Eze on Arsene Wenger-Is this the end?

Mr Alan

eZe^ wrote: »

Well, it may be controversial, but imo, Wenger's decisions are slowly ruining Arsenal's reputation as a team that can and wants to win titles every season. Sure, they TRY to win, no doubt, but you have to HOLD onto current established and experienced players, but they are leaving, and now when big players look at Arsenal's current squad they see a team that has no chance to compete with Manchester, Chelsea, and Liverpool right now and today. That turns good players like Flamini away from the team.

The future is important. But the most important thing in football is reputation. If Arsenal loses the reputation of an organization that can retain top players and challenge for honors every year, it will become impossible to attract big names and thats obviously very dangerous.

Wenger seems to think he is justified in neglecting immediate success in favour of long term potential. And how long do Arsenal fans have to wait to see this success. The best managers know how to combine the two.

It's been 3 seasons since we saw that dream team of Arsenal youths make the Carling Cup final, and it's precisely these players in the 1st team that are the main contributors to dropped points, you need established international 27+ year olds in your team.

People also have been raving about Arsenal and their beautiful game, but the fact is, Arsenal were last at their most effective and ruthless when they got to the CL final, they got their by playing solid and rapid counter-attacking football. Now I'm not saying you can't mix attractive football and a winning mentality, far from it, but it just kind of annoys me when people use Arsenal as the example of a team that wins trophies while playing breath-taking football, it's not true. This is more down to the stupidity of Andy Gray and his group of idiotic minstrels who promote the EPL as NFL Europa: Soccer Edition.

Perhaps it is a time when you Arsenal fans really have to consider whether Wenger is the only man for the job at the Emirates, because as good as he was 5 years ago, I'm really starting to have my doubts of the direction he is taking the team.

This is an outstanding post made in the Jan transfer window thread about Arsenal and the direction of the club. Thought it might get lost in that thread as a lot of people arent interested in silly transfer stories.

Also figured it merited discussion in its own thread.

Basically i agree with everything Eze says above, although, i may have my mind made up more, I think its over for Arsene Wenger at Arsenal.

gimmick

I said to an Arsenal supporting friend of mine that unless Arsenal win something this season, Arsenes cards should be marked. Sure they are still in the Champions League, but there are at least 4 better teams still in the tournament than them.

They are in the FA cup, but if they come up against any of the teams above them, they will almost certainly lose by cracking under the pressure imo.

They are not even close to being in the title race. For a club like Arsenal, and for a manager of Wengers reputation, it is not acceptable to be out of the title race at the halfway stage.

Is it really Wengers fault though? Is he being given the necessary money to compete with the likes of Man U, Chelsea and Liverpool, or is it that he just cannot identify a good established player that will fit into his plans to improve the team?

Mr Alan

see, thats the crux of it imo, by all accounts incl the board at Arsenal & Arsenes himself, there has been money to spend the last number of years, which he has chosen not to do.

that money may now be scarce (in the current economic climate, hardly surprising), but surely the blame lies with Arsene for not spending before now.

Boggles

Wenger is a remarkable manager, not many out there could have kept Arsenal in the top 4 through the transition to the new stadium with very limited resources.

Wage structure is what is stopping them from hanging onto the top players. I listen to people everyday shouting that wages should be capped, over payed nancy boys, etc. Should Arsenal not be commended for that?

The Arse are still the most watched team in the prem league, arsé to seats ratio.

Instead of stating the Wenger is dragging Arsenal down, can you imagine the current situation with someone else at the helm, 10 times worse IMO.

Mr Alan wrote: »

by all accounts incl the board at Arsenal & Arsenes himself, there has been money to spend the last number of years, which he has chosen not to do.

There is money and then there is United and Chelsea money, no way they could have competed in the inflated market the past few years whatever the word is coming from the board, etc.

DenMan

In order for the club to move forward it's policies have to change. Arsenal have been in the Champions League now for 10 straight years (a record in itself). It is clear that clubs like Aston Villa, Tottenham, Portsmouth have in the last few years really pushed on and are emerging themselves as ambitious clubs who want to be among Europe's elite on a consistant basis.

In order to remain competitive then Arsenal have to change. If the club was to earn points simply for playing their style (which imo is the envy of the world as they play football the way it is supposed to be), ie attractive, open and pleasing on the eye, then they would run away with the league because they are a pure footballing side. However when it fails and teams close them down (being honest hack them down illegally) they do not have a plan B. They continue to pass the ball around and probe.

Wenger has taken the club to enormous heights. As a teenager I remember my Dad telling me about the clubs bar and how it was the envy of other clubs....wtf. Arsene should move upstairs and allow someone else (whom he will recommend) to come in and work with the players. Also they need to invest heavily in the squad (as so many other clubs have done) and realise that the kids alone will never be able to do it on their own....they need to be in the mix with more senior and experienced players. Wenger will go upstairs, it is a question of when. Financially the Champions League is where everybody needs to be and if the Gunners don't get their act together soon, they will miss out. In fact maybe missing out on it next season is probably what they need....a good kick up the backside and a reality check.

Of course FIFA and UEFA are always trying to get that European super league going and when that happens there will definitely be a divide between domestic and European leagues. I hate to say it as an Arsenal fan but in a very competitive industry if you are not competing for the prizes and are being out-bidded by other clubs for players then there really is a problem, and one that needs to be addressed. Wenger would never have been alowed to rely on youth if he was at another club (Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Inter/Milan etc), he would have been out the door a long time ago. He has been given the time to nurture and develop young players while he has seen so many managers come and go and leave other clubs who were never given the time by their clubs board.

That being said I still think he will pick up a few gems in January, lead the club to fourth and possibly make the semi of this years Champions League. Then over the summer see all the other clubs around invest heavily in new players and realise himself and also spend big. Also the club may have been taken over when that happens (Arab group, Kroenke, Ushmanov etc), personally I think it will be an Arab based consortium or a lone invester from the Emirates. Next season Arsenal will be competing for the league and all the doom and gloom will be gone and Wenger will still be at the helm for a good while yet.......hopefully.

jesus_thats_gre

I posted this just over two months ago on the Arsenal thread:

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Arsenal getting rid of Wenger would be one of the most retarded things they could do as a club. While Wenger isn't the only person who could do as well with a similar level of expenditure, it would take extremely long for the person who comes in to get their own players and personnel in. The players there at the moment would also seem to have a major affiliation with Wenger and would possibly jump ship if he was to leave.

What Wenger has done with so little money is amazing. I think that is actually starting to work against him now however. In recent seasons, Wenger and Arsenal have come very close to winning quite a bit but have ultimately failed at the final hurdle. In alot of cases, the shortcomings in the squad has been obvious. At the beginning of the year, it was suspected that lacking a quality experienced defensive midfielder may cost them.

I think that the players are aware of the shortcomings and the longer they are there, grow frustrated with the club's or Wenger's unwillingness to shell out for an immediate solution. I am nearly convinced that while the players obviously respect Wenger, they possibly see the lack of money being spent as a lack of ambition. I think that this is what allows your best players heads to be turned by "bigger" clubs.

History/heritage and money being spent on ambition are two things that attract top players to clubs. Arsenal are obviously a big club but they are not anywhere near as highly regarded internationally as United, Liverpool, Milan, Madrid and so on. Chelsea made up for this by splashing the cash. Arsenal are sort of on the second tier of clubs on a worldwide scale while also being on the second or third tier in terms of spending.

I genuinely believe that is Wenger spent 20 or million every year or two on a world class player to fill obvious holes, that it would complement the youth policy and make a clear statement as to their intent or ambitions. This would end the situation of your top players being courted like occurred during the summer and would undoubtedly lead to success on the pitch.

I think that Liverpool, while having overspent for years, have nearly achieved the perfect balance in the the past year. That is reflected in there no longer being rumblings of Gerard leaving or there never being any talk of Torres or other top players being tapped up. Agger is the only one in recent years and that was Milan trying to take advantage of him being dissatisfied at the lack of first team games.

Hope i have made my point clearly. Posted on my phone so hard to read over the post.

Frisbee

I know how things are currently going.
But Arsene Wenger has done a remarkable job at the club and I do not want to see him leave.
I'm even worried that he won't sign a new contract when his current one runs out.

We are one player away from guaranteeing fourth this year, and that's a tough, proven Defensive Midfielder.

Look at Arsenal teams of the past, they were always built on a solid core CM partnership Vieira, Petit, Parlour, Edu, Gilberto etc.

When Cesc came along Wenger changed his style to accommodate him (as is only right considering how good he is) however I think we need to have a strong player in there that will give Cesc more room to manouvere.

If we had have kept Flamini we would certainly not be in the trouble we are in now, it's because we are relying on Song and Denilson, two youngsters with potential but not good enough atm imo, for mettle that we are being so let down.

Xavi6

It was over when Vieira left.

It was over when Henry left.

It's over now that Flamini has left (lol) and Cesc is injured.

I'm not buying it.

Royale with Cheese

Mr Alan wrote: »

see, thats the crux of it imo, by all accounts incl the board at Arsenal & Arsenes himself, there has been money to spend the last number of years, which he has chosen not to do.

that money may now be scarce (in the current economic climate, hardly surprising), but surely the blame lies with Arsene for not spending before now.

Do you know how economics works? If he'd spent money before, that was now desperately needed to keep the club running smoothly in tough economic times, Arsenal would truly be up **** creek.

Arsenal live within their means. It's frustrating for fans, but that's the way it is. I don't think they've absolutely no money, but not much, and I wouldn't believe any of the stories the chairman puts out about £30m transfer budgets.

eZe^

I had a massive post that didn't go through and I can't be bothered to post it again. Basically, when do we admit that Wenger's fate in youngsters over established players has failed w.r.t silverware? We are already slowly seeing his next youth team with the likes of Willshire and Vela.

If Arsene truly believes the squad he has atm is good enough to win titles then I think he needs to be replaced, perhaps by the a young charismatic intelligent manager (which seems to be the mould for new managers these days) like Unai Emery.

However fair enough if he has had no money to work with, but if that's the case then I think Arsenal supporters need to realise that it is unlikely they'll win much silverware with this mentality and regime, let Arsene do what he's been doing and accept their current fate and predicament.

redout

Have Arsenal not beaten Man Utd, Chelsea and drew with Liverpool this season ? They beat AC Milan last season in Milan which btw is not an easy thing to do. Ask Man Utd. Not bad for a team in transition. I think Wenger after Fergie is the next best in the Premiership by a margin. His problem is that he has that ph.D in Economics which just does not let him do imprudent things with money. Some would regard that as a virtue.

He only buys what he think he gets real value for even if that means having to wait a season or two for the player to come through. But when they do jesus they are worth it. Nobody does it better. He is one of the top in his profession. Arsenal's real problems started when Viera left in my opinion. Ever since then they have been in a gradual decline. Henry was not a proper replacement for Viera as captain. No trophies since 2005is a problem for a club like Arsenal but sure look at Liverpool. They had a barren run of six years from 95 - 01 without a single trophy but have come on leaps and bounds since. Man Utd went three seasons without a league title and many were writing them off saying Chelsea were going to go on and dominate and how wrong they were. I think Wenger is safe in his job tbh as I dont think the board have the audacity to hand him his p45. I reckon Arsenal will bounce back sooner rather than later.

cournioni

redout wrote: »

Have Arsenal not beaten Man Utd, Chelsea and drew with Liverpool this season ? They beat AC Milan last season in Milan which btw is not an easy thing to do. Ask Man Utd. Not bad for a team in transition. I think Wenger after Fergie is the next best in the Premiership by a margin. His problem is that he has that ph.D in Economics which just does not let him do imprudent things with money. Some would regard that as a virtue.

That is Arsenal's problem right there. They are constantly a team in transition.

jank

History/heritage and money being spent on ambition are two things that attract top players to clubs. Arsenal are obviously a big club but they are not anywhere near as highly regarded internationally as United, Liverpool, Milan, Madrid and so on. Chelsea made up for this by splashing the cash. Arsenal are sort of on the second tier of clubs on a worldwide scale while also being on the second or third tier in terms of spending.

You serious? Chelsea in the top tier of world clubs. You know there are only a very very small handful of clubs that one could say are bigger then arsenal. I could only name 6-7. So saying they are not a club of world reputation is bit fanciful.

gosplan

Weren't we saying the same about Fergie the year before Utd won the league again?

For years the league was a two horse race. Now that Chelsea have emerged and Liverpool have finally gotten a decent manager (and spent a load of cash) the league is no longer just Utd's and Arsenal's to lose.

Apart from Flamini (who left Arsenal in the same manner he came in) and Hleb (who's been more than adequately replaced with Nasri IMO), is there any more about this argument that you have to HOLD on to players?

Wenger knows that he can't outspend Chelsea, Liverpool (who have reported financial difficulties), the new Man City, and Utd (who's supporters noticeably shut about the whole Glazer thing these days).

A combination of building a young team and buying in players is the only way to make the club competitive at the highest level again. Right now the important part is buying in players as the positions we need most (CB and DMF) aren't coming through the ranks.

I'd also argue that if Flamini hadn't left on a free for the much higher wages on offer at Milan, nobody would be making this argument about the direction of the club and the sell-by-date of the manager.

Mitch Connor

gosplan wrote: »

Weren't we saying the same about Fergie the year before Utd won the league again?

For years the league was a two horse race. Now that Chelsea have emerged and Liverpool have finally gotten a decent manager (and spent a load of cash) the league is no longer just Utd's and Arsenal's to lose.

Apart from Flamini (who left Arsenal in the same manner he came in) and Hleb (who's been more than adequately replaced with Nasri IMO), is there any more about this argument that you have to HOLD on to players?

Wenger knows that he can't outspend Chelsea, Liverpool (who have reported financial difficulties), the new Man City, and Utd (who's supporters noticeably shut about the whole Glazer thing these days).

A combination of building a young team and buying in players is the only way to make the club competitive at the highest level again. Right now the important part is buying in players as the positions we need most (CB and DMF) aren't coming through the ranks.

I'd also argue that if Flamini hadn't left on a free for the much higher wages on offer at Milan, nobody would be making this argument about the direction of the club and the sell-by-date of the manager.

What do you mean United supporters are noticably 'shut' about Glazer?

If you mean we don't care now that we are winning the league again, you couldn't be further from the truth imo. The reason you don't hear us talking about Glazer and the debt situation is that everyone has already made up their mind and given their opinion.

There are those (like me) who see the massive debt as a massive issue that is basically being hidden away but one that is almost certain to bite us in the ass, especailly with the economic downturn. And while I don't think it will effect us this season, or next, the inability to refinance the PIC financing is a massive problem that doesn't seem to have a solution at this point.

Then you have those who believe fully that the debt is managable and not a problem, and unlikely to ever be a real problem.

The arguments have been had, and the opinions have been heard - there is simply no point and no real inclination to have the same argument over it ever few months.

I am delighted with the success with have had recently, but I honestly believe it is not down to the Glazers - out spending power would have been far greater if we did not have to service the massive debt they placed on the club, and they have actually put none of their own cash up to support the club or buy players. United fund the player purchases and fund the servicing of the debt.

LuckyLloyd

eZe^ wrote: »

I had a massive post that didn't go through and I can't be bothered to post it again. Basically, when do we admit that Wenger's fate in youngsters over established players has failed w.r.t silverware? We are already slowly seeing his next youth team with the likes of Willshire and Vela.

If Arsene truly believes the squad he has atm is good enough to win titles then I think he needs to be replaced, perhaps by the a young charismatic intelligent manager (which seems to be the mould for new managers these days) like Unai Emery.

However fair enough if he has had no money to work with, but if that's the case then I think Arsenal supporters need to realise that it is unlikely they'll win much silverware with this mentality and regime, let Arsene do what he's been doing and accept their current fate and predicament.

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

That is Arsenal's problem right there. They are constantly a team in transition.

I really couldn't disagree with you guys more I'm afraid. Arsenal:

- had a perfect Premiership season in 2003 / 4 (have people forgotten this??!!);
- won the FA Cup in 2004 / 5;
- reached the Champions League Final in 2005 / 6;

They were right in the mix up until two and half seasons ago. Since that point, Lehmann, Henry, Campbell, Pires, Cole have departed. A new stadium has been built and moved into. How impatient are people?

Wenger came in and built his first side which won the double in 1998 with Bould, Adams, Seamen, Anelka, Petit, Overmars etc. They then won nothing for three seasons (98 / 9, 99 / 0, 00 / 1) until they did another double in 2001 / 2. That team then destroyed English football for the next couple of years climaxing in the perfect league season.

So, Wenger is in the process of building his third team on a limited budget. But if they win nothing this year, Wenger will not have gone a record period of time without silverware! Maybe the only just charge against Wenger is that he should have gotten rid of Henry and started a determined strike towards phase three with more gusto a season earlier. But I can understand if a Champions League Final appearance muddied his view somewhat.

The impatience of football fans today is quite laughable. Arsenal have one of the best managers in the world at the helm - a man who has twice rebuilt a squad to win doubles. A man who has achieved a level of perfection that remains beyond any previous premiership manager (and could well stay beyond those to come for decades). Has he not earned a four or five year space to bring his youth policy to fruition and build team three on the most relatively sparse budget he has had to work with yet?

I just boggle at the attitudes of people watching the game today. In a different universe where Alex Ferguson takes over United in 2006 as opposed to 1986 there is no dynasty - as he is out on his ear after 18 - 24 months. This discussion echoes the **** we had to read here back in February about sacking Benitez because we'll 'never' mount a title challenge under him.

You all forget how high the bar currently is in the Premiership. There is now four teams that are consistently in the top six of all of Europe. They are the competition. The Arsenal team of the last two seasons and this year wins the Bundesliga; French Division One; goes down to the wire in Seria A and La Liga. But winning the Premiership is a much tougher challenge (and this year the level outside the top four has lifted also). When you talk of rebuilding a club to win this league, it's a much tougher project to undertake than the toughest things any of us have been involved in our work lives.

And talk of constant transition is bollocks also. Wenger is two and half years into it. If he hasn't earned at least twice as much time to get the job done then ultimately football has become a soulless and meritless universe, devoid of logic and rationality. And if ye did get your way, you bring in...(lol at any O' Neill answers)

jank

When talking about Arsenal you have to take a step back. How far off the pace are they? 11 points? Not really a disaster by any means. Not great either. Now I know they are not going to win the league or challenge this year but I would be reasonably confident of getting 4th.

One has to remember all the injury problems there is at Arsenal. At this moment we have Cesc, Walcott, Rosicky and Eduardo out. Thats 4 first team players with Cesc being the best player in the club. Also we didnt replace flamini which was a huge mistake and more so let Gilberto go even bigger mistake for all his faults. And with all that we are still in the CL with a good shout of a quarter final, good shout for 5th round FA cup and very much in the hunt for a CL place.

Of course the standard of the opposition has been raised aswell. The new money that has started flowing in is making things very interesting especially at the bottom of the table. However, this new found strength of the other clubs is a false dawn IMO as most of that money is borrowed.

Of course when you look back at past glorys it is always better. The team of 2004 was arguably the best ever seen in english football. The thing that changed everything was Roman Abramovich. Roman changed english football and IMO it has been a disaster . A club that is not foreign owned, used as a hobby is rare.

If he didnt come in to the fray in 2005 then Arsenal and United would have been battling it out for the league for the last few seasons. In fact they would have won the league in 05 but chelsea were outstanding that year under jose so they got the honours. But thats all history....

United were a richer club so they could compete sort of with the transfers that were floating around for top players. Arsenal could not, well they could but it would just be red ink with no guarantee of a return of investment. It would have been a stupid move, so they took a conservative approach.

Arsenal saw this and they were not going to spend hundreds of millions for players in the way chelsea did. Those days are long gone for chelsea. Instead they went for a sustanable approach to running a club. Youth. Now this has mixed results so far but we need to compare like with like. Will the last few years for Chelsea deemed a sucess if it bankrupts the club? Would chelsea fans be happy with 2 league trophies but 5 years of championship football to restructure the club. We live, or should i say lived in a "I want it now" society. This is over, as the next few years cheap credit for you and I aswell for pinup football club owners is over. Case in point where mike ashley cannot even sell his club. Business men are keeping their hands in their pockets and will do so for the short term future. Newcastle are in dire straights.

I dont think people realise how bad the economy is world wide. we had it good, very good really since the end of the cold war. Bit of a coincidence the good times in english football have risen with the rise of the british economy?! Well the british economy is anything but strong at the moment. Predictions are it is going to suffer most of the G8. The next few years for the average football fan is going to be very hard on the pockets. Clubs will suffer.

Chelsea are 700 million in debt and that is without a new stadium. They are bankrolled by roman. There is no way in hell they are going to survive if he pulls out. Clauses or no clauses about the debt. The days where big rich business men bought football clubs for fun are OVER! Who in their right mind is going to spend the kind of money Roman did, or DIC for man city will claim to spend. Transfers are going to come down and wages will stabilise. There is money to be made in football but money going out far exceeds the money coming in. Sooner or later debts have to be paid.

To my mind portsmouth and west ham, both foreign owned are trying to sell players to raise cash to balance the books, for the time being. Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Look at all the money sunderland have spent! Thats crazy money wasted. Liverpools future looks very uncertain as some strong rumors suggest. We all know about Uniteds debt.

Now im not predicting that all these clubs are going to be playing in the milk league next year. But I predict at least one club being bankrupt by end of this year.

Whats the point of all this. Well I think Arsenal are in it for the long run and their recent strategy suggests this. Yea they do have debt but this is managed and controlled and not growing at an alarming rate. I would put them as one of the safer clubs given the recent economic tormoil.

So i come back to my point. No Arsenal are not setting the world on fire at the moment. But there are only a few players away from a strong squad. Also I think the board say that money is available all the time but the reality is not this. There might be money for a player, but Wenger always looks at the big picture. If he can spend nothing get 3/4th year in year out while clubs around him are weighed down by debt then that will do him fine.

I suppose the story about the turtle and the hare comes to mind.

Wenger. No he should not leave as there is nobody else that can do a better job. Even I have lost the handle sometimes calling for him to be sacked for this or that but on relfection who can do better? The board arent going to come up with 200 million for a new manger to spend on players. So keep the faith. If you think its frustrating for us fans im sure wenger is feeling it x10.

The thing is, will there be a thread in 18 months time saying what a genius Wenger is as clubs around him are falling like flies.? We are in for interesting times!

In wenger we trust!

ArmaniJeanss

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Arsenal:

- had a perfect Premiership season in 2003 / 4 (have people forgotten this??!!);

This is a very complicated way of saying that won the league that season?

I'm not sure what was perfect about it, though I'm assuming you mean that they happened to go unbeaten. Its a fairly meaningless statistic though, much overplayed by the SkySports gang. In theory you can go unbeaten and still get relegated with 38 points.
Total Points wise (which is far more relevant than number of defeats) that Arsenal team weren't anything especially out of the ordinary for league winners, iirc.
Wenger cant live off that for ever and personally I think Arsenal should be showing him the door during the summer unless they have a much better 2nd half to this season.

(Pool fan me by the way).

Mr Alan

Excellent post Jank.

keane2097

He'd make a great scout :pac:

LuckyLloyd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is a very complicated way of saying that won the league that season?

I'm not sure what was perfect about it, though I'm assuming you mean that they happened to go unbeaten. Its a fairly meaningless statistic though, much overplayed by the SkySports gang. In theory you can go unbeaten and still get relegated with 38 points.
Total Points wise (which is far more relevant than number of defeats) that Arsenal team weren't anything especially out of the ordinary for league winners, iirc.
Wenger cant live off that for ever and personally I think Arsenal should be showing him the door during the summer unless they have a much better 2nd half to this season.

(Pool fan me by the way).

Sigh. Yeah, going an entire campaign without being beat is nothing out of the ordinary. And hang managers that go three seasons without silverware irrespective of their pedigree or background context to their situation. Whopping.

jank

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is a very complicated way of saying that won the league that season?

I'm not sure what was perfect about it, though I'm assuming you mean that they happened to go unbeaten. Its a fairly meaningless statistic though, much overplayed by the SkySports gang. In theory you can go unbeaten and still get relegated with 38 points.
Total Points wise (which is far more relevant than number of defeats) that Arsenal team weren't anything especially out of the ordinary for league winners, iirc.
Wenger cant live off that for ever and personally I think Arsenal should be showing him the door during the summer unless they have a much better 2nd half to this season.

(Pool fan me by the way).

So Wenger leaves. Then what?

Kevster

All I hope really is that he resigns before he is sacked. I think he has to recognise that his team has crumbled over the past few years, especially since DAvid Dein left. Dein was the man who got him the job in the first place. Now, there is no friendship like that between Arsene and the Arsenal board.

He's a great manager - of course - but I'd like to see him move-on, maybe back to France or something.

ArmaniJeanss

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sigh. Yeah, going an entire campaign without being beat is nothing out of the ordinary.

Its an achievement but I still think its overrated. If they'd lost that last game (against Fulham I think) it wouldn't in my opinion have taken one iota away from the real achievment of winning the league. Doing it unbeaten was no more than a statisitical footnote, as if they'd won it with fewest goals conceded, smallest squad, or with all players born within 20 miles of Glasgow or something.
Football is about winning games, not avoiding defeat, though the nouveau fan might be forgiven for forgetting that when they hear Sky Sports wet themselves over the 'unbeaten in 5 games' nonsense.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And hang managers that go three seasons without silverware irrespective of their pedigree or background context to their situation. Whopping.

Who suggested he be hung, lets stop using tabloid style exaggeration of what people said.
In my opinion (and others are free to disagree) Arsenal have made a series of backward steps over the last few seasons, the manager is arguing with an ever increasing amount of players, a succession of youth team superstars that were to be future first teamers have been shown to be below the required quality.
And therefore I think it would be a good time for a change at the top. The simple truth is... there always come a time, even for the best managers.

Mr Alan

personally, i think Arsene Wenger would be the man to restore Real Madrid to their former heights. Hope it never happens though.

jesus_thats_gre

gosplan wrote: »

I'd also argue that if Flamini hadn't left on a free for the much higher wages on offer at Milan, nobody would be making this argument about the direction of the club and the sell-by-date of the manager.

Of course there wouldn't be. However, the fact remains that he did leave and Arsenal seem to be in major trouble as a direct result.

The post I made at the start of the thread was an attempt to discuss why he, and others, seem to leave Arsenal at the rate of 1 or 2 a season. I have not really seen any Arsenal fans discuss why.

yahoo_moe

eZe^ wrote: »

when do we admit that Wenger's fate in youngsters over established players has failed w.r.t silverware? ... If Arsene truly believes the squad he has atm is good enough to win titles then I think he needs to be replaced

I don't really believe that Wenger has full faith in the current squad to win silverware. And I don't think that's how Arsenal are judging Arsene Wenger right now to be honest.

It's about risk and reward for me. I posted this yesterday in the Arsenal thread:

Yes, we probably need more/better players to win a league again but I think a lot of Arsenal fans are missing the point that we haven't really been putting all our eggs in the league-winning basket for the last few years. We don't need better players to guarantee Premier League survival, we mightn't need better players to secure Champions League football again and we mightn't even need better players to win the Champions League itself this season. And that's what the club is set up to aim for at the moment if you ask me, not risking big amounts of money with no extra guarantee that you'll win the league.

Current domestic and European champions United have forked out 45m or so since the end of last season and it guarantees nothing come next May. Except more debt.

jesus_thats_gre

jank wrote: »

You serious? Chelsea in the top tier of world clubs. You know there are only a very very small handful of clubs that one could say are bigger then arsenal. I could only name 6-7. So saying they are not a club of world reputation is bit fanciful.

I am not quite sure what you are raising issue with. I made one or two statements to help make my point. Whether Chelsea are more regarded on a world wide stage isn't really the discussion that I was hoping to prompt.

In case it isn't clear, it would be extremely stupid for Arsenal to sack Wenger. I just think that if he adjusted his policies ever so slightly, they would be virtually unstoppable.

SWAR

jank wrote: »

When talking about Arsenal you have to take a step back. How far off the pace are they? 11 points? Not really a disaster by any means. Not great either. Now I know they are not going to win the league or challenge this year but I would be reasonably confident of getting 4th.

One has to remember all the injury problems there is at Arsenal. At this moment we have Cesc, Walcott, Rosicky and Eduardo out. Thats 4 first team players with Cesc being the best player in the club. Also we didnt replace flamini which was a huge mistake and more so let Gilberto go even bigger mistake for all his faults. And with all that we are still in the CL with a good shout of a quarter final, good shout for 5th round FA cup and very much in the hunt for a CL place.

Of course the standard of the opposition has been raised aswell. The new money that has started flowing in is making things very interesting especially at the bottom of the table. However, this new found strength of the other clubs is a false dawn IMO as most of that money is borrowed.

Of course when you look back at past glorys it is always better. The team of 2004 was arguably the best ever seen in english football. The thing that changed everything was Roman Abramovich. Roman changed english football and IMO it has been a disaster . A club that is not foreign owned, used as a hobby is rare.

If he didnt come in to the fray in 2005 then Arsenal and United would have been battling it out for the league for the last few seasons. In fact they would have won the league in 05 but chelsea were outstanding that year under jose so they got the honours. But thats all history....

United were a richer club so they could compete sort of with the transfers that were floating around for top players. Arsenal could not, well they could but it would just be red ink with no guarantee of a return of investment. It would have been a stupid move, so they took a conservative approach.

Arsenal saw this and they were not going to spend hundreds of millions for players in the way chelsea did. Those days are long gone for chelsea. Instead they went for a sustanable approach to running a club. Youth. Now this has mixed results so far but we need to compare like with like. Will the last few years for Chelsea deemed a sucess if it bankrupts the club? Would chelsea fans be happy with 2 league trophies but 5 years of championship football to restructure the club. We live, or should i say lived in a "I want it now" society. This is over, as the next few years cheap credit for you and I aswell for pinup football club owners is over. Case in point where mike ashley cannot even sell his club. Business men are keeping their hands in their pockets and will do so for the short term future. Newcastle are in dire straights.

I dont think people realise how bad the economy is world wide. we had it good, very good really since the end of the cold war. Bit of a coincidence the good times in english football have risen with the rise of the british economy?! Well the british economy is anything but strong at the moment. Predictions are it is going to suffer most of the G8. The next few years for the average football fan is going to be very hard on the pockets. Clubs will suffer.

Chelsea are 700 million in debt and that is without a new stadium. They are bankrolled by roman. There is no way in hell they are going to survive if he pulls out. Clauses or no clauses about the debt. The days where big rich business men bought football clubs for fun are OVER! Who in their right mind is going to spend the kind of money Roman did, or DIC for man city will claim to spend. Transfers are going to come down and wages will stabilise. There is money to be made in football but money going out far exceeds the money coming in. Sooner or later debts have to be paid.

To my mind portsmouth and west ham, both foreign owned are trying to sell players to raise cash to balance the books, for the time being. Thats just the tip of the iceberg. Look at all the money sunderland have spent! Thats crazy money wasted. Liverpools future looks very uncertain as some strong rumors suggest. We all know about Uniteds debt.

Now im not predicting that all these clubs are going to be playing in the milk league next year. But I predict at least one club being bankrupt by end of this year.

Whats the point of all this. Well I think Arsenal are in it for the long run and their recent strategy suggests this. Yea they do have debt but this is managed and controlled and not growing at an alarming rate. I would put them as one of the safer clubs given the recent economic tormoil.

So i come back to my point. No Arsenal are not setting the world on fire at the moment. But there are only a few players away from a strong squad. Also I think the board say that money is available all the time but the reality is not this. There might be money for a player, but Wenger always looks at the big picture. If he can spend nothing get 3/4th year in year out while clubs around him are weighed down by debt then that will do him fine.

I suppose the story about the turtle and the hare comes to mind.

Wenger. No he should not leave as there is nobody else that can do a better job. Even I have lost the handle sometimes calling for him to be sacked for this or that but on relfection who can do better? The board arent going to come up with 200 million for a new manger to spend on players. So keep the faith. If you think its frustrating for us fans im sure wenger is feeling it x10.

The thing is, will there be a thread in 18 months time saying what a genius Wenger is as clubs around him are falling like flies.? We are in for interesting times!

In wenger we trust!

First of all, excellent post and some very well made points but I have to disagree slightly with some of your comments.

Yes I suppose Arsenal are a stable club and that may stand to them in the long run, especially if they miss out on the Champions League places this season (which is definately a possibility) and the huge loss of revenue that would result in; however I also feel that they have dropped off the pace as a result. Their stability is obviously as a result of their refusal to spend rediculous money on high profile players, don't get me wrong this is admirable, and I also admire Wenger for his ability to spot a 17 year old prospect to mature into a role; however when these players do eventually mature into top class players, I feel this is where Arsenal's policies come into question. It is their inability to hold onto to some of these players due to their wage structure that is one of the biggest problems. Now I'm not saying I agree with the type of wages top players are being paid these days but that's the way football has gone and it's not going to change in the short term...economic crisis or no economic crisis. Football clubs will always have the ability to raise capital from financial institutions due to the fact that they are revenue generating organisations and this will not change either. I think most die hard English football fans would rather go hungry for the week than miss out on a trip to see their team play at the weekend! Arsenal have seen Rosiky and Flamini leave due to the fact that they were offerred considerably more money and I wouldn't be surprised if Fabregas and a few others leave in the summer also and without sounding like a broken record, this will become more likely to happen if Arsenal finish 5th. What will happen the - will we see another few 17 or 18 year old kids playing centre midfield for Arsenal and everyone saying "give Wenger time, he's building a team". In saying that the wage structure is obviously not Wenger's fault, it's a combination of Wenger and the board.

Regardless of what I think - I don't think Wenger is going anywhere, unless he decides enough is enough!

gosplan

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

The post I made at the start of the thread was an attempt to discuss why he, and others, seem to leave Arsenal at the rate of 1 or 2 a season.

Such as?

I'm not sure you can include the likes of Pires, Viera, Henry, Bergkamp, Campbell or Ljundberg in there because everyone is pretty much unanimous that it was time for all of them to go.

Remember you've based your argument on:

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

current established and experienced players

My point is that Hleb was allowed leave because he had a replacement. Diarra simply didn't want to fight for a place but he doesn't match that description anyway.

Basically, I think you've made a sweeping point about Arsenal football club and the direction it's going in but you've based the whole thing on one player leaving for AC Milan.

yahoo_moe

SWAR wrote: »

Arsenal have seen Rosiky and Flamini leave due to the fact that they were offerred considerably more money

I assume you mean Hleb - at this stage, getting anyone to buy Rosicky would be great business by Arsenal.

Mr Alan

gosplan wrote: »

I'm not sure you can include the likes of Viera, Henry, Campbell because everyone is pretty much unanimous that it was time for all of them to go.

really?!!?!?!?

SWAR

yahoo_moe wrote: »

I assume you mean Hleb - at this stage, getting anyone to buy Rosicky would be great business by Arsenal.

Yes I did, well spotted. Rosicky is obviously still there for the moment!!!!!

gosplan

Mr Alan wrote: »

really?!!?!?!?

Well I thought so anyway. Perhaps you have different opinions on it.


My point is that if Wenger had gone out and replaced Flamini during the summer (which he tried to do, and reportedly nearly did, with Alonso) nobody would be saying anything.

So the man's time has come because he failed to sign a DMF in a single transfer window?

Obviously there's more to the argument than that but I don't think anyone would be making it if we weren't missing that player.

Frisbee

gosplan wrote: »

My point is that if Wenger had gone out and replaced Flamini during the summer (which he tried to do, and reportedly nearly did, with Alonso) nobody would be saying anything.

So the man's time has come because he failed to sign a DMF in a single transfer window?

Obviously there's more to the argument than that but I don't think anyone would be making it if we weren't missing that player.

I think this is the main point.
If we hadnt have lost Flamini and Gilberto in the summer, or even if we had have gotten Alonso, we would be sitting much better in the league table.
Wenger, for me, is a visionary, he's kept this club running on a tiny budget and we've still qualified for 10 CL in a row.
It's time's like this that will define a manager and while I'm disappointed that Arshavin is the kind of player he's looking to sign, none of us know what Wenger has up his sleeve for a DM.
Maybe he'll pull another Clichy out of the hat. Maybe it will be more like a Djemba-Djemba.
We'll just have to wait and see.

Highsider

Wenger is and should be judged by the silverware Arsenal win and it's been lacking in recent years. He like every manager will live or die by their results and at the moment he is on a life support machine IMO.

SWAR

gosplan wrote: »

Well I thought so anyway. Perhaps you have different opinions on it.


My point is that if Wenger had gone out and replaced Flamini during the summer (which he tried to do, and reportedly nearly did, with Alonso) nobody would be saying anything.

So the man's time has come because he failed to sign a DMF in a single transfer window?

Obviously there's more to the argument than that but I don't think anyone would be making it if we weren't missing that player.

I think not replacing Flamini was obviously a huge mistake, ok maybe he did try and sign Alonso, but I'm not so sure how close he came to signing him. I think Rafa would be very reluctant to sell him to one of his rivals, but I think the main issue seems to be that it happens time and time again with Arsenal over the last few years. Wenger seems content to let go of his experienced players and replace them with kids. As I said in a previos post, I can see a similar trend occuring in the summer, with the likes of Fabregas on his way out, regardless of whether Arsenal get CL places or not.

FWIW I don't think it was the right time to sell Henry, Viera maybe and Campbell maybe but definately not Henry.

Frisbee

SWAR wrote: »

FWIW I don't think it was the right time to sell Henry, Viera maybe and Campbell maybe but definately not Henry.

It was definitely the right time to sell all of them.
All of them wanted out and Wenger made a tidy profit on them, whereas if he had have waited another year he wouldn't have got enough.

jank

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I am not quite sure what you are raising issue with. I made one or two statements to help make my point. Whether Chelsea are more regarded on a world wide stage isn't really the discussion that I was hoping to prompt.

In case it isn't clear, it would be extremely stupid for Arsenal to sack Wenger. I just think that if he adjusted his policies ever so slightly, they would be virtually unstoppable.

You seem to be saying that Arsenal dont have the history, to attract top players. But I agree it is off topic.

SWAR

Frisbee wrote: »

It was definitely the right time to sell all of them.
All of them wanted out and Wenger made a tidy profit on them, whereas if he had have waited another year he wouldn't have got enough.

I disagree, you have to ask yourself why Henry wanted out, it was obviously a money issue, which goes back to my point about Arsenal's wage structure in a previous post. So if Fabregas, Van Persie, Walcott etc etc etc say in May they have been offered more money elsewhere (which is a possibility) and they want out - is it then the right time to sell them?

jank

Football clubs generate capital but if the debt is more then the club is worth then you are in a bit of a fix. Ango Irish Bank are still making a profit afaik but the reason their shares have nosedived is that they have a loan book of 50 billion or so. What is 50 million profit when you are that much in debt. Might not be the right comparison. Some fans will go hungry to see their team play, but not all. Turnover for all clubs will be affected and those on a weak footing this may be the end. Expect loads of newspapers to do these types of stories over the coming monts.

About Arsenal, well what young player has left because of arsenal unwilling to pay them more. The only player Arsenal really wanted to keep that left was Flamini. The rest were over their best. In hindsight it would have been good to keep gilberto but them the breaks. Of course the thing that got arsenal this year is not that these players left but they werent replaced. Id expect at least 2 players come in this transfer window. One known player, another unknown.

This summer will be important though.

PHB

Arsenal have **** all money. People need to realise this. Their transfer budget is effectively 0.

Arsenal will be a team in transition until the Emirates is paid off for. But Wenger will have somehow kept them in the CL for that time. How they managed to keep Wenger is beyond me.

kippy

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Of course there wouldn't be. However, the fact remains that he did leave and Arsenal seem to be in major trouble as a direct result.

The post I made at the start of the thread was an attempt to discuss why he, and others, seem to leave Arsenal at the rate of 1 or 2 a season. I have not really seen any Arsenal fans discuss why.

Not an Arsenal fan, but I would think its a combination of:
1. Wage Structure
2. Competition for places.
3. Desire to have more first team football.
In that order.
I think the wage structure at Arsenal has been detrimental in the past few years, which is why perhaps more higher profile established players arent playing there. The younger players who wouldnt necessarily be on astounding wages suit their structure but once these players show any form of promise, the want more money and the most they can get is generally not at Arsenal. All but the most loyal of us would probably be doing the same think were we a player in their position.

Arsene has had a lean few seasons but the question to be asked would be who would you replace him with and how long would he be given to win trophys? At the moment there's no one better out there for a club such as Arsenal. They need to increase their wage ceilings for a start to hold onto their better players, and shore up one or two positions. One hardman midfielder and right winger would add a lot to this team and they aren't that far away from being top class.

Frisbee

SWAR wrote: »

I disagree, you have to ask yourself why Henry wanted out, it was obviously a money issue, which goes back to my point about Arsenal's wage structure in a previous post. So if Fabregas, Van Persie, Walcott etc etc etc say in May they have been offered more money elsewhere (which is a possibility) and they want out - is it then the right time to sell them?

No, but Henry, Campbell and Vieira were all approaching 30, and it was quite clear their heads were not with Arsenal anymore.
I think Wenger did the right thing.

jank

I disagree, you have to ask yourself why Henry wanted out, it was obviously a money issue, which goes back to my point about Arsenal's wage structure in a previous post. So if Fabregas, Van Persie, Walcott etc etc etc say in May they have been offered more money elsewhere (which is a possibility) and they want out - is it then the right time to sell them?

Totally wrong. Henry was one of the best paid players in the world at Arsenal after he signed a new contract. He got 5 million signing on fee afaik. And he was getting 5 million a year after that. Henry was sold because his pace was gone and the team was going to be rebuilt around Cesc.

These other players you mention I believe are on good wages at Arsenal, with maybe the exception of Walcott. Cesc will be a target of course but if you hear the guy, who let me add has just been made club captain there is more to motivate him then money.

Wreck

A lot of people in this thread seem to believe that Arsenal should be competing for the title as a matter of right. The fact is that this is not the case. Arsenal cannot compete financially with Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea without running the risk of placing the club in a very precarious financial position. Since the Premiership began, Arsenal have very much over achieved by winning all the trophies they have. Even before Wenger, the club rarely spent huge amounts in the transfer market, for the simpler reason that they can't afford to. Outside of the other three 'big' teams in the PL, at various stages Arsenal have been hugely outspent by the likes of Blackburn, Leeds and Newcastle, yet Arsenal have consistently been competitive.

And the best chance of remaining competitive lies with Wenger. It won't guarantee that Arsenal ever win another trophy, but there is nothing that will. The guy is a managerial genius. In the transfer market, he has the ability to spot young raw talent and nurture it into worldclass players (Fabregas, Cole, Clichy). He also has the ability to see what many would regard as journeyman players and turn them into worldbeaters (Petit, Henry, Viera). He lengthens the careers of older players through proper training rather than squad rotation. He can also judge players that will plug a gap for the team and perform admirably doing so (Kanu and Grimandi spring to mind).

It is not just his ability to recognise and develop talent that sets him apart, it is his whole atittude to the game. His sides play the type of football that most clubs can only dream about playing. All the players work hard for each other, know their roles in the team, but are also given the freedom to express themselves. Wenger has trust in his players' talents, and this consistently results in the best football I have ever seen from any side. And it is not just the first team that play like this, but every side the club puts out.

Before this rant gets out of hand I better sum things up. Wenger is what makes Arsenal competitive in the premiership. Chelsea have Abramovich's millions, Man Utd and Liverpool have massive fanbases and rich histories. Arsenal have Wenger.

yahoo_moe

Highsider wrote: »

Wenger is and should be judged by the silverware Arsenal win

I really really don't think this is (or should be) the case. Has the Arsenal board ever expressed concern about their choice of manager? Or suggested that he's underachieving? He's not - he's overachieving.

He like every manager will live or die by their results

Yes - but by the standards I think he's being judged by (and that he's working to right now), the last few years have all been very acceptable.

Frisbee

Wreck wrote: »

Before this rant gets out of hand I better sum things up. Wenger is what makes Arsenal competitive in the premiership. Chelsea have Abramovich's millions, Man Utd and Liverpool have massive fanbases and rich histories. Arsenal have Wenger.

Aye, you lot really got a raw deal tbf

LuckyLloyd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Its an achievement but I still think its overrated. If they'd lost that last game (against Fulham I think) it wouldn't in my opinion have taken one iota away from the real achievment of winning the league. Doing it unbeaten was no more than a statisitical footnote, as if they'd won it with fewest goals conceded, smallest squad, or with all players born within 20 miles of Glasgow or something.
Football is about winning games, not avoiding defeat, though the nouveau fan might be forgiven for forgetting that when they hear Sky Sports wet themselves over the 'unbeaten in 5 games' nonsense.


Who suggested he be hung, lets stop using tabloid style exaggeration of what people said.
In my opinion (and others are free to disagree) Arsenal have made a series of backward steps over the last few seasons, the manager is arguing with an ever increasing amount of players, a succession of youth team superstars that were to be future first teamers have been shown to be below the required quality.
And therefore I think it would be a good time for a change at the top. The simple truth is... there always come a time, even for the best managers.

First off, if you think I am a typical sky sport punditry believing; tabloid reading sort of football fan you are gravely mistaken.

Saying "football is about winning games, not avoiding defeat" is rubbish in the context of an entire league campaign. Arsenal didn't stay unbeaten through hanging on and thinking defense first. They were marvellous in all departments and to play the way they did while maintaining a sufficient level of concentration and intensity to never lose a game in the process of a 38 game campaign is extraordinary. And it isn't just 'Sky Sports' who think that way about 2003 / 4.

As to the rest of what your saying, I'll just tell you straight that I think such a line of thought is bull****. And is more a product of the Sky Sports / tabloid penchant for punditry that is reactionary and hyperbolic. Ferguson went three years from 03 / 4 to 05 / 6 without making a fist of the league down to the wire or getting in the mix in Europe. Should he have been fired too? That period saw the departure of RVN, Keane, Beckham, Veron and the entry and settling in of new talent. Should he have been thrown under the bus in January 2006 because Utd had taken a step back during that period?

Arsenal will finish in the top four this year thus maintaining their Champions League status. I wouldn't completely write them off in the CL or FA Cup either. In my view, change for change sake is silly and there needs to be a very, very good reason to not give the very elite managers a number of years to rebuild a squad. Mourinhio, Hiddink and Cappello are not available now and won't be. If they were and interested there might be some merit in a grass is greener on the other side view. But when there is no viable alternative then what the **** are we talking about here?

LuckyLloyd

Highsider wrote: »

Wenger is and should be judged by the silverware Arsenal win and it's been lacking in recent years. He like every manager will live or die by their results and at the moment he is on a life support machine IMO.

Fulham won't win any silverware this year. As such, even if they end up with a top ten finish will it mean Roy Hodgson hasn't done a good job?

SWAR

jank wrote: »

Totally wrong. Henry was one of the best paid players in the world at Arsenal after he signed a new contract. He got 5 million signing on fee afaik. And he was getting 5 million a year after that. Henry was sold because his pace was gone and the team was going to be rebuilt around Cesc.

These other players you mention I believe are on good wages at Arsenal, with maybe the exception of Walcott. Cesc will be a target of course but if you hear the guy, who let me add has just been made club captain there is more to motivate him then money.

Ok, not saying you are wrong but I find it hard to believe that Arsenal were paying that kind of money let alone a sign on fee, as I say maybe they were!

Sure the other players are on 'good money' (except Walcott who is on a reported £20k a week), £60k per week or maybe more? However there are certain clubs in England, let alone Europe, that would double that figure should they see a place for Fabregas within their makeup.

Yes I agree Fabregas seems like a decent guy and is probably motivated by more than just money, trophies? CL Football? Sure Arsenal have a decent tradition in the CL over the past ten years but don't forget they nearly lost 4th spot to Spurs a few years ago and they may not be so lucky this year. Sure it was a clever ploy by Wenger to appoint him club captain (probably the best choice anyway FWIW) but really, how much allegiance do most of these forign footballers have to their clubs, not a lot IMO. I would say it's 50;50 whether Fabregas stays or goes in the summer.