Feature tables at ipc and other events

dagunman

Wasnt at the event, but was watching the updates and those gr8 video clips(i am not messin i did enjoy them,was a good idea and updates were v good). I am fairly sure the feature tables were hand picked and generally consisted of a line up of 6+ pro's. Does no one else think this is bs. Obv the orgainisers want to show off the line up of players they attracted but doing this is outrageous.
In away they are shooting themselves in the foot as nicky power was sayen the action was dead on it as a result. Also it makes it v hard 4 gud players to get chips early on when it should be most easiet, this results in donkey like reesy winning it. While nicky was sayen it was gr8 craic on it, he must be, along with others, been quite pissed off.
It was the same story in Kilarney. Something there happened that really pissed me off. They had the 3 tables on the stage with the big names on them. Anyway some fish at our table from the waterford area got a decent stack up from some v fishy plays and was surely going to dump his stack back v soon. We were 8 handed at the time in a 9 handed tourney. Neil Kelly comes along and tells him he going up on to the stage. This guy wasnt next in the big blind or anytin. We were obv raging at our table and I confronted neil. I asked him what the process for moving ppl up. Gave me the alrite bud, wil try get you up there aswel(i assume he didnt no who i was if he taught i gav a sh1te about playing poker on a stage, like i av been on a wsop ft, so getting on tg4 wasnt going make my day, espn does do even if its only a liv stream, IT STILL COUNTS). I asked what the procedure for moving ppl as he did with someone off our table who wasnt going to be bb next and were now 7 handed. His reply was he didnt have a procedure and he'd get us 2 players??? Ah yeh pick a player here pick a player there.
It appeared to me he was feeding the sharks with fish.
Also not as relavent, in Kilarney ppl were seated in 4 groups according to there surname. PPl went on about it being a top class event which to be fair it was but infairness all its take is a simple program that take 2 mins to do random seat draws.
2 years ago at the irish open pp did the same thing with featured tables and we were all on there backs about it.
Its makes the tournament open to manipulation if its not a random seat draw with the most exciting line up being choosin for the feature table.
Mayb Neil Kelly wasnt bring this fishy to the shark tank, but it certainly looked like it to all at our table.

gondorff

Inserts babel fish in ear...

Ah yes that's much better.

I totally agree. Seating should be totally random. If they need a 'feature table', then they should pick the choicest table (after random seating has taken place), and move these players to it.

strewelpeter

The situation has become so badly handled by tournament organisers that it makes a joke of any claim they have to fair and transparent competition.
It would not be all that difficult or expensive to use an electronic solution that guaranteed randomness.

ozpoker

The biggest error being made in this thread is to assume the interests of the players and promoters are congruent.

zuroph

have to agree about feature tables, its always been teh one area thats confused me since starting attending live tourneys. pick the best table from the random draw and be done with it, no handpicking players should be allowed.

Brayruit

I was at IPC - the rules said that there would be seeding of players for the first few levels onto tables 1-3. In practice this meant that name players were at the 3 feature tables for the first day (the TV table was chosen as 1 of these 3). It also apparently resulted in a severe lack of action in the second and third sessions.

For day 2 there was a random draw and they then picked what they thought would be more entertaining tables to number as 1, 2 and 3.

I was on table 2 on Saturday. The table was probably chosen as a feature table as it had Rob Taylor, Rory Liffey, John Magill and another Rory with a big stack whose surname I didn't know. When players were eliminated they were replaced but I am pretty sure that the replacement was not random. The first one to come in (after Rob was eliminated) was David Poole who had been the overnight chip leader (and who had been left out of the feature table by accident as his chips had been noted as 7,500 instead of 75k).

Later on John 'Skalie' Kalmar and Paul Leckey were also added to the table just before we were moved on to TV. I had a definite feeling that I was a fish being prepared to be fed to those sharks as TV entertainment

Having said all that I have to add that I don't object to this practice as it makes the tournament 'bigger' to have it televised which improves the enjoyment for an idiot amateur like me. In fact keeping some of the better pros together on the feature tables makes the amateurs' task a bit easier on day one.

One of the organisers told me that the pros don't object to the arrangement despite the fact that they get pitted against each other early on. the reason is that the TV exposure is more important to them than progress in the tourney. Someone commented that Devilfish was delighted to go out on the TV table in a big early hand rather than quietly exiting on another table. (Of course it also allowed him to go off and win 33k in the support event).

Finally (and a bit btw) I liked a bit of speech play from Skalie. We were told we were about to be moved to the TV table after one more hand. I was dealt A9o and raised in the cutoff to about 3bb. The button called and Skalie in the SB put in a good raise to about 10bb. BB folded. Calling would have put a good proportion of my chips in the middle and I had decided fairly quickly to fold when Skalie said to me "Careful now, you don't want to risk missing out on the TV table!". This made me pause and think... I told him that I didn't give a crap whether I made the TV or not (which was true at the time, but I know now that I would have missed out on a fun experience)... but then folded any way. Button folded too and Skalie turned over AA. I just thought that the speechplay was clever as it did move me closer to calling - sure maybe I would have sucked out

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

It is very clear that its not about the players any more imo its about TV and getting the well known players on it to market their tourney/brand.

kippy

Not a poker player per se, but in fairness its like many other "sports" or televised events.
Take for example the FA Cup final last year, despite all the "romance" of two non big four teams in it the viewing numbers were way down on it.
It is in the organisers interested to place the more well know players on TV.
I really dont think I would bother tuning into a game of poker between 10 guys I've never heard of.....

Ste05

kippy wrote: »

Not a poker player per se, but in fairness its like many other "sports" or televised events.
Take for example the FA Cup final last year, despite all the "romance" of two non big four teams in it the viewing numbers were way down on it.
It is in the organisers interested to place the more well know players on TV.
I really dont think I would bother tuning into a game of poker between 10 guys I've never heard of.....

If you take the FA cup example, the equivalent of that here would be to rig the draw for television e.g. keeping Man Utd/ LFC/ Chelsea seperate to hopefully ensure they get to the Final, so early rounds have the David and Goliath matches, etc. then as it gets deeper trying to cherry pick nice matches always keeping an eye on who plays the 1/4's, Semi's and hopefully ensure a big spectacle for the Final... surely you don't think that would be good for the game. Although at least it might have avoided a Cardiff V Portsmouth Final, which would have been good... :rolleyes:

Instead what they do (and Poker tournament organisers should too) is have the draw as it should be done, and then pick which matches would make the best television.

The way these tournaments are done is a complete shambles, and makes us look like complete idiots. This doesn't happen in the WSOP or (AFAIK) the EPT or (hopefully) the WPT either, it's just a complete and utter joke IMO. (

RoundTower

Ste05 wrote: »

The way these tournaments are done is a complete shambles, and makes us look like complete idiots. This doesn't happen in the WSOP or (AFAIK) the EPT or (hopefully) the WPT either, it's just a complete and utter joke IMO. (

actually it did happen in at least one EPT. Ask Dave O'Callaghan.

It's hardly a surprise that Pokerevents would do a thing like this, but tbh I thought Neil Kelly had more professionalism. Just another organiser to avoid.

smurph

RoundTower wrote: »

actually it did happen in at least one EPT. Ask Dave O'Callaghan.

It's hardly a surprise that Pokerevents would do a thing like this, but tbh I thought Neil Kelly had more professionalism. Just another organiser to avoid.

Lol
if you going to be snide at least get the Tournament Director right....
Neil Kelly wasn't involved in this.. please ignore im a gobsh*t

It looked like it was more Party Poker etc., wanting to get "known" professional players up on the feature table.

It happened last year aswell..


Woops sorry about that... It thought we were just talking about Galway. Apoligies Dave......
backs away slowly and out the door

The C Kid

smurph wrote: »

Lol
if you going to be snide at least get the Tournament Director right....
Neil Kelly wasn't involved in this..

Reading OP is always advisable before posting.

smurph

The C Kid wrote: »

Reading OP is always advisable before posting.

Sorry,
Hangs head in shame. post fixed.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

BigCityBanker

in my time working with PPP there was no interference with the random seat draw in order to get a star studded feature table, it will remain that way for as long as i remain there.

This year we ran the draw and picked whatever table Doyle Brunson was at to be the 1st feature table, we were lucky that it included players like Chub and Meijberg. Similarly, when somebody got knocked out on the feature table we broke tables from highest to lowest so if you were next on the bb at the highest table you found your way to the feature table on that basis.

bohsman

I cant answer for Big Slick but I was given no directives to move big names to the stage nor was it rigged at the start from what I could see. TG4 werent filming the feature tables.

sickpuppy

Its aload of shyte as Dagunman said.
I went to pick my seat and it was picked for me any game ive played you pick it yourslef i thought? i havent played any epts or wsop games but letting them pick it seems so obvious its possible to be rigged.
One look at teh feature table u had Mike SExton Devilsfish The big C AND AFEW IRISH CHaracters? and a token babe or two it kept a lot of good players out of the field but you want the chance to play with these guys had Kenna JAMES at my table for latter part of day two he was good fun but table should be opena draw and best table for tv can then be the TV table.

5starpool

Rigging the TV table in an event with a few big names is a pile of rubbish, but I can see why they do it though. It was done at the IO in 2007 as well, but as Noel clarifies above, it was not done last year there, and proper order too imo.

Playing on a TV table is far more trouble than it is worth as you play on a shorterhanded table usually, but still get in fewer hands per hour typically due to pauses for technical issues and new players joining. At the TV table in the IO last year, we were left there even after filming stopped for the day, but we were only 6 handed for about 20 minutes despite loads of complaints about it and we threatened to go on strike practically about it. I remember Padraig P taking a couple of minutes once refusing to look at his cards while telling a typically funny story and eventually we got more players.

I know it is biting the hand that feeds but TV tables are just hassle, despite the cheap thrills of appearing on them at the time. Why can we not get the type of tv tables that they have in the WSOP, EPT etc in use in this country with the cams embedded into the side of the table? Far better options. I presume it is a copyright or some other issue like this, but the ones with the glass cameras are horrible to play on.

max_power

5starpool wrote: »

I know it is biting the hand that feeds but TV tables are just hassle, despite the cheap thrills of appearing on them at the time. Why can we not get the type of tv tables that they have in the WSOP, EPT etc in use in this country with the cams embedded into the side of the table? Far better options. I presume it is a copyright or some other issue like this, but the ones with the glass cameras are horrible to play on.

I'd imagine they're just more expensive and difficult to set up and people (organisers) don't really care.

Enzo Scifo

dagunman wrote: »

Wasnt at the event, but was watching the updates Also it makes it v hard 4 gud players to get chips early on when it should be most easiet, this results in donkey like reesy winning it. .

Your right about the draw but imagine having to get through that field and have to put up with being called a donkey by someone who was not even there.

SIDESHOW BOBs

people were asked if they wanted to be on the feature table.

i agreed for the experience, which i enjoyed but will never agree again to start off on tv table.

downsides playin 8 handed , v little soft chips , the table i was on for 6 hours only lost 2 players , a randomer early doors and julian gardner , we were then playing 7 handed for an hour .

there needs to be some liason with the T.D/ Tv PPl/ players .

strewelpeter

BigCityBanker wrote: »

in my time working with PPP there was no interference with the random seat draw in order to get a star studded feature table, it will remain that way for as long as i remain there.

This year we ran the draw and picked whatever table Doyle Brunson was at to be the 1st feature table, we were lucky that it included players like Chub and Meijberg. Similarly, when somebody got knocked out on the feature table we broke tables from highest to lowest so if you were next on the bb at the highest table you found your way to the feature table on that basis.

Very good.

Brayruit wrote:

TV exposure is more important to them [The likes of Devilfish] than progress in the tourney

This is probably a bigger reason that it continues to happen than the wrongheaded idea among tournament directors and the inept TV producers that the same old moronic media hoors acting like idiots trying anything they can think of (not a lot, in most cases) to keep their faces on TV for another twenty seconds.

It's strange that TV coverage of poker was so well done in Late Night Poker and now it's almost all such drivel

Fatboydim

strewelpeter wrote: »

It's strange that TV coverage of poker was so well done in Late Night Poker and now it's almost all such drivel

Because there were no stars back then. Part and parcel of poker being popular.
I'll raise these issues with some of the people concerned. Karl H would be a good person to ask how it was done. However what I would say is that it's probably not down to Pokerevents - But more down to the Broadcaster [RTE] Production Company [Winmedia- I think] and Sponsors [Party Poker]

If I get any answers I'll post them up.

JP Poker

5starpool wrote: »

Rigging the TV table in an event with a few big names is a pile of rubbish, but I can see why they do it though. It was done at the IO in 2007 as well, but as Noel clarifies above, it was not done last year there, and proper order too imo.

Playing on a TV table is far more trouble than it is worth as you play on a shorterhanded table usually, but still get in fewer hands per hour typically due to pauses for technical issues and new players joining. At the TV table in the IO last year, we were left there even after filming stopped for the day, but we were only 6 handed for about 20 minutes despite loads of complaints about it and we threatened to go on strike practically about it. I remember Padraig P taking a couple of minutes once refusing to look at his cards while telling a typically funny story and eventually we got more players.

I know it is biting the hand that feeds but TV tables are just hassle, despite the cheap thrills of appearing on them at the time. Why can we not get the type of tv tables that they have in the WSOP, EPT etc in use in this country with the cams embedded into the side of the table? Far better options. I presume it is a copyright or some other issue like this, but the ones with the glass cameras are horrible to play on.

You'll be happy to know Dom that I bought one of these tables last year and it will be in use at my Masters this year, might be in use at the GJP festival.

Its the same table that was used in the WSOP up to 2007 and is use by full tilt in "Poker after Dark"

At 10 by 4 foot and 10 cam holes it defo won't be a short handed table.

I haven't decided what why way I will bring new players to the feature table. Probably just the standard way. With the orginal table 1 as the TV Table.

JP Poker

max_power wrote: »

I'd imagine they're just more expensive and difficult to set up and people (organisers) don't really care.

Yes very expensive... Over €20k

zuroph

slightly off topic, whatever happened to the guy who was building a tv table for home games, with ten webcams mounted in the side like the tables mentioned above?

Ste05

JP Poker wrote: »

I haven't decided what why way I will bring new players to the feature table. Probably just the standard way. With the orginal table 1 as the TV Table.

I don't see why you'd have to make Table 1 the TV table, why don't you just do the draw, look at the various tables, pick the most interesting looking one and make that the TV table. Then as the day progresses switch the TV table when another table looks more interesting or has better action/ characters etc. or for whatever reason you like, but once the table draw is legit and the adding and breaking of tables is usual, surely there's nothing wrong with just switching the whole of the TV table (which say may happen to be Table 21) with Table 15 because it looks like a more entertaining table??

Do it at a break or whenever, but surely the changeover would only take 5 minutes or so (although I've no idea how long it takes to mike and de-mike the players so maybe it takes longer??)

Is this not how it's done at the WSOP etc.???

Culchie

zuroph wrote: »

slightly off topic, whatever happened to the guy who was building a tv table for home games, with ten webcams mounted in the side like the tables mentioned above?

He got sense, stopped playing poker, and goes to the gym 5 days a week:pac:

He has the table made, but no webcams .... darn recession

JP Poker

Ste05 wrote: »

I don't see why you'd have to make Table 1 the TV table, why don't you just do the draw, look at the various tables, pick the most interesting looking one and make that the TV table. Then as the day progresses switch the TV table when another table looks more interesting or has better action/ characters etc. or for whatever reason you like, but once the table draw is legit and the adding and breaking of tables is usual, surely there's nothing wrong with just switching the whole of the TV table (which say may happen to be Table 21) with Table 15 because it looks like a more entertaining table??

Do it at a break or whenever, but surely the changeover would only take 5 minutes or so (although I've no idea how long it takes to mike and de-mike the players so maybe it takes longer??)

Is this not how it's done at the WSOP etc.???

Not sure how its done at the WSOP but this makes sense.

Probably changing the table either every 2 or 4 hours.

zuroph

Culchie wrote: »

He got sense, stopped playing poker, and goes to the gym 5 days a week:pac:

He has the table made, but no webcams .... darn recession

but the webcams would be the cheapest part! tell him i bid €50 for it!

cooker3

Fatboydim wrote: »

Because there were no stars back then. Part and parcel of poker being popular.
I'll raise these issues with some of the people concerned. Karl H would be a good person to ask how it was done. However what I would say is that it's probably not down to Pokerevents - But more down to the Broadcaster [RTE] Production Company [Winmedia- I think] and Sponsors [Party Poker]

If I get any answers I'll post them up.

I am pretty certain a lot of it is Pokerevents. 2 years ago at the IPC, there was no sponsor and no tv coverage. They still had a feature table which was blatantly rigged with top players such as Ram, Barney boatman, Padraig and around 4 others well known players(can't remember their names off hand). I think flushdraw may have been on it.

So they have history of doing this.