cost of web development

conorgriff · 07-01-2009 6:49pm #1

Hi all, can anyone give me a ballpark figure for what you'd expect to pay for a simple 3/4 page website with a basic layout. It's just for advertising a service so there'll be no ecommerce, not even a database. No flash, just basic html, css and possibly some very minor javascript effects for polish?

figure is to exclude hosting and domain name costs, I just want to get an idea of the cost of coding the site

brianwalshcork · 07-01-2009 7:01pm

Hi ConorGriff,

If it really is a simple as you suggest, and you don't need custom artwork etc, then the easiest thing to do would be to use a predesigned template, you can buy these online from anything from free to 100 euros. Using this it shouldn't take very much time if you supply all the required text and other info.

I wouldn't pay more than 200 - 250 euros to customise the site with your info using the template and get it online etc.

Getting someone to do it for this price might not be so easy though.

Brian

The Mighty Ken · 07-01-2009 7:04pm

As brianwalshcork says, if you're not looking for a professional job then you could buy a template for €100 or thereabouts and get someone to populate it with your content and customise it with your branding for a couple of hundred €.

A professional bespoke design and coded to best practice would be considerably more expensive.

EKRIUQ · 07-01-2009 7:05pm

Providing you have your own domain and hosting, I'd go with the above if it's as basic as you say. Probably about a days work including phone calls a editing and drafts.

But most professional web developers won't really want to put there name to that.

cmcsoft · 07-01-2009 7:07pm

If you're anyway handy at html you could go the template route.

Otherwise for a basic website with no marketing / hosting / domain name you should be able to get something for €250 - €350 if you want a template design site.

conorgriff · 07-01-2009 7:14pm

Cheers guys, is going down the route of a CMS a good idea?

I've heard of Joomla but haven't used it. Basically this is a site for a friend who's budget is small so he just wants a basic site. I've done some web design but not commercially so I'm trying to help him out. Thing is I've always coded it myself from scratch so I'm not familiar with the template driven design solutions.

Can anyone suggest the most appropriate solution? I can deal with CSS, HTML and JS but don't fancy spending a few weeks working around browser bugs with CSS for every hour of my spare time. If a proven template driven site can look good then I'm all for it. Some examples would be great...

The Mighty Ken · 07-01-2009 7:18pm

A CMS is only really necessary if the cost of ongoing site maintenance overshadows the cost of building and implementing the CMS. However, you're going to need someone to do it for you and it requires some experience/knowledge to do it properly. I wouldn't recommend Joomla... it's not the best. Expression Engine is quite good or Drupal if you need something more powerful and extensible (although it has a bigger learning curve).

cmcsoft · 07-01-2009 7:23pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

A CMS is only really necessary if the cost of ongoing site maintenance overshadows the cost of building and implementing the CMS. However, you're going to need someone to do it for you and it requires some experience/knowledge to do it properly. I wouldn't recommend Joomla... it's not the best. Expression Engine is quite good or Drupal if you need something more powerful and extensible (although it has a bigger learning curve).

I'd have to agree here. Drupal is decent but takes a bit of time to get used to. You can get templates on the web using html and css. It sounds like the best option for you to be honest if you have experience with these already

conorgriff · 07-01-2009 7:38pm

should have said, I'm comfortable enough with php too, dunno if that opens any doors...

The Mighty Ken · 07-01-2009 7:51pm

conorgriff wrote: »

should have said, I'm comfortable enough with php too, dunno if that opens any doors...

Well it'll make life a lot easier if you wanted to implement Drupal, Joomla or Expression Engine which are all open source PHP systems.

Come to think of it, if it's just a basic CMS solution you're looking for then WordPress might be just the ticket. Very easy to install and customise. Plus there are tonnes of pre-designed skins available for it. Some of the paid ones are really nice.

07-01-2009 9:56pm

Well, the question is really this. How many times do you think the content of the site would be updated in over the course of the year. If it's less than 5, you don't need a CMS. it's certainly cheaper to get a site without a CMS.

Decided what's neccessary for your service & spend the money there. Perhaps a really strong visual design is important, or having some great email marketing software, or maybe just go cheap on everything and spend money on a Google Adwords campaign.

Try figure out your needs and you'll hopefully avoid wasting money.

Skadi · 07-01-2009 9:56pm

I've done websites for friends. In my experience you are best supplying them with some simple cms so that they will update and change minor text details themselves.

Try the tiny_mce editor (wysiwyg editor which is customisable) and if you are okay with php i would just add the text to a mysql database and have your webpages pull the information from the database. (i have this code for a website I did so if you are interested PM me. It probably needs a little bit of javascript work to get it fool-proof but the guy i did it for is happy with it.)

Using this editor is similiar to making a forum post and most people are familiar and comfortable doing this. Also if you do have to update text for them it is much faster than having to make changes to the html page and the upload it to the site again.

using joomla or drupal is okay, but many non-techie people are put off by the thought of having to learn something in order to update their own site. Putting in a little extra time now could save you time in the future.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 1:10am

And therein lies the problem with the original post. within 4 or 5 posts it's gone from being a simple 3/4 page site to being a CMS or database-driven site.

pauldiv · 08-01-2009 10:13am

You need to get back to what you said originally about the site being used to advertise a service. All this talk about CMS's is leading you astray because what you are trying to do should be kept very simple.

You only need a few pages right?
A service needs to appear professional and business like.
You should be thinking about the design and copy.
Design is your image and the words are what makes people pick up the phone.

You can get polished free site templates from Open Source Web Design. There are tons of them and they validate, work in all grade 1 browsers and are almost ready to go. You also need a contact form so you could use the FormMail script. It's PHP and wiring up is simple.

Have you done basic branding that covers the site, letterheads, and business cards?

I feel that you could end up with a much better site if you think about the graphic design and copywriting rather than having to learn all the technical nuts and bolts of how to set up a CMS.

It the site is going to be as simple as you say it is then it will only take you a few minutes to make changes using notepad and filezilla.

You would have a hard time finding anyone to do a really nice job for less than €300.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 10:19am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And therein lies the problem with the original post. within 4 or 5 posts it's gone from being a simple 3/4 page site to being a CMS or database-driven site.

It's always the way!

To be honest, if you're looking for something cheap and nasty then there's a way to do it but don't expect any real results. If you want a professional bespoke job done, then you're going to need upwards of €4,000 to get the whole kit and kaboodle professionally done.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 11:53am

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

If you want a professional bespoke job done, then you're going to need upwards of €4,000 to get the whole kit and kaboodle professionally done.

That's only if you use an Irish developer though.

Conorgriff: consider outsourcing your work on website like www.scriptlance.com. You will save yourself a few thousand euros. I know a number of professional websites (such as a very famous Irish jobsite) which uses outsourcing for everything and they save themselves a fortune.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 11:56am

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's only if you use an Irish developer though.

Conorgriff: consider outsourcing your work on website like www.scriptlance.com. You will save yourself a few thousand euros. I know a number of professional websites (such as a very famous Irish jobsite) which uses outsourcing for everything and they save themselves a fortune.

Again, just make sure you're getting value for your money if you do this. In most cases, you get what you pay for. The odd time, you may get a really good job done really cheap but these projects are few and far between.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 2:16pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Again, just make sure you're getting value for your money if you do this. In most cases, you get what you pay for. The odd time, you may get a really good job done really cheap but these projects are few and far between.

Foreign workers are just as capable as Irish people. They just have cheaper wages.

I've been involved in outsourcing for many years and it is excellent value.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 2:24pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Foreign workers are just as capable as Irish people. They just have cheaper wages.

Can you post any links to overseas countries that produce quality Web design? Or PM me if it's against the forum charter. I remember having this debate before on here and, despite someone making the same claim you've made above, the fact of the matter is that the quality of Web design simply doesn't exist in these emerging economies. That's not to say that the majority of designers in Ireland aren't s**t mind... but that's another story.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I've been involved in outsourcing for many years and it is excellent value.

The majority of times I've outsourced or watched a client or potential client outsource, it's always been a travesty to be honest.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 2:40pm

Ireland is the only country which can produce quality web design...? Give me a break.

I'm not going to argue with someone who has that sort of mentality, so let's just leave it at that.

OP: don't let Irish web developers trick you into thinking you have to use an Irish company. Outsourcing is cheap and it works. By all means use an Irish company if you want, but don't dismiss outsourcing.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 2:50pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ireland is the only country which can produce quality web design...? Give me a break.

Sorry, I was talking about emerging economies where it's significantly cheaper to outsource to - e.g. India and Pakistan who seem to be the most prolific.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with someone who has that sort of mentality, so let's just leave it at that.

No. I won't leave it at that. My point was that a lot of the emerging economies aren't producing professional quality Web design at knock down prices!

Before you go off on retarded slur about me being a racist/xenophobe or that I'm trying to set up some sort of protectorate for indigenous industry, all I'm asking is that you show me a few of these cheap companies that are producing quality work. A few links will do. If they exist it should be easy enough to find them as, you know, Web agencies generally have websites. Proof is all I'm asking for basically. Hell, I'll even send a load of work their way!

AARRRGH wrote: »

OP: don't let Irish web developers trick you into thinking you have to use an Irish company. Outsourcing is cheap and it works. By all means use an Irish company if you want, but don't dismiss outsourcing.

"Trick"? Who's "tricking" anyone? People who outsource on the cheap regularly get burned. Not always I'm sure, but very regularly. That's not a lie or a "trick" - that's a fact. Now I'm only speaking from personal experience but I've been in the industry a long time so I feel I'm probably more qualified to make this statement than you are.

Anyway. Prove me wrong.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 2:52pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ireland is the only country which can produce quality web design...? Give me a break.

No-one said that. He just asked for links and examples.

OP: don't let Irish web developers trick you into thinking you have to use an Irish company.

But likewise, if you're of the mentality that it's a "trick", then don't expect the Irish web developers or anyone else to look at your site and say "I'll buy that TV from them" or "I'll hire that plumber".......

They'll probably just buy or hire from abroad - because, like you said, it's cheaper and you can (if you're lucky) get a similar result. So regardless of your arguments that YOUR costs are higher too, your spanking new cheap website will be pointless when you go out of business because people in other countries are cheaper and people will come onto boards.ie and recommend that people use them instead of you.

Will you be able to convince YOUR prospective clients that having local support, guarantee and native English-speaking staff are important factors as to why they shouldn't buy abroad ? Hardly, if you don't believe it / follow it through yourself.

Bummer when a mentality bites your own ass, isn't it ? :rolleyes:

Outsourcing is cheap and it works.....don't dismiss outsourcing

And likewise, don't dismiss an Irish company. Can you sit down beside the outsourcer and chat about the project ? Can you thrash out ALL your requirements ? Will your requirements be understood or lost in a language barrier ? Will future updates be a pain because all the comments are in Polish ?

There are plenty of options, but weigh up ALL the factors (not just cost) and make the right decision based on that.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:03pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No-one said that. He just asked for links and examples.

The Mighty Ken wrote:

Can you post any links to overseas countries that produce quality Web design?

He then clarifies with:

The Mighty Ken wrote:

fact of the matter is that the quality of Web design simply doesn't exist in emerging economies

That's just ridiculous thinking. HTML, CSS and graphic design can be learnt, taught and applied anywhere.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But likewise, if you're of the mentality that it's a "trick", then don't expect the Irish web developers or anyone else to look at your site and say "I'll buy that TV from them" or "I'll hire that plumber".......

You've lost me on that one.

What I was saying is Irish web developers, or people with a vested interest, may be dishonest, just like The Mighty Ken is - he is suggesting using anything other than an Irish web developer will most likely result in failure.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Will you be able to convince YOUR prospective clients that having local support, guarantee and native English-speaking staff are important factors as to why they shouldn't buy abroad ? Hardly, if you don't believe it / follow it through yourself.

You're losing me again.

The OP wants a small website. His prospective clients won't give a damn who made the website for him.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And likewise, don't dismiss an Irish company. Can you sit down beside the outsourcer and chat about the project ? Can you thrash out ALL your requirements ? Will your requirements be understood or lost in a language barrier ? Will future updates be a pain because all the comments are in Polish ?

Oh, there are advantages to using Irish companies, but if budget is an issue, outsourcing is the way to go.

I've outsourced projects for many years now (10 years?) and language has never been an issue. Everything is done in English, exactly as specified.

I don't want to argue with anyone, but it is dishonest to knock outsourcing because you are an Irish web developer.

Admit you have a vested interest and the OP can make up his own mind.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:10pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

He then clarifies with... blah, blah, blah

Listen, just post a few links to some cheap overseas companies producing professional, quality Web design to prove your point. That's all that's being asked. Can't, can you? Didn't think so. Now, back on topic...

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:14pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Listen, just post a few links to some cheap overseas companies producing professional, quality Web design to prove your point. That's all that's being asked. Can't, can you? Didn't think so. Now, back on topic...

Do a Google search for "outsourcing". You will find thousands of companies offering professional, quality Web design.

It is a huge industry, and extremely successful.

I understand you feel very threatened by it, but you're going to need a better argument if you're going to win anyone over to your way of thinking.

Btw, I am an Irish web developer. I have nothing to gain by being honest.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:19pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Do a Google search for "outsourcing". You will find thousands of companies offering professional, quality Web design.

I've tried and I haven't found any that are producing what I would consider to be professional quality work. I would like you to post a few links prove your point. You obviously have lots of experience outsourcing so please - pretty please with sugar on top - just post a few URL's.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I understand you feel very threatened by it, but you're going to need a better argument if you're going to win anyone over to your way of thinking.

Threatened by outsourcing? The reason I'm asking you to post links is because I would gladly outsource a tonne of design work if I could find an overseas company that were producing quality creative. I can't find any such companies and I'm asking you to point them out to me seeing as how you're so sure that they exist.

*bangs head off wall*

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 3:25pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

What I was saying is Irish web developers, or people with a vested interest, may be dishonest, just like The Mighty Ken is - he is suggesting using anything other than an Irish web developer will most likely result in failure.

What does that have to do with your argument ? I also must have missed you saying that earlier, because you only mentioned "cheaper", not "more honest".

Plus, surely ANYONE "may be dishonest" ? Where's the stats to show that outsourcers are somehow "more honest" ?

Also, stop misquoting. Ken didn't suggest that "using anything other than an Irish web developer will most likely result in failure". He raised concerns, just as I did, and actually asked for examples, and if you'd given them, I presume he'd have accepted them.

Put it this way : if someone offered you a span-new car that cost €1,200, would you reject it as "too good to be true" ? Would you expect it do work properly ?

AARRRGH wrote: »

You're losing me again.

The OP wants a small website. His prospective clients won't give a damn who made the website for him.

Never said that. What I was saying is that if the OP's prospective clients had the same mentality as you do, they wouldn't buy Irish either, so the site would be pointless.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Oh, there are advantages to using Irish companies, but if budget is an issue, outsourcing is the way to go.

Prove it. Show me a couple of quotes that are significantly different for the same spec that deliver the same quality result.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I've outsourced projects for many years now (10 years?) and language has never been an issue. Everything is done in English, exactly as specified.

Can't say a lot, but I've experience of small changes being required and having to wade through Polish comments in order to figure out where the hell to make the changes. FACT.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't want to argue with anyone, but it is dishonest to knock outsourcing because you are an Irish web developer.

Kettle, pot! It's dishonest to knock outsourcing, but it's perfectly OK to blanket-label Irish web developers as "dishonest" people who are out to "trick" you ??

Everything I mentioned above IS A FACTOR; I didn't say they WOULD happen, but you're touting outsourcing as the answer to everything with no problems. Just as it would with an Irish company, it depends on who you get.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Admit you have a vested interest and the OP can make up his own mind.

Even more kettle, pot, because:

AARRRGH wrote: »

I've been involved in outsourcing for many years and it is excellent value.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:29pm

Your arrogance and dishonesty is very unpleasant.

Just to shut you up, here's the first result I found in Google: http://e-design.com.ua/Default.aspx

I can provide a thousand more examples.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:30pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He raised concerns, just as I did, and actually asked for examples, and if you'd given them, I presume he'd have accepted them.

I would have indeed. Although I suspect all this conjecture and bulls**t is going to amount to nothing so either show me some cheap overseas companies producing quality Web creative or GTFO.

I can see where you get your username, AARRRGH!

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 3:30pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Btw, I am an Irish web developer. I have nothing to gain by being honest.

Huh ? How can you survive as an Irish web developer if you tell people that Irish web developers are dishonest and outsourcers are cheaper ?

Aside from that you're now describing yourself as "an Irish web developer [who's] honest", while earlier you suggested that Irish web developers were dishonest.

And a question : if you describe yourself to a potential client as a developer, and take on their site, do they know you're outsourcing ? Are you honest enough to tell them ?

Because I know many (client, not developers) companies that wouldn't accept that. And that's THEIR stance, not mine. I've gotten clients as a result.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 3:33pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your arrogance and dishonesty is very unpleasant.

Whose ? I'm just stating facts and shooting down unproven generalisations. If you view that as arrogant, then that's your problem.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Just to shut you up, here's the first result I found in Google: http://e-design.com.ua/Default.aspx

Why did you have to Google them ?

You said you'd been involved in outsourcing for years, so surely you can point us to those outsourcers you have dealt with yourself and also show us the results that they achieved for you ?

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:34pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your arrogance and dishonesty is very unpleasant.

Put the handbags away.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Just to shut you up, here's the first result I found in Google: http://e-design.com.ua/Default.aspx

That's crap mate.

Anyway, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Best of luck to you.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:34pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Huh ? How can you survive as an Irish web developer if you tell people that Irish web developers are dishonest and outsourcers are cheaper ?

Will you please read my posts, or at least stop taking me out of context.

I said any Irish web developer who claims you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing is being dishonest.

And a question : if you describe yourself to a potential client as a developer, and take on their site, do they know you're outsourcing ? Are you honest enough to tell them ?

I don't sneakily outsource work, claiming it was done in Ireland. I manage outsourced projects if the company wants it outsourced.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:36pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

That's crap mate.

Anyway, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Best of luck to you.

Are you for real?

Did you look at their portfolio?

They are excellent.

But of course, you were always going to say they were crap, weren't you?

I agree you should stop posting, you're making a fool of yourself.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:37pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I said any Irish web developer who claims you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing is being dishonest.

Are you saying I'm dishonest because I can't find the standard I'm looking for in overseas companies? Despite the fact that I would gladly outsource work to them if I could?

Clueless. Go snatch a purse.

codecrunchers · 08-01-2009 3:37pm

CMSMadeSimple is my ten cents on the CMS. But you don't sound like you need one. What you're looking for is a a start-up, a company eager to get some work in. There are a multitude of them operating in Ireland (and elsewhere) - get a quote, knock a little off and see if they are still eager.

If you're happy with PHP, HTML, CSS & JS then I can't see why you don't stick it together yourself, a little Googling and time you should be up and running.

Alan

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:37pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why did you have to Google them ?

To prove it is simple to find companies who offer quality outsourcing.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You said you'd been involved in outsourcing for years, so surely you can point us to those outsourcers you have dealt with yourself and also show us the results that they achieved for you ?

I'd rather not get my employers/contractors involved in this childish conversation.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:39pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Are you saying I'm dishonest because I can't find the standard I'm looking for in overseas companies? Despite the fact that I would gladly outsource work to them if I could?

Clueless. Go snatch a purse.

Stop lying, seriously, no matter what evidence I provide you will say it's crap. It's obvious to everyone that is the case.

I don't want to argue with you, as it is pointless.

The OP can make up his own mind.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:40pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

They are excellent...

Let's leave it at that shall we.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:43pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Let's leave it at that shall we.

You are Ken Stanley, right? Judging from your portfolio, you cannot compete with them. You need a reality check.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:45pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

You are Ken Stanley, right? Judging from your portfolio, you cannot compete with them. You need a reality check.

What portfolio?

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 3:45pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Will you please read my posts, or at least stop taking me out of context.

I said any Irish web developer who claims you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing is being dishonest.

No, you said:

AARRRGH wrote: »

don't let Irish web developers trick you into thinking you have to use an Irish company

The implication is that "Irish web developers" are out to "trick" people.

Incidentally, re misquoting, Ken said:

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

The odd time, you may get a really good job done really cheap but these projects are few and far between.

So even Ken - who's highlighted the fact that cheap is not necessarily good (FACT, regardless of outsourcing or not), has not said "you cannot get quality web design from outsourcing".

I'll repeat his quote : you may get a really good job done really cheap.

And you still imply that he's being dishonest ?

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 3:48pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'd rather not get my employers/contractors involved in this childish conversation.

Despite the fact that the general gist of that aspect of the discussion is "I don't know of any quality outsourcers, do you know any ?"

If it were me and the standard and pricing were as good as you say, I'd be glad of the referral.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 3:48pm

@Ken: this is you, right? http://www.magenta-three.com/

@Liam: you are taking me and Ken out of context. You need to read the entire posts to see his tone is "outsourcing is crap" and my tone is "it is dishonest to say that". You have to keep our quotes in context. And I don't want to bring my employer and contractors into it. Can you just accept all this and move on?

I think we've all said enough. The OP can make up his mind!

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 3:57pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

@Ken: this is you, right? http://www.magenta-three.com/

That's the company I work for. If you don't like the work, that's entirely your prerogative. A little subjectivity would help.

AARRRGH wrote: »

you are taking me and Ken out of context. You need to read the entire posts to see his tone is "outsourcing is crap"

No, you're taking me out of context. I'm completely open to outsourcing and I'm asking you (begging you at this stage actually) to prove me wrong. In your 10 years experience with outsourcing, surely you must know a few companies that are doing quality work at good rates. Why not show us who they are? I'm not asking because I want to go on some tirade... as I said, I'd be more than happy to send work their way. You seem to be completely missing my point here - which is that I haven't been able to find sufficient creative quality in any of these overseas companies. I'm not saying they don't exist. I just can't find them.

AARRRGH wrote: »

And I don't want to bring my employer and contractors into it.

You're happy to bring mine into it. Let's have a little transparency shall we? Who do you work for?

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think we've all said enough.

Probably.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 4:01pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

@Liam: you are taking me and Ken out of context. You need to read the entire posts to see his tone is "outsourcing is crap" and my tone is "it is dishonest to say that". You have to keep our quotes in context. And I don't want to bring my employer and contractors into it.

I can see where you're coming from, but (a) Ken isn't as blinkered as you're implying (see quote above) and (b) outsourcing isn't the perfect answer to everything - there are as many, if not more, issues that CAN go wrong.

I'm not saying nothing goes wrong when using Irish companies, but likewise you need to accept that outsourcing isn't the bed of roses that you're making it out to be either.

Cost is only one factor, and you generally get what you pay for. If overheads are lower abroad, then costs should be lower, but you still need to be damn sure of decent results.

That's why I wanted links to ACTUAL outsourcers that YOU'VE dealt with and are happy with, and ideas of the costs in order to compare them to myself or other Irish web designers/developers to achieve the same result. There's no point linking to outsourcers no-one here has dealt with, no-one knows the prices of, or no-one knows the results of; whether they'll allow for expansion and scalability as a site evolves, whether they'll be using templates that they could sell to someone else, whether later "add-ons" would cost a fortune despite a tiny initial outlay.

Yes, all these could apply to some Irish companies too; so basically what I'm saying is that you need to compare like with like, and if THEN everything else is equal you CAN go with the lower cost.

So if Ken is guilty of simplifying it a bit by implying "outsourcing is usually bad", you're equally guilty of generalising "outsourcing is usually good and cheaper for the same result".

No witch-hunt, no arrogance. Just the facts of the matter.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:03pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

A little subjectivity would help.

Look who's talking! :pac:

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

No, you're taking me out of context. I'm completely open to outsourcing and I'm asking you (begging you at this stage actually) to prove me wrong. In your 10 years experience with outsourcing, surely you must know a few companies that are doing quality work at good rates.

I provided a link to an excellent outsourcing company which you dismissed immediately.

Do you want me to provide more links?

I get the feeling though that no matter what I say, you'll always think they're crap.

We've had this conversation many times over the past few years.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

You're happy to bring mine into it. Let's have a little transparency shall we? Who do you work for?

You are the one claiming you can't find the quality your own company supposedly offers, hence why it makes sense to link to your website.

I am claiming outsourcing offers quality, and I linked to an example.

My employer is irrelevant.

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Probably.

I agree.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:04pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's why I wanted links to ACTUAL outsourcers that YOU'VE dealt with and are happy with, and ideas of the costs in order to compare them to myself or other Irish web designers/developers to achieve the same result.

I won't be continuing this debate until he does so to be honest as the guy 1) hasn't proven his point at all and 2) seems to be hell bent on attacking me personally. Troll tbh.

The Mighty Ken · 08-01-2009 4:05pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Do you want me to provide more links?

Yes. See Liam's point above.

AARRRGH · 08-01-2009 4:06pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

I won't be continuing this debate until he does so to be honest as the guy 1) hasn't proven his point at all and 2) seems to be hell bent on attacking me personally. Troll tbh.

I'm a troll because I've proved you wrong? Seriously, will you get a grip.

My own contractors are irrelavant, but I assure you they are excellent. I would not have this opinion if they were crap.

Liam Byrne · 08-01-2009 4:06pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I provided a link to an excellent outsourcing company which you dismissed immediately.

How do you know they're "excellent" (to work with, their results) if you've never dealt with them ? Have you spoken to their clients ?

You said you "did a quick Google search" and they came up.

If I do a quick Google search for a car mechanic, and get one I know nothing about, could I post here that they are "excellent" ?

AARRRGH wrote: »

My own contractors are irrelavant, but I assure you they are excellent

They aren't because they're the ones that you've experience of and would therefore back up your argument and make it bulletproof. We could then accept your assessment of them.

Mind you, if you use the word "excellent" for a company you just found on Google an hour ago with no knowledge of working with them, it would appear to dilute your use of that word.

cost of web development

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