Humphreys or O'Gara for 6Nations

RugbyFanatic

I just want to post a poll to guage the forums opinions on this matter personally I think its time to start the in form outhalf of the country. It's a risk but the way O'Garas playing maybe its just as much a risk to play him continuesly? Add to that the benefit of having new players getting game time with the WC only 2 years away and I cant see any reason why not to

Sabre0001

Humphreys

It's not as clear cut as that...Sure O'Gara is in a slump but has big match experience behind him (and has pulled Ireland out of the fire on more than one occasion). Humphreys does need a couple of matches at International level but I wouldn't just declare that he should outright replace him.

So, O'Gara...

sock puppet

Humphreys

I'd like to see O'gara start against France but Humphries to start some matches. He should be used as a sub too and not just spend the whole competition warming the bench.

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

So, how did you rate Humphreys against Leinster last week?

The guy is an ok player, but I'd be surprised if he could play at Int level for any length of time.

Stev_o

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

So, how did you rate Humphreys against Leinster last week?

The guy is an ok player, but I'd be surprised if he could play at Int level for any length of time.

Alot more controlled then his counter part, had a good night with the boot too.

[Jackass]

Humphreys

Keatley is hands down the best prospect for Out Half in Irish rugby. He's the youngest of all the "pretenders", he's got the best and most composed place kick, he's good kicking ball from hand and the main development he needs is game control, which is still very good with flashes of absolute brilliance (anyone remember his 60 yard kick against Munster that left Munster with a line out 5 yards from their line? The type of kick even O'Gara only pulls off on his best days).

His tackling is good, although he may be a bit slight still for international rugby and his passing and running is good.

He's 21. Humphs is 26 and has been blowing hot and cold for years. Sexton can't place kick, and that's without pressure, O'Connor is very good and next in line to Keatley imo.

I think Keatley should be capped at least twice in the 6 nations from the bench. Gives humphs or someone a start if you want, but there's someone younger and better coming through, so no point holding up his oppertunities.

ironingbored

Sabre0001 wrote: »

It's not as clear cut as that...Sure O'Gara is in a slump but has big match experience behind him (and has pulled Ireland out of the fire on more than one occasion).

He has also dragged us into the inferno more times than lucifer. Against Argentina in the WC, twice against Wales 6N 2005 and 6N 2008 and utterly hopeless against the ABs recently.

barnesd

Humphreys

I would start ROG, I'd let him know very clearly his place is under threat, and tell him at sign of him playing ****e (as he has done for Ireland for a good while now) then someone else will be given an opportunity.

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

Stev_o wrote: »

Alot more controlled then his counter part, had a good night with the boot too.

Em, Warwick played most of the game, O'Gara went off injured after 14 minutes.

m@cc@

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Em, Warwick played most of the game, O'Gara went off injured after 14 minutes.

Em, fairly sure the question was in reply to a question about Leinster.

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

m@cc@ wrote: »

Em, fairly sure the question was in reply to a question about Leinster.

True enough, have to start paying more attention.

m@cc@

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

True enough, have to start paying more attention.

If you paid even more attention, you would have noticed I used the word question twice.

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

Keatley is hands down the best prospect for Out Half in Irish rugby. He's the youngest of all the "pretenders", he's got the best and most composed place kick, he's good kicking ball from hand and the main development he needs is game control, which is still very good with flashes of absolute brilliance (anyone remember his 60 yard kick against Munster that left Munster with a line out 5 yards from their line? The type of kick even O'Gara only pulls off on his best days).

His tackling is good, although he may be a bit slight still for international rugby and his passing and running is good.

He's 21. Humphs is 26 and has been blowing hot and cold for years. Sexton can't place kick, and that's without pressure, O'Connor is very good and next in line to Keatley imo.

I think Keatley should be capped at least twice in the 6 nations from the bench. Gives humphs or someone a start if you want, but there's someone younger and better coming through, so no point holding up his oppertunities.

But we dont know if he can run a backline and probably wont till he gets his A cap during the 6N. Then we will find out what sort of player he is. He does though need to work on his defence as he will be targeted

phog

Humphreys

Are people talking about forfeiting the 6Ns to help strengthen the squad for the next WC? There so much talk about dropping players and giving game time that it looks like anyone who featured in the WC squad in France are now to be dropped to make way for guys that have gad a few good runs in the ML or HC?

themont85

Humphreys

Stev_o wrote: »

But we dont know if he can run a backline and probably wont till he gets his A cap during the 6N. Then we will find out what sort of player he is. He does though need to work on his defence as he will be targeted

O'Gara is just as much a liablility in defence imo...

thehighground

Humphreys

themont85 wrote: »

O'Gara is just as much a liablility in defence imo...

The stats here do not support your opinion.

http://www.scrum.com/argentinatour/rugby/match/25759.html

Brewster

Folks, its too soon to be talking about Ian Humphreys replacing ROG. Im a huge fan of the guy and have followed his career closely! Its like people are trying to start another OGara/Humph debate!!! Too soon my friends, the debate will happen its just a matter of timing. I suspect myself the 6 Nations 2010 could be interesting in this regard... Ulster are developing into a super team and Id be optimistic they will have a good european campaign next year which will put Ian in spot light at very highest level.

What is for certain is the guy is class, he should be on the bench for certain this 6Nations and is certainly some one you could turn to to change a game if needed. He is streets ahead of Keatley and Sexton........

barnesd

Humphreys

thehighground wrote: »

The stats here do not support your opinion.

http://www.scrum.com/argentinatour/rugby/match/25759.html

One game? Proves nothing.

RugbyFanatic

thehighground wrote: »

The stats here do not support your opinion.

http://www.scrum.com/argentinatour/rugby/match/25759.html

:rolleyes:

One example? How about the hundreds of examples where he has missed easy tackles?



god all we need now is that chabal clip that has been posted thousands of times to be posted again for prove that ROG is a tackling machine

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

barnesd wrote: »

One game? Proves nothing.

And yet a handful of games show both Keatley and Humphs are ready for Int rugby?

Personally speaking, I suspect a top team would make bits of either of them.

O'Gara isn't great, but he's still the best we have.

thehighground

Humphreys

barnesd wrote: »

One game? Proves nothing.

Well here is another game. (There are other games that you can look up).

http://www.scrum.com/newzealandtour/rugby/match/25747.html

BOD, who is regarded as a very good defender doesn't do much better.

As for poor Luke

thehighground

Humphreys

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

:rolleyes:

One example? How about the hundreds of examples where he has missed easy tackles?

god all we need now is that chabal clip that has been posted thousands of times to be posted again for prove that ROG is a tackling machine

Your having a bad day, aren't you. Thing is, Ian Humphreys hasn't played any international rugby to know how good a defender he is at that level. We wouldn't want him to be targetted like Luke was by the ABs now, would we and if he was put in as starting OH, he would be targetted.

Pity Ian doesn't play any other position so that he might get a gentle intro into the international set-up a la Danny Cirpriani playing full back (even though he was playing regularly and making knock-out stages of HCup).

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

thehighground wrote: »

Your having a bad day, aren't you. Thing is, Ian Humphreys hasn't played any international rugby to know how good a defender he is at that level. We wouldn't want him to be targetted like Luke was by the ABs now, would we and if he was put in as starting OH, he would be targetted.

Pity Ian doesn't play any other position so that he might get a gentle intro into the international set-up a la Danny Cirpriani playing full back (even though he was playing regularly and making knock-out stages of HCup).

It's worth pointing out for most of his career, Ian Humph's has been known as such a poor defender that Leicester had to put him on the wing off the opposition set-piece. He's apparently improved under Williams but let's not pretend he's a destructive tackler or anything. The best thing in Ian's favour is that we have no-one else and ROG is getting older.

Matt Williams was on off the ball tonight and he was talking about his defending.He said a few weeks after he arrived they sat him down and basically said his defending wasnt good enough and until he improved they wouldnt play him.

He said he worked alot on it and he feels he has improved alot.Hence why they are now playing him.

boredatwork82

Ian Humphries is a poor defender, no arguing about that.
ROG is the best but needs a boot up the hole, and nothing like getting dropped to see ROG get motivated again.
Keatley is a class act, I don't think age is a factor, If your good enough internationak level eg bod, wilko, cipriani etc. The only way we will find out whether keatley or humps are international quality 10's is let them play in the 6 nations, lets find out now, and not in the build up to the RWC 2011.

In Keatleys case, he looks way better than warwick did for the past 2 seasons at connacht. Imagine Keatley in a team with class players, I'd like to see that soon enough. We saw the difference it made to Warwick, lets hope its the same with Keatley.

Gelio

Humphreys

O Gara is nowhere near a machine when it comes to tackling. I've seen him miss way to many simple tackles.

thehighground

Humphreys

ajeffares wrote: »

O Gara is nowhere near a machine when it comes to tackling. I've seen him miss way to many simple tackles.

And what do you think of Luke Fitzgerald's tackling?

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

And what do you think of Luke Fitzgerald's tackling?

He's put in a fair few spectacular hits this season, and really stepped up as a tackler.

I don't think Humphreys is a better player than O'Gara, but I think he's playing better. So I'd go for Humphreys.

thehighground

thehighground wrote: »

And what do you think of Luke Fitzgerald's tackling?

Far better than Rog's in general.
Not to mention he is around 12 years younger so will get better.
You can point to stats against NZ but overall if I had to pick one to play as a purely defending player it would be Fitz.
Defending isnt Rogs strongpoint but hes not picked for defending,so of course he still warrants a spot in the team,until one of the youngster proves they are ready.

bleg

Humphreys

barnesd wrote: »

One game? Proves nothing.

would this thread be open if it wasn't for humphreys "one game" against munster...proves nothing

John_C

thehighground wrote: »

Well here is another game. (There are other games that you can look up).

http://www.scrum.com/newzealandtour/rugby/match/25747.html

BOD, who is regarded as a very good defender doesn't do much better.

As for poor Luke

I'm not going to get involved in a petty debate but to mention that putting in tackles is the less important half of a defence. Positioning is much more important.

Putting in a bad tackle will still slow an attacker down, allowing your team mates to react. Letting a player run into space won't show up in these individual statistics but is the much bigger offence.

SomeFool

I think I'll wait and see how Humphries manages against 'Quinns and Stade before forming an opinion on his 6 Nations prospects. As for Keatley, I'm a big fan actually but he needs to be playing at a H.E.C level to be considered IMO. If I was coach and ROG was unavailavle Paddy Wallace would start at 10, putting an international novice in such a pivotal position would be coaching suicide. If a game was won with 20 mins or so left then maybe new caps could get a run.

Crash

thehighground wrote: »

And what do you think of Luke Fitzgerald's tackling?

Just have to mention, not sure you're reading that stat right (apologies if you are, and i'm just being presumptious).

Thats 10 tackles made, 7 missed, not 7/10. Not great by any means, but thats still more completed tackles made than any other player on the pitch, and he was obviously targeted. A complete shag up would've been 7 made, 10 missed, or higher. That stat just shows that he was deliberately put under an extreme level of pressure during the course of that game.

edit: oh, as for this, completely would start O'Gara for the big matches, with a PROPER option on the bench. in the smaller games, start Humphs with ROG on the bench, or Keatley with ROG there. The opportunity has to be provided, however, if we're in a decent position, to try the two lads out and see how they work off the bench. For the smaller games, it also means that if there's a complete implosion at 10 for some reason, we can bring on the tried and tested, even if he isn't top of his game currently.

Teg Veece

Humphreys

Anything other than this wrote: »

Just have to mention, not sure you're reading that stat right (apologies if you are, and i'm just being presumptious).

Thats 10 tackles made, 7 missed, not 7/10. Not great by any means, but thats still more completed tackles made than any other player on the pitch, and he was obviously targeted. A complete shag up would've been 7 made, 10 missed, or higher. That stat just shows that he was deliberately put under an extreme level of pressure during the course of that game.

7 tackles missed from 17 attempts is shockingly poor. There's no hiding that. Fair enough, the All Blacks targeted him but that's because they figured that he was a poor tackler and they were right. There's nothing to stop other teams from targeting him either. I don't think he's cut out to be an international centre. Maybe he'd be better off on the wing.

Back on topic though, O'Gara should be the first choice outhalf but this 6 Nations should also be used to introduce a viable replacement who gets decent game time. I'd have to see how Humphries performs in the remain HEC matches before I could decide between himself or Keatley for the replacement OH.

RugbyFanatic

Teg Veece wrote: »

7 tackles missed from 17 attempts is shockingly poor. There's no hiding that. Fair enough, the All Blacks targeted him but that's because they figured that he was a poor tackler and they were right. There's nothing to stop other teams from targeting him either. I don't think he's cut out to be an international centre. Maybe he'd be better off on the wing.

Fitzgerald was targeted 17 times by a guy (Nonu) who weighs more than our prop Horan to make 10 tackles out of 17 is hardly shockingly poor.

Whats shockingly poor is O'Gara missing countless simple tackles on players his size and smaller.

Also how did Fitzgerald get brought into an argument about Humphreys and O'Gara? Provincial nonsense but I'm not suprised you would bring this into it thehighground.


Anyways commenting on Humphreys tackling is a joke when ROG is a proven liability time and time again. Humphreys is in form so play him. I don't buy into this ''oh hes not ready for international though'' because right now ROG is playing like someone who has never played international rugby in his life and Humphreys looks more than up to it in comparison

Serenity Now!

Humphreys

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Fitzgerald was targeted 17 times by a guy (Nonu) who weighs more than our prop Horan to make 10 tackles out of 17 is hardly shockingly poor

Nonu does not weigh more than Horan.

ironingbored

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Nonu does not weigh more than Horan.

Marcus Horan 17 st (108 kg)
Ma'a Nonu 104 kg (16 st 5 lb)

Not much difference there to be fair.

buck65

Humphreys

Ok let's get O Gara out to be replaced by a guy who has shown some form at ML level. Ridiculous.
This is like a insisting that Earls should replace O Driscoll in the centre. Won't happen.
Declan kidney is manager he is hardly going to drop ROG.
O Gara has a year or 2 left at international level IMO he is still the best OH in the country and has been for the past 10 years. Of course Humphreys or Keatley should get 10 mins in a few games - these guys are still a season or 2 from O Gara's level. I love the way people get on the backs of guys like O Gara and O Connell and BOD all proven winners and still in their primes. I would be the first to criticise O Driscoll but I would never drop the guy. Provincial nonsense.

Erin Go Brath

We need to blood a new OH. I say give the young lad a chance, and we might be in better shape going towards the next WC.

premierstone

Humphreys

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Also how did Fitzgerald get brought into an argument about Humphreys and O'Gara? Provincial nonsense but I'm not suprised you would bring this into it thehighground.

Hello pot my name is kettle It probably happened for the same reason that every single thread you post in you have a dig at ROG, people in glasshouses mate :mad:

RuggieBear

rugbyfanatic, thehighground and premierstone,

you need to stop posting this tit for tat ****e at each other. it is tedious.

RF stop posting about rog. we get it...you don't rate him.

Teg Veece

Humphreys

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

Fitzgerald was targeted 17 times by a guy (Nonu) who weighs more than our prop Horan to make 10 tackles out of 17 is hardly shockingly poor.

Whats shockingly poor is O'Gara missing countless simple tackles on players his size and smaller.

Maybe the IRFU should write a letter of complaint to NZRU for exploiting the the unfair match-up between Fitz and his opposite number. Then issue a stern warning to any other teams who are thinking about doing the same.

Humphreys and Keatley need to be carefully brought onto the international stage by being introduced with 20 minutes on the clock when Ireland are in control. Not thrown to the lions like you're suggesting. That'll do none of their confidence any good.

barnesd

Humphreys

Lads, missing 7 tackles is a lot. An awful lot.

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

Ah leave Fitz alone, pity he lacks the out and out pace to be a wing, he doesn't look comfortable in the centre at all.

On topic though, it would be great to see someone come in and replace O'Gara, I just don't think Humphreys is that guy. How often does a guy go from being a journeyman to an International class outhalf in his mid to late 20's?

Colm_OReilly

Maybe a more productive thread would be:

"Humphs or Keatley: Who should be ROG's understudy this 6N?"

Would you start either? Or have them come on second half? Which games?

Probably more likely to happen.

Noopti

Humphreys

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Maybe a more productive thread would be:

"Humphs or Keatley: Who should be ROG's understudy this 6N?"

Would you start either? Or have them come on second half? Which games?

Probably more likely to happen.

They should be introduced slowly, as O'Gara was when Humphs Snr was in control of the 10 shirt.

crisco10

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Maybe a more productive thread would be:

"Humphs or Keatley: Who should be ROG's understudy this 6N?"

Would you start either? Or have them come on second half? Which games?

Probably more likely to happen.

It certainly would be a more realistic thread. I would go with Humphreys myself. A little older and wiser (relatively speaking of course) although he is about 2 years older than ROG was when he made his debut which makes it all the more important we try him out asap.

Keatley has a little more time on his hands.

I would name Humphreys on the bench against 1 or 2 of the big three and start him against italy/scotland..

cmcsoft

All the provincial cribbing aside let's be honest, we have always been slow to blood players at International level. I have no doubt that O'Gara will start the six nations and rightly so giving experience etc but I do feel that Humphreys (Keatley will be with Ireland A and I'll be hoping we'll see what he's capable of on the bigger stage) needs game time.

I saw him against Munster the other night and was impressed with him. okay Munster played badly bla bla bla but there are signs there that he is capable. I think at times Ireland can be accused of being a bit stale and I think a bit too predictive but I think he's definitely an option.

So O'Gara starting, Humphreys on the bench but I would like to see him getting more than a few minutes at the end of games....

Stev_o

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ah leave Fitz alone, pity he lacks the out and out pace to be a wing, he doesn't look comfortable in the centre at all.

On topic though, it would be great to see someone come in and replace O'Gara, I just don't think Humphreys is that guy. How often does a guy go from being a journeyman to an International class outhalf in his mid to late 20's?

Well considering that before Leicester he was playing in AIL 1st division for Belfast Harlequins and now consider that Leicester isnt a club thats likes buying journeymen, they have the same ethos that Munster have and obviously saw his talent and wanted to tap into it.

Amazotheamazing

Humphreys

Stev_o wrote: »

Well considering that before Leicester he was playing in AIL 1st division for Belfast Harlequins and now consider that Leicester isnt a club thats likes buying journeymen, they have the same ethos that Munster have and obviously saw his talent and wanted to tap into it.

Leicester have had loads of journeymen over the years. They have a massive squad. They still jettisoned Humph's though.

For example, Jeremy Staunton still gets games with Wasps, still gets MOTM's on occasion, but does that mean he should play for Ireland? No. He isn't consistent enough, neither is Humph's. Eoghan Hickey is getting games in the GP, but I don't think he's an option either.

I remember Humph's playing for Ireland A against England A (or Saxons as they're now called) two seasons ago, absolutely awful and this was just after he'd been crucial in helping Leicester win at Thomond. The guy is inconsistent imo. He'll get a few caps, probably even get a bit of hype, and then a real talent, maybe Keatley, possibly even a young guy like McKinley, will come through, imo.

Stev_o

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Leicester have had loads of journeymen over the years. They have a massive squad. They still jettisoned Humph's though.

For example, Jeremy Staunton still gets games with Wasps, still gets MOTM's on occasion, but does that mean he should play for Ireland? No. He isn't consistent enough, neither is Humph's. Eoghan Hickey is getting games in the GP, but I don't think he's an option either.

Hold up Staunton is a completely different story to Humphs and this year he got one MOTM against Leicester in the worst display of rugby iv ever seen. He is a truly dreadfull player and never recovered from his golden days with Munster were he was ahead of ROG.

Hickey is on loan playing for Worcester hardly cutting edge stuff.

Keatley hasnt run a backline and all we'v seen is him kick doesnt show alot.