A&E Madness

gazzer

An elderly relative of mine was taken into the Mater A&E in Dublin this morning and I went down to see how she was. The place was like something you would see in the aftermath of a natural disaster. People on chairs since New Years Eve waiting for a bed. Elderly people on chairs and trolleys put into every nook and cranny in the hospital. My relative was up against a wall (luckily she had a trolley to lie on) where it was absolutely freezing. She couldnt get any sleep as there was too much noise and people hitting off her trolley as they passed.

Out in the waiting area there was a woman who was in a wheelchair who was trying to get to the disabled toilet. There was no room for her to manouvere her wheelchair as there was so many people waiting and she ended up falling out of her chair.

What really pissed me off was the amount of junkies there who were screaming and shouting at each other and the doctors/nurses. There was only one security guard in the area and he was not able to deal with the amount of them who were causing so much trouble

I left the hospital feeling so angry at the powers that be in the health department who have squandered so much money and have left A&E depts in a worse state then they were a few years ago. It is unbeliveable to me that people who have worked all their life have to endure such conditions when they go for help.

Thankfully my relative was finally seen this evening and was let home. I feel so sorry for people that are on their 3rd night waiting for a bed

Hammiepeters

Sorry to hear about that. It must be horrible for people. You can put it down to unions, pretty much. That is THE problem here.

jimmycrackcorm

Even if the size of A&E's were doubled they would still fill up.

galwayrush

Mary Hearney will have it sorted in no time.:rolleyes:

ntlbell

I love these threads.

let me tell you something i just found out and now it's happened to me im concerened

lets not mention the fact this has been an on going problem since like _ever_

although been lucky enough myself to been looked after a number of times last year in the mater pretty quickly

the_syco

To be fair, them trolleys are not bad. Fairly comfy, I may add. Was on one of them for two nights less than a month ago, in Blanch. As the hospital is in the city, expansion is a bit of a problem, and thus people can only be put in a rrom, if there's a room there. Also, people are put in rooms if they're really bad, or need an operation.

gazzer

Eh ntlbell.. I havnt just discovered the A and E problem. I have posted on various forums in the past about the A and E problem. I also wrote to the minister for health and local TD's a number of times. I am well aware that there is serious problems in A and E. I have been in them a number of times over the years. Today happened to be the worst I had ever seen it.

• How many of these people need to be there. How many probably could get seen by a doctor?
• How many are sent to the hospital purely to cover the GPs arse?
• How many old people are abandoned in wards overnight by weary relatives.
• How many drunks are there?

Ive a few people in the family who work in hospitals these are the things that keep coming up in conversation. It seems to be organisational and procedural problems not necessarily lack of resources.

There is triage happening in the hospital its likely the people on trollies represent the less serious maladies. You will be surprised the minor ailments people will be willing to put themselves in hospitals overnight for.

Peyton Manning

ntlbell wrote: »

I love these threads.

let me tell you something i just found out and now it's happened to me im concerened

lets not mention the fact this has been an on going problem since like _ever_

although been lucky enough myself to been looked after a number of times last year in the mater pretty quickly

You were much more pleasant when you kept your sh!t stirring trolling to the soccer forum.

ntlbell

Archimedes wrote: »

You were much more pleasant when you kept your sh!t stirring trolling to the soccer forum.

What's trollish about it?

unless you been living under a large rock everyone knows how bad A&E is.

it's like starting a thread on traffic been heavy on the M50....

we know...

Peyton Manning

ntlbell wrote: »

What's trollish about it?

unless you been living under a large rock everyone knows how bad A&E is.

it's like starting a thread on traffic been heavy on the M50....

we know...

The OP wants to discuss it. For the same reasons you want to discuss Manchester United everyday. Deal with it.

gazzer

ntlbell wrote: »

What's trollish about it?

unless you been living under a large rock everyone knows how bad A&E is.

it's like starting a thread on traffic been heavy on the M50....

we know...

Ah well thats ok then.. everybody knows so why bother writing about it :rolleyes:

Karoma

Get back on-topic. If the OP wants to discuss it/rant, it's open to discussion/ranting.

ntlbell

gazzer wrote: »

Ah well thats ok then.. everybody knows so why bother writing about it :rolleyes:

well if you want to do something about it why not start a thread on your ideas on what we should do about it and look for people to help which would of started the right conversation.

you just started a thread with a useless whine....

galwayrush

Karoma wrote: »

Get back on-topic.

In AH mode of course.;)

sickpuppy32

you can also put it down to those people who attend their A&E for spurious reasons, usually they have medical cards so they dont pay for the Aand E serivice and thus treat the place like crap. I believe A&E should be free for all but those that attend for spurious reasons should be made pay full whack medical card or not

Darragh29

OP, have a read of my identical experience some time ago in A & E in St. James... I could post here but I went into some detail on this previously in the thread below, EXACT same experience as you had...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055397394

oztots

Few people i know working in the hospitals and gp's say alot of the elderly come in for a chat because they've nothing better to do.

Of course they have appointments and take up time and money. But what can be done? Charge people for coming in for a cut knee. Have a stitches or above requirement?

Fed_Up

This happened me a few weekends ago (i.e. I had to accompany a relative to James' A&E and was shocked at the conditions there). It boggles belief that they haven't introduced some kind of double charge or separate area or something if you show up locked. I think it's only fair. And the other thing I can't get my head around is this:

If there're say, 20 extra patients waiting on trollies in the A&E department at any given time, surely that's shockingly unsafe in terms of staffing, etc. A&E is like any given ward in the hospital, with a certain quota of nurses to care for x amount of patients. Thus, on this hypothetical night that team of nurses are caring for twenty extra patients. But there are 20 odd wards in any of the major teaching hospitals. So why not have each patient waiting in A&E, each of the 20, assigned one at a time so that each ward takes one extra patient waiting in the halls instead of one ward taking twenty of them? This is such a basic solution, I'm sure there must be some reason why it hasn't been implemented.

To be quite frank, it's just a matter of time before someone sues a hospital for inept management because their relative lingered in a hideously understaffed A&E for three days.

Zaph

the_syco wrote: »

To be fair, them trolleys are not bad. Fairly comfy, I may add. Was on one of them for two nights less than a month ago, in Blanch.

They must have more comfortable trolleys there than in Vincents then. Spent 26 hours on one there a couple of years ago. The first couple of hours were ok, but as I'd wrecked my legs and they were in splints I couldn't move and had to lie on my back the whole time. It pretty quickly became an endurance test.

Dyr

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

you can also put it down to those people who attend their A&E for spurious reasons, usually they have medical cards so they dont pay for the Aand E serivice and thus treat the place like crap. I believe A&E should be free for all but those that attend for spurious reasons should be made pay full whack medical card or not

Nobody in their right mind would go near A&E unless they had to..it's a hell hole. presumably that's part of the overall strategy of the Minister for VHI

Last time i was in there the security were deffo on the ball, took no sh*t from junkie scumbags etc although it wasnt "busy" at the time, i.e not many people waiting but we were still there for six hours before being seen to :mad:

ro2

I was in Beaumont A&E last year with my Mum. We went to one of the dubdoc clinics first and the doctor called an ambulance as she was having chest pains. We arrived at about 9pm and the place was chaos, trolleys everywhere. It was mostly elderly people at that stage as the drunks hadn't arrived yet.

It took about 15 minutes before the doctors saw her even though she had been referred by another doctor. The ambulance guys have to wait with you until the A&E doctor sees you and signs you over to the hospital. I was chatting with them while we were waiting and they said another ambulance crew was stuck sitting in the Mater for three hours that night, before a doctor saw their patient.

oztots

I dont know about this whole "I was waiting six hours to be seen" thing.

Any time i've gone in its usually in agonising pain with spurts of blood or a part of my bone structure deciding to see if the grass is greener on the other side. They take a look and decide its either an "accident" or "emergency" and im taken care of.

I see alot of people in who have niggling pains or a few grazes just in to make sure that since the bleedings stopped is it alright?

Other big bother would be the waiting lists on doctor referrals. Somebody might have something debilitating that they need to see a specialist for. But the waiting list is 4 months, so they head into the A and E in the hope to get it sorted sooner.
If the system was better organised these people wouldn't even see the door of the A and E deptartment.

mikemac

oztots wrote: »

I see alot of people in who have niggling pains or a few grazes just in to make sure that since the bleedings stopped is it alright?

I've been in a few accidents alright (all self-inflicted on a bicycle or moped ) but I'd present myself to the GP in the morning rather then sit in A&E for hours. If it's not serious, I don't know why anyone would put themselves through it. I'm not doubting you oztots, but why would people go to a chaotic waiting room for a minor graze? Or even more serious but something that can wait?

Only been to A&E once, seen instantly in Nenagh hospital, I was the only patient there.
Result!
Alas, it's not like this everywhere and it certainly wasn't a weekend night full of drunks.

Capt'n Midnight

Bambi wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind would go near A&E unless they had to..it's a hell hole. presumably that's part of the overall strategy of the Minister for VHI

Still have a bump that probably needed a few stiches, but it was late on a weekend night and reckoned wouldn't get seen for ages so straight back home and lots of hot soapy water

oztots

mikemac wrote: »

but why would people go to a chaotic waiting room for a minor graze? Or even more serious but something that can wait?
.

I believe theres alot of hypochondriacs around that see blood and panic that they've ruptured something serious. Then again id be more from the "once you cant walk, then theres doctors" side of things.

Berty

oztots wrote: »

I believe theres alot of hypochondriacs around that see blood and panic that they've ruptured something serious. .

Hypochondriacs were declared as all having a physco neurotic condition a few years back. The whole world full of them all said "aha, we told you there WAS something wrong with us" :D

MJOR

:mad:Well i suppose anyone that gets sent there by their GP should be there really. I know it's a lot of ass covering but still and all better to be safe.

I was recently in the CUH Aand E and to be honest It was hell. There were definately people there that could have been treated by GP. However there were loads of geninue cases there too.I was actually heartbroken to see a guy there with a collapsed lung and no blanket or pillow. When i discharged myself i gave him mine they didn't have enough for everyone on trollys. There was also an eighty year old woman on a trolly that needed a bed. There is no excuse for this shambles of a health service.

tallaght01

Main problems in A+E:

1) Lack of beds on the wards. The trolley thing isn't really an A+E issue. These are most often patients waiting for a bed inside the hospital. You shouldn't be getting looked after in an emergency department for more then a couple of hours.

2) People can't cope with being ill. I did a 10 hour shift in A+E today. I saw maybe 3 actual emergencies.

3) There's just not enough staff.

For everyone talking about junkies clogging up A+E....I do see your point. But these people are ill, and need healthcare like everyone else.
To be honest, they're usually actually sicker when they turn up than most people are!

Sierra Oscar

The main problem at the moment is that the A & E wards are over-crowding with people arriving with flu like issues - and its going to get much worse.

gazzer

My relative had to be taken back in to hospital this morning as the pain she has had for the last 2 weeks was worse than ever. She is back in the same draughty spot as she was yesterday and the place is busier than it was yesterday. The security guard asked us to leave as he said that it wasnt visiting time. We said that we didnt want to leave an elderly relative on her own until she saw a doctor as we wanted at least one of us there to ask the doctor questions but he wasnt for budging. We are only allowed in between 2.30 - 4 and 6 - 8. I think this is very unfair on elderly people who are lying on chairs or trolleys who are scared and waiting to see a doctor.

@ tallaght01. I understand your point about the junkies been sick and yes they should be seen but it is the roaring and screaming they are at around vulernable people that pissed me off.

Vorsprung

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The main problem at the moment is that the A & E wards are over-crowding with people arriving with flu like issues - and its going to get much worse.

Bit of an odd statement - sick people being a problem?

One of the main problems is lack of long term care beds. The hospital I work in has about 60 patients awaiting longterm care, they often have to wait upto 8 months for a bed in somewhere more suitable.

Donald-Duck

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

Bit of an odd statement - sick people being a problem?

One of the main problems is lack of long term care beds. The hospital I work in has about 60 patients awaiting longterm care, they often have to wait upto 8 months for a bed in somewhere more suitable.

His point is old people going to the hospital because they have a cold. People are skipping the doctor and going to the hospital instead.

tallaght01

Donald-Duck wrote: »

His point is old people going to the hospital because they have a cold. People are skipping the doctor and going to the hospital instead.

While that is true to an extent, A+E units are still overcrowded in summer when there's not so many viruses kicking about.

And to be honest, most people who turn up to A+E inappropriately with a cold are young people.

Old people are generally tough. Young people go to hospital for anything.

gazzer wrote: »

@ tallaght01. I understand your point about the junkies been sick and yes they should be seen but it is the roaring and screaming they are at around vulernable people that pissed me off.

Lots of people shout and scream in hospitals...the mentally ill, the delirious, junkies. The thing they have in common, though, is that they all have an illness, and that's what hospitals are for. They're not nice places, but people who are ill should be cared for there.

df1985

what annoys me is the fact we've almost come to accept the fact that if we need to go to hospital, we know we're going to be waiting for hours.we should be up in arms over it, but we're so used to it now.

about 2 years ago i went to beaumont, a girl had stood on my foot in high heels and cracked a bone.the wait was 6 hours, left without getting seen to and went to the vhi clinic in dcu.costs more but was in and out in less than an hour.if i needed stitches or an xray i wouldnt go near A+E and go to that clinic instead.

gazzer

A neighbour of mine fell down the stairs in her house 3 months ago. She hit her head and her family where worried about her and wanted to call an ambulance but she wouldnt go because she she said she didnt want to be waiting in A and E for hours on end and that she would go to the doctors in the morning. She died in her sleep that night. Im not saying that she wouldnt have died if she went to A and E but I think it is terrible that some people refuse to go to A and E as they feel they will be lying on chairs/trolleys for hours on end without been seen.

My relative who is in A and E at the moment had refused to go to A and E over the last 2 weeks as she didnt want to be sitting around for hours on end before been seen. Instead we called the GP out to her on 3 occasions but unfortunately the back pain she has has gotten steadily worse so it got to the stage where she begged to be brought into A and E yesterday.

Are there many private A and E places in Dublin? Would they treat a huge variety of illnesses or would they just be for cuts, bruises etc?

CDfm

gazzer wrote: »

What really pissed me off was the amount of junkies there who were screaming and shouting at each other and the doctors/nurses. There was only one security guard in the area and he was not able to deal with the amount of them who were causing so much trouble

I left the hospital feeling so angry at the powers that be in the health department who have squandered so much money and have left A&E depts in a worse state then they were a few years ago. It is unbeliveable to me that people who have worked all their life have to endure such conditions when they go for help.

Throughout the boom years helth service staff went on strike and worked whatever way the wanted. They extoted huge pay packages.

Nurses doctors should be accountable.They are a disgrace and A & E which they run reflects this.

df1985

the ones i can think of are, james', the mater, beaumont, blanchardstown, tallaght, and vincents.they treat everything from people on the verge of dying to people who have fell over and broke a bone,nasty cuts etc.

df1985

df1985 wrote: »

what annoys me is the fact we've almost come to accept the fact that if we need to go to hospital, we know we're going to be waiting for hours.we should be up in arms over it, but we're so used to it now.

about 2 years ago i went to beaumont, a girl had stood on my foot in high heels and cracked a bone.the wait was 6 hours, left without getting seen to and went to the vhi clinic in dcu.costs more but was in and out in less than an hour.if i needed stitches or an xray i wouldnt go near A+E and go to that clinic instead.

+1 that clinic up there is great. I've been once or twice since it's opened. That said I broke my nose and didn't have any cash on me at the time. And was definitely not arsed going to A&E on a saturday evening. So I have a slightly crooked nose now..:pac:

tallaght01

CDfm wrote: »

Throughout the boom years helth service staff went on strike and worked whatever way the wanted. They extoted huge pay packages.

Nurses doctors should be accountable.They are a disgrace and A & E which they run reflects this.

Yea, I remember those, er, A+E strikes like they were only yesterday!

:eek::eek:

Firetrap

gazzer wrote: »

A neighbour of mine fell down the stairs in her house 3 months ago. She hit her head and her family where worried about her and wanted to call an ambulance but she wouldnt go because she she said she didnt want to be waiting in A and E for hours on end and that she would go to the doctors in the morning. She died in her sleep that night. Im not saying that she wouldnt have died if she went to A and E but I think it is terrible that some people refuse to go to A and E as they feel they will be lying on chairs/trolleys for hours on end without been seen.

We had a dilemma like that in our family in the past few months. We decided not to bring the person in question into A&E because there was a distinct likelihood that they would be left there for hours. Not a good situation at all because the person in question is extremely vulnerable and helpless.

mehfesto2

I reckon the problem is lack of good Care of The Elderly settings.
I worked in Blanch and the Mater as a Care Attendant and I know that at one stage in Blanch at least 40% of the beds were being 'taken up' by old folks who didn't need to be in their specialised ward. i.e. We had patients on the respiratory ward with a pressure sore as their sole complaint. He had turned down moving to a Old Folks home because he "didn't like the look of it". :rolleyes:

• We need more beds for Care of The Elderly
• We need to shift patients to suit their needs, not what they want. Old Folk patients should be moved to the first available Home etc and from there[i/] they should decide if they want to stay there or go elsewhere. - If you clear the beds in the wards quicker, there's no backlog in A&E!
  

tallaght01

mehfesto2 wrote: »

I reckon the problem is lack of good Care of The Elderly settings.

That's PART of the problem.

It's multifactorial, but it's a big enough part.

btw, somewhat OT, but just had a look at the flickr photography page in your sig. Great pic of howth harbour!!

mehfesto2

tallaght01 wrote: »

That's PART of the problem.

It's multifactorial, but it's a big enough part.

btw, somewhat OT, but just had a look at the flickr photography page in your sig. Great pic of howth harbour!!

Yeah, fair point. But it was he point so many of the doctors and nurses were complaining about. (And cheers for the nice comment! It's a lovely place is howth!)

Vorsprung

CDfm wrote: »

Throughout the boom years helth service staff went on strike and worked whatever way the wanted. They extoted huge pay packages.

Nurses doctors should be accountable.They are a disgrace and A & E which they run reflects this.

Link please!

mehfesto2

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

Link please!

+1. Blatant trolling.

Nurse who work three and a quarter 12 hour shifts a week -AT LEAST- and seven nights back to back, aswell asyoung doctors working on-call (sometimes 36hours back to back) deserve good pay. Especially when they're working to keep people in good health. Neither are easy jobs - both have crap working conditions and I couldn't do either job and remain sane. Fair play to them - they deserve more if you ask me.

CDfm

tallaght01 wrote: »

Yea, I remember those, er, A+E strikes like they were only yesterday!

:eek::eek:

I have been to A & E after an accident and I felt the place was overrun with drunks and junkies known to the nurses and staff and I felt there should have been somewhere else for them. There problems were lifestyle and self inflicted.

I think Irish medical staff are well paid.

The nurses disputes were money grabbing and with the Health Services for all the money that gets spent on it -nobody knows where its going.

In my adult life I have seen no improvement.

tallaght01

CDfm wrote: »

I have been to A & E after an accident and I felt the place was overrun with drunks and junkies known to the nurses and staff and I felt there should have been somewhere else for them. There problems were lifestyle and self inflicted.

I think Irish medical staff are well paid.

The nurses disputes were money grabbing and with the Health Services for all the money that gets spent on it -nobody knows where its going.

In my adult life I have seen no improvement.

Irish Medical staff are reasonably enough paid. Most of the docs in A+E would be on a basic salary of about 40-42k per year. It's not exactly exorbitant, and it's not bringing the health service to it's knees.

There was no strike holding A+E to ransom for this, though!

Nurses also don't have exorbitant pay. I know a very senior nurse who earns about 50k a year for running an intensive care unit.

To deal with your other point, junkies ma have lifestyle inflicted illness, but it's illness nonetheless. Alcoholism, stroke, coronary artery disease etc can all be associated with lifestyle choices. Junkies usually come from very difficult backgrounds, and most of us try to deal with them compassionately (although they are the most difficult patients to deal with). We're not going to throw them out on their ear because they're unpopular.

CDfm

mehfesto2 wrote: »

+1. Blatant trolling.

Nurse who work three and a quarter 12 hour shifts a week -AT LEAST- and seven nights back to back, aswell asyoung doctors working on-call (sometimes 36hours back to back) deserve good pay. Especially when they're working to keep people in good health. Neither are easy jobs - both have crap working conditions and I couldn't do either job and remain sane. Fair play to them - they deserve more if you ask me.

Most people who work in ordinary jobs have crap working conditions and are not well paid.Are you suggesting other people dont work hard or have unsociable hours. Dairy farmers ,newspaper workers,electricity workers, petrol station workers, supermarket shelf stackers. There are loads of jobs with ****ty work hours done by people who pay taxes.

The recession means I work longer hours because of the recession.I dont have a fixed salary so I will have to work long long hours to earn the same or less then last year.

It doesnt seem we get value for money.

We are paid for work because it is inconvenient and hard.

Vorsprung

CDfm wrote: »

There problems were lifestyle and self inflicted.

Got any friends with weight problems who have diabetes? Or how about family members with cardiovascular disease or lung cancer who smoked?

If a person has a problem they get treated. How it came about is not an issue.

Ass

The VHI clinics are fantastic. Broke my arm on new years eve. In and out of the VHI swiftclinic up in dundrum in about an hour. Was told by the staff that there were 12 hour queues up at tallaght.