What type of weapons are these

Tenger

Manic Moran wrote: »

In fairness, it's the Israeli's job to look after Israelis first, and then look to other people. .............. but ultimately if it comes down to 'our guys or their guys,' the decision is simple. No mililtary is going to take a different point of view..

Sad but true.

iceage

I notice from news reports since last night that Israel is finally being taken to task about use of WP.

concussion

iceage wrote: »

I notice from news reports since last night that Israel is finally being taken to task about use of WP.

How so, what's been said?

iceage

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911114222894141.html


I thought I'd throw up a couple of links so as not to show a leaning to any particular news outlet.
Actually old news now.

concussion

Cheers, thanks for that. It seems the media have finally realised that there isn't a blanket ban on WP. Well, I haven't watched the AJ video yet, the better half is watching her stories.

iceage

LOL let me guess..Corrie or East enders?

Local-womanizer

iceage wrote: »

LOL let me guess..Corrie or East enders?

Edge of the seat stuff tonight mind you!It all work out in the end though.:)

View Profile

Fratton Fred
As i said earlier, i fully support Israel's right to defend itself, i will even support Israel in as much as Hamas started this and gets what it deserves, but what hope is there for the future when children are being killed like this?

Tuesday, December 30, 2008
"Israel broke ceasefire by killing six" (Irish Times)

"CNN confirms that Israel broke ceasefire first"

"Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen"
Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem (The Guardian)

iceage

I'll take your word on that, I used to think having a HD recorder of some type would be the best thing ever, I could record all the groovey stuff, and watch at my leisure.....fecking thing is full of come dancing and every soap known to man!

Only thing I managed to get on it was the 6 programmes of Mr Ryan and his Elite cops for a mate of mine whose unable to get it.


Rant over, sorry to go off topic.

concussion

View Profile wrote: »

Tuesday, December 30, 2008
"Israel broke ceasefire by killing six" (Irish Times)

"CNN confirms that Israel broke ceasefire first"

"Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen"
Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem (The Guardian)

The raid was in response to Hamas digging a tunnel at the border. It hasn't been confirmed or denied by Hamas, but if it's true, I would view that as a hostile act warranting a response (can't say it broke the ceasefire conditions as it was only a verbal agreement :eek:)

Local-womanizer

concussion wrote: »

The raid was in response to Hamas digging a tunnel at the border. It hasn't been confirmed or denied by Hamas, but if it's true, I would view that as a hostile act warranting a response (can't say it broke the ceasefire conditions as it was only a verbal agreement :eek:)

And Hamas have alot of tunnels used for smuggling weapons according to the bbc website.I'll try and find the link as it is a few months old.

concussion

Local-womanizer wrote: »

And Hamas have alot of tunnels used for smuggling weapons according to the bbc website.I'll try and find the link as it is a few months old.

If you're referring to those along the Egyptian border, no need, they definately do. However, digging a tunnel under a border checkpoint is not something someone interested in smuggling would do :eek:

From what I've gathered, Israel sent troops into Gaza and killed 6 Hamas militants who were digging a tunnel. No independant confirmation, but Hamas have not denied they were digging a tunnel.
So nothing concrete on who did what, and who did it first. They way I see it, neither side was upset that it was broken

marco murphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

maybe. perhaps I have an overly romantic view of how the military works, but seeing pictures on the BBC last night of a man who was crying over his dead son's body made me sick to my stomach.

As i said earlier, i fully support Israel's right to defend itself, i will even support Israel in as much as Hamas started this and gets what it deserves, but what hope is there for the future when children are being killed like this?

Hamas started it?

From 19 June 2008 until 4 November 2008 – during the Egyptian brokered ceasefire – Hamas didn’t fire any rockets or mortar shells from Gaza into Israel and restrained other Palestinian groups from doing so.

This was despite the fact that Israel failed to honour its obligations under the ceasefire agreement to lift its savage economic blockade, which had brought the people of Gaza to the verge of starvation.

From 19 June 2008 until 4 November 2008, only 20 rockets and 17 mortar shells were fired from Gaza into Israel (all by Palestinian groups other than Hamas), compared to 1,199 rockets and 1,072 mortar shells in 2008 up to 19 June.

On 4 November – as the attention of the world was on the election of Barack Obama in the US – Israel launched an armed assault on Gaza killing six people and torpedoing the ceasefire altogether.

The inevitable retaliation in the form of the resumption of Hamas firing its homemade rockets into Israel provided the casus belli “justifying” Israel’s long-planned and savage onslaught on Gaza launched on 27 December, which so far has killed over 800 people, wounded 3,500 and left 15,000 displaced.

The raid was in response to Hamas digging a tunnel at the border. It hasn't been confirmed or denied by Hamas, but if it's true, I would view that as a hostile act warranting a response (can't say it broke the ceasefire conditions as it was only a verbal agreement )

Surely the fact that tunnels exist would point you in the direction of the blockcade, imposed by Israel, which was supposed to be lifted under ceasefire terms...

Local-womanizer

concussion wrote: »

If you're referring to those along the Egyptian border, no need, they definately do. However, digging a tunnel under a border checkpoint is not something someone interested in smuggling would do :eek:

From what I've gathered, Israel sent troops into Gaza and killed 6 Hamas militants who were digging a tunnel. No independant confirmation, but Hamas have not denied they were digging a tunnel.
So nothing concrete on who did what, and who did it first. They way I see it, neither side was upset that it was broken

Yup,your right.I got confused because Israel where critising Egypt for the lack of action against the tunnels.They even have their own Zoo for the animals being brought through!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7673893.stm

Tenger

concussion wrote: »

From what I've gathered, Israel sent troops into Gaza and killed 6 Hamas militants who were digging a tunnel....................So nothing concrete on who did what, and who did it first. They way I see it, neither side was upset that it was broken

Israel did say that they would respond to any hostile acts during their 3 hour daily halt. By ceasefire they meant halt to offensive ops.

Good to see the use of WP has been reportes int he media. Can't see the IDF listening to any criticism though.

A point which I am unsure of. Their are checkpoints on the southern side of Gaza,think one is Rafah. Egypt is getting flak over not re-opening it. Hence the use of tunnels under the border. However the Egyptians were told not to open it by the US who were passing on instructions from the Israelis. Have I got that right?
The new spirit of detente between the US and the Arab states appears to have left the Palestinians as a bit of a abandoned child. The Arab states want US aid and support,thus they cannot go against the wishes of the main US ally in the region.

Fratton Fred

Perestroika wrote: »

From 19 June 2008 until 4 November 2008, only 20 rockets and 17 mortar shells were fired from Gaza into Israel (all by Palestinian groups other than Hamas), compared to 1,199 rockets and 1,072 mortar shells in 2008 up to 19 June.

what other groups? I though Hamas had killed oof all the others and taken complete control of Gaza?

unreasonable of the Israelis really i suppose, only 20 rockets and 17 mortar shells fired at civilian areas, what are they getting so upset about:rolleyes:

do you mind if i fire 20 rockets and 17 mortars at you and your family over a few months, i mean, its nothing really is it.

Hagar

Never put a rat in a corner, never put a man in a cage.

marco murphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what other groups? I though Hamas had killed oof all the others and taken complete control of Gaza?

They were democratically elected. I don't know enough about their charter, but they are endorsed by a huge number of Palestinian people. There needs to be dialogue. Israel and whoever can wrap themselves up in a coat of principles, just like Maggie Thatcher did and so on. There needs to be dialogue, or this will continue on and off.
As for the other groups, take the word of the Israelis themselves? I'm not saying you should, but if they blame Hamas that contradicts their earlier analysis, have a look at this.
This information on the ceasefire comes from the “Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center” at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center, an organisation which is regularly quoted by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. A report dated 5 November 2008, entitled Escalation in the Gaza Strip (on the Center’s website at
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...ml/ct_e011.htm states:

"Since the lull arrangement went into effect on June 19, 2008, the Palestinian terrorist organizations have violated it scores of times, primarily by firing rockets and mortar shells. Occasionally rogue terrorist organizations have been responsible for the violations, among them networks belonging to Fatah, the PIJ [Palestinian Islamic Jihad] and the Army of Islam. Hamas, for its part, did not take part in rocket and mortar shell fire and sometimes prevented other organizations from attacking, although it did not confront them directly and massively or end their continued violation." (emphasis added)

Straight from the horses mouth.

unreasonable of the Israelis really i suppose, only 20 rockets and 17 mortar shells fired at civilian areas, what are they getting so upset about:rolleyes:

All of it is wrong, all of it is. But people need to stop being date-selective and look at it on broader terms.

do you mind if i fire 20 rockets and 17 mortars at you and your family over a few months, i mean, its nothing really is it.

?? Of course not.
But its not about rockets, anyone who thinks that needs to look at the whole conflict. Yes, you will be told via news channels that that is the reason Israel went in, again.

Fishtits

Never put a rat in a corner, never put a man in a cage...

Works both ways...

Israel has sacrificed recent gains at the alter of politcs IMHO

Soloman surely weeps in his grave.

Hagar

The document below seems to be a very clear proof that Isreal was artificially created, by foreign powers, within the state of Palestine at the expense of the Palestinian people. It seems that the bit about protecting civil and religious rights of the native Palestinians seems to have gone by the board. So explain to me, what right do the Zionists have to the lands they occupy other than "God said we could have it, because we are his chosen people". ?

concussion

The League of Nations and later the UN supported a Jewish state. Presumably the Holocaust and the guilt of the international community allowed Israel to do what it wanted after that. Now they're there for a few generations and, to them, it's rightfully theirs.

Hagar

That document is dated 1917 well before either the League of Nations or the UN.

The fact that they are in possession for 60 years doesn't wash. Aren't the Jews seeking to have gold, jewels, works of art taken from them in WWII returned to them? Why not apply the same logic and say the people who currently have possession are the true owners. You can't have your bagel and eat it.

Zuiderzee

I think one needs to be v. carefull in the use of Jew/Israeli here.
Israel exists de facto
Palestine exists de jure

This topic should be moved to politics of war

concussion

Hagar wrote: »

That document is dated 1917 well before either the League of Nations or the UN.

The fact that they are in possession for 60 years doesn't wash. Aren't the Jews seeking to have gold, jewels, works of art taken from them in WWII returned to them? Why not apply the same logic and say the people who currently have possession are the true owners. You can't have your bagel and eat it.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, merely pointing out that both the League of Nations (by endorsing the Balfour Declaration in 1922) and the UN (proposing the Palestian Partition Plan in 1947) supported the formation of a Jewish State. I don't condone their actions, I'm just pointing out why they are there in the first place.

munchester29

Hagar wrote: »

The document below seems to be a very clear proof that Isreal was artificially created, by foreign powers, within the state of Palestine at the expense of the Palestinian people.

All the countries in the region were artificially created by foreign powers. Some of them even have minority rules (Saudi Arabia).

In addition, both Arabs and Jews recieved their own country (artifically created) by UN declaration. The Palestinians never had a Palestinian nationality prior to the 20th century and there was always a Jewish population in Israel, so the creation of Israel was not at the expense of the Palestinians.

Besides, the Gaza & west bank areas were captured by Israel in 1967. Until then they were occupied by Egypt and Jordan.

BlaasForRafa

Hagar wrote: »

That document is dated 1917 well before either the League of Nations or the UN.

The fact that they are in possession for 60 years doesn't wash. Aren't the Jews seeking to have gold, jewels, works of art taken from them in WWII returned to them? Why not apply the same logic and say the people who currently have possession are the true owners. You can't have your bagel and eat it.

Ok, lets give Danzig back to the Germans and Lwow back to the Polish by that logic.

Israel is there and isn't going to disappear no matter how much certain people(s) may wish it.

marco murphy

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Ok, lets give Danzig back to the Germans and Lwow back to the Polish by that logic.

Israel is there and isn't going to disappear no matter how much certain people(s) may wish it.

And just who wants it to dissappear? :rolleyes:

Hagar

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Ok, lets give Danzig back to the Germans and Lwow back to the Polish by that logic.

Israel is there and isn't going to disappear no matter how much certain people(s) may wish it.

Ireland of all nations should be able to see that there is never going to be peace in an artificially divided land with a displaced population. Maybe in about 800 years or so...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote: »

Maybe in about 800 years or so...

The remaining Palestinians will vote away their claim to Israel

.

BlaasForRafa

Perestroika wrote: »

And just who wants it to dissappear? :rolleyes:

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Al Qaeda....