brick wall. There does not appear to be any jobs for newly qualifieds, solicitors applications for legal exec positions will not be considered and there is not a lot of temping work out there because as one recruitment agent told me they are an 'expense that most firms can no longer afford'.

I'm feeling very frustrated by everything and I was wondering if anybody had any ideas on how I can approach this or even provide me with the names of recruitment agencies that I might be missing? Would it be best for me to just start printing off my cv and sending it to batches of solicitors? Or would it be sufficient to email them?

I really dont want this thread to become a forum for arguments over the legal profession and I would really appreciate it if you only post genuine advice for myself and the other newly qualifieds who use boards.ie on a daily basis.

Thanks in advance for all your help

Geminiii

ronnie3585

I can well understand your frustration, it is an appaling time to be qualifying as a solicitor. A lot of my friends are just after qualifying and a huge amount were shown the door the day their intentures ran out. Thankfully I'm not qualified for another two years, however I'm not looking forward to it as I doubt very much that things will pick up in the interim.

As far as I'm aware there aren't a lot of alternatives. I lot of my friends have left the legal profession and gone into taxation. It seems to be one of very few growth areas. However, to become a consultant involves doing the ITI exams which are extremely difficult and would involve at least two years of further study, not to mention the expense.

The Civil Service, specifically the DPP, CSSO and Dept of Foreign Affairs, used to hire quite a few solicitors. From what I hear from colleagues who work there, there is a complete hiring freeze and they are cutting back on all contract workers. A futher sign of the time I suppose.

A lot of people are emmigrating, primarily to other common law jurisdictions such as Oz and Canada. Although thier economies are suffering too, it doesnt appear to be as dire as here. I have applied for an Australian, Canadian and US visa, I certainly want a plan B (C and D too!)

If none of the above appeal to you then it can't hurt to start sending out CVs. Get the Law Directory and start sending them out en masse. You might pick up some part time or locum work. It's not great but it will pay the bills. It's probably best do it no rather than later as approx another 300 trainees will be qualified come April, and many in the same boat as you.

Best of luck!

Amazotheamazing

A lot of us in the same boat Gemminiii.

Even at the height of the boom, it was alway difficult enough to get work with pqe, so it's not like there was ever much of a shortage of solicitors in the last 5 - 8 years. With that in mind, even if the economy does recover, will it ever recover to the extent it was 5 years ago? With that in mind, imo, we have to ask ourselves, which is more important, staying in law, or staying in Ireland.

If you want to stay in law, emigration is probably the likeliest option.

If you want to stay in Ireland, I would consider retraining, or looking for work in the Civil Service, Tax, Mediation.

Personally, I see this as a chance to try living in a different culture for a few years.

Legal Fool

Geminiii in light of what you've just said re jobs for newly qualified I wonder if you might be able to advise me on my predicament. I'm currently in the middle of my training contract (due to qualify in april 2010) and i am having serious doubts as to whether this is really the career for me. I'm due to start PPC2 this April and fork out €5,000 in fees.

Given the way the economy is, lack of jobs etc I have been considering leaving my apprenticeship and changing careers. Do you think i should cut my losses now? Or would I be made to leave my training contract? I just dont know if i really want to work in law anyway when i qualify!

Tom Young

Admin note:

There are a number of relatively current threads on the same topic. If this thread becomes like either the PFO thread or the apprenticeship thread I will merge this with the others.

So as the OP stated its intention is not to be the same, but its angling that way.

Just be warned!

Tom

dazza21ie

There are still a few (admittedly very few) jobs being advertised on Law Society website in recent times but then it is estimated that there are over 1,000 unemployed solicitors in the country which makes competition for any vacant job extremely competitive.

Options for newly qualifieds seem to be very limited. I noticed in the recent Gazette that the Law Society warned newly qualifieds to ensure if they go out on their own they must comply with the accounting regulations. Are there many newly qualifieds that would setup at the current time?

Once again the Law Society is failing its members especially those who are recently qualified (and have funded the Law Society in the last number of years with their fees). If you were to compare the Law Society Website in the UK (http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/home.law) with the Irish one there is such a difference. The UK Law Society are providing their members with needed information, advice and assistance, the Irish Law Society - nothing!.

McCrack

I dont agree the LS has failed its members. The LS function is to regulate, represent and educate. It has no control over the numbers nor can it. The market is saturated and the economy is crap at the minute, simple as.

If we are honest here we should blame ourselves instead of pointing the finger at the LS saying they created the present situation. Each member and every aspiring member of the LS collectively is the problem (coupled with the present economic situation).
Every solicitor, trainee and wannabe had or has the choice to enter and stay. The LS has no function in this except to educate those wanting to join.

This might seem simplistic but it's the nuts and bolts of it in my opinion.

dats_right

McCrack wrote: »

I dont agree the LS has failed its members. The LS function is to regulate, represent and educate. It has no control over the numbers nor can it. The market is saturated and the economy is crap at the minute, simple as.

We know the competition arguments but not everything revolves around the numbers, as Dazza says: "The UK Law Society are providing their members with needed information, advice and assistance", I think in this regard there can be no doubting that our Law Society is neglecting its duties and failing its members very badly indeed. The Law Society is doing absolutely nothing for trainees and newly qualifieds (other then helping us by relieving us of a few grand!), whereas it has a duty to advise and assist us and no, constantly posting us glossy brochures telling us we should fork out €2,100 for one of their super-duper Diploma courses doesn't count!!

The Law Society is quick enough to get Ken Murphy or somesuch on the airwaves to protect the Society's interests every time the Society gets it in the neck, such as there complete failures re Byrne, Lynn, etc. or when the competition authority suggest that other institutions should be permitted to offer PPC courses (note the speed that Cork was opened up after same). But, when the profession is facing probably the biggest challenges it has ever faced, where is the Law Society to be found? Out there fighting the good fight on behalf of its members, oh wait no, Eh, it's actually nowhere, well except that it is once again protecting their own turf by opening an utterly needless seperate office for the Regulation Department away from Blackhall place on North King Street at our expense(who are they trying to fool?!). It really is incredible. What we need to do is to start getting significant numbers of newly/recently qualifieds elected onto the Council of the Society and thus giving us some input into the future direction of our profession.

Viva la Revolución

McCrack

What the hell is the LS supposed to do regarding the current saturation of the legal market and economic downturn?

The LS has no function and/or responsibility with this. What "info. advice and assistance" can the LS give trainees and newly qualified solrs. that we ourselves dont aleady know? Solicitors (generally) and those aspiring to join are not stupid. Like I said in an earlier post we know the risks and the current situation is not the LS fault.

dazza21ie

McCrack wrote: »

What the hell is the LS supposed to do regarding the current saturation of the legal market and economic downturn?

The LS has no function and/or responsibility with this. What "info. advice and assistance" can the LS give trainees and newly qualified solrs. that we ourselves dont aleady know? Solicitors (generally) and those aspiring to join are not stupid. Like I said in an earlier post we know the risks and the current situation is not the LS fault.

An example of what the Law Society in the UK has done to help it's members: "Following discussions with the Law Society, HMRC have agreed arrangements for practices to defer paying tax during the economic downturn."

Just by looking at the UK Law Society website homepage you would realise there was difficulties for the profession. The Irish one looks like everything is perfect! It was already stated in this thread that the Irish Law Society's own finance scheme to help members cover the cost of their practising certs and PI Insurance has been reined in this year when members need it most.

McCrack

Well I'm sorry I dont buy that at all, this country needs as much tax revenue as it can get in the present climate, that's an absurd suggestion..the country is banjaxed so lets give those fortunate to have a job a tax-break?!! Anyway what would such a measure have on the current situation of an over supply of solicitors coupled with an economy thats doing poorly?

Again I'll reiterate that the LS is not to blame for the current situation we find ourselves in. It's you, me, the 12,000 on the Roll, every trainee and wannabe that is to blame. It's a collective thing. The LS have done their job in educating us and will continue to do so.

dats_right

McCrack wrote: »

The LS has no function and/or responsibility with this. What "info. advice and assistance" can the LS give trainees and newly qualified solrs. that we ourselves dont aleady know?

What utter tosh! According to the Law Society's own propaganda which states : "We are the educational, representative and regulatory body of the solicitors' profession in Ireland.

The Society has two functions:

1. works to improve access to the law generally and also provides representation, services and support for solicitors themselves

2. deals with complaints from the public about members of the profession and administers a statutory compensation fund."

The Law Society cannot take the cash from trainees and newly qualifieds and then wash their hands of all those who have or are likely to be let go! As their representative body the Society should be actively offering their service and support to these members in particular, remembering that this is one of the Society's fundamental functions.

Obviously, the Law Society cannot wave a magic wand and get every unemployed member a job, but for example they could run information seminars (without charging an arm and a leg) and more meaningful courses on things such as moving into new practice areas, setting up in practice, they should also be encouraging firms to take a more sustainable attitude towards trainees i.e. don't fire all your newly qualifieds just so you can give jobs to the next 20 smucks who want to train to be solicitors, as ultimately, such short sightednest serves nobody in the long run. The Society is paid for by its members, most of whom, don't consider that they get good value for money, but it is now time for the Society to be innovative and do all it can to come up with new ways of servicing and supporting the profession.

Think the same way a body like the IDA goes out to bat for Ireland Inc. abroad, the law society should be going out to bat for us, as it's members, rather than wasting our money on the Society's own self preservation or protecting its own interests at the expense of its members. Afterall, the Law Society is not about keeping snotty nosed administrative staff in jobs at Blackhall place, admittedly some of the plethora of whom are probably required, rather and it should not be forgotten, it is about servicing, supporting and representing us!!

Amazotheamazing

Interesting and all as this is, it's not answering the OP's question.

Johnny Utah

Legal Fool wrote: »

Geminiii in light of what you've just said re jobs for newly qualified I wonder if you might be able to advise me on my predicament. I'm currently in the middle of my training contract (due to qualify in april 2010) and i am having serious doubts as to whether this is really the career for me. I'm due to start PPC2 this April and fork out €5,000 in fees.

Given the way the economy is, lack of jobs etc I have been considering leaving my apprenticeship and changing careers. Do you think i should cut my losses now? Or would I be made to leave my training contract? I just dont know if i really want to work in law anyway when i qualify!

I responded to your thread in the work & jobs forum.

gavin3004

Anybody embarking on a career in law should accept the high risk of unemployment.

It is common knowledge that legal services is a declining business which is being increasingly commoditised coupled with massive oversupply.

It may sound harsh but the redundant and new qualified solicitors without jobs are now paying for their collective lack of vision and commercial awareness. As such they deserve what they get.

McCrack

Too simplistic, sorry.

gavin3004

Quite the opposite.

It is too simplistic, naive and financially irresponsible for students to pay huge sums of money with the knowledge that law is a saturated and declining industry.

Unemployed solicitors and newly qualified have no reason to complain or criticise.

If they are not astute enough to realise that the cost of qualifying as a solicitor is no longer economically viable then they must accept the consequences of the poor decision to invest time and money in obtaining the qualification.

Compare the situation with doctors: -

1. guaranteed a job at the end of training
2. high salary
3. final salary pension
4. no debt (medical students get a bursary to train)
5. Job security.

If law students want these benefit in their working life then they should have put more thought into their chosen career paths.

McCrack

No it's all too easy to say that now in the midst of a global recession. Hindsight is all well and good but I dont buy into it.

Qualification as a lawyer takes years, the current situation facing some lawyers has happened quite recently. As somebody that has invested time,money and effort into law I'm certainly not throwing in the towel and nor am I under pressure to.
A lot of the lawyers you refer to studied/qualified in boom time...I would not call them naive or financially irresponsible anymore than someone paying inflated property prices to jump on the property ladder when they are possibly in a current state of negative equity.

It's too easy for somebody now outside the profession to feel smug that lawyers seem to be having a hard time at present when they were supposedly creaming it during boom time, thats listening to the media and believing everything you read/hear. Unless you are in the profession I respectfully say that you really dont know what you are talking about.

It's swings and roundabouts.

gavin3004

Sorry but you are wrong, the decline of the legal profession started when conveyancing was opened up and was only temporarily arrested due to the work that was generated through irresponsible bank lending. This amount of irresponsible lending will not be repeated.

Any sensible person (i.e. obviously not lawyers) would not commit circa 10,000 for an course (LPC) without the guarantee of a job. That is utter madness.

The reason the legal profession is in decline is because the internet is offering much of the advice for free and services are being offered online for heavily reduced costs. That will only increase. You are deluded to think otherwise.

I'm not saying all firms will close but lots of them will. A prominent figure recently said in the gazette that society could easily cope with half the number of solicitors it currently has. Think about it.

Fundamentally society doesn't care about lawyers. They are seen as parasites and duplicitous. The fact that society doesn't care about lawyers matters. There is no pressure on Government to make legal aid pay or act in the interests of lawyers (contrast with health and education) because there are no votes in it.

In fact you may have heard Jack Straw confirming that legal rates are going down further still.

Eventually solicitors will be paid less than bin men. They are already paid less than senior teachers, doctors, train drivers etc............

gavin3004

You may not think that this is the case for city lawyers but overall it is.

If you look at the hours city lawyers are expected to work (usually they stay in the office well after 10pm) and divide the annual salary by those hours, you will find that the city lawyers hourly rate is about 12 pounds per hour.

For 12 pounds an hour it is not really worth the side effects to one health by working late.

I'm sure you will defend the decadent legal industry

TheDemiurge

The hammering away at solicitors is fundamentally designed to disenfranchise the public. The public are thick and buy into populist crap about solicitors being rich and parasites. They're too stupid to realise that a day might come when they need legal representation, and there won't be anyone there to help, because it's not cost efficient.

What's going on makes perfect sense.

Quaver

gavin3004 wrote: »

Anybody embarking on a career in law should accept the high risk of unemployment.

It is common knowledge that legal services is a declining business which is being increasingly commoditised coupled with massive oversupply.

It may sound harsh but the redundant and new qualified solicitors without jobs are now paying for their collective lack of vision and commercial awareness. As such they deserve what they get.

gavin3004, you could say the same about pretty much every profession at the moment. Off the top of my head, accountants are one example.

McCrack

gavin3004 wrote: »

Sorry but you are wrong, the decline of the legal profession started when conveyancing was opened up and was only temporarily arrested due to the work that was generated through irresponsible bank lending. This amount of irresponsible lending will not be repeated.

Any sensible person (i.e. obviously not lawyers) would not commit circa 10,000 for an course (LPC) without the guarantee of a job. That is utter madness.

The reason the legal profession is in decline is because the internet is offering much of the advice for free and services are being offered online for heavily reduced costs. That will only increase. You are deluded to think otherwise.

I'm not saying all firms will close but lots of them will. A prominent figure recently said in the gazette that society could easily cope with half the number of solicitors it currently has. Think about it.

Fundamentally society doesn't care about lawyers. They are seen as parasites and duplicitous. The fact that society doesn't care about lawyers matters. There is no pressure on Government to make legal aid pay or act in the interests of lawyers (contrast with health and education) because there are no votes in it.

In fact you may have heard Jack Straw confirming that legal rates are going down further still.

Eventually solicitors will be paid less than bin men. They are already paid less than senior teachers, doctors, train drivers etc............

There's no need to apologise for your opinions. Conveyancing in this jurisdiction has always and still is the preserve of solicitors so it has never been 'opened up' as you suggest. Licensed conveyancers exist in the UK but not here.

It the current economic climate it doesnt make sense to commit to PPC granted but that hundreds of unemployed or under-employed NQ solicitors would have committed that money during the boom time so your point that these solicitors were in someway thick is rather disingenuous and shows a lack of understanding.

I would not say the internet or sites such as this has in any way affected the decline business for the profession. Where are you getting that statement from? Remember "a man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client", it rings true time and time again and I've seen first hand the fallout when this happens and guess who picks up the pieces after the mess, the lawyer does.

The government are cutting legal aid fees by 8% on account of belt-tightening.

Finally re remuneration of what the 7,000 or so practicing solicitors in this State is what tells you thay are all earning less than the occupations you describe?

Pat Mustard

[quote=gavin3004;It is too simplistic, naive and financially irresponsible for students to pay huge sums of money with the knowledge that law is a saturated and declining industry.

Unemployed solicitors and newly qualified have no reason to complain or criticise.

If they are not astute enough to realise that the cost of qualifying as a solicitor is no longer economically viable then they must accept the consequences of the poor decision to invest time and money in obtaining the qualification.

Compare the situation with doctors: -

1. guaranteed a job at the end of training
2. high salary
3. final salary pension
4. no debt (medical students get a bursary to train)
5. Job security.

If law students want these benefit in their working life then they should have put more thought into their chosen career paths.[/quote]

The decadent fools. How bourgeois of them to entertain notions of joining the legal profession. They should have all predicted the global economic downturn, because, if not for that, they could simply seek employment elsewhere. And some of those other professionals; engineers, architects, surveyors and accountants. All twits really, isn't that it? They should all have become bus drivers while they had the chance. :rolleyes:

gavin3004

I can't speak for lawyers in the states but in the UK it's common knowledge that it is not worth the money to train.

There are much better returns in other industries. It takes 6 years (including training contract) at great cost.

It just is not worth the eventual salary.

The worse thing about solicitors is that everyone hates them.

I can't understand why anyone would work as a lawyer on relatively crap money knowing that people despise who you are. Lawyers are seen as having no morals as they change their views depending on who is paying them. No one respects that.

McCrack

Haha I'm finding your ignorance amusing. Also do you realise you are on an Irish public discussion forum?

Keep trolling.

Quaver

Not everyone goes into the legal profession for the money, in fact, most of them don't.

And everyone hates Solicitors?? wtf?? Does everyone hate the people in the DPPs office, and the State Solicitors who work at putting criminals in jail? Does everyone hate the Solicitor who got them their divorce from an abusive partner?

You seem to be making rather ridiculous generalisations without any proof to back them up.

Pat Mustard

gavin3004 wrote: »

I can't speak for lawyers in the states but in the UK it's common knowledge that it is not worth the money to train.

There are much better returns in other industries. It takes 6 years (including training contract) at great cost.

It just is not worth the eventual salary.

The worse thing about solicitors is that everyone hates them.

I can't understand why anyone would work as a lawyer on relatively crap money knowing that people despise who you are. Lawyers are seen as having no morals as they change their views depending on who is paying them. No one respects that.

Totally useless to the Original Poster, who is a newly qualified solicitor.

People hate lawyers. People hate the taxman. People hate taxi drivers. People hate bike couriers. People hate Gardai. Big swing. I imagine most lawyers are liked and respected by their own clients, the people that they help and work for. In fact, I remember once reading a newspaper poll that showed while lawyers were 'hated', most people liked their own lawyer. The opinion of some disappointed litigant on the opposing side of a lawsuit is hardly of much consequence to lawyers.

EC1000

gavin3004 wrote: »

the decline of the legal profession started when conveyancing was opened up.....

.....In fact you may have heard Jack Straw confirming that legal rates are going down further still.

Relevance to an IRISH discussion forum please?????

You also state that "everybody hates solicitors." Are you sure that shouldn't read "I hate solicitors" so think everybody feels the same way as I do....?

gavin3004

I don't think much of solicitors as you have gathered. I don't hate them but I think it's fair to say they are not though well of.

Social workers, teachers etc........... are considered heros and performing a genuine function for the advancement of society by comparison lawyers are considered parasites and having no useful function.

This may not be true in all cases but that is public perception.

Solicitors were held in high regard in the distant past but many changes have resulted in ill feeling toward them, notably the introduction of referral fees.

Pat Mustard

gavin3004 wrote: »

many changes have resulted in ill feeling toward them, notably the introduction of referral fees.

'Referral fees' indeed. In a word, nonsense.

What you are essentially saying is this (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong):

"Dear Original Poster, I see that you are a newly qualified solicitor who is looking for job-seeking advice in these turbulent times. I see that you have gone to much expense and effort to become a solicitor. I am an embittered lawyer-hater. Ergo, you are a fool."

Does that about hit the nail on the head?

McCrack

gavin3004 you have come onto this thread and made wild statements which when I and others have commented on you have avoided/ignored our replies. You are continuing to make general sweeping statements which have no basis.

You are clearly a troll with an axe to grind. Please take it somewhere else.

Amazotheamazing

gavin3004 wrote: »

teachers etc........... are considered heros and performing a genuine function for the advancement of society

Really, most people I know hold teachers in contempt, we must move in different crowds.

gavin3004

Well as you have all guessed I don't like lawyers but most people don't so that doesn't make me unique.

I'm just a little bemused that young get into substantial debt to enter the job market with the knowledge that it is over subscribed and over supplied and then wonder why there are no decent opportunities.

I just don't understand the mentality. Why is the newly qualified wondering what to do now. The newly qualified knew the risks before starting a "career" in law.

Most sensible people would take the view that paying substantial sums of money to enter an over supplied job market is utterly stupid and financially irresponsible. Excessive supply of Labour at a minimum leads to deflation of wages.

Can some one please explain why.

Quaver

There are risks before starting into any and every career, this is not unique to the legal profession.

As I said in a previous post, not everyone goes into this career for the money. Most of them don't.

And most trainee solicitors don't come out in loads of debt. Most of the big firms pay their fees, or else they get paid while on the PPC courses and can pay it off.

DJDC

What we are seeing in the Irish solicitor bubble is just another classic case of human pyschology. Everybody wants the well paid job and prestige, the search for "el dorado" if you will.

But the problem is the flood gates were opened and the classic laws of supply and demand kicked in. You had very average LC students going on to study law in the private colleges and then another stream of very average students studying it at postgraduate level after getting their mediocre arts degrees. The truth is law isnt difficult to learn and to pass exams at. The only reason for past prestige was the barriers of entry due to high LC points required to study law. Once you removed that, the prestige could never last. Now being a solictor is about as prestigious as being a binman.

Being a barrister is different however, the cream of the crop will still do well in that area and as a result it will retain its prestige.

gavin3004

Indeed, a solicitor in no longer prestigious.

There are simply too many.

My issue with the newly qualified is that the saturation is known but still students flock to the law like lemmings.

Is it the case that they are still deluded about obtaining a highly paid, secure and prestigious job. If that is the case wake up.

Amazotheamazing

DJDC wrote: »

Being a barrister is different however, the cream of the crop will still do well in that area and as a result it will retain its prestige.

disagree, the "cream" will do well in either branch of the profession, what we will see is more and more average people leaving both branches as the market will be flooded at their level. Same as anything else really.

EC1000

gavin3004 wrote: »

Indeed, a solicitor in no longer prestigious.

There are simply too many.

My issue with the newly qualified is that the saturation is known but still students flock to the law like lemmings.

Is it the case that they are still deluded about obtaining a highly paid, secure and prestigious job. If that is the case wake up.

I assume you are on the architecture, engineering, plumbing, carpentry and electrical (to name but a few careers that are also struggling) pages of this discussion board also informing those other lemmings of the same mistake that they have also made. In your view, is anyone who doesn't hold a public service job at the moment a lemming??

Sangre

If most of the general public hate me then I know I'm doing something right.

gavin3004

EC1000.

No, you are misunderstanding the context of my posts.

In contrast to other careers, it takes a very long time to qualify as a solicitor and it is also very expensive. Some do not get funding from law firms and for some reason decide it would be a good idea to self fund themselves.

What I am saying is that the time and expense is not justified when one looks at the opportunities and financial reward. Particularly legal aid solicitors.

The architects, engineers, plumbers, carpenters and electricians etc.....
incur much less cost and time to qualify, better opportunities (as they can more easily work for themselves or go abroad) better financial reward in a lot of cases and better appreciated. In the UK I know a plumber that makes between 8,000 and 10,000 per month.

My mum makes 150,000 per annum as a self employed nurse.

Solicitors do not make that kind of money (save for equity partners in large firms) and they never will in the future.

It is common sense. If students flock to the legal profession then this will deflate the wages and opportunities.

The public perceives careers in trade and public services to be less well paid compared with the legal profession (which is not true) but that perception results in oversupply of solicitors which in turn causes the problem.

It is kind of ironic that law students aspire to be advising businesses but most of them put no time into considering whether the cost and time of their own training is economically viable.

EC1000

Gavin, I suggest you do your research a little better on this subject.

Like it or not (and that is a whole other discussion) you can become a solicitor in 3 years. (FE1's followed by 30 month apprenticeship) - I know this because I'm doing it. Whether there are any jobs or not in it is a totally different discussion.

To become a plumber or any other trade takes 4 years. FACT.

Now can you please stop hi-jacking the OPs post and if you want to have ridiculous discussions on this topic start your own thread.

gavin3004

I did say that I can only speak for qualifying in the UK, so what I have said is true as far as the UK is concerned.

The market fundamentals are however the same for Ireland and the UK.

I agree, there little else to be said on the matter.

Good luck to all the newly qualified

gavin3004

EC1000

are you including the degree in that 3 year timescale?

_JOE_

gavin3004 wrote: »

EC1000

are you including the degree in that 3 year timescale?

I was thinking the same thing myself...they couldn't be, unless they were a law clerk...

2040

..in which case 5 years experience is needed.

Dante09

gavin3004 wrote: »

I can't speak for lawyers in the states but in the UK it's common knowledge that it is not worth the money to train.

There are much better returns in other industries. It takes 6 years (including training contract) at great cost.

It just is not worth the eventual salary.

The worse thing about solicitors is that everyone hates them.

I can't understand why anyone would work as a lawyer on relatively crap money knowing that people despise who you are. Lawyers are seen as having no morals as they change their views depending on who is paying them. No one respects that.

a) Learn to spell.
b) Your references to the LPC/costs of qualifying/training contracts all seem so suggest that you know quite a bit about the qualification process. Sounds to me like someone has failed to make it and is now taking out a little bit of anger on those of us who have/will.
c) Take your comments to rollonfriday, they'll be a lot more welcome there.

DJDC

Unemployment amongst law graduates is a global problem not just something that occurs in the UK and Ireland. There is a number of reasons for this, most noticeabley the significant mistmatch between the large droves of qualified law professionals and the available positions in the legal system for them to work. Another more subtle point, is that many law professionals tend to be quite poor at mathemathical subjects and hence find cross-over into more numerate areas like engineering,finance and IT difficult and challenging. It is an unfortunate reality that many of those with law degrees are destined to a life of low wages, low social status and minimal progression opportunities.

hada

DJDC wrote: »

Unemployment amongst law graduates is a global problem not just something that occurs in the UK and Ireland. There is a number of reasons for this, most noticeabley the significant mistmatch between the large droves of qualified law professionals and the available positions in the legal system for them to work. Another more subtle point, is that many law professionals tend to be quite poor at mathemathical subjects and hence find cross-over into more numerate areas like engineering,finance and IT difficult and challenging. It is an unfortunate reality that many of those with law degrees are destined to a life of low wages, low social status and minimal progression opportunities.

Well that's a sweeping statement if I ever saw one.

partyguinness

DJDC wrote: »

Unemployment amongst law graduates is a global problem not just something that occurs in the UK and Ireland. There is a number of reasons for this, most noticeabley the significant mistmatch between the large droves of qualified law professionals and the available positions in the legal system for them to work. Another more subtle point, is that many law professionals tend to be quite poor at mathemathical subjects and hence find cross-over into more numerate areas like engineering,finance and IT difficult and challenging. It is an unfortunate reality that many of those with law degrees are destined to a life of low wages, low social status and minimal progression opportunities.

And if they were good at maths, they would have entered the IT, finance, engineering professions...:rolleyes:

What a statemtent...:eek:

Personally I am not aware of any law graduates crossing over into finance or maths based subjects.

I have 3 law degress and yes maths was not my best subject (although I got a C3 in Honours for my Leaving Cert which is a hell of a lot better than most and an A2 in Honours English).

My best friend who is now a Maths teacher would help me with math homework but he was crap at business studies and did pass English. I helped him with Business Studies.

Now he is a math teacher earning €37k a year..and I earn €62k pa..go figure

Those who are good at English, history, politics and reading tend to enter law...

How many IT, engineering or finance graduates in politics compared to law graduates? No comparison.

How many US Presidents, UK PM, significant political leaders are lawyers by profession?

Barak Obama
Nelson Mandela,
Gandhi,
Bill Clinton,
Tony Blair,
Martin Luther King,
Wolfe Tone
Mary Robinson
Mary McAleese
Brian Cowan
Dermot Ahern
Michael McDowell
Willie O'Dea
John O'Donoughue
Anthony O'Reilly
Des O'Malley
Peter Sutherland

I could go on and on..

(just a very small example of people with poor maths skills and destined for a life of low social status....:D)

Now show me the IT or Engineering 'hero' that we all heard of...:)

Amazotheamazing

partyguinness wrote: »

How many US Presidents, UK PM, significant political leaders are lawyers by profession?

Barak Obama
Nelson Mandela,
Gandhi,
Bill Clinton,
Tony Blair,
Martin Luther King,
Wolfe Tone
Mary Robinson
Mary McAleese
Brian Cowan
Dermot Ahern
Michael McDowell
Willie O'Dea
John O'Donoughue
Anthony O'Reilly
Des O'Malley
Peter Sutherland

I could go on and on..

(just a very small example of people with poor maths skills and destined for a life of low social status....:D)

Now show me the IT or Engineering 'hero' that we all heard of...:)

The reason being that the above people have had the good sense to escape the law....