Rip of Public Service

Blue-sky

Teachers... Who needs them

What more can you say about our wonderful teachers. Where would Ireland be without these icons of humble modesty. Hmmmmm let me think. How about this..Teachers are the most under worked overpaid parasitic whingers in the Irish state. Yep that sounds about right. Consider the long long days these poor dears have to work, 9am to 3pm or even 4pm ( gasps of incredulity). How do they do it, how can they sustain such selfless commitment day in day out. But wait there's worse, teachers are actually expected to work almost 26 weeks a year. I kid you not, the inhumanity of it is mind boggling. If we were talking about animals there would no doubt be a national outcry. Joe Duffy would be inundated with calls from "very concerned citizens" about the plight of these poor creatures.

Is it not repugnant to hear these self regarding, pompous whingers crying about the poor children in relation to the latest round of education cut backs. But "The Children The Children, what about the poor children" is the hypocritical cry from teachers union reptiles. However try make one suggestion, however minor, that may improve the lot of children but crucially would involve these paragons of hypocrisy having to cede a single millimetre of their God given rights. Make that suggestion and remember to duck as the airwaves are engulfed with a tsunami of indignant bile from these wasters.

Pay them for the hours they work, not a cent more. Review their performance and crucially their pupils development. If its found wanting, retrain them, if performance continues to be sub par ( or as we say in the real world -they are incompetent ) then simply sack them.

Like all Public Servants in this Kip of a country, teachers have been riding 'real' nett tax payers for far too long. Its time to put these particular parasites back in their box.

kippy

Nice rant but pointless.
How do you suggest improving the situation in a realistic manner?



*I do not agree with the comments of the OP in any way*

grahamo

Teachers have to put up with kids all day. Believe me its not easy !

cooperla

I have one close friend who is a teacher.

I can say he deserves every cent he gets. He's always the first in the building (by 7:30AM) each morning, never leaves before 6PM, spends time at home correcting assignments and writing new exams, and actively volunteers to help out in any events (sporting and otherwise). He is eligible for retirement but doesn't want to retire because he loves his job (Every August he'll start preparing material to go back to school). He also figures that all in all he's paid enough. He doesn't get along with the other teachers because he says all they do is moan about everything - money, students, etc. Many students still send him Christmas cards years after graduating. I'm guessing he's definitely in the minority.

My personal observations over the years is that there's too many people teaching who don't want to be there - and that's no good for anyone.

I think students should all have to fill out surveys about their teachers.... I'd love to see those reviews!!!

Blue-sky

kippy wrote: »

Nice rant but pointless.
How do you suggest improving the situation in a realistic manner?



There are no doubt many worthy individuals within the teaching profession. I have no quarrel with individuals good bad or indifferent. My quarrel is with the consensus., the received wisdom that public Servants and in particular teachers are de facto untouchable and ‘Entitled‘.
Untouchable in every regard, be it salary, conditions, entitlements, performance, accountability, pensions, absence ad naseum. By every recognised performance metric these ‘groups’ live in a parallel world to the rest of us where normal laws of common sense and realistic dialogue do not exist. They do not create or generate wealth, they simply consume disproportionate quantity’s of resources. Realistic solutions are appropriate in realistic situations, unfortunately there is nothing realistic about the Irish Public Service, it is positively surreal in its excess.

the groutch

anyone who thinks that teachers only work the hours that they are actually in the classroom teaching is dillusional

Nody

cooperla wrote: »

II think students should all have to fill out surveys about their teachers.... I'd love to see those reviews!!!

I would not because then we get teachers who'll give top grades to everyone for good reviews. What is really needed is teachers to stop easing the teaching and instead require students to you know, study and require to meet a minimum standard which is not lowered all the time.

Blue-sky

"anyone who thinks that teachers only work the hours that they are actually in the classroom teaching is dillusional"


I'll take delusional before disingenuous. Taken as a whole the hours they are in the class room are quite meagre by any measure. Lets be generous and allow an additional 25% of hours worked through extra curricular activities or otherwise. Teachers would still in general be considered part time workers across the spectrum of professions.

kippy

Blue-sky wrote: »

kippy wrote: »

Nice rant but pointless.
How do you suggest improving the situation in a realistic manner?



There are no doubt many worthy individuals within the teaching profession. I have no quarrel with individuals good bad or indifferent. My quarrel is with the consensus., the received wisdom that public Servants and in particular teachers are de facto untouchable and ‘Entitled‘.
Untouchable in every regard, be it salary, conditions, entitlements, performance, accountability, pensions, absence ad naseum. By every recognised performance metric these ‘groups’ live in a parallel world to the rest of us where normal laws of common sense and realistic dialogue do not exist. They do not create or generate wealth, they simply consume disproportionate quantity’s of resources. Realistic solutions are appropriate in realistic situations, unfortunately there is nothing realistic about the Irish Public Service, it is positively surreal in its excess.

Your grasp of reality is slipping a little.
There are issues in the irish public service, no doubt, as there are with any public service in any country. In fact, I think if you do your research you will find that the Irish Public Service are actually one of the lowest funded per capita in the EU. Thats not an excuse, things can and should be improved. The synopis of the OECD report here: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_101348.shtml mentions some very interesting statistics and facts.
From a personal point of view I can see where improvements can be made in the public service in general, as I believe can any right thinking person, however the parocial nature of Irish politics, Unions, and a general lack of leadership and foresight makes any improvements very hard to make.
Your comments in relation to "Creating and generating wealth" are strange to say the least. Do you think that everyone working in the private sector creates and generates wealth in a tangable way? If so who is this wealth for?
You'll see in that OECD report I linked to there are comments in relation to industry in Ireland. A serious amount of money on an anual basis is repatriated to the home countries of the major companies that operate out of Ireland. This is in essence a very very bad thing for the country. Over the years Government and some of the public service (state agencies) have failed to dramaticilly increase the amount of Irish people working for Irish companies, which is essentially something we should be aiming to do more and more.

Back to teachers, your rant is ill advised.....
If you've ever spent any length of time in a classroom with up to 30 kids of any age or any length of time teaching then I think you are qualified to talk about that particuliar profession. I can only assume, based on your lack of understanding of the profession that you haven't. There are a number of people in the profession who so very obviously shouldnt be there, the same as any. Having been around national school teachers for the past 10 years or so, I can tell you that the ones I know are a dedicitated hard working bunch who deserve everything they get. If you believe the job is so good I think you should consider a career in it.


Times are tough, indeed and jobs and wages will decrease across all sectors including the public sector. I fully expect that. We need some foresight and intelligence from those in decision making areas to ensure that our educated population are put to us and that Irish startups with decent business plans and products and services are given every help they can to get going.....

Kippy

old boy

why do you not become a teacher, then enjoy all their perks,

Blue-sky

kippy wrote: »

Blue-sky wrote: »

Your grasp of reality is slipping a little.
There are issues in the irish public service, no doubt, as there are with any public service in any country. In fact, I think if you do your research you will find that the Irish Public Service are actually one of the lowest funded per capita in the EU. Thats not an excuse, things can and should be improved. The synopis of the OECD report here: http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_101348.shtml mentions some very interesting statistics and facts.
From a personal point of view I can see where improvements can be made in the public service in general, as I believe can any right thinking person, however the parocial nature of Irish politics, Unions, and a general lack of leadership and foresight makes any improvements very hard to make.
Your comments in relation to "Creating and generating wealth" are strange to say the least. Do you think that everyone working in the private sector creates and generates wealth in a tangable way? If so who is this wealth for?
You'll see in that OECD report I linked to there are comments in relation to industry in Ireland. A serious amount of money on an anual basis is repatriated to the home countries of the major companies that operate out of Ireland. This is in essence a very very bad thing for the country. Over the years Government and some of the public service (state agencies) have failed to dramaticilly increase the amount of Irish people working for Irish companies, which is essentially something we should be aiming to do more and more.

Back to teachers, your rant is ill advised.....
If you've ever spent any length of time in a classroom with up to 30 kids of any age or any length of time teaching then I think you are qualified to talk about that particuliar profession. I can only assume, based on your lack of understanding of the profession that you haven't. There are a number of people in the profession who so very obviously shouldnt be there, the same as any. Having been around national school teachers for the past 10 years or so, I can tell you that the ones I know are a dedicitated hard working bunch who deserve everything they get. If you believe the job is so good I think you should consider a career in it.


Times are tough, indeed and jobs and wages will decrease across all sectors including the public sector. I fully expect that. We need some foresight and intelligence from those in decision making areas to ensure that our educated population are put to us and that Irish startups with decent business plans and products and services are given every help they can to get going.....

Kippy

Reality is of course relative. In this instance there is the private sector reality and the public sector reality, and in this little country of ours never the twain shall meet. Therein lies our problem. There is no common ground between Public and private sector workers, there is no common language. Our value systems are different, our goals, aspirations and motivation have little commonality.
My “rant” is neither advised nor ill advised it simply is what it is, a very strongly held conviction. To suggest a lack of first hand experience should preclude one from expressing a viewpoint is not a tenable position, one you might like to reconsider. Regrettably your anecdotal support for the “dedicated hard working bunch who deserve everything they get” is simply that, anecdotal. When under the spotlight the reflex action of most Public Servants is to produce or reference reports in support of their cause for even more spending. I would ask where are the reports that measure teachers real contribution, their effectiveness, and their competence? Where are the reports that justify their pay increases over the last 10 years? As ever when it comes to the Public Service and reports they reflect only one reality, their own.
Neither foresight, intelligence or an educated population will deliver us from our current predicament unless it is viewed through the prism of the private sector. The model of consensus and partnership which has practically bankrupted this country must be torn asunder. The reality ( and this is the only reality you need to grasp ) is that our Public Service is bleeding this country dry, it is inefficient, unaccountable, overpaid and under worked. Let the revolution commence.

kippy

Blue-sky wrote: »

kippy wrote: »

Reality is of course relative. In this instance there is the private sector reality and the public sector reality, and in this little country of ours never the twain shall meet. Therein lies our problem. There is no common ground between Public and private sector workers, there is no common language. Our value systems are different, our goals, aspirations and motivation have little commonality.
My “rant” is neither advised nor ill advised it simply is what it is, a very strongly held conviction. To suggest a lack of first hand experience should preclude one from expressing a viewpoint is not a tenable position, one you might like to reconsider. Regrettably your anecdotal support for the “dedicated hard working bunch who deserve everything they get” is simply that, anecdotal. When under the spotlight the reflex action of most Public Servants is to produce or reference reports in support of their cause for even more spending. I would ask where are the reports that measure teachers real contribution, their effectiveness, and their competence? Where are the reports that justify their pay increases over the last 10 years? As ever when it comes to the Public Service and reports they reflect only one reality, their own.
Neither foresight, intelligence or an educated population will deliver us from our current predicament unless it is viewed through the prism of the private sector. The model of consensus and partnership which has practically bankrupted this country must be torn asunder. The reality ( and this is the only reality you need to grasp ) is that our Public Service is bleeding this country dry, it is inefficient, unaccountable, overpaid and under worked. Let the revolution commence.

There are a large number of Public sector functions which are simply NEVER EVER going to be cash or monetary wealth generating. I think this is obvious. From this point of view it is very difficult to assign a specific Private sector outlook on these functions. Its just not possible....Surely you can see that there are areas in the public sector that will never be wealth generating?

There are issues in relation to performance in certain branches of the public sector but many areas have actually brought in Performance reviews which impact pay and promotion prospects. The "Getting promoted because you're there the longest (but haven't a clue) is gone from many areas of the Public service.

Like areas in the Private sector there are inefficiencies and people who just dont want to work and get away with it. That happens in all walks of life whether private or public.

And again, I would questioning why you havent chosen a career in the Public service if you believe it to be such a handy number?

Whatever about the rest of the Public service I will stand up for teachers.
Teachers are an extremely difficult profession to benchmark and review (performance wise) surely you'd agree with this? Can you advise how you would prepare the annual review of a national school teacher teaching 1st class?

What kind of "EVIDENCE" do you want me to produce to prove that they are: "“dedicated hard working bunch who deserve everything they get” "?
What figures do you want to see? Of the ten or so I know well, 3 teach a class less than 5 people. 3 more are Special needs teachers and the remaining four are mainstream teachers. All three who teach a class less than 5 people are teaching in "special schools". The people they are teaching all have severe problems and are highly unlikely to ever improve and major amount. Some of these teachers have gotten hit while at work by their pupils....their pupils will never perform well in any tests and getting them to interact socially is an achievement in itself. The three people who teach them are extremely dedicated and care about what they do. The three special needs teachers teach in mainstream school and spend a massive amount of time outside of school hours preparing material and trying to get further help for the people that they teach, which in the Irish Education system is extremely difficult. They all work hard and care immensely for what they do while at the same time having to deal with some of the most ignornant of parents who seem to forget that they themselves (the parents) need to spend more time with their kids if they are to perform better.

foggy_lad

can anyony tell how many paid sick days a teacher is entitled to take each year? and also how many paid sick days are they allowed before a cert from a doctor is required? i have heard they get far more sick leave than any other sector and that the majority of this is paid leave and does not need to be certified by a doctor.

Rael

Ten civil servants standing in a line,
One of them was downsized - then there were nine.

Nine civil servants who must negotiate,
One joined the union - then there were eight.

Eight civil servants thought they were in heaven,
'Til one of them was redeployed - then there were seven.

Seven civil servants, their jobs as safe as bricks,
But one was reclassified - then there were six.

Six civil servants trying to survive,
One of them was privatised - then there were five.

Five civil servants ready to give more,
But one golden handshake reduced them to four.

Four civil servants full of loyalty,
Their jobs were all advertised - then there were three.

Three civil servants under review,
One left on secondment - then there were two.

Two civil servants coping on the run,
One went on stress leave - then there was one.

The last civil servant agreed to relocate,
Replaced by 10 consultants at twice the hourly rate.

Blue-sky

kippy wrote: »

Blue-sky wrote: »

There are a large number of Public sector functions which are simply NEVER EVER going to be cash or monetary wealth generating. I think this is obvious. From this point of view it is very difficult to assign a specific Private sector outlook on these functions. Its just not possible....Surely you can see that there are areas in the public sector that will never be wealth generating?

There are issues in relation to performance in certain branches of the public sector but many areas have actually brought in Performance reviews which impact pay and promotion prospects. The "Getting promoted because you're there the longest (but haven't a clue) is gone from many areas of the Public service.

Like areas in the Private sector there are inefficiencies and people who just dont want to work and get away with it. That happens in all walks of life whether private or public.

And again, I would questioning why you havent chosen a career in the Public service if you believe it to be such a handy number?

Whatever about the rest of the Public service I will stand up for teachers.
Teachers are an extremely difficult profession to benchmark and review (performance wise) surely you'd agree with this? Can you advise how you would prepare the annual review of a national school teacher teaching 1st class?

What kind of "EVIDENCE" do you want me to produce to prove that they are: "“dedicated hard working bunch who deserve everything they get” "?
What figures do you want to see? Of the ten or so I know well, 3 teach a class less than 5 people. 3 more are Special needs teachers and the remaining four are mainstream teachers. All three who teach a class less than 5 people are teaching in "special schools". The people they are teaching all have severe problems and are highly unlikely to ever improve and major amount. Some of these teachers have gotten hit while at work by their pupils....their pupils will never perform well in any tests and getting them to interact socially is an achievement in itself. The three people who teach them are extremely dedicated and care about what they do. The three special needs teachers teach in mainstream school and spend a massive amount of time outside of school hours preparing material and trying to get further help for the people that they teach, which in the Irish Education system is extremely difficult. They all work hard and care immensely for what they do while at the same time having to deal with some of the most ignornant of parents who seem to forget that they themselves (the parents) need to spend more time with their kids if they are to perform better.

Your point on wealth generation within the public Service is understood, however it is not the issue. There are a myriad of issues pertaining to the Public Service in all its guises. Chronic over-manning is prevalent, under performance is systematic, absence is endemic, accountability is nominal and rarely terminal. It is this sort of environment that engenders the cultural mindset of “Entitlement” which most Public Sector representatives harbour. It is also within this framework that the debate must ultimately evolve.
You write “ but many areas have actually brought in Performance reviews which impact pay and promotion prospects“ . This would be great had you written it in 1979, however writing it in 2009 only illustrates my point about relative values. Mine and theirs, private and public, efficient and inefficient, accountable and unaccountable, earned and entitled.
You enquire further “I would questioning why you haven’t chosen a career in the Public service if you believe it to be such a handy number?” My career choices were for the most part based on interests and aptitude, weren’t yours? You surely are not proposing this as a strategy to the problem of Public Sector waste, if you can‘t beat them join them?
You say further, teachers are an extremely difficult profession to review. I would say most professions are difficult to review, private or public. This task however is achieved routinely in the private sector simply because it has been embraced by all participants. However in the alternate reality that public Servants and in particular teachers inhabit, there is of course only surly recalcitrance.
Your last paragraph is interesting and I commend you for the passion with which you wrote it. Your comments are enlightening and informative, they tell me a good deal about this particular school, the good work it is doing and something of the quality of the teachers. But imagine, without even trying you have reviewed your schools performance and the quality of the teaching.Your review may be subjective but nonetheless it shows all things are possible even in the Public Sector.

rainbowtrout

foggy_lad wrote: »

can anyony tell how many paid sick days a teacher is entitled to take each year? and also how many paid sick days are they allowed before a cert from a doctor is required? i have heard they get far more sick leave than any other sector and that the majority of this is paid leave and does not need to be certified by a doctor.

from the horse's mouth as it were:

http://www.asti.ie/faq/sickleave.htm

http://www.tui.ie/Leave_Provisions/Default.130.html

rainbowtrout

Blue-sky wrote: »

kippy wrote: »

Your point on wealth generation within the public Service is understood, however it is not the issue. There are a myriad of issues pertaining to the Public Service in all its guises. Chronic over-manning is prevalent, under performance is systematic, absence is endemic, accountability is nominal and rarely terminal. It is this sort of environment that engenders the cultural mindset of “Entitlement” which most Public Sector representatives harbour. It is also within this framework that the debate must ultimately evolve.
You write “ but many areas have actually brought in Performance reviews which impact pay and promotion prospects“ . This would be great had you written it in 1979, however writing it in 2009 only illustrates my point about relative values. Mine and theirs, private and public, efficient and inefficient, accountable and unaccountable, earned and entitled.
You enquire further “I would questioning why you haven’t chosen a career in the Public service if you believe it to be such a handy number?” My career choices were for the most part based on interests and aptitude, weren’t yours? You surely are not proposing this as a strategy to the problem of Public Sector waste, if you can‘t beat them join them?
You say further, teachers are an extremely difficult profession to review. I would say most professions are difficult to review, private or public. This task however is achieved routinely in the private sector simply because it has been embraced by all participants. However in the alternate reality that public Servants and in particular teachers inhabit, there is of course only surly recalcitrance.
Your last paragraph is interesting and I commend you for the passion with which you wrote it. Your comments are enlightening and informative, they tell me a good deal about this particular school, the good work it is doing and something of the quality of the teachers. But imagine, without even trying you have reviewed your schools performance and the quality of the teaching.Your review may be subjective but nonetheless it shows all things are possible even in the Public Sector.

Whole school evaluation and subject evaluations take places in school across the country right throughout the school year and have done so for a number of years. These evaluations are available on the department website for all to read. While teachers of specific subjects are not named in the evaluations, anyone who knows a school will know who is being referenced especially if there is only one teacher for a named subject. This information is available for the public to read unlike most other evaluations.


and just on the point on over-manning, do you propose a cut in teaching jobs in this country? There will be cuts as a result of the budget with an increase in class numbers and a cut in funding for programmes, so are bigger class sizes with a possible reduction in subject choices the answer for students just to reduce the numbers employed in this sector?

kippy

My career choices were for the most part based on interests and aptitude, weren’t yours? You surely are not proposing this as a strategy to the problem of Public Sector waste, if you can‘t beat them join them?
You say further, teachers are an extremely difficult profession to review. I would say most professions are difficult to review, private or public. This task however is achieved routinely in the private sector simply because it has been embraced by all participants. However in the alternate reality that public Servants and in particular teachers inhabit, there is of course only surly recalcitrance.
Your last paragraph is interesting and I commend you for the passion with which you wrote it. Your comments are enlightening and informative, they tell me a good deal about this particular school, the good work it is doing and something of the quality of the teachers. But imagine, without even trying you have reviewed your schools performance and the quality of the teaching.Your review may be subjective but nonetheless it shows all things are possible even in the Public Sector.

My career choice was based on interests and aptitude also. Where I chose to work is based on my employment conditions and lifestyle choices. I dont think anyone would chose to work in an one organisation which has a similiar job to another but they dont offer as many holidays, aren't as family friendly and dont have the same job prospects. I aint condoning the "if you cant beat them join them" lark, just outlining the logic in working in the public sector, as you've pointed out, the conditions of employment are better (without possibly the same career prospects or earning potential) of the private sector. You seem to be alluding to the fact that a decision to join the public service is somekind of a selfish decision and a slap in the face to all those that work in the private sector.
Don't get me wrong, there is waste and a history of wastage as you do point out, I have no illusions about that. Things need to change a newer model needs to be implemented with whatever cuts are needed however you still havent really given any viable options (the main basis for the private sector is cash generation-not something, as you've agreed, that can totally be applied to the public sector). If I were you I would suggest a centralised HR function for the whole of the private service with shared IT systems, policies and procedures....with possibly a shared payroll section as well.....These may mean a large staffing in these areas but a cut in the cost of IT systems, bank account usage, bank fees and a serious reduction in replication across the various arms of the public service. One other aspect that could be looked at is the cost of IT and active ways in which this budget could be cut across the PS. A move to open source software for example, cheaper hardware, shared hosting centers.....
While all of this may not apply to the full public service I am sure it could be applied to sections of it. Again, the will needs to be there from the top to the very bottom and time will need to be given to it.
Wages, I believe are not as big a percentage of total spend in the Public service as you may think (I have no figures to back this up) so the key as well as streamlining jobs is to cut costs else where.
In the Private sector, as an employee, if you come up with serious cost savings that save the company money, you use this as an example in your next pay talks to try get a bigger wage, not plausable in the Public sector in general (although unless you perform very very poorly you will get a standard increment but nothing outside of this)
As I have said on another post somewhere, were all of these cost savings to be made and implemented, there would be a direct knock on effect of more job losses in the private sector....but that seems to be accepted anyway.
Obviously all of my rambling is very general and will probably never actually happen.

In relation to teachers again.....that is not a performance review in anyway shape or form. nothing has been measured and boils down to "anecdotal support" of them. Theres no tangible measurement of their performance, just an essay in support of the particular ones I know. I realise there are "Performace" appraisals of schools online but would question whether they could actually be used to have a person removed from their position.


Kippy

ABEasy

Blue-sky wrote: »

Teachers... Who needs them

What more can you say about our wonderful teachers. Where would Ireland be without these icons of humble modesty. Hmmmmm let me think. How about this..Teachers are the most under worked overpaid parasitic whingers in the Irish state. Yep that sounds about right. Consider the long long days these poor dears have to work, 9am to 3pm or even 4pm ( gasps of incredulity). How do they do it, how can they sustain such selfless commitment day in day out. But wait there's worse, teachers are actually expected to work almost 26 weeks a year. I kid you not, the inhumanity of it is mind boggling. If we were talking about animals there would no doubt be a national outcry. Joe Duffy would be inundated with calls from "very concerned citizens" about the plight of these poor creatures.

Is it not repugnant to hear these self regarding, pompous whingers crying about the poor children in relation to the latest round of education cut backs. But "The Children The Children, what about the poor children" is the hypocritical cry from teachers union reptiles. However try make one suggestion, however minor, that may improve the lot of children but crucially would involve these paragons of hypocrisy having to cede a single millimetre of their God given rights. Make that suggestion and remember to duck as the airwaves are engulfed with a tsunami of indignant bile from these wasters.

Pay them for the hours they work, not a cent more. Review their performance and crucially their pupils development. If its found wanting, retrain them, if performance continues to be sub par ( or as we say in the real world -they are incompetent ) then simply sack them.

Like all Public Servants in this Kip of a country, teachers have been riding 'real' nett tax payers for far too long. Its time to put these particular parasites back in their box.

You are spot on with this. Compare the pay per hour to the pay per hour of private schools who have much better classroom results....

Also if they were really interested in students interests why were they threatening to strike during the leaving/junior cert exams a few years ago?? The same can be said for must civil servants, they seem to think they are missing huge share schemes or things like that in the private sector when nothing could be further from the truth. Most small and medium business owners work 60-70 hour weeks and will be lucky to survive 2009. It's these business owners who have been driving this country for the past 20 years and all they get now is the unions calling them fat cats while their business's go down the tubes.

irishshogun

Holy crap! There is some major hate going on here! Lets pick on those that actually help society and the community, who try to impart knowledge and understanding, that hopefully create a sense of worth in children.
Are nurses next for you? Let’s pay them by the amount of puke they clean up or stitches they sew. That'll teach them to have decent pay and conditions. Lets all run to the bottom shall we.

Couple of points, teachers get an hourly wage. They do NOT get free holidays; their annual wage is divided over 52 weeks. Work starts before the students arrive and finishes well after. Lessons don’t write themselves, exams have to be created, set and corrected, there is no time allowed during school to do this, that’s homework,do you bring home work every night?

As one of those "greedy" teachers, who went to college for 6 years, MA, H.Dip and BA (a requirement for work now) who worked ****ty hours in 4 or 5 schools while trying to build a CV. working 6 hours in a school where I covered 3 classes and got paid for 2 hrs because I only get paid for teaching. This is common starting out, no holiday pay or benifits untill you get a contract, Factory work during so called holiday periods and mid-terms. Finally got regular hours 3.5 years ago (been teaching 9 years) and have now had my contract cancelled 6 months before I'd have gotten a permanent position due to education cutbacks. My students who are sitting exams will have to be split up and placed in other classes with teachers who neither knows them or their abilities other that what I can tell them before I go. Not fair on either of them.

As a husband, father to be and what I consider to be a caring, hard working teacher I find your rant disgraceful and believe that your issues with teachers goes deeper than just wage and conditions.

As a future member of the dole queue who will have to find a job and work in it continuously for 4 years before I'm contacted again. I hope you get over whatever the hell is giving you grief. This current climate hurts everyone; teachers aren’t all in secure jobs, nor do they have lives of leisure.

We know who's to blame and it isnt teachers.

rainbowtrout

ABEasy wrote: »

You are spot on with this. Compare the pay per hour to the pay per hour of private schools who have much better classroom results....

Private schools who hand pick their students and don't want to take in any students who are academically weak or have any form of behavioural problem, learning disability or special needs... how could you justify that a private school who will not cater for the needs of all types of students be government funded and therefore be able to provide higher wages?

kingshankly

Blue-sky wrote: »

Teachers... Who needs them

What more can you say about our wonderful teachers. Where would Ireland be without these icons of humble modesty. Hmmmmm let me think. How about this..Teachers are the most under worked overpaid parasitic whingers in the Irish state. Yep that sounds about right. Consider the long long days these poor dears have to work, 9am to 3pm or even 4pm ( gasps of incredulity). How do they do it, how can they sustain such selfless commitment day in day out. But wait there's worse, teachers are actually expected to work almost 26 weeks a year. I kid you not, the inhumanity of it is mind boggling. If we were talking about animals there would no doubt be a national outcry. Joe Duffy would be inundated with calls from "very concerned citizens" about the plight of these poor creatures.

Is it not repugnant to hear these self regarding, pompous whingers crying about the poor children in relation to the latest round of education cut backs. But "The Children The Children, what about the poor children" is the hypocritical cry from teachers union reptiles. However try make one suggestion, however minor, that may improve the lot of children but crucially would involve these paragons of hypocrisy having to cede a single millimetre of their God given rights. Make that suggestion and remember to duck as the airwaves are engulfed with a tsunami of indignant bile from these wasters.

Pay them for the hours they work, not a cent more. Review their performance and crucially their pupils development. If its found wanting, retrain them, if performance continues to be sub par ( or as we say in the real world -they are incompetent ) then simply sack them.

Like all Public Servants in this Kip of a country, teachers have been riding 'real' nett tax payers for far too long. Its time to put these particular parasites back in their box.

probably the worst post i have ever read:eek:

jester77

My sis is a teacher out in Tallaght. The stuff she has to put up with and the stories are unreal. And the sad part is most of her students parents don't give a crap about their kids. She is basically trying to raise these kids and give them an education as well. And she is not finished at 3 or 4, she has to put in a lot of hours after school and on weekends to prepare things for them. If you gave me 10 times what she was earning I would turn it down, no way I could up with 30 kids every day.

Blue-sky

irishshogun wrote: »

Holy crap! There is some major hate going on here! Lets pick on those that actually help society and the community, who try to impart knowledge and understanding, that hopefully create a sense of worth in children.
Are nurses next for you? Let’s pay them by the amount of puke they clean up or stitches they sew. That'll teach them to have decent pay and conditions. Lets all run to the bottom shall we.

Couple of points, teachers get an hourly wage. They do NOT get free holidays; their annual wage is divided over 52 weeks. Work starts before the students arrive and finishes well after. Lessons don’t write themselves, exams have to be created, set and corrected, there is no time allowed during school to do this, that’s homework,do you bring home work every night?

As one of those "greedy" teachers, who went to college for 6 years, MA, H.Dip and BA (a requirement for work now) who worked ****ty hours in 4 or 5 schools while trying to build a CV. working 6 hours in a school where I covered 3 classes and got paid for 2 hrs because I only get paid for teaching. This is common starting out, no holiday pay or benifits untill you get a contract, Factory work during so called holiday periods and mid-terms. Finally got regular hours 3.5 years ago (been teaching 9 years) and have now had my contract cancelled 6 months before I'd have gotten a permanent position due to education cutbacks. My students who are sitting exams will have to be split up and placed in other classes with teachers who neither knows them or their abilities other that what I can tell them before I go. Not fair on either of them.

As a husband, father to be and what I consider to be a caring, hard working teacher I find your rant disgraceful and believe that your issues with teachers goes deeper than just wage and conditions.

As a future member of the dole queue who will have to find a job and work in it continuously for 4 years before I'm contacted again. I hope you get over whatever the hell is giving you grief. This current climate hurts everyone; teachers aren’t all in secure jobs, nor do they have lives of leisure.

We know who's to blame and it isnt teachers.

Hark, I hear the whine of the Public Service “ Entitlement Engine” starting to rev up again

Blue-sky

kingshankly wrote: »

probably the worst post i have ever read:eek:

Definetely the worst post I have ever read.

xxmarymoxx

teachers in this country deserve a pay rise not some eejit posting a stupid rant cos he or she is jealous of what they get paid

spurious

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

teachers in this country deserve a pay rise not some eejit posting a stupid rant cos he or she is jealous of what they get paid

Some people are funny where teachers are concerned. Quite a number of people seem stuck at the emotional level of a bold 14 year old and incapable of seeing anything other than what they want to.

As I've said before, anyone who thinks it's an easy job is absolutely welcome (following Garda clearance) to come do it in our place for a day.

I wouldn't class all of the public service as a rip-off, although there seem to be many examples of poor management of resources. I can only really speak for my workplace, where we had nothing but cutback after cutback during the 'boom' years. I would genuinely like to know where all the money went - was it to build roads and unwanted houses?

Blue-sky

jester77 wrote: »

My sis is a teacher out in Tallaght. The stuff she has to put up with and the stories are unreal. And the sad part is most of her students parents don't give a crap about their kids. She is basically trying to raise these kids and give them an education as well. And she is not finished at 3 or 4, she has to put in a lot of hours after school and on weekends to prepare things for them. If you gave me 10 times what she was earning I would turn it down, no way I could up with 30 kids every day.

Pardon me for one moment while I put some more foam padding on my forehead...................................................................................
Teaching is no more stressful than any other part time job.
No doubt there are worthy individuals within the teaching profession.I have no quarrel with individuals good bad or indifferent. My quarrel is with the consensus. the received wisdom that public Servants and in particular teachers are de facto untouchable and ‘Entitled‘.

Untouchable in every regard, be it salary, conditions, entitlements, performance, accountability, pensions, absence ad naseum. By every recognised performance metric these ‘groups’ live in a parallel world to the rest of us where normal laws of common sense and realistic dialogue do not exist. They do not create or generate wealth, they simply consume disproportionate quantity’s of resources.

Realistic solutions are appropriate in realistic situations, unfortunately there is nothing realistic about the Irish Public Service, it is positively surreal in its excess. I have always suspected that it would take an implosion of the irish economy before any of our lickspittle politicians would dare to face down the Public Sector Unions. That day may at last be approaching.

dolliemix

Irishshogun I'm sorry to hear about your situation, for you, your family and your students.

Bluesky...I,ve just finished reading this thread. You started a thread, which made uninformed sarcastic generalisations. Kippy, Rainbow Trout etc responded. You backtracked, but still continued to insult and demean a whole group of honest professionals with statements based on urban myths. I think you should read over IrishShoguns post again. He does not claim anywhere, as far as I can see, to 'entitlement'. But as with all your other posts you wont regress. when you're wrong nor will you sympathise with a fellow human being who is as scared as everyone else is about the future in this time of recession - just bacause he is a teacher.

I agree with Irishshogun that there is something deeper than a public servant rant here. All you have succeeded doing with this thread is personally insult individual hard-working honest people and highlight your own bitterness and lack of empathy towards other human beings.:(

Danno

Will the OP have his/her kids well mannered going to school? The majority of parents are to balme for the scumbag kids they allow to grow up beneath them. These untouchable scumbags demoralise the profession and other fellow students. Bring back whacking kids in the class rooms I say, and nope, I'm not a teacher or have any VI in teaching.

Celticfire

Blue-sky , I was just wondering what you do for a living and if you have kids?

irishshogun

dolliemix wrote: »

Irishshogun I'm sorry to hear about your situation, for you, your family and your students.

I agree with Irishshogun that there is something deeper than a public servant rant here. All you have succeeded doing with this thread is personally insult individual hard-working honest people and highlight your own bitterness and lack of empathy towards other human beings.:(

Dolliemix, thanks for your kind words, like a lot of people the future is uncertain but we'll get on with it.
This Blue_sky seems to lack all moral and social fibre, he/she defines people by thier product [/QUOTE] They do not create or generate wealth [/QUOTE]a sad basis for defining worth and an obvious sign of thier shallowness. I define wealth differently than you, thankfully, a well balanced, educated, happy, literate and numerate child, a good member of society with hopes and aspirations, whose aim is not solely the acquisition of wealth. I believe it best now not to fed this troll any more and to end this thread.

kippy

Time to close this post me thinks.....

Blue-sky

dolliemix wrote: »

Irishshogun I'm sorry to hear about your situation, for you, your family and your students.

Bluesky...I,ve just finished reading this thread. You started a thread, which made uninformed sarcastic generalisations. Kippy, Rainbow Trout etc responded. You backtracked, but still continued to insult and demean a whole group of honest professionals with statements based on urban myths. I think you should read over IrishShoguns post again. He does not claim anywhere, as far as I can see, to 'entitlement'. But as with all your other posts you wont regress. when you're wrong nor will you sympathise with a fellow human being who is as scared as everyone else is about the future in this time of recession - just bacause he is a teacher.

I agree with Irishshogun that there is something deeper than a public servant rant here. All you have succeeded doing with this thread is personally insult individual hard-working honest people and highlight your own bitterness and lack of empathy towards other human beings.:(

To begin, my comments are not uninformed, viewed subjectively they may be sarcastic, they may well contain generalisations, rest assured they are not uninformed. How about yours?
In my view teachers performance both in their professional capacity as conduits of learning, and in their public profile as represented by teachers unions, has to say the least, been dismal.
Let me explain something about “Entitlement“, it is not a word or a sentence, it is a state of mind. It pervades the mindset of our Public Service, it informs and frames their thinking. It feeds on notions of overblown self importance and arrogance . Entitlement is a disease and it has infected the Public Service in this country to such an extent, that nothing short of radical surgery will cure it.
This country is in very serious trouble. Nett tax payers are loosing their jobs at an unprecedented rate. In addition as if things were not bad enough, the country’s major organ, the public Service, is riddled with a cancer called “Entitlement”, which if left unchallenged will sink this country. So when you suggest there may be something deeper than a “ Public Service rant” here? I think its safe to say yes, ‘it’s the economy stupid’.

kippy

Blue-sky wrote: »

To begin, my comments are not uninformed, viewed subjectively they may be sarcastic, they may well contain generalisations, rest assured they are not uninformed. How about yours?
In my view teachers performance both in their professional capacity as conduits of learning, and in their public profile as represented by teachers unions, has to say the least, been dismal.
Let me explain something about “Entitlement“, it is not a word or a sentence, it is a state of mind. It pervades the mindset of our Public Service, it informs and frames their thinking. It feeds on notions of overblown self importance and arrogance . Entitlement is a disease and it has infected the Public Service in this country to such an extent, that nothing short of radical surgery will cure it.
This country is in very serious trouble. Nett tax payers are loosing their jobs at an unprecedented rate. In addition as if things were not bad enough, the country’s major organ, the public Service, is riddled with a cancer called “Entitlement”, which if left unchallenged will sink this country. So when you suggest there may be something deeper than a “ Public Service rant” here? I think its safe to say yes, ‘it’s the economy stupid’.

I dont think theres anyone trying to say that the economy is not in trouble. Its been in trouble for a long time and we'll all have to make sacrifices. However you've still not come up with any plausable solutions (I've at least tried myself to give some ideas to you), especially to this endemic "entitlement" you speak so much about.
You've also given away very little about your own situation which in itself is a bit strange.....
I am reporting you for trolling, as I think your lack of actually moving forward with this topic highlights you actual total disregard for trying to do anything constructive to solve the issues you speak of, apart from firing everyone....

irishshogun

Dont feed into it, thanks to those with constructive responses but its best to end this, he has no intention but to insult and troll.

xxmarymoxx

if parents are not going to bother about raising there kids why shuould an underpaid overworked teacher have the stress of a couple of brats in their class

akaredtop

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

if parents are not going to bother about raising there kids why shuould an underpaid overworked teacher have the stress of a couple of brats in their class

I sympathise about the brats in your class. But please don't give us this garbage about being underpaid.You are getting paid 30% more than the teachers in the UK who have shorter holidays than you.

rainbowtrout

akaredtop wrote: »

I sympathise about the brats in your class. But please don't give us this garbage about being underpaid.You are getting paid 30% more than the teachers in the UK who have shorter holidays than you.

I'm not referring to your underpaid comment, but people in the UK also have a lower cost of living, which is reflected in their minimum wage. I'm sure if the cost of living was higher there they would have higher teaching wages.

amos13

kippy wrote: »

I dont think theres anyone trying to say that the economy is not in trouble. Its been in trouble for a long time and we'll all have to make sacrifices. However you've still not come up with any plausable solutions (I've at least tried myself to give some ideas to you), especially to this endemic "entitlement" you speak so much about.
You've also given away very little about your own situation which in itself is a bit strange.....
I am reporting you for trolling, as I think your lack of actually moving forward with this topic highlights you actual total disregard for trying to do anything constructive to solve the issues you speak of, apart from firing everyone....

Kippy, may I just say, that this is a free speach forum, not a censored forum, and the fact that you have "reported" this person for anything for expression of their opinion is a disgrace, given the fact that you have only reported them for their refusal to fall in line with your way of thinking. There is plenty of people in this country who think that the public service is basically a free-for-all, (backed up by various polls such as those by the irish times) and the teaching profession forms in no way a small part of that. first of all, I find it hard to believe you have ten friends who are teachers, are you hanging around in school canteens or something? or are you an actual teacher yourself, which is the only plausible way you would have so many teacher friends? secondly, Bluesky has very VERY valid points regarding the "entitlement" mentality. Let me elaborate.

My partner previously worked in the public service. His father worked in it until he retired and his sister still does. My friend is a teacher and my best friends boyfriend is a teacher. I myself am 25 and work in the private sector. Do not doubt me when I say, they consistently rib me about the perks that they have and their holiday entitlements, which I do not have. I have no job security in the looming recession, however, they have a "job for life", and receive standard bonuses and raises each year regardless of their performance. My friends who are teachers never, I repeat, NEVER, get home any later than 4 o'clock (the drivel that was being posted earlier about correcting homework etc, that is corrected while the students are doing actual questions, tests etc in school, it is not brought home by the teachers, and I have this information under good authority), whereas I regularly have to work to 7,8, even 9 o'clock to prove my worth to my company. My own teachers striked during my leaving cert, causing so much aggravation among us students, we eventually went on strike ourselves to get the teachers BACK in school, this is vertually unheard of by students! And they were striking because, as my business teacher put it " our union thinks we are entitled to more". Absolutely no consideration of the future of thousands of students about to sit their most important exams so. I did well in my exams, no thanks to the teachers, I taught myself from home. Had to. They weren't around. Oh yes, that brings me to another point. their "entitlement" to 91 sick days a year. bear in mind, they only work 7 months a year, and 91 working days equates into over 4 calender months, which they are "entitled" to take off, leaving 3 months a year in which they can legitimately work and still receive a full years salary which the taxpayer (like myself) foots the bill for. And benchmarking. Don't get me started on benchmarking. can someone tell me first why teachers should be benchmarked and I will give them my honest opinion on their response? I'd love to hear the arguments for this.

amos13

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

if parents are not going to bother about raising there kids why shuould an underpaid overworked teacher have the stress of a couple of brats in their class

Oh please, like the rest of us don't have stress in our jobs. get real. and underpaid and overworked? get a real job and see what underpaid and overworked really is.

amos13

Danno wrote: »

Will the OP have his/her kids well mannered going to school? The majority of parents are to balme for the scumbag kids they allow to grow up beneath them. These untouchable scumbags demoralise the profession and other fellow students. Bring back whacking kids in the class rooms I say, and nope, I'm not a teacher or have any VI in teaching.

What a disgrace, you attack this persons kids because of their parents beliefs? and calling children scumbags that should be whacked? You have a bit of a warped mind. this forum is focussing on overpaid teachers in the public service, not bringing back violence against children by those who by rights have no authority to decide whether they should be smacked or not. Its YOUR children I would feel sorry for.

kippy

amos13 wrote: »

Kippy, may I just say, that this is a free speach forum, not a censored forum, and the fact that you have "reported" this person for anything for expression of their opinion is a disgrace, given the fact that you have only reported them for their refusal to fall in line with your way of thinking. There is plenty of people in this country who think that the public service is basically a free-for-all, (backed up by various polls such as those by the irish times) and the teaching profession forms in no way a small part of that. first of all, I find it hard to believe you have ten friends who are teachers, are you hanging around in school canteens or something? or are you an actual teacher yourself, which is the only plausible way you would have so many teacher friends? secondly, Bluesky has very VERY valid points regarding the "entitlement" mentality. Let me elaborate.

My partner previously worked in the public service. His father worked in it until he retired and his sister still does. My friend is a teacher and my best friends boyfriend is a teacher. I myself am 25 and work in the private sector. Do not doubt me when I say, they consistently rib me about the perks that they have and their holiday entitlements, which I do not have. I have no job security in the looming recession, however, they have a "job for life", and receive standard bonuses and raises each year regardless of their performance. My friends who are teachers never, I repeat, NEVER, get home any later than 4 o'clock (the drivel that was being posted earlier about correcting homework etc, that is corrected while the students are doing actual questions, tests etc in school, it is not brought home by the teachers, and I have this information under good authority), whereas I regularly have to work to 7,8, even 9 o'clock to prove my worth to my company. My own teachers striked during my leaving cert, causing so much aggravation among us students, we eventually went on strike ourselves to get the teachers BACK in school, this is vertually unheard of by students! And they were striking because, as my business teacher put it " our union thinks we are entitled to more". Absolutely no consideration of the future of thousands of students about to sit their most important exams so. I did well in my exams, no thanks to the teachers, I taught myself from home. Had to. They weren't around. Oh yes, that brings me to another point. their "entitlement" to 91 sick days a year. bear in mind, they only work 7 months a year, and 91 working days equates into over 4 calender months, which they are "entitled" to take off, leaving 3 months a year in which they can legitimately work and still receive a full years salary which the taxpayer (like myself) foots the bill for. And benchmarking. Don't get me started on benchmarking. can someone tell me first why teachers should be benchmarked and I will give them my honest opinion on their response? I'd love to hear the arguments for this.

Hi,
And thanks for your well thought out reply.
I have no problems with people expressing opinions that differ from that of my own. But I just want to point out a few things before I get to the jist of what you are saying.

1. Boards.ie is not a "Free Speech" forum. If it were there would be no need for moderators and the general rules that are in force on the site. The place would also probably be a mess. Boards.ie is also responsible for what is posted here. See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055345592&highlight=free+speech and here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055198036&highlight=free+speech (Theres plenty more example but you get the idea)

2. Have a read of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll . That's why I reported the original poster (not after his original or indeed his first few posts but after a while it became apparent the only thing the person had to offer was to fire all the teachers without actually putting a realistic solution in place to the problem. I myself gave some (what I think are good) solutions to the problems of overspending in the public sector.

3. In hindsight, the OP uses a large number of derogatory terms in his original post which generalise in a big way, teachers and their unions. He called teachers (yes everyone of them) "parasitic whingers", "self regarding, pompous whingers", "paragons of hypocrisy", and "wasters." He called Union representatives "reptiles". That was in the first post. He then goes on to say: "They do not create or generate wealth, they simply consume disproportionate quantity’s of resources. Realistic solutions are appropriate in realistic situations" This is a complete piece of nonsense. Teachers probably generate more indirect wealth than any other profession but its not exactly easy to measure now is it? He also fails to come up with any realistic solutions for the remainder of this posts. I can only assume this is troll like behaviour.

Anyway, the post wasnt close and the user didnt get a warning so I can only assume its not been classed as trolling.

I have ten friends who are teachers because my Fiancee is a teacher, When I started going out with her she was in college with a lot of other primary school teachers to be, I've known them all almost ten years now, from college through a number of varying jobs. I would also know about 4 secondary school teachers so I am aware of the profession and the ups and downs of it.

Bonus' are not rife in the Public service. Increments are. And I do have a problem with this as I've noted in an earlier post.
Have a read of this in relation to sick days for teachers. www.into.ie/descirculars/DESCirculars2005/filedownload,197,en.doc As I think you need to look at the reality of sick leave. In fairness, working with kids of any age would surely increase your chances of getting sick anyway as well as catching the various infestations that a large number of kids suffer from, scabies, nits etc yet despite this the people I know do NOT abuse the sick leave that they are entitled to (I use the word entitled there, as private and public sector workers have entitlements)


And again, as I've stated, the Public sector is not immune from cuts (Job or Salary), I've given examples of where they can be made, but suggesting to fire every teacher is absolutely ludicrous. Suggesting to fire the whole public sector is worse and no one has come on here and given any real solutions to the problem except spout rhetoric and make sweeping generalisations against the Public sector.

There is talk of a 10% pay cut but that in itself has been show to only save the country a very small part of what we actually need to save, it needs to be combined with cost saving across all other areas and not just wages......

And again, if the public service appears to be that good a deal, it would be worth considering a career in it.

Kippy